This is one of those things that I'm guessing Reds fans don't want to hear about.

Who knows how true that might have been, of course, but if it was true it's freaking hilarious. In a horrifying sort of way.

Just think... if the Yankees had traded for Wells... they never would have signed Kenny Rogers.

The headline raised my hopes to near records heights before they were dashed.

I skimmed the title and all I got was that the Orioles got Wells, which prompted a "Holy ####, the Jays were able to unload Wells!" Reality can be cruel.

Buster Olney, March 24, 1996:

It didn't take long, but the Cincinnati Reds are unhappy with center fielder Curtis Goodwin, acquired from the Orioles for left-hander David Wells. Goodwin is batting under .100, and he has shown a distinct inability to track fly balls. Goodwin opened camp as the front-runner to be the Reds' center fielder. Now there are rumblings in the organization that Cincinnati is ready to deal him.

Cincinnati Post, May 31, 1997

CHICAGO -- Reds manager Ray Knight has demanded that Curtis Goodwin begin taking extra bunting practice after his left fielder popped out on a sacrifice bunt attempt Thursday for the fourth time this season.

Goodwin's failure to get down the sacrifice bunt in the fifth inning kept the score tied at 1-1 and opened the door for the Chicago Cubs, who got a successful sacrifice from Brian McRae in the eighth inning to set up the game-winning, run-scoring hit by Brant Brown.

''With the way our ballclub is, it's imperative that our number two hitter be able to bunt the ball,'' Knight said.

New York Times, August 7, 1997:

CINCINNATI, Aug. 7— The Cincinnati Reds optioned outfielder Curtis Goodwin to the minor leagues today after he stormed out of the clubhouse, fuming over Manager Jack McKeon's suggestion that he needs to change his attitude.

Goodwin, in an 0-for-29 slump, was shaking with anger and swearing when he left McKeon's office, changed to his street clothes and left.

''He said he quit,'' said his teammate Jose Rijo.

New York Times, December 11, 1997:

COLORADO ROCKIES--Acquired OF Curtis Goodwin from Cincinnati for RHP Mark Hutton.

I just want to say, I have a friend who's a Reds fan. I don't mean any harm.

20/20 is hindsight, but #### YOU BOWDEN. #### YOU #### YOU #### YOU #### YOU! Without Rivera the Yankees dynasty would have never begun (okay, that might be stretching it, but it probably wouldn't have lasted as long).

I skimmed the title and all I got was that the Orioles got Wells, which prompted a "Holy ####, the Jays were able to unload Wells!" Reality can be cruel.

This Cubs fan had a similar moment when Soriano was traded to the Rays.

Just one more piece of evidence that God is on the Yanks' side.

Oh, and Gamingboy, peel us a grape.

Without Rivera the Yankees dynasty would have never begun (okay, that might be stretching it, but it probably wouldn't have lasted as long).

The Yankees would have still be a bohemoth of a team beginning in the late 90s, no doubt. But I do doubt that they would have won three in a row from 98-2000 and they would have been searching for pivotal players to replace those HOFish players every few years. But it's worth noting that hindsight notwithstanding, in 1995 Rivera was a set-up man for John Wetteland and Posada wasn't a name brand at all. Granted, Jim Bowden is and has always been a complete ####### idiot, but if this trade had happened we wouldn't have known how awesome it was, because Rivera would be on his fifth team and Posada would be out of baseball.

Because G*d really hates Cincinnati.

Man, I find this trade rumor from 14 years back far more interesting than any current hot stove rumblings. Is it too much to ask for a daily one of these little gems until the season starts?

Was there much talk of the Braves getting Bonds in '92? I know Schuerholz had it in his book, but was wondering what the rumours at the time were..

Because G*d really hates Cincinnati.

To be fair, so does anyone who's ever been there.

(I'm kidding, Cinncinnatians. It's a hell of a lot nicer than Syracuse.)

It's hard to find old newspaper stories that aren't behind a pay wall, isn't it?

I used to love scouring Lexis-Nexis late at night for stuff like this, but UMD doesn't subscribe to it.

It seems to me that the Yankees would have won everything they won between 1998-2000 with any top closer. They never had much of a struggle in those post-seasons. The 1996 post-season might have gone differently, though. (Of course, so might the 1997 post-season--one never knows . . .)

I'm kidding, Cinncinnatians. It's a hell of a lot nicer than Syracuse.

The mark of any great metropolis!

Murray Chass, in the NYT, 4 December 1992:

"The Yankees have made Greg Maddux, the National League's best pitcher last season, an astounding offer of slightly more than $34 million for five years, and [Gene] Michael plans to talk to Maddux's agent, Scott Boras, before next week's winter meetings in Louisville, KY.

. . . Given the way Dennis Gilbert, [Barry] Bonds's agent, operates, he will very likely give the Yankees another chance to sign Bonds, especially if Bonds would prefer playing for them over the two teams said to be the only ones seriously interested.

The official identified one team as the Boston Red Sox. He said the other team is in the National League but would not identify it. Executives of every National League clubs--all 14 were contacted in the past two days--said their club was not the one, thogh some have said they would love to have Bonds.

The official said Gilbert initially put Bonds's asking price at $7 million a year plus a $1 million signing bonus for a grand total of an unprecedented $50 million.

Lou Gorman, the Boston general manager, acknowledged that the Red Sox are interested in Bonds.

. . . The Atlanta Braves had been considered the team most likely to sign Bonds. But as it turns out, the Braves never made Bonds an offer and haven't even been in the pursuit. When Gilbert told them about a month ago what he wanted, they decided their interest was nonexistent."

Chass's article about the Bonds signing ran on 6 December, and again quotes Gorman, who Gilbert was apparently talking to at the 11th hour, but who wasn't willing to give six years (But, if one reads between the lines, may have been willing to give the money: "We never really got to the point of talking about dollars with them . . . it's a lot of money. You have to put a lot of people in the ballpark.")

Another irony not commented upon yet: the Orioles being the team described as the "the rich getting richer". That was before their decade-plus as the rich getting dumber.

My understanding (could be 100% wrong) was that there was no way in hell Bonds was going to sign with the Red Sox in 1992. I suppose they could have offered $10 million a year or something and blown the doors off and maybe that would have made a difference, but I've always heard Bonds hated hated hated Boston.

[13] Wait minute. UMD doesn't subscribe to Lexis-Nexis? How is that even possible.

Thanks for reminding me how utterly astonishing it was when Bonds became a Giant. It might be the most transformational acquisition by a franchise in the last fifty years or so.

Hey, they have it again! In 2006 or so, I could swear they dropped it for a while.

I don't recall ever having heard at the time that the Red Sox were in it for Bonds. I remember there being a lot of talk about the Yankees and Braves, and none about the Giants until maybe a few hours before the deal was done. (Of course, there was then the thing where it twisted in limbo for several days while the new ownership group waited for approval.)

I seem to recall, in fact, that on one of the NFL games just before the Giants signing, the broadcasters were discussing Bonds's trip to Atlanta and said he was about to buy a house there. I figured he was going there for sure until I heard otherwise.

Its a fun hypothetical. Bonds on the Braves would mean Maddux ends up on the Yankees. Would Bonds still head the steroids way if he was playing on a team which was heading to the WS every year?

I am guessing even without Mad Dog, the Braves would get there. Though I much prefer the way it played out in reality.

Atlanta Journal Constitution, 7 December 1992:

Louisville, Ky. - John Schuerholz had sought the services of Barry Bonds for lo these many months. The Braves' GM had come within an eyelash of trading for Bonds in March, had planned to make a serious run at the free agent this offseason. This was clearly a man Schuerholz wanted, and lately what Schuerholz has wanted, Schuerholz has gotten. Nobody in baseball would've been surprised if, at these winter meetings, the Braves had announced that Bonds was theirs.

Late Saturday night an announcement was made, startling everyone. Bonds would sign not with the Braves but with San Francisco, which wasn't even considered a player in the Great Bonds Chase. If losing Bonds wasn't necessarily a defeat for Schuerholz - at $ 43 million over six years, some would call the Giants the real losers - neither was it the envisioned masterstroke. At such a moment, how does a spurned suitor feel? A bit wistful?


"I'm not wistful at all," Schuerholz said Sunday. "I'm jaded."

Schuerholz was sitting in his narrow suite at the Galt House East. So far, his stay in the Derby City had gone less than swimmingly. The temperature outside was sub-freezing. The view from Schuerholz's window was of a power station. The hotel phones had been a horror. And now Bonds was gone.

A swell match, but money talks

and history is made:

The Braves needn't add much. One key guy might do it. Bonds would've been such a guy. Greg Maddux, now the prime target on Schuerholz's list, would be, too.

Of Maddux, Schuerholz said: "We're interested. I don't know if we'll be able to work it out. . . . I can't cross over the line from proper business sense to improper business sense."

Its a fun hypothetical. Bonds on the Braves would mean Maddux ends up on the Yankees.

And the Giants move to St. Petersburg.

10 December:

Maddux, who lives in Las Vegas, actually accepted just $ 500,000 more than the Cubs offered him last season. He was unavailable for comment, but his agent, Scott Boras, said, "Why did we turn down [the money]? What was our mindset? I think the Atlanta Braves were the reason. Greg wanted to have the chance to play for the world championship. The money was secondary to him achieving his true standing in baseball by competing in a World Series."

. . .

After the Yankees made an initial offer of $ 34 million early this week, it was reported that the Braves offered Maddux $ 31 million, a number that came out of the Boras camp. The figure turned out to be false as he continued to tell reporters that two other teams were making offers, but never would name them, continuing to try to jack up the Yankees' price.

Later in the article, it's claimed that Maddux told Boras to tell the Yankees (which he did) that he'd sign with them for $37 million, but the Yankees came back with $34 million plus a $9 million bonus, and Maddux changed his mind.

The figure turned out to be false as he continued to tell reporters that two other teams were making offers, but never would name them, continuing to try to jack up the Yankees' price.

Ahh Boras. Some things never change.

And the Giants move to St. Petersburg.

The A's get the Bay Area all to themselves..... Moneyball doesn't happen?

It still happens, but Sandy Alderson gets more of the credit he deserves, and the A's become more like the Red Sox are now than like the A's have been.

By the way, Vaux, thanks for the yeoman work on Lexis-Nexis. Made for an interesting segue.

The failed Cincinnati subway is one of my pet fascinations.

An amazing fact ... Curtis Goodwin amassed over 1100 PAs in the majors despite his 57 OPS+. That's not the worst since 1990 of those with 800+ PA (Donnie Sadler at 39!), but only 13 players were worse. The only active player worse is Jeff Mathis (56). Well, I suppose TPJ is active somewhere. TPS also appears on the list (he hit pretty well in the 80s though).

Looking at those up to an OPS+ of 65, there are 44 such players. At least 10 of them played for the Royals. I'd laugh but at least 9 have played for the Cubs. Bako and Neifi played for both.

If no Reds fan posts in this thread, then we can conclusively agree that there are no Reds fans.

I seem to recall, in fact, that on one of the NFL games just before the Giants signing, the broadcasters were discussing Bonds's trip to Atlanta and said he was about to buy a house there. I figured he was going there for sure until I heard otherwise.

Ironically, I have a clear memory of watching an NFL game in my dorm room when an announcer said the Giants were about to sign Bonds. I was the only one paying attention, and I ran out of the room yelling and jumping down the hallway. My friends thought I was insane, as they had no idea what had happened. Thanks, Peter McGowan. I'll happily buy you a beer next (first) time I see you.

As for other Barry to the Braves talks, I have very clear memories of a deal built around Ryan Klesko that may have been around 1995. The name Andres Torres always comes to mind, too, though it may have been simply that the Braves were hyping him as "Barry Bonds at shortstop."

As for other fun Yankees almost trades, how about the Will Clark for Don Mattingly challenge trade circa 1991 and the Darren Lewis for Bernie Williams trade that George wanted to make and someone (too early for Cashman, I assume) threatened to quit over. I think that was in 1994 or so. Man I was praying for that, only because I knew Darren Lewis was horrible, not because I could see Bernie's future...

I like to think in the alternate universe where Mariano Rivera gets traded to the Reds, Brien Taylor comes back from his bar fight to become a 20 game winner.

The failed Cincinnati subway is one of my pet fascinations.

And now there's just this, Charles (I have one of these):

Cincinnati Transit

If no Reds fan posts in this thread, then we can conclusively agree that there are no Reds fans.

The only two BTFers who I know are fulltime Reds fans are TDE and Harnisch SC, though the Redlegs and Pads share Robinred's fancy.

And the Mets...the Mets still suck.

Goodwin might have started for the Orioles next season, but his departure leaves them with a good outfield, nonetheless -- Bobby Bonilla in right, Brady Anderson in center, Jeffrey Hammonds in left.

At first I thought this meant Goodwin would have started over Anderson (in his 50 HR season) but I guess Bonilla would have moved to DH.

Without Rivera the Yankees dynasty would have never begun (okay, that might be stretching it, but it probably wouldn't have lasted as long).

Sure it would have. All they'd have done in response would have been to add "Buy best available closer" to their shopping list whenever they needed a new one.

Without Rivera the Yankees dynasty would have never begun (okay, that might be stretching it, but it probably wouldn't have lasted as long).

Sure it would have. All they'd have done in response would have been to add "Buy best available closer" to their shopping list whenever they needed a new one.

And that "best available closer" would have eventually been...Mariano Rivera. So it all comes full circle.

DB

An amazing fact ... Curtis Goodwin amassed over 1100 PAs in the majors despite his 57 OPS+. That's not the worst since 1990 of those with 800+ PA (Donnie Sadler at 39!), but only 13 players were worse. The only active player worse is Jeff Mathis (56). Well, I suppose TPJ is active somewhere. TPS also appears on the list (he hit pretty well in the 80s though).

The best part about it is that Goodwin was no flop; he did exactly as well as you'd expect from his minor league performance.

20/20 is hindsight, but #### YOU BOWDEN. #### YOU #### YOU #### YOU #### YOU! Without Rivera the Yankees dynasty would have never begun (okay, that might be stretching it, but it probably wouldn't have lasted as long).

Jeter certainly wouldn't have the iconic status that he has today without those two.

BTW, if Steinbrenner had been acting GM for all these years, does anybody doubt that the Yanks would have been in the second division more often than not?

BTW, if Steinbrenner had been acting GM for all these years, does anybody doubt that the Yanks would have been in the second division more often than not?

It is worth noting that the two significant World Series runs for the Yankees during the Steinbrenner Era (1976-1981; 1996-2003) both began after George had served a significant suspension. That is, from the outside looking in, it would appear that not having Steinbrenner involved in the day-to-day operations during those two moments in history allowed the Yankees front office to build a young nucleus around which championships could later be won.

DB

Reds fan here. This was posted in a different thread yesterday. There was a lot of gnashing of teeth. I was a bit sick to my stomach after reading it. You also have to remember that in 1992, the Reds were deciding between drafting a toolsy college outfielder and a high school shortstop from Kalamazoo. The Reds took the outfielder (Chad Mottola) and with the next pick, the Yankees took the shortstop, Derek Jeter. And, then this Reds fan remembers that the Reds traded Paul O'Neill to the Yankees for Roberto Kelly.

Really, I think Yankees fans everywhere owe a debt of gratitude to the Reds' front office incompetence. :-)

The only two BTFers who I know are fulltime Reds fans are TDE and Harnisch SC, though the Redlegs and Pads share Robinred's fancy.

Greg Tamer's a Reds fan, too.

I like the Roberto Kelly trade. It allowed the Braves to turn Deion Sanders into Roberto Kelly and then turn Kelly into Marquis Grissom. Grissom was the center fielder on the championship team, so even though he had a bad season that year, no complaints here.

Grissom was the center fielder on the championship team

...

...which I'm reminded of every time I open a beer with my Braves bottle opener.

People, you have to remember, Jim Bowden is full of #### and loves to talk.

Reds fan here. This was posted in a different thread yesterday. There was a lot of gnashing of teeth. I was a bit sick to my stomach after reading it. You also have to remember that in 1992, the Reds were deciding between drafting a toolsy college outfielder and a high school shortstop from Kalamazoo. The Reds took the outfielder (Chad Mottola) and with the next pick, the Yankees took the shortstop, Derek Jeter. And, then this Reds fan remembers that the Reds traded Paul O'Neill to the Yankees for Roberto Kelly.

Thing is, Bowden wasn't a bad GM back then; he just had an inexplicable fetish for centerfielders who were very fast but couldn't hit their way out of Rey Ordonez's mother's basement.

I was a Reds fan before I moved to Philly as a 10 year old, does that count? (That was 48 years ago but still...)

if this trade had happened we wouldn't have known how awesome it was, because Rivera would be on his fifth team and Posada would be out of baseball.

Because G*d really hates Cincinnati.

Right, the Reds would have tried to make Rivera a starter and Posada a third baseman. The problem isn't that God hates Cincinnati.