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Thursday, February 14, 2013

Newhan: Piazza’s Rap on Scully Doesn’t Ring True

In Chass-speak this is known as a pustale.

I bring all this up because of a claim by Mike Piazza in his new book, “Long Shot”, that Scully, in his broadcasts, turned fans against him during the catcher’s 1998 contract stalemate with the Dodgers that preceded his trade to the Florida Marlins in May of that year, a trade that arguably ranks with the trading of Pedro Martinez as the worst in L.A. Dodger history.

Given Scully’s view of his function and job it is difficult to accept Piazza’s interpretation, memory or insinuation that the broadcaster would have conducted a campaign against him.

Scully, in a Thursday story in The Times, denied all of that, said he could not recall the spring interview with Piazza, and “as God is my judge, I don’t get involved in these things. I can’t imagine I would ever put my toe in the water as far as a player and his negotiations. I have no idea where he is coming from…. I’m really flabbergasted.”

  It was a tumultuous period. Given the Pizza contract issue and the fact that Fox had only recently bought the club from Peter O’Malley, I was at the ballpark almost every night. I certainly did not hear all of Scully’s broadcast during this period.

  However, given his philosophy and approach to ongoing controversies of the Piazza type, and not recalling anyone telling me Piazza was taking a beating on the air, the book interpretation just doesn’t ring true.

Repoz Posted: February 14, 2013 at 02:03 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers

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   1. JJ1986 Posted: February 14, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4369656)
#### research. "Not recalling anyone telling me Piazza was taking a beating on the air" is good enough.
   2. phredbird Posted: February 14, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4369667)
i wasn't around for this, but it sure doesn't sound like scully to me ... but i also don't know why piazza would say something like this ... the whole thing is puzzling.
   3. The District Attorney Posted: February 14, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4369675)
Given the Pizza contract issue
"$105 million? That's unfair."
"Unfair to payor but not to payee. But you're gonna pay it, or else!"
"Or else what?"
"Tell him, Vin Scully."
"Or else Pizza is gonna send out for you!"
   4. puck Posted: February 14, 2013 at 03:49 PM (#4369778)
Was more than a minority of the Dodger fan base in favor of Piazza being traded? I would figure most would be disappointed he was sent packing.
   5. Nasty Nate Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4369811)
#### research. "Not recalling anyone telling me Piazza was taking a beating on the air" is good enough.


I understand your sentiment, but would it be really feasible to listen to 120+ hours of broadcast in hopes of confirming or disproving the claim?
   6. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4369815)

I understand your sentiment, but would it be really feasible to listen to 120+ hours of broadcast in hopes of confirming or disproving the claim?

Is it necessary given the relatively weak statement he makes in the column? No. But is it feasible? You could probably pay a few interns cheap overtime to do it. Heck, you could probably find a few folks on this site who would do it for free.
   7. Tripon Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4369817)
No, Piazza was the most famous and well liked Dodger. Fans would have given him anything to stay on the team.
   8. Good cripple hitter Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4369820)
Is it necessary given the relatively weak statement he makes in the column? No. But is it feasible? You could probably pay a few interns cheap overtime to do it. Heck, you could probably find a few folks on this site who would do it for free.


It's not even that hard. Piazza played 37 games for the Dodgers in 1998 before he was traded. If you just listened to what Scully said during his AB's, you'd probably get a sense if Piazza's memory is correct.

Plus you get to listen to Scully call the Dodgers. I'd do it if I had access to the broadcasts.
   9. TerpNats Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4369821)
From everything I know about Scully, I simply can't imagine him doing to Piazza what Marty Brenneman did to Adam Dunn in Cincinnati. It's just not Vin's style.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: February 14, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4369832)

It's not even that hard. Piazza played 37 games for the Dodgers in 1998 before he was traded. If you just listened to what Scully said during his AB's, you'd probably get a sense if Piazza's memory is correct.


Also spring training (if Scully did those games).
   11. Nasty Nate Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4369848)
But is it feasible? You could probably pay a few interns cheap overtime to do it. Heck, you could probably find a few folks on this site who would do it for free.


Would the audio even be available to listen to?
   12. Flynn Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4369862)
#### research. "Not recalling anyone telling me Piazza was taking a beating on the air" is good enough.


That's a fair comment, considering Piazza was watching KCAL while catching that year. Both guys are talking out of their ass.
   13. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4369864)
Would the audio even be available to listen to?
This. If audio of past Dodgers games was available, I think we all would know - because there would be many webpages, with clips, devoted to Vin's stories, anecdotes, trivia (""Uggla' is Swedish for 'owl.'") and, oh yeah, calls of actual baseball.
   14. JJ1986 Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4369868)
I understand your sentiment, but would it be really feasible to listen to 120+ hours of broadcast in hopes of confirming or disproving the claim?


He could at least ask people who watched the games, since it sounds like he didn't.
   15. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4369869)
From everything I know about Scully, I simply can't imagine him doing to Piazza what Marty Brenneman did to Adam Dunn in Cincinnati. It's just not Vin's style.
Again, this. I can't recall Vin ever ripping on a player about money.
   16. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:30 PM (#4369872)
Three times in his sensational career has Mike Piazza walked into the GM’s office to pitch a fateful contract demand. But tonight, May the thirteenth, nineteen hundred and ninety-eight, he made the toughest walk of his career, I'm sure, because the Los Angeles Dodgers have said they’re perfectly willing to turn him down. He has hit .362, he has driven in 124, and he is almost out of this situation. Fred Claire deals, and it’s for one year, $7 million. Strike out!

And you can almost taste the tension now. Fred Claire reaches back for something extra. He ran his fingers through his blond hair... that’s his own real blond hair, not Piazza’s. Claire goes into a full extension. Three years, $19 million, third year not guaranteed. It is 9:41 p.m. on May the thirteenth. Piazza is shaking Claire off. You can almost feel the air go out of the building as Piazza delivers the answer. Hell no.

The Dodgers defensively in this spine-tingling moment: Fred Claire and Tommy Lasorda. The boys who will try to stop it if things get out of hand: News Corp. And there’s twenty-nine thousand people in the ballpark with a million butterflies. They know what’s happening here. They know Tom Prince is the backup. They’re pulling in their hearts for the GM to say $30, $40 million dollars, but the experienced veteran Claire won’t go for it.

Mike Piazza is the best hitter in the league. He is just one signature away from a perfect career in Dodger blue.

Claire is giving him very little. He drags his toe along the lush carpeting. I would think that his upholstered chair is the stingiest place in the world right now. Piazza is a single concession away from the promised land. You can’t blame a man for pushing at a time like this. And now, Claire offers.

He is... gone! Piazza is out of here. It is 9:49 p.m. in the city of the angels, and these fans have seen a doozy of a move. Michael Joseph Piazza is headed east, the Dodgers are headed to third place, and that “P” in capital letters on his contract will stand out even more than the I-S-S-O-F-F.
   17. Nasty Nate Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4369875)
He could at least ask people who watched the games, since it sounds like he didn't.


He refers to Scully's own recent quotes about it. That seems to be pertinent.
   18. Nasty Nate Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:37 PM (#4369877)
Why was the Piazza to the Mets deal done in 2 steps? Why wasn't it just a 3-team trade that happened all at once?
   19. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:42 PM (#4369887)
1) Vin never tried to turn the fans against Piazza
2) The fans never turned against Piazza

I understand the need to move paper, but taking a shot at Vin is especially low.
   20. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4369891)
Why was the Piazza to the Mets deal done in 2 steps? Why wasn't it just a 3-team trade that happened all at once?

To make Piazza Marlin jerseys a collectors' item.
   21. zachtoma Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4369894)
Was more than a minority of the Dodger fan base in favor of Piazza being traded? I would figure most would be disappointed he was sent packing.


As an LA-area 11 year old, I remember it as a crushing blow.
   22. Walt Davis Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:51 PM (#4369896)
I can't recall Vin ever ripping on a player about money.

But Vin has never talked about you has he? What you might take as Vin ripping on Piazza and what Piazza might take as Vin ripping on Piazza (or what Piazza's friends listening took as ripping on Piazza then magnified when they told Piazza) might well be two different things.

(And "ripping on" is a bit of a prejudicial term in itself. "Critical of"? "Mentioned Piazza's contract status whenever Piazza was struggling"? "Took management's side"?)
   23. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4369903)
Walt, thanks for setting me straight.
   24. Into the Void Posted: February 14, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4369905)
(And "ripping on" is a bit of a prejudicial term in itself. "Critical of"? "Mentioned Piazza's contract status whenever Piazza was struggling"? "Took management's side"?)


Exactly. Especially since Piazza was obviously not listening to the broadcasts himself. Most likely a friend conveyed it to him in a hyperbolic way.
   25. Flynn Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4369914)
Gonfalon, nobody else might, but I recognize your genius.

You, sir, are a genius.
   26. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 14, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4369915)
Even more likely is that Piazza's agent told him that Vin was ripping him.
   27. Don Malcolm Posted: February 14, 2013 at 07:09 PM (#4369965)
But Vin has never talked about you has he? What you might take as Vin ripping on Piazza and what Piazza might take as Vin ripping on Piazza (or what Piazza's friends listening took as ripping on Piazza then magnified when they told Piazza) might well be two different things.

(And "ripping on" is a bit of a prejudicial term in itself. "Critical of"? "Mentioned Piazza's contract status whenever Piazza was struggling"? "Took management's side"?)


Well, Walt, Piazza (or his ghostwriter) make the claim that Scully was "crushing him." That's neither a precise nor an objective term, so we're forced to conclude that Piazza is at least somewhat interested in shifting the blame for what happened in 1998 onto someone other than himself. What was unmistakable, however, was the "who dropped the ton of bricks on me?" look that Piazza was wearing during his brief stay with the Fish that year.

I have never heard Scully criticize a player for anything other than on-field mistakes in the many, many decades I've been listening to him. Granted, I've not listened to every single game he's broadcast, but his approach today is by and large highly consistent with what I remember to be the case when I was a teenager.

Interestingly, Ross Newhan gets his facts garbled. Piazza did not go hitless in the first four games of the 1998 regular season. He had a hit in each of those games. He struggled in the very early going, hitting .172 over his first seven games, but he hit 4 HR and drove in 15 over the next seven games to get untracked. He hit .326, with 8 HR and 26 RBI in April 1998.
   28. phredbird Posted: February 14, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4369967)
16 FTW
   29. The District Attorney Posted: February 14, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4369978)
If audio of past Dodgers games was available, I think we all would know - because there would be many webpages, with clips, devoted to Vin's stories, anecdotes, trivia (""Uggla' is Swedish for 'owl.'") and, oh yeah, calls of actual baseball.
I was going to make this page, but I only had the implied oral consent of Major League Baseball.
   30. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 14, 2013 at 08:00 PM (#4369983)
Of course it doesn't ring true. White guys can't rap.
   31. Walt Davis Posted: February 14, 2013 at 09:59 PM (#4370054)
Well, Walt, Piazza (or his ghostwriter) make the claim that Scully was "crushing him." That's neither a precise nor an objective term

Agreed.

I have never heard Scully criticize a player for anything other than on-field mistakes

And if Scully was, justifiably or not, criticizing Piazza for on-field "mistakes" at the time, Piazza might view this in a more negative light than Scully intended it.

As we note all the time, it is common for bad/struggling teams to blame their best player. As we also note all the time, it is common for a team that has decided they will trade rather than extend a player to start to focus on his negatives in the press. I certainly understand the desire to defend Scully especially since Piazza provides no specifics (I gather). But, in the end, it's he said he heard.

None of us know Scully, none of us know Piazza. The "best case scenario" is somebody wastes a lot of time transcribing tapes, puts quotes out there and we pointlessly debate whether it does or doesn't sound like a slam -- which, even if we could agree, tells us nothing about how Scully may have meant it nor how Piazza heard it.

He hit .326, with 8 HR and 26 RBI in April 1998.

Followed by 204/214/259 with 1 HR for the Dodgers in May. Possibly this was a period when Vin was criticizing him for his on-field play. The Dodgers went 5-8 in this stretch of Piazza starts (hardly horrible). I note teams went 14 for 17 in steals (plus one pickoff CS) ... which is not much worse than regular Piazza although this did include speedsters like Javy Lopez, Ryan Klesko and Gregg Zaun. They gave up about 5 runs a game during this stretch.

May 9 would have been enough to try the patience of any announcer. Piazza was 0-4 with 1 K, 1 DP, 4 steals allowed (1 caught), 1 error.

   32. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: February 14, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4370080)
As opposed to Trevor Bauer's rap.
   33. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:26 AM (#4370106)
Gonfalon, nobody else might, but I recognize your genius.


I do. It just gets a little tiresome to call for a Primey after every one of his posts.
   34. Morty Causa Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:42 AM (#4370110)
Can you do Michael Caine doing Sean Connery, Gonfalon?

That was indeed excellent.
   35. DFA Posted: February 15, 2013 at 02:37 AM (#4370136)
Thanks Gonfalon! But why did Piazza and Claire's parents do for a living?
   36. Greg Franklin Posted: February 15, 2013 at 03:22 AM (#4370140)
Steve Dilbeck dug up the "crushing" interview, from KTLA in 1998.

Link (with video)
   37. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 15, 2013 at 03:45 AM (#4370145)
Aw, you're all so sweet.
   38. Flynn Posted: February 15, 2013 at 06:02 AM (#4370150)
Unrelated thought here: Has any MLB player come from a wealthier background than Piazza? His dad was the guy who tried to move the Giants to Tampa (really!) and has a fortune of over $100 million.
   39. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: February 15, 2013 at 09:10 AM (#4370173)
Re 16: golf clap.
   40. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: February 15, 2013 at 09:26 AM (#4370179)
Has any MLB player come from a wealthier background than Piazza?
Tony Gwynn Jr's dad is pretty wealthy. If Koby Clemens ever gets a cup of coffee in the bigs, he might be from a wealthier family than Piazza.
   41. depletion Posted: February 15, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4370180)
Nice call, Gonfalon.
   42. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4370217)
On the other hand, post 37 isn't funny at all. You're losing it!
   43. phredbird Posted: February 15, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4370237)
lotta pearl clutching in L.A. over this kerfuffle, i have to say. i was approached by a coworker yesterday who as far as i know barely follows baseball, and had a long conversation about it. the memory of piazza being dealt away is still pretty disturbing to a certain set of fans.

Steve Dilbeck dug up the "crushing" interview, from KTLA in 1998.

Link (with video)


very interesting. after studying the tape, i have to say this all came about because vin hurt his feelings by continually harping on piazzas low number of stolen bases. wotta bum. *rolls eyes*.
   44. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:03 PM (#4370256)
I just want to give kudos to post #3--that made my morning.
   45. HowardMegdal Posted: February 15, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4370282)
16. In an improbable thread, the impossible has been posted.
   46. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 15, 2013 at 02:58 PM (#4370338)
My vague recollection at the time was that the Dodgers were in an old fashioned, "we're struggling we're not sure what to do so lets shake things up and dump on our best player" mode. Nut I was on the East Coast and the Internet was in its infancy so I really don't know what the MSM was doing in LA.

I will say this, if a player is accustomed to praise and unconditional hero worship, the absence of praise/worship let alone criticism may seem like an attack.

Eddie Murray, back in around 1980-85, the MSM held Murray in unusually high regard, he was a great player, he was a great teammate, he was a feared hitters, he was a consummate pro looked up to by his teammates and adversaries alike. (Bill James touched on this in one of the early abstracts- something along the lines of what was with the Murray worship, Murray was not better than someone like Dale Murphy, but Murphy was still regarded as flesh and blood mortal who used the bathroom just like everyone else..)
But of course that didn't last, Murray as it turned out was VERY thin skinned and held grudges, at the slightest hint of criticism, that writer was permanently cut off, and later Murray would start telling younger players to shun reporters that Murray didn't like.
Well you know how reporters are, as far as they are concerned the worst human beings are those who don't talk to THEM, so the MSM depiction of Murray did a 180 turn...
   47. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: February 15, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4370391)
#16 is a great post because you can actually hear the Scully inflections as you read it.....
"it is (emphasis) 9:49 pm, in the (emphasis) city of the Angels...."
   48. Bob T Posted: February 15, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4370393)
Much of the criticism about Piazza in L.A., which wasn't much, came from print and sports talk radio. And those aren't nearly as much of a force in L.A. as in other parts.

Here is a story from the LA Times. No need to guess the author I think:
As Dodger fans stagger numbly today into a new era, part outraged, part inspired, mostly confused, peace can be found at the other end of a question.

Are you still about winning?

If so, then you will applaud the trade of Mike Piazza.

For the first time since the free agent-bloated Dodger squad stumbled in the final days of 1991, your team is bold again.

Your team is willing to risk public wrath for a shot at championships again.

This was something Branch Rickey would have tried, something Kirk Gibson would have loved.

Given the generous offer of the disgraceful Florida Marlins, fans shouldn't be wondering how the Dodgers could trade their best and most popular player.


These were back to back letters to the Times Sports section on April 18, 1998:

The problem with Mike Piazza is that he has blown an opportunity that not too many sports stars ever get--the chance to command real respect and admiration from fans. Whether Piazza gets $84 million or $100 million over the next seven years really shouldn't matter; he is set for life either way.

There are players, like Tony Gwynn and a handful of others, who realize that they make so much money that they can afford to reward their fans and their team with some loyalty. Whether the working stiff making $3,000 a month would demand $3,500 from his employer if he could get it is irrelevant. Mike Piazza could have been one of those few principled guys who remembered how the strike of 1994 and the greed of both the players and owners turned so many fans away from the game.

He could have told his fans he didn't really have the ego to be the highest-paid player in the game (even if only for a few days). Mike Piazza could have brought fans back to the game. Instead, he has turned out to be just another rich athlete out only for himself, no matter the cost.


If Mike Piazza is confused about how to manage his career, perhaps he should take a look at how Mark McGwire handles his. McGwire could have gone anywhere as a free agent and made triple the money (the kind of money Piazza wants), but his decision to stay in St. Louis was fueled by his love of the game and of the fans, not by greed.

Mark McGwire inspires me to want to do good things and to work hard to accomplish something, while Mike Piazza inspires me to want to sit home as a couch potato whining about my salary, hoping one day to win the lottery.
   49. The District Attorney Posted: February 15, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4370398)
Mark McGwire inspires me to want to do good things and to work hard to accomplish something
Mark McGwire inspires me to want to do good things and to work hard to accomplish something
Mark McGwire inspires me to want to do good things and to work hard to accomplish something
   50. phredbird Posted: February 15, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4370411)
that first quote has got to be plaschke, right? what a tool.
   51. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: February 15, 2013 at 06:30 PM (#4370447)
Gonfalon is the Vin Scully of BBTF posters.
   52. bunyon Posted: February 15, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4370453)
I think Gonfalon may, in fact, BE Vin Scully.
   53. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 15, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4370458)
Are you still about winning?

If so, then you will applaud the trade of Mike Piazza.


If nothing else- The Dodgers trade of Piazza was not a "dump trade" by the Dodgers
The Dodgers got back:
Gary Sheffield... borderline HOF talent
Charles Johnson (Kind of his generation's Matt Wieters- he was SUPPOSED to be a super star catcher)- inconsistent but was coming off a 4.2 WAR year (faceplanted for the Dodgers, but later had some decent years with Baltimore)
Bobby Bo (hey talk about longevity, he's still drawing an MLB salary!)
   54. Bob T Posted: February 15, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4370505)
What about Jim Eisenreich, the Dodger Killer?

He took that moniker literally.

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