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Saturday, September 30, 2006

Newsday: Sure sign that Mets are tired of Milledge’s antics

Treading on thin ice with the ever splendid Lastings...

KNOW YOUR PLACE, ROOK!

The hand-scrawled message hung above Lastings Milledge’s locker after Friday’s 4-3 victory over the Nationals. At the bottom of the two sheets of paper was written, “Your Teammates.”

...The reason? According to one person familiar with the situation, Milledge - whose reputation is deteriorating quickly - mouthed off to a veteran teammate in Atlanta. Friday’s rebuke followed. Apparently, his teammates are becoming more and more annoyed by Milledge’s attitude.

“How much does it take to finally wake up?” the person said. “How long before you realize the way you’re acting is the opposite of how you should be acting? Fine. Stay asleep, then.”

 

 

Repoz Posted: September 30, 2006 at 11:50 AM | 186 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets

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   1. Roadblock Jones Posted: September 30, 2006 at 12:29 PM (#2192192)
I think they're gonna hafta trade him to Kansas City for Bret Saberhagen and Bill Pecota.
   2. Banta Posted: September 30, 2006 at 12:45 PM (#2192195)
I've always had a feeling the Mets were gonna end up trading him and this just backs that up more.

Obviously, we all have incomplete information, but everything I read about Milledge and from watching him blow off Willie a few times in the dugout, the kid seems like a punk. So... Milledge and a couple crappy prospects to Florida for Willis?
   3. Banta Posted: September 30, 2006 at 12:48 PM (#2192196)
Also, who wants to bet that the unnamed person was LoDuca?
   4. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 12:59 PM (#2192201)
Milledge appears to have some problems, certainly, and I understand the whole idea of the "new guy" watching and learning.

Still, "KNOW YOUR PLACE, ROOK" is kind of a jackoff statement.
   5. Raskolnikov Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:07 PM (#2192204)
The first thing Willie needs to do is find out the person(s) who wrote the note and took the clothes.

Then they need to trade that ####### for a bag of Doritos or put him on unconditional waivers.
   6. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:19 PM (#2192210)
The other thing ,of course, is that regardless of whatever crap Milledge is pulling, this is not the way to deal with it. A couple of vets need to pull him aside and try to talk to him. If that has been done to no avail, then it is Randolph's responsibility (it is anyway, but players should try to help with this stuff, too). A note like this is just chickenshit and stupid.
   7. schuey Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:24 PM (#2192211)
This would not have happened on the Yankees with the veteran leadership Derek Jeter provides.
   8. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:26 PM (#2192212)
"Still, "KNOW YOUR PLACE, ROOK" is kind of a jackoff statement."

Agreed, and downright cowardly if it really is an unidentified player. I just don't see this as a productive way to:

- address the situation
- encourage team unity
- head into the playoffs

Good luck, New York.
   9. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:27 PM (#2192213)
I think they're gonna hafta trade him to Kansas City for Bret Saberhagen and Bill Pecota.

Context is everything. If this were the mid/late 80s Mets, I'd give Milledge the massive benefit of the doubt. Those vipers treated Jefferies like crap, and deserved a lot of the blame for that situation. Not all; Jefferies was a piece of work, too. But a lot.

But this isn't that Mets' clubhouse. If Milledge was making the least effort to have a decent attitude and be a professonal, he'd be in absolutely the ideal place to grow and learn. I have no doubt of that at all. If that's not happening, I have no doubt where I place the blame: on Lastings Milledge's shoulders.

And while I share Rasky's view that the clothes and the note aren't the way to handle it, I'm also willing to bet it's not the first (or even the fifth) thing that's been tried. Milledge is going to have to decide what kind of a teammate he wants to be. It's only his future that rides on the decision, after all.
   10. Kurt Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:31 PM (#2192217)
#7 sure was funny and all, but when *was* the last time somrthing like this happened with the Yankees?
   11. The Original SJ Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:37 PM (#2192219)
#7 sure was funny and all, but when *was* the last time somrthing like this happened with the Yankees?

See last week's SI cover story.
   12. Roadblock Jones Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:38 PM (#2192221)
#7 sure was funny and all, but when *was* the last time somrthing like this happened with the Yankees?


Were it the Yankees, they'd simply trash the guy in a national magazine, not semi-privately.
   13. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:39 PM (#2192222)
If Milledge was making the least effort to have a decent attitude and be a professonal, he'd be in absolutely the ideal place to grow and learn. I have no doubt of that at all.

I've heard you know some people who actually work for the Mets, so you know a lot more about the Mets' clubhouse than I do. But if the Mets' clubhouse were "the ideal place to grow and learn" no note would have been left at all.
   14. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:39 PM (#2192223)
Milledge shouldn't have stolen Jeter's glove.

Hehe. The Mets could've had Zito or Willis mid-season for Milledge. In the offseason, they'll end up with Glendon Rusch...
   15. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:44 PM (#2192225)
Hehe. The Mets could've had Zito or Willis mid-season for Milledge. In the offseason, they'll end up with Glendon Rusch...

Don't be assuming this is the final chapter, Levski. There have been many rocky beginnings to stories that end up as great and long love affairs. Milledge may learn some lessons, figure some things out, and get it right next spring. Whatever mistakes he's made, there are leaders in the Mets' clubhouse who have made doozies of their own at earlier points in their careers, and been forgiven. Those guys won't forget that, and will let Milledge earn their respect.

It's up to Milledge. He's young, and may just grow up.

You . . . you, we're not so sure about! ;-)
   16. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:45 PM (#2192228)
From the article:

Milledge, as usual, ate dinner alone seated at his locker, facing inward, as the rest of the Mets crowded the clubhouse cafeteria. Someone had hidden Milledge's street clothes, and one player thought they had been replaced by a dress.

The reason? According to one person familiar with the situation, Milledge - whose reputation is deteriorating quickly - mouthed off to a veteran teammate in Atlanta. Friday's rebuke followed. Apparently, his teammates are becoming more and more annoyed by Milledge's attitude.

"How much does it take to finally wake up?" the person said. "How long before you realize the way you're acting is the opposite of how you should be acting? Fine. Stay asleep, then."

Milledge shrugged when reporters asked him about the sign. When the questions continued, Orlando Hernandez waved them away in an effort to protect the rookie outfielder.

Manager Willie Randolph later came out to talk to Milledge, and the rookie eventually got his clothes back. As for his attitude, that remains an unresolved issue.


A couple of points:

1. You would need to know the context of "mouthed off" to judge to what extent--or if--Milledge was out of line.
2. how you should be acting? Well, people act differently. Depends on what the young guy is actually doing, or not doing.
   17. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:51 PM (#2192233)
Whatever mistakes he's made, there are leaders in the Mets' clubhouse who have made doozies of their own at earlier points in their careers, and been forgiven.


Tell that to Scott Kazmir.

I like Milledge, I really do. He may not have the brightest ceiling of any player in the minors, the way a Mets fan boy claimed recently, but he'll be a good player. He just needs to get out of New York. Btw, he's looking like the second coming of Jose Guillen...
   18. The Original SJ Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:05 PM (#2192241)
Does this sound like the Gregg Jeffries situation to anyone else?
   19. schuey Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:21 PM (#2192244)
Is that lineup card that Randy Myers wrote "We are not trying to win this game" available on Ebay?
   20. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:25 PM (#2192246)
Does this sound like the Gregg Jeffries situation to anyone else?

Well, Sam already gave us his informed opinion about that, and he knows a lot about the Mets. I am always a little suspicious, though, of the word "attitude." That often is code for "I don't like the guy because he doesn't act the way I think people should act" or "This guy doesn't like to talk to the media and doesn't suck up to the players who do."

If Milledge is not hustling and working--and apparently sometimes that has been the case--or if Milledge is going around starting trouble by insulting people, or he is defying/disresepcting Randolph, well, OK. If he is just eating alone, keeping to himself, and not kissing LoDuca's ass enough, that's different.
   21. Rich Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:42 PM (#2192253)
The player(s) who went public with this are equally culpable.
   22. Rich Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:46 PM (#2192255)
The Mets could've had Zito or Willis mid-season for Milledge

The Mets could not have had Willis for Milledge straight up. Pelfrey would have had to have been included, if not more.
   23. The Original SJ Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:54 PM (#2192258)
Milledge shrugged when reporters asked him about the sign. When the questions continued, Orlando Hernandez waved them away in an effort to protect the rookie outfielder.

With each passing day, I love El dugue more and more.
   24. Grumbledook Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:58 PM (#2192262)
Remember the story about the players stealing Jeff Kent's clothes and leaving behind a pimp's outfit? He refused to put it on and the Mets almost missed their plane because he wouldn't put it on. Eventually, Jeff Torborg made the team give back Kent's clothes.

Maybe it's just me, but the need to build team camaraderie notwithstanding, I find such hazing rituals to be idiotic.
   25. Darren Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:02 PM (#2192263)
Does this sound like the Gregg Jeffries situation to anyone else?

Well, maybe to the people who already mentioned Jeffries. You're losing your edge, dude.
   26. The Original SJ Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:04 PM (#2192264)
It the age Darren, its the age. I am just a shadow of my former self (like Mike Stanton)
   27. Old Matt Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:07 PM (#2192266)
I think this could easily be a joke taken out of context.
   28. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:37 PM (#2192276)
. In the offseason, they'll end up with Glendon Rusch...


Or Brandon Webb. Genius Josh can't resist those tantalizing prospects.
   29. Kyle S Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:40 PM (#2192281)
Hazing rituals are idiotic, but they do a very good job of helping young players bond with their teammates, especially with their fellow rookies. I'm worried about Milledge. The Mets clubhouse has seemingly gotten along very well all year, so something like this indicates (to me at least) that Milledge has a serious attitude problem. Unless the Mets are very different from most teams/fraternities, I am certain that Milledge has been approached 1 on 1 from a veteran/team leader type before, and probably multiple times before. Sometimes, this just plain doesn't work, and drastic measures are needed. We tried everything with one of our pledges to help him fit in and get along with his pledge class, but in the end we had to kick him out because we just couldn't get through to him.
   30. schuey Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:46 PM (#2192286)
Even Gregg Jeffries told Kent to put on the pimp clothes on "The Worst Team Money Could Buy". But Kent said he had already done that earlier in the year on Toronto who were going to the World Series without him.

Speaking of "Worst Team" didn't Bob Klapisch have a note earlier saying the reason Melky Cabrera was better than Milledge in 2006 was "people who know both say Cabrera works harder to improve."??

Perhaps LoDuca's 19 year old mistress has a sister in high school she can set Milledge up and end this feud.

New York baseball 15 years ago: Jeffries, Kent, Bonilla, Coleman in Queens. Hall, Polonia, Howe and Kelly in the Bronx.
   31. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2006 at 04:47 PM (#2192329)
it is when i read stuff like this i just think that i dont get how us females can possibly ever understand yall males

can someone here please try to explain how making a young guy wear a dress in public when everyone else laughing at him make him a better man or increase his confidence. ballplayers talk ALL the time about confidence and if you got teammates who think it is the right thing to put you down all the time how you supposed to get confidence to play in the ML?

how can a guy not know "the right way to play" by the time he gets called up? that just mean kiss veteran butt? its not like he never played on a baseball team before he KNOW what a team is, he KNOW how to play baseball.

can anyone explain why hazing is a good thing - or abusing/humiliating younger newer guys helps them grow up or develop the right attitude? how do this make someone a "team player" - besides him knowing if he eat shtt right now he get to make next years rook eat shtt. how do being abused and humiliated make you WANT to be a member of a team like that? how do this make a new guy "fit in"

i dont know - maybe all this bullying/veteran/rookie stuff is why yall males make teams with "leadership" whatever the fckk that is

us grrrrls just dont do that - i mean if a younger grrrl makes the basketball team we don't be making her go out wearing a fake beard and a strap on or something (macho macho mannnn...) and trust me that is a LOT funnier than some guy in drag

we don't be letting the bigger older kids beat up and abuse the smaller younger kids - we think that is bad. i dont see even dads be doing that (well, most all dads)

so why is it a good thing when you are grown man?
   32. AJMcCringleberry Posted: September 30, 2006 at 05:11 PM (#2192359)
mouthed off to a veteran teammate in Atlanta.

If that veteran was Lo Duca he probably deserved it, good for Milledge.
   33. Jake Taylor Posted: September 30, 2006 at 05:29 PM (#2192391)
The Mets could've had Zito or Willis mid-season for Milledge

The Mets could not have had Willis for Milledge straight up. Pelfrey would have had to have been included, if not more.


Agreed, it would've taken way more than Milledge even mid-season when his stock was highest. And even then, did the Marlins even really show much interest in Milledge last offseason. You'd figure if they had really wanted him, between the Delgado/Lo Duca deals, they could have gotten him somehow.
   34. CrosbyBird Posted: September 30, 2006 at 05:55 PM (#2192418)
so why is it a good thing when you are grown man?

I know the justification even if I don't personally agree with it.

The idea is that there's a certain hierarchy that is good for the game: veterans deserve more respect by nature of their position, and when you don't show that proper respect, there are consequences. The same attitude that has a guy mouthing off to a veteran is the one that makes him blow off the veteran's constructive criticism. Also, if this is the way the guy behaves when he's proven nothing and is the new guy, what kind of insufferable bastard is he going to be when he's actually established?

We don't know the full story. If someone said "carry my bags, rook" and Millege mouthed off that's one thing. If the guy said "don't showboat, because I don't want the next pitcher to throw at me" or "turn down that music, the manager's talking" it's a totally different situation.

can someone here please try to explain how making a young guy wear a dress in public when everyone else laughing at him make him a better man or increase his confidence.

I think wearing a dress and chuckling along with the people laughing makes you a better person for not taking things that seriously. If I was Milledge's position, I might have put on the dress and asked one of the other players if I looked sexy. That's the ultimate in confidence... wearing a dress doesn't make me less of a man... it makes me more of a man to have the confidence not to feel like it means a thing.
   35. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:08 PM (#2192433)
Milledge did the dress thing earlier in the year exactly the way Crosbybird describes. They were in Toronto, and he vamped it up to the hilt. I don't think that was an issue at all, per se. The dynamics here, I believe, are that there have been mounting tensions over Milledge's not conducting himself the way Randolph expects all the players to conduct themselves, and then not listening when some of the respected veteran players try to talk to him about it quietly. That is why it was then done in the very loud -- and immature and hazing-style -- way it was done. Now, the underlying behavior by Milledge is really all that bad, we really don't know, but there is just no doubt in my mind it was bothering a significant number of his teammates, and that he was not listening to the advice of teammates. That is troublesome.

The fact that this happened does not mean the door is closed to fix the problem, though. El Duque's reaction proves that; there are still players in that clubhouse who want to reach out and protect Milledge, make him feel a part of the team, and work it out. As long as that is true, I remain hopeful.
   36. Grumbledook Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:12 PM (#2192442)
Even Gregg Jeffries told Kent to put on the pimp clothes on "The Worst Team Money Could Buy". But Kent said he had already done that earlier in the year on Toronto who were going to the World Series without him.

Speaking of "Worst Team" didn't Bob Klapisch have a note earlier saying the reason Melky Cabrera was better than Milledge in 2006 was "people who know both say Cabrera works harder to improve."??

Perhaps LoDuca's 19 year old mistress has a sister in high school she can set Milledge up and end this feud.

New York baseball 15 years ago: Jeffries, Kent, Bonilla, Coleman in Queens. Hall, Polonia, Howe and Kelly in the Bronx.


I find it hard to take Klapisch seriously. This is the same man who thought the Mets made a fatal mistake in letting Ray Knight depart via free agency and trading away Kevin Mitchell. He also said that the reporters covering the Mets thought the 1992 Mets stunk, but he picked them to win the NL East anyway; in reality it is not difficult to predict that a team featuring Vince Coleman, who already had a substandard 1991 season for the Mets, an aging Eddie Murray, a Willie Randolph in the twilight of his career, a Dave Magadan playing out of position, a Howard Johnson playing out of position (I'll grant that his falling off the cliff was unforseen) would not do very well.

While I risk veering towards anal retentiveness, I also note that Gregg Jefferies could not have told Kent to put on the pimp clothes because Jefferies had been traded to the Royals in 1991 for Bret Saberhagen. I think the Jefferies mention said something like, "even Jefferies had worn the pimp clothes" to indicate that even a supposed clubhouse cancer like Jefferies would do it for the sake of team unity. [Jefferies did eventually have a solid major league career, although he never really met expectations - I think he was a Baseball America Minor League Player of the Year 2 years running.] The interesting thing about the Kent incident, at least to me, was that it was the byproduct of one of the few good moves that the Mets made that year. They traded one month of David Cone, who they weren't going to re-sign anyway, for Jeff Kent, a borderline future HOFer. Too bad they screwed it up by trading Kent for Carlos Baerga.
   37. Morph Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:17 PM (#2192448)
I think his ceiling is Shannon Stewart. All the similarities are there, right down to the horrendous fielding. He has a much better arm than Stewart, Shannon has a much better approach at the plate.

The Mets need to trade this guy. I always thought it pure idiocy that they held him back in the Zito negotiations. WHY? Outfield prospects are a dime a dozen. What's the quota on ace pitchers? What's the price of going for it with a veteran team?
   38. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:19 PM (#2192452)

Or Brandon Webb. Genius Josh can't resist those tantalizing prospects.


I think Josh got all the prospects he wanted for Shawn Green, silver slugger and gold glover.

Back in the days, when I predicted El Duque and Shawn Green would end up with the Mets, no one listened. Mets fans screamed. Now, they mostly whine. And hide under rocks.

At least El Duque has pitched decently well with the Mets. Which is excellent news for him; watch Minaya give him the Kris Benson special 3 year extension.
   39. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:26 PM (#2192460)
Back in the days, when I predicted El Duque and Shawn Green would end up with the Mets, no one listened.

That's because you predicted it would be for Lastings Milledge and Mike Pelfrey, respectively, rather than for $1.97 and an 8-track tape of Greetings From Asbury Park.

Which is excellent news for him; watch Minaya give him the Kris Benson special 3 year extension.

What happened to that promise of no more shots at Minaya, Levski?

Now, they mostly whine. And hide under rocks.

Actually, no. We mostly buy beer, soda, chips, and pretzels. I believe it's called stocking up for the post-season. You might have forgotten; it's been a while.
   40. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:27 PM (#2192463)
So, levski, if you had to choose between baiting Mets fans exclusively, or Red Sox fans exclusively, who would you go with, and why?
   41. Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 06:58 PM (#2192516)
Most of the responses on this thread reveal a shocking incomprehension of day-to-day clubhouse culture - save for the precise exculpatory digresions into frat-anthropology. The next time someone on the inside publicly mocks sabermetrics, it is because he read threads like this and knows you do not know his world.
   42. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:01 PM (#2192521)
Most of the responses on this thread reveal a shocking incomprehension of day-to-day clubhouse culture -

Ok, fill us in. What is it like day-to-day in a typical MLB clubhouse, what is it like day-to-day in the Mets clubhouse, and what should be done with Lastings Milledge?
   43. Zac Schmitt Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:26 PM (#2192554)
Still, "KNOW YOUR PLACE, ROOK" is kind of a jackoff statement.

i can't help but imagine lo duca or whomever else put the sign up pretending to get a headshot in on milledge and walking away while saying "f'ing n00b, lolz".

needless to say, i think it's retarded.

but to the mets i can only say that my name's paul, and it's between ya'all.
   44. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:30 PM (#2192557)
Jesus Christ, baseball chick, reading your posts gives me a headache. Would you please have somebody else write them from now on?
   45. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:30 PM (#2192559)
Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 02:58 PM (#2192516)

Most of the responses on this thread reveal a shocking incomprehension of day-to-day clubhouse culture - save for the precise exculpatory digresions into frat-anthropology


- DUH

i SPECIFICALLY asked about that so as i could try to understand and i sure as heck dont see YOU even giving ONE freaking sentence to try to explain

so quit tellin me what i already said - and help me get some comprehension of "clubhouse culture"
   46. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:35 PM (#2192563)
Base, You haven't threatened anyone with a lawsuit in a while, why don't you sue b-chick for poor spelling? Better yet, why don't you stop reading her posts?

That's because you predicted it would be for Lastings Milledge and Mike Pelfrey, respectively, rather than for $1.97 and an 8-track tape of Greetings From Asbury Park.


That's actually not true, Sam. I just predicted Omar wouldn't resist the temptation to get his hands on a proven cigar roller and silver slugger with a gold glove. I never said it would be Milledge and Pelfrey... mind you, right now Milledge couldn't even get you a Shawn Green type.

Actually, no. We mostly buy beer, soda, chips, and pretzels. I believe it's called stocking up for the post-season.


Good for you, Sam. Enjoy. Just make sure not to overstock; you'd hate to have tons of leftovers should the Mets crap out in the divisional series...
   47. ian Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:35 PM (#2192565)
Most of the responses on this thread reveal a shocking incomprehension of day-to-day clubhouse culture - save for the precise exculpatory digresions into frat-anthropology. The next time someone on the inside publicly mocks sabermetrics, it is because he read threads like this and knows you do not know his world.

Tell us about the day-to-day clubhouse culture.
   48. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:36 PM (#2192567)
levski



can you please help he help poor ol rob base - he don't understand me

i really don't know how to make it dumber so as he can understand
   49. Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:37 PM (#2192569)
The fact that the Mets' players are doing this probably underscores the franchise's commitment to keeping Milledge around - it appears to me to be an act of desperate HOPE that something will wake him up. The treatment may be harsh, but it is not unique.

If they were going to trade him in the offseason, it would be flat-out ostracizing techniques - How about giving him the address of a club "where everyone is meeting up after the game" and nobody is there, or it is a gay bar across town from where everybody is at, or it doesn't exist. How about having a players' wives and kids outing and not inviting the offending player's girlfriend/wife/kids? A classic way to send the message: "F-You, adios..."

The veterans rub it in and lord it over - Frankie Rodriguez had been the deciding factor in the '02 World Series, budding star, fan favorite, but he was the low man on the rookie totem pole. Who carried the equipment bags from dugout to bullpen before each game for 90% of the 2003 season? K-Rod did.

There is a flipside too - Roger Clemens' refurbishing of the clubhouses of the minor league temas on which he was rehabbing into shape, a big name acquisition trades a Rolex to a role-player for his uniform number - Veteran honey works as good or better than veteran vinegar, but the latter sells papers.
   50. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:38 PM (#2192574)

I think Josh got all the prospects he wanted for Shawn Green, silver slugger and gold glover.

Back in the days, when I predicted El Duque and Shawn Green would end up with the Mets, no one listened. Mets fans screamed. Now, they mostly whine. And hide under rocks.

At least El Duque has pitched decently well with the Mets. Which is excellent news for him; watch Minaya give him the Kris Benson special 3 year extension.


That's funny, because the Mets robbed the diamondbacks in the Duque trade. You didn't predict that the mets would get El Duque. You predicted that they would trade Lastings Milledge for El Duque. Well, congratulations, Genius Josh, you are now the proud owner of of Jorge Julio!!! How's he adapting back to that closer role, anyway?

This is the same El Duque, by the way, that will be starting game one of the NLDS for the 95+ win Mets. Who's going to start game one the next time Genius Josh steers the d-bags into the playoffs? Evan Maclane? Nuff said about the Green trade.

Oh, and speaking of the brothers Hernandez, how is that trade for staff-ace Livan working out? He's got that rubber arm, so he should be good to go for game one ... of the 2007 season opener for the Diamondbacks.

After Brandon Webb is a Met.

Have a nice postseason.
   51. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:41 PM (#2192575)

i really don't know how to make it dumber so as he can understand


i really don't know how you could make it dumber either. i guess i'll just have to ignore your retard posts.
   52. Kyle S Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:43 PM (#2192578)
save for the precise exculpatory digresions into frat-anthropology

I guess that applies to me. I'm sorry my comments didn't meet your expectations. I've never been on a professional sports team, and my high school teams had much different dynamics from how I perceive higher-level organized baseball teams work.

Anyway, I think you make a good point, but you really act like a prick while you're doing it. It's very, very hard for those on the outside to know exactly what's going on inside a big league clubhouse. Of couse, it's no fun to throw up our hands and say "we can't figure it out", so people like to speculate. If you think their speculation is off base, you'd probably do better job convincing them if you didn't first ridicule them.
   53. dlf Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:45 PM (#2192580)
Speaking of ballplayers dressing in drag ... Pat Neshek's blog had a funny little write up with pictures when the Twins rookies were being hazed. Scroll down to 9/15 entry: blog. I've been enjoying Pat's writeups about a minor leaguer called up and pitching well in the pennant chase. He seems to be having a blast.
   54. Daryn Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:46 PM (#2192581)
First of all, having Shannon Stewart as an upside is not a bad thing. Shannon was super for a few years -- close to the track that Carl Crawford is on now. Second, Jefferies' name is spelled Jefferies, not Jeffries. This is important to some people.
   55. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:48 PM (#2192584)
I just predicted Omar wouldn't resist the temptation to get his hands on a proven cigar roller

Is this a reference to hispanic people? I just want to clarify what you mean by "cigar roller." Thanks in advance.
   56. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:50 PM (#2192586)
Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 03:37 PM (#2192569)

The veterans rub it in and lord it over

WHY?

- Frankie Rodriguez had been the deciding factor in the '02 World Series, budding star, fan favorite, but he was the low man on the rookie totem pole. Who carried the equipment bags from dugout to bullpen before each game for 90% of the 2003 season? K-Rod did.

- ok lets say this is a fact
what is the purpose of treating him like this? you can't say "he don't know how to play the game"
besides teaching him how to abuse guys younger than him, exactly WHAT GOOD DOES THIS DO???

- seeing as how YOU know how it is to be on a professional sports team, please explain and stop complaining we don't know
   57. Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:53 PM (#2192589)
KYLE S - i was lauding your contributions to this thread not criticizing them.

Angel Rookies in Drag

Jered Weaver will get more ROY votes if these pics are widely disseminated.
   58. Morph Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:55 PM (#2192593)
Oh yeah, of course Shannon Stewart is a quality player. I'm just saying I would have traded Milledge for Zito any day of the week.
   59. Daryn Posted: September 30, 2006 at 07:59 PM (#2192601)
I would have traded Milledge for Zito any day of the week.

Me too -- and I think they probably would've too if they didn't have such a big lead at the time.
   60. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:02 PM (#2192603)
If I am reading HF correctly, he seems to be saying that we don't know how much rookie-hazing is ingrained into "day-to-day clubhouse culture" and that there is an entire culture of rookies "knowing their place" and accepting it in a good-natured way which is demanded of them.

So, the "ROOK" sign was just standard, accepted behavior in that culture given Milledge's issue, and those of us, like me, who criticized it, demonstrated our own ignorance by so doing. I am still unclear as to what that has to do with "sabermetrics." He is also saying that this sequence of events does not, as a couple of people implied, suggest that Milledge will get traded; in fact, it indicates the Mets really want to keep him.

This all may be true. I played HS sports but only intramurals after that. I am curious as to how Halofan got this knowledge.

WHAT GOOD DOES THIS DO???

Well, I think it is supposed to build team unity and is part of how the newbies "win respect." Also, the idea of the "ordeal" as a rite of passage and manhood goes back centuries, in many cultures and contexts, and hazing rituals are sort of a modern, no-physical-danger version of that.
   61. Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2192607)
baseball chick:
I didn't complain that you didn't know, I just pointed out that people with a familiarity of one side of things are often obtuse to the other ways of looking at them. This point is often aired on the internet as the baseball analyst's frustration over TEAM X not fielding the best possible team - statistically speaking - and rarely do we hear from the locker room, where clubhouse culture looks at interpersonal realtionships as a contributing - if not downright outweighing - factor in the day-to-day composition of the team.

There was a sliver of irony in seeing so many posts from people who would know the nuances of statistical hierarchies completely lost when it came to hierarchies within group dynamics.

So when a statistical analyst complains that "TEAM X" should be starting "BETTER PLAYER" someone on the inside might point out that it would be impossible as the clubhouse would revolt since "Better Player" is being benched for two games for sleeping with "OTHER PLAYER's" 16-year-old cousin who got drunk at the offday team and family outing to Busch Gardens.
   62. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:08 PM (#2192609)
Me too -- and I think they probably would've too if they didn't have such a big lead at the time.

I made my views on this clear in the other thread, on Rosenthal's column: not a chance. You don't trade a Grade A prospect who is near-major-league-ready for a FA player. Period. You just SIGN the FA, and then you have them both. That's what being a big-market team is all about. You build a juggernaut that way, and have your eye both on the now and the long-term. But I'm just repeating myself.

And I don't think what happened with Milledge was just part of the usual treatment of rookies. I think it reflects issues with Milledge in the Mets' clubhouse. But I think those issues can be resolved, and I still wouldn't trade him.
   63. Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:09 PM (#2192613)
I am curious as to how Halofan got this knowledge.

I play poker with some ex-players.
   64. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2192625)
There was a sliver of irony in seeing so many posts from people who would know the nuances of statistical hierarchies completely lost when it came to hierarchies within group dynamics.

None of the people posting here, are, to my knowledge, stathounds. I certainly am not. And the "hierarchies within group dynamics" vary by culture. In the male-dominated ones I am familiar with--high school sports, construction workers, intramural sports--if someone puts up a sign like that, the response is generally along the lines of "Say what you have to say to my face, you gutless ############\" and the authority figure--Randolph--steps in and deals with both parties in an open, straight-up way. The fact that Milledge, apparently, did NOT do this coudld indicateany number of things.

But maybe MLB is different, and I have not been in the Mets' clubhouse.
   65. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2192631)
I play poker with some ex-players.

Fair enough; that is not exatly the final word on the subject, but it would put you closer to the inside than most people here. But you might want to lead off with that next time something like this comes up.
   66. Orange & Blue Velvet Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:23 PM (#2192637)
Just the fact we're having this conversation is a problem. I mean, it's mere days before the playoffs. Milledge is not an uber-talented prospect like Ken Griffey Jr., where you might abide such behavior more easily because of the tremendous upside.

Instead of talking about Wright and Reyes playing in their first postseason, we're here discussing a 21 yo prospect. THIS, folks, was one of my biggest concerns. Sure, I was down on Milledge's talent, but I was also afraid he would take the good light away from Wright and Reyes with his shite attitude.

But I think those issues can be resolved, and I still wouldn't trade him.

Milledge's stock is at an all-time low. Nobody in their right mind would trade him now.
   67. Francoeur Sans Gages (AlouGoodbye) Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:30 PM (#2192644)
Milledge's stock is at an all-time low. Nobody in their right mind would trade him now.
But maybe Milledge's stock will only get lower from now on. He's now guaranteed to bounce back.
   68. Banta Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:33 PM (#2192645)
Instead of talking about Wright and Reyes playing in their first postseason, we're here discussing a 21 yo prospect. THIS, folks, was one of my biggest concerns.

But Emad, Milledge isn't even gonna be on the postseason roster. Sure, this is another red flag to add to a decent-sized list of them, but it's not like Milledge broke Glavine's arm or something. The impact on the postseason should be minimal or even non-existent. The impact on his future with the Mets, however, is another story and one that is yet to be fully determined.
   69. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:37 PM (#2192651)
Emad, weren't you the one plastering Metsgeek with all of those "trade Jose Reyes for fill in the blank scrub starter" a few months ago?
   70. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:40 PM (#2192653)
Milledge's stock is at an all-time low. Nobody in their right mind would trade him now.

You misunderstand me, Emad. Knowing what I know now, I still wouldn't have traded him as the centerpiece in a Zito deal back in July. I think you are completely wrong about his talent, and I think his attitude issues can be resolved with some growing up.

And you tend to worry about everything, Emad. Wright's power is gone. So is Beltran's. If you didn't have something to fret over, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. Better Lastings Milledge than something else right now.
   71. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:44 PM (#2192655)
If you didn't have something to fret over, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself.

If I were a Met fan,I'd be fretting over not having Martinez.

I certainly don't want a Subway Series, but Orlando Hernandez taking on the Yankees in the WS would sure be fun to watch.
   72. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:46 PM (#2192656)
And you tend to worry about everything, Emad. Wright's power is gone. So is Beltran's. If you didn't have something to fret over, you wouldn't know what to do with yourself. Better Lastings Milledge than something else right now.

He's the anti-Russlan.
   73. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:52 PM (#2192661)
If I were a Met fan,I'd be fretting over not having Martinez.

Nah. We haven't had Pedro since the first two months of the year, really. Much as it hurts that he's not going to be a part of this, because he's Pedro, after all, the harsh reality is he hasn't been that important a cog in the machine on the field this season. We're actually under .500 in his starts.

As a Mets' fan, I'm just not fretting, at all. How about that!
   74. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:56 PM (#2192666)
That's funny, because the Mets robbed the diamondbacks in the Duque trade. You didn't predict that the mets would get El Duque. You predicted that they would trade Lastings Milledge for El Duque. Well, congratulations, Genius Josh, you are now the proud owner of of Jorge Julio!!! How's he adapting back to that closer role, anyway?


One, I didn't *predict* the Dbacks would trade El Duque for Milledge. I *predicted* the Mets would acquire El Duque.

Two, El Duque in NYM has pitched 116 innings, and his VORP is 20.2. His salary was $4M. Julio pitched 43 innings in AZ, and his VORP is 9.4. His salary was $2M. In other words, in terms of production (per IP or per dollar), these two players were about the same. To say that the Mets "robbed" the Dbacks in the trade is pretty stupid. The Mets got an ancient starter who's a free agent next year. The Dbacks got a reliever who's under their control for next year. For this year alone, the trade was a push. For next year, the Mets get squat, the Dbacks still control Julio.

This is the same El Duque, by the way, that will be starting game one of the NLDS for the 95+ win Mets. Who's going to start game one the next time Genius Josh steers the d-bags into the playoffs? Evan Maclane? Nuff said about the Green trade.


El Duque isn't starting game 1 because he's good. It's because he's the only guy in the rotation who's semi-healthy or doesn't suck. When your alternative is Jose Lima, El Duque surely looks good.

Yes, enough said about the Shawn Green trade. In 116 at bats, Green's VORP in NY has been -1.9. Any living breathing body with two arms and two legs is more than enough of a return for Shawn Green. Evan MacLane likely will end up being a lefty reliever in the majors and he'll probably contribute more over the next several years than Shawn Green will.

Oh, and speaking of the brothers Hernandez, how is that trade for staff-ace Livan working out? He's got that rubber arm, so he should be good to go for game one ... of the 2007 season opener for the Diamondbacks.


El Duque with the Mets: 116 IP, 4.09 ERA, VORP = 20.2
Livan with the Dbacks: 63.3 IP, 3.76 ERA, VORP = 16.0

After Brandon Webb is a Met.


Brandon Webb VORP = 73.2

Pedro + Glavine + El Duque VORP = 16.1 + 34.3 + 20.2 = 70.6

Yeah, have a nice postseason. Make sure to pre-order that Mets jersey with Webb's name...
   75. robinred Posted: September 30, 2006 at 08:58 PM (#2192668)
As a Mets' fan, I'm just not fretting, at all. How about that!

A reasonable position.

...the harsh reality is he hasn't been that important a cog in the machine on the field this season. We're actually under .500 in his starts.

Yes, but the post-season is a different animal.
   76. Bob Koo Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:04 PM (#2192672)
Milledge really should be on the postseason roster, clubhouse issues be damned and roster shenanigans be utilized.

us grrrrls just dont do that - i mean if a younger grrrl makes the basketball team we don't be making her go out wearing a fake beard and a strap on or something (macho macho mannnn...) and trust me that is a LOT funnier than some guy in drag

we don't be letting the bigger older kids beat up and abuse the smaller younger kids - we think that is bad.


bc, i usually enjoy your posts, but you are way off here. there are tons of stories of hazing concerning female sports teams. maybe not so much at the "pro" level, but certainly at the college and high school levels.
   77. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:09 PM (#2192677)
One, I didn't *predict* the Dbacks would trade El Duque for Milledge. I *predicted* the Mets would acquire El Duque.


Funny how nobody else remembers it this way, you racist #######.

The Dbacks got a reliever who's under their control for next year. For this year alone, the trade was a push. For next year, the Mets get squat, the Dbacks still control Julio.

Yeah, "control." May I suggest that you try to control your jubilation over Jorge Julio - it's pathetic.

Evan MacLane likely will end up being a lefty reliever in the majors and he'll probably contribute more over the next several years than Shawn Green will.


I am sure MacLane will be a big contributer to many of your next several 75-win juggernauts.

Yeah, have a nice postseason. Make sure to pre-order that Mets jersey with Webb's name...

I wear a 42. Why don't you buy me one before I take your lunch money.
   78. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:12 PM (#2192679)
What's funny is how you go back to insulting others when you don't have anything meaningful to say... which is all the time, actually.

I wear a 42.


fat a$$
   79. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:21 PM (#2192689)
Halofan Posted: September 30, 2006 at 04:06 PM (#2192607)

baseball chick:
I didn't complain that you didn't know, I just pointed out that people with a familiarity of one side of things are often obtuse to the other ways of looking at them.


- i got NO problem with that and i have said this a LOT my own self. actually i wrote about it 2 YEARS ago
http://astros.mostvaluablenetwork.com/the-bench-player/united-we-stand-divided-we-fall/

(yes!!! self promotion!!! and proving to rob base that i DO clean up real nice)

what i want to try to understand and what i keep asking and yall guys keep not telling is WHY does abusing and humiliating young guys help them to be better team players
   80. Orange & Blue Velvet Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:23 PM (#2192693)
SNY is saying Pedro is having rotator cuff surgery next week. He's expected to be out 8 months.
   81. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:25 PM (#2192697)
fat a$$

Yeah, that's what it means. Still haven't heard your explanation of what you mean by "cigar roller." I'm waiting.
   82. HowardMegdal Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:27 PM (#2192702)
"SNY is saying Pedro is having rotator cuff surgery next week. He's expected to be out 8 months."

It has been my thinking for a while that the Mets can't afford to go into 2007 assuming Pedro will be in the rotation. This just forces their hand.
   83. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:28 PM (#2192704)
El Duque isn't starting game 1 because he's good. It's because he's the only guy in the rotation who's semi-healthy or doesn't suck.

Tom Glavine and John Maine both say, "Hi."

They also note the resemblence between Milledge and his anonymous note-writer on the one hand, and you and Base on the other. It's uncanny, right down to the mature way you have of resolving disputes.
   84. philly Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:30 PM (#2192706)
Pedro out for 8 months with rotator cuff surgery:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2608613
   85. HowardMegdal Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:32 PM (#2192709)
Honestly, does anyone think that Jorge Julio was nearly as valuable to the Mets as Orlando Hernandez has been? As far as I'm concerned, they got a top starter (who they have been able to rest, and keep fresh for a postseason, where he excels) in exchange for a spare part. Regardless of his value to AZ, this was a steal FOR THE METS.

Julio also made $2.5 million this year- so having him under control next year, with arbitration, isn't necessarily a net plus. I don't think he's garbage, but the MEts have about 19 better, cheaper options.

Also, call MacLane a prospect if you want- the only reason he seems that way, to my mind, is because he's young. Green hasn't been great, obviously. I like him in the postseason over Tucker/Ledee, and there was no guarantee Floyd was going to be ready, meaning you'd need Chavez and another OF to avoid those two or Lastings, who is just not ready yet.
   86. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:32 PM (#2192710)
They also note the resemblence between Milledge and his anonymous note-writer on the one hand, and you and Base on the other. It's uncanny, right down to the mature way you have of resolving disputes.

I find levski's racism disgusting. And unlike most of the rest of you, I don't intend to take it quietly. So ##### at me from the sidelines all you want.
   87. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:33 PM (#2192711)
Pedro out for 8 months with rotator cuff surgery:

Oh, geez. Godspeed, Pedro. And good health.
   88. Sam M. Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:35 PM (#2192712)
Green hasn't been great, obviously. I like him in the postseason over Tucker/Ledee, and there was no guarantee Floyd was going to be ready, meaning you'd need Chavez and another OF to avoid those two or Lastings, who is just not ready yet.

They could have signed Preston Wilson, who's 10x better than Shawn Green, right-handed, wanted to sign with the Mets, and wouldn't have taken up a roster spot for 2007. Please don't defend that deal; it was terrible.
   89. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:37 PM (#2192713)
They could have signed Preston Wilson, who's 10x better than Shawn Green, right-handed, wanted to sign with the Mets, and wouldn't have taken up a roster spot for 2007. Please don't defend that deal; it was terrible.

For the record, I agree.
   90. ian Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:47 PM (#2192717)
what i want to try to understand and what i keep asking and yall guys keep not telling is WHY does abusing and humiliating young guys help them to be better team players

Toughens 'em up.
   91. AJMcCringleberry Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:47 PM (#2192718)
Pedro out for 8 months with rotator cuff surgery

What the ####!? This is terrible. We really need to sign Schmidt.
   92. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:47 PM (#2192719)
Whatever, Base. Get off your high horse. You don't know the slightest thing about me, my beliefs, or my opinions on others. You are obvisouly too dumb to realize that every time I call El Duque a cigar roller, it's to bait you in another one of your idiotic Quixotic quests to clean BTF. You are as predictable as a mule running behind a carrot...

***

It's a shame to hear about Pedro's injury. I love watching him pitch; I've gone to Shea at least 4 or 5 times specifically to catch his starts. Obviously, his shoulder injury is a lot more serious than his calf problems; there's a very good chance he'll return as a shell of his former self over the last two years of his deal in NY. So sad...

***

Howard, it's true that the Mets didn't need Julio; Minaya has done a great job assembling the pen, not only getting Wagner, but also adding parts that have contributed well. Even Sam's beloved Mota has been good since joining the team. The Dbacks could use Julio though, with Valverde battling injuries and inconsistencies. And Julio, despite his struggles, has some trade value, if that's what the Dbacks want to do. If not, he'll be another setup option for 07.

***

And finally, Sam is right, as always. The Mets were dumb to acquire Shawn Green. Shoewizard told you that the day the deal was announced. Green will be truly horrible next year; just watch. Even if MacLane doesn't amount to much, the Dbacks saved $6+m and freed up RF for Quentin.
   93. AJMcCringleberry Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#2192721)
Green will be truly horrible next year; just watch.

Next year? He's horrible this year.

I can't believe he's going to be starting in RF in the playoffs, it's sad.
   94. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:52 PM (#2192722)
Whatever, Base. Get off your high horse. You don't know the slightest thing about me, my beliefs, or my opinions on others. .

Yeah, except for your constant flooding of the board with racist remarks. Keep doing it, fine. But don't complain when I show up to "ruin" your baseball discussion, you racist #######.
   95. base ball chick Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:54 PM (#2192723)
Bob Koo Posted: September 30, 2006 at 05:04 PM (#2192672)


us grrrrls just dont do that - i mean if a younger grrrl makes the basketball team we don't be making her go out wearing a fake beard and a strap on or something (macho macho mannnn...) and trust me that is a LOT funnier than some guy in drag

we don't be letting the bigger older kids beat up and abuse the smaller younger kids - we think that is bad.

bc, i usually enjoy your posts, but you are way off here. there are tons of stories of hazing concerning female sports teams. maybe not so much at the "pro" level, but certainly at the college and high school levels.


- well bob,

the only place i KNOW it is true bout females abusing/hazing new females joining a group is gangs. which are very violent.

and at my hs anyhow, the coach she wanted the grrrls to get into college and pro ball if they could and at least 10 years ago (wow - have i been free for 10 years now!!!) there wasn't no hazing/abuse i know of. one of my gf her sister was on the team and i can ask her if that happened back then and i just didn't know.

- i would really like to know what exactly millege has done. don't it even matter??? if he is rebelling against stuff like being told to caddy someones stuff all i can say is good for him.


- from what i have seen of both male and female human beings and from what i know from my own life, putting people down and humiliating and abusing them make them worse not better. and make a lot of people do what they got to do to get by and get out and it do NOT make them cooperate more. and it make a lot of others want to get revenge on the abusers too. or become abusers their own self as soon as they can get some fresh meat.

- i mean - we be hearing from teachers - bullying is bad bullying is bad (my kidz in school)

so why is it suddenly a good thing in a baseball clubhouse? is that how it is for yall guys at YOUR work place? i disbelieve sam and the other bosses at his school make all the new law professors carry their briefcases (or whatever) and dance around in their undies or whatever
   96. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:55 PM (#2192724)
Base, after posting this,

i really don't know how you could make it dumber either. i guess i'll just have to ignore your retard posts.


I think you forfeit your stake to the moral high ground.
   97. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:56 PM (#2192725)
I think you forfeit your stake to the moral high ground.

I don't think so.
   98. 1k5v3L Posted: September 30, 2006 at 09:59 PM (#2192728)
Yeah, behold all the racist things I say about the players of every single major league team out there. You can't walk into a thread without seeing me say something racist about the team under discussion.

Again, the only reason I say anything about the Mets is because I laugh to watch you jump in head first into the thread, your guns blazing, your mouth spewing insults. And you always deliver the same old predictable sh!t over and over. It's so pathetic that it's hilarious.

Who said you couldn't have fun at BTF?
   99. Rob Base Posted: September 30, 2006 at 10:00 PM (#2192729)
I see, you spout racist garbage here because of me. That's entirely excusable then, scumbag.
   100. ian Posted: September 30, 2006 at 10:01 PM (#2192730)
Aren't people supposed to ##### about racist language?
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