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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Sunday, November 20, 2005
Yankees/Mets notes from Jon Heyman…
“Whatever it takes” is basically [the Yankees’] standing offer for Ichiro in hopes that his feud with manager Mike Hargrove could be impetus to a trade… Newsday has learned that Hargrove and Bavasi recently proposed trading Ichiro and that Ichiro suggested Hargrove’s firing, which should make for an uncomfortable spring reunion.
The Yankees also inquired about bringing back Alfonso Soriano to play center but were unwilling to trade Cano and/or Wang (Texas could have had Cano as the throw-in in the A-Rod trade). The Marlins requested the same two players for Juan Pierre, whom Yankees reports suggest regressed last season, anyway… Cashman is said to be “dead set against” the volatile Milton Bradley.
...
With Kenji Jojima showing no interest in coming to New York, either, the Mets’ main catching choices come down to Bengie Molina and Ramon Hernandez. But to some Mets scouts, there’s only one choice: Hernandez. While Molina looked good in the playoffs, the Mets have surprisingly negative scouting reports on his defense.
ALSO:
NY Daily News: Yanks’ center still cloudy
NY Daily News: Mets looking to hold a Grudz
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1. Paul The Paranoid Android Posted: November 20, 2005 at 12:34 PM (#1739367)There goes that idea. The Yanks can't acquire someone for pennies on the dollar; they gotta acquire someone for dollars on the penny.
He might be old, and he is probably overpriced.
Therefore, the perfect Yankee.
A Matsui/Ichiro!/anyone OF would be big news in the Pacific Rim.
Please, Omar. Don't sign Bengie.
With revenue sharing, Japanese marketing can take a flying leap for all I care.
If Ichiro! plays CF, he becomes significantly more valuable to whoever pays him. One of the (many) curiosities of Bavasi's reign is why he didn't make that switch as soon as he lost Cameron.
While I understand that there's nothing more important to Seattle's future than Hargrove's happiness, I don't think Ichiro's going anywhere.
Seriously, I will hunt down and taser in the balls the first writer to even use "Albert Pujols" and "Yankees should trade for" in the same sentence.
YES!
But that's it.
I don't think this is right.
Just speculatin'. No need for violence or anything.
Florida and the Mets have had extensive talks over the past two weeks about Marlins second baseman Luis Castillo.
The Mets offered him a substantial increase on his 2005 salary of $575,000, somewhere in the $800,000-$1 million range.
I don't think this is right.
Are you kidding? A-Rod can play shortstop competently. Even if you are going just by UZRs, A-Rod has the edge. Remember, you have to use some sort of positional adjustment factor. I don't know if this has changed, but Tango used to add seven "runs" for shortstops (+1 for 3b- I wonder why this this low..) and subtract nine "runs" for first-basemen. But forget about defensive metrics. Lets think about this. Who do you think is more valuable? A shortstop/thirdbaseman who hits like A-Rod or a first-baseman who hits like Pujols?
The Mets offered him a substantial increase on his 2005 salary of $575,000, somewhere in the $800,000-$1 million range
Eh...the Mets offered Sweeney, not Anderson that much. Marlon said the Mets offered him a lot less than what the Nats did, and only for one year.
I think even pennies are too high a price to pay for some psycho wife beater.
Oh, come off it; there's probably an inquiry out on the internet somewhere saying Abe Vigoda is younger than Pujols.
I say he's whatever age he says he is until proven otherwise.
(I am talkin' about Abe Vigoda here)
Mariners - Ichiro = A's, Angels & Rangers all having much better shots at the Wild Card.
the Marlins asked for cano and wang for juan pierre???? heck I thought it was a pretty interesting rumor when it was edmonds for cano and wang, and even being a huge edmonds fan I was thinking it was pretty close to even. Juan pierre for a even one of those guys would be a rip off of the yankees.
"Yankees reports also suggested that Barry Bonds may have been on the disabled list for a significant portion of last season."
Just speculatin'. No need for violence or anything.
You ####! That would be a terrible trade!
*gouges out Erik's eyes with barbed wire*
Pujols had to have a major advantage in '03 and '04, though.
Ichiro would be an alright addition to the Yankees; he can handle center field. However, if it costs Cano, then it would be a poor trade for the Yankees. If it costs Wang, then the trade would be atrociously bad. If it costs both, then Cashman is the only GM who would make that trade.
Sure, Ichiro! would be a great addition to the Yankees, but they are going to have to give up ML ready talent AND a prospect or two.
I don't think the Yankees have the players to do that. (what about Sheffield, Womack, Wright and 1 billion dollars?)
Wait..what?
No #### Ichiro would be a nice addition to a team....FOR FREE and it sounds like thats the only condition you would pick him up on. If you think giving up Cano and/or Wang (and neither of these guys are anything close to future superstars) would be bad who WOULD you give up and why would the Mariners deal him to NY if they aren't getting any one decent back? The Yankees are pretty devoid of trading chips...Duncan has been looking bad, some reports say hes an all or nothing swinger w bad D at first...Hughes has upside but big injury issue. after that you are down to mediocre prospects who all have their pluses but aren't anything near the level to get Ichiro with (cabrera, vechionacci, kevin thompson, battle,henn) Tabata has upside but is still like 18 and was in the GCL this year so hes waaaay the heck off. Bruce and Jackson (or any 05 picks) can't be dealt yet
Well, Ichiro! would be a lot more valuable in CF, where the Yankees would play him. He would be, what, at worst the 3rd or 4th best CF in the AL?
Duncan has been looking bad
Not an AFL fan, are you?
Technically, aren't you now obligated to zap yourself?
Yankee fans are inherently delusional.
I didn't want to do this, but you have forced my hand.
Count them. Count the rings.
Cano was already an average hitter without adjusting for position and was only 1 run below average on defense, which will improve as he stops making stupid rookie errors. I doubt he's ever an elite hitter, but I think he'll be very valuable, at least for the next couple years while he's cheap.
Hargrove would have to be insane to ask to have Ichiro traded. The M's would have to have a death wish to even consider trading him. For an organization as PR-conscious as the Mariners are, to trade away the most popular player is...is...well, insane, especially in light of the two atrociously bad season the M's just had.
And for whatever it's worth, I think the "Ichiro-Hargrove feud" is overblown.
Dude, you sound like the village idiots here in Taiwan.
A decent league average starter? Sure
An allstar pitcher that doesn't K people? C'mon.
There was a time, when Kevin Brown was younger, when Kevin Brown did not K people. That was the point of the comparison.It is not out of the realm of possibility that his K rate increases, given his current pitching style.
Jeter strikes me as being the kind of guy who would be miserable playing outside of NY.
Would the Yankees fans ever get over it?
The Yankees drafted Karl Amonite in the 13th round. Albert Pujols was drafted in the 13th round. Clearly, Karl Amonite will follow the career path of Albert Pujols.
You just love being obtuse don't you? Brown threw a heavy fastball at around 95 and was an extreme ground ball pitcher. Wang throws a heavy fastball at around 95 and is an extreme ground ball pitcher. Both K'ed guys in the minors at a good rate and neither struck alot of guys out in their initial Major League exposure. I'm sure this is the first time you've seen that comparision posted on this board though, it's not like it's been posted about 100 times since the middle of the season.
I do think he will age very well based on several factors, so I wouldn't worry much about that angle if I were in the market for him.
Steroids make people bigger. Steroids allow people to throw harder. Steroids create future injury problems.
I am not going to make any conclusions here to try to connect the two sets of data, but they do seem to connect somehow.
Proof is right here that one can be strike out basically nobody and still have a hall of fame career.
Here is a good counter example, though I do think Wang will be a very good pitcher. And, I certainly think he will give the Yankees more than Brown did.
Yes, you were very subtle there. Well played sir, a 4 year old boy or a dolphin might have read that and thought you were not accusing Brown of juicing.
Are you accusing Brown of using steroids because he broke down at age 37? A pitcher, with more than 3000 career innings, with arm trouble? If that is all it takes to set off your roid meter, well, you must never get any sleep, because that thing is going off all the time.
Proof is right here that one can be strike out basically nobody and still have a hall of fame career.
If you have to go back that far to prove your point, you aren't making your point.
Would the Yankees fans ever get over it?
I would seriously consider becoming a Yankees fan if they traded Jeter. So they'd only be down about 499,999 fans.
Gagne 55, just go away.
Hmm. It felt like a big number. Maybe I miscounted me by an order of magnitude.
Are you not seeing the wishcasting there? Every pitcher whose best pitch is a sinker and throws in the low to mid nineties is compared to Kevin Brown. Wang is compared to Kevin Brown, Derek Lowe was compared to Kevin Brown, Jon Garland is compared to Kevin Brown, Jake Westbrook is compared to Kevin Brown. Kevin Brown is 90th percentile projection for the starting pitcher with a hard sinker. I believe the post comparing Albert Pujols to the average 13th round draft pick was using hyperbole to point out how unlikely your scenario with Wang is. You appear to be the one being obtuse.
Garland: 7.5 WARP3
Westbrook: 7.9
Brown: 11.2
Lowe: 11.6
If he has a season like any of those in the next few years, him for Ichiro would be a good trade straight up.
Those are the *best* seasons of those players, so that's a little misleading, but I did think to myself as well when he listed those pitchers: "Damn, those are all guys I wouldn't necessarily have minded having on my staff."
I don't see how. If you want to argue the merits of the comparision, which is not something I came up with, like you did, that's fine. I don't think Kevin Brown is a reasonable projection for Wang, it's just a counter arguement to the "Wang didn't K enough batters in his first 120 or whatever major league innings" arguement that is thrown around so often on this board. Comments like #63, which was intentionally thick headed to give someone a hard time are pretty much the definition of being obtuse.
I rarely see him throw above 94.
Plus, he seriously has no outpitch. That curveball or slider or splitter or whatever it is is pretty dan lame.
Not an AFL fan, are you? "
I just think it should be taken in context. It is more like a postseason spring training, where how a guy looks is more important than the stat line he puts up esp. for hitters given the weak, tired pitching and hitters parks...Duncan has always had good power, it doesnt surprise me the least bit to see him pounding weak shtt into the cheap seats. His problem was thateven as he was mashing mistakes he was looking bad doing it, scouts felt he hadn't changed his approach at all. And Lord knows his bad regular season is more impt than his brief AFL stint (though in his defense he was rushed to AA)
Plus the track record of guys who either weren't good prospects period and/or guys coming off a bad year and having big AFL years isn't all that convincing (Richard Lewis and Ken Harvey are who i'm thinkin of).
Towards the end of the season he was regurlarly around 94-95 according to the YES gun, and I'm fairly certain that if checking the old game chatters was an option (at least, I can't figure out how to do it) I could prove that. Supposedly he threw 97 before he was injured, so there's reason to think he should be able to continue throwing at that velocity.
But it's still serious wishcasting. Let's worry about projecting him to be a reliable 3rd starter before we start imagining him running off a 6-7 year stretch of ace-caliber seasons.
Hell, he arguable already has. Its just unfortunate that its all apropos of nothing. David Justice gave the Yankees more than Wee Willie Keeler did, but I don't think that tells us much about them as ballplayers
Would the Yankees fans ever get over it?
From this moment forward, just on the field, I think I'd rather have Jeter. But I admit it's close.
I think the M's are more likely to fire Hargrove than trade Ichiro, but if they do trade him, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't trade him to the Yankees. New York is one of the few teams that would give up somebody and take the entire contract.
mlbtraderumors.com is reporting that Wagner will accept a 4/40 deal from the Mets. This site was also the first to break the Nady-Cameron trade, getting the scoop a few days before any newspaper reported it. Still, I hope it isn't true. That is definately too much money and too many years.
Entirely irrelevant. Calling one trade correctly isn't nearly enough to establish a reputation for reliability.
Entirely irrelevant. Calling one trade correctly isn't nearly enough to establish a reputation for reliability.
I just wanted to say that it has some credibility, to separate it from the rumors one finds on the ESPN or MLB.com boards.
All I said was that Wang could make a few all star games. I hate it when you people make me do this....
Count 'em. All 26. Count 'em all.
Another player on the Mets' fans wish list is Brian Giles, who the Yankees are reportedly still interested in signing. Well, you can cross him off as well, as he has let the Mets know through intermediaries that he has no interest in playing at Shea Stadium. That might explain to many of the Met-o-philes why there's been no contact between Minaya and Giles' representatives.
Nor do I like this:
The Mets' pursuit of Billy Wagner may have paid off, as several sources are saying a deal could be announced as soon as tomorrow.
Mets GM Omar Minaya has apparently offered a four-year, $40 million contract to Wagner, a deal that the Phillies are not expected to match.
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