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Friday, July 02, 2004

Newsday: Jeter’s play to remember

Does Derek Jeter now hold the top 2 spots on the “Most Overrated Defensive Plays of All Time” list?

The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: July 02, 2004 at 02:57 PM | 203 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. PepTech Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:02 PM (#712243)
I dunno about that, but it sure seems like Sheffield would like to have his baby.
   2. Eugene Freedman Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:04 PM (#712245)
Pokie Reese seemed to go a lot further to catch the ball he got to. Jeter caught his with room to spare and then dove into the stands. They were both great plays, but Reese had more range and Jeter made an unnecessary (to catch the ball) dive. That pretty much sums up Jeter's defense. Less range, more unnecessary dives.
   3. Repoz Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:07 PM (#712250)
What in the name of Ken Berry CWS/RFD is going on?!?!?

I had 3 people come up to me in the bar and call it the greatest catch ever!!!

How soon they forget Jim French!
   4. The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:08 PM (#712251)
That's a ball many, if not most, shortstops would have reached easier than Jeter did, and you're right, they wouldn't have had to dive. If it's Pokey Reese or Cesar Izturis, that ball is in their back pocket and it's no big deal.
   5. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:09 PM (#712252)
Why is this play overrated? The ball would have landed fair and likely been a game-winning hit. No one else could have caught it, and Jeter had to run a long way at full-speed to get there. It's true that it's not as spectacular as a catch made while diving into the stands, but he went into the stands because he didn't have time to stop. It's not like he had the room to get under control, and then dove into the stands on purpose to make the play look more impressive.
   6. Johnny Tuttle Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:10 PM (#712253)
But as far as winning games and being a winning player, I don't think anyone surpasses Jeter at that position.

Joe Morgan, today in a chat.

Arghhh!!!!
   7. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:11 PM (#712255)
If it's Pokey Reese or Cesar Izturis, that ball is in their back pocket and it's no big deal.

This is BS. You can rag on Jeter's lateral mobility all you want (and I'll agree with you), but his range going back on fly balls is as good as or better than anyone's. That's why he should be a centerfielder.
   8. DKDC Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:17 PM (#712263)
I think this is one play that we should all just be happy with.

The image of a bruised and bloody Jeter is one that Jeter-lovers (Wow! What a gritty player!) and Jeter-haters (Ha ha, stupid pretty boy) alike can cherish.
   9. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:19 PM (#712266)
The ball Reese caught was hit higher, so he had more time to make his play. Don't get me wrong, it was still a great catch and I won't argue if you want to say it was a better play than Jeter's. I would argue, however, that the difference in the way the two plays are being reported has at least as much to do with when they took place and who wound up winning as it does with the Jeter myth-making machine.
   10. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:24 PM (#712270)
Why do anti-Jeter stat heads have this uncontrolable urge to attack the guy at every turn?

Why can't you bask in a magnificent game yesterday and the fact that even if it's overrated, Jeter's catch and dive was exciting and great PR for baseball? (what, you don't think having a media darling play all-out, pedal-to-the-metal like Jeter did is good PR for baseball?)

I find a lot of sabermetrical writing and insight brilliant and illuminating, but I sometimes think that some sabermetric fans lose the forest for the trees and forget that there's nothing like a great plays!!!
   11. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:28 PM (#712275)
Sorry, that should say that there's nothing like great players making great plays, especially in a fantastic game like this.
   12. AROM Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:31 PM (#712276)
Jeter's range stats are a lot better this year. According to zone rating, he's average to slightly above right now, after years of being dead last.
   13. Darkened States Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:33 PM (#712285)
I saw the replay, and I'm a Jeter hater, but it was fantastic because of the overall game, and the specific situation.

Jeter's defense is overrated, and maybe half the SS's in the league catch that ball without the dive. But that game made the catch better than it was.
   14. Ruppert Jones Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:35 PM (#712288)
But as far as winning games and being a winning player, I don't think anyone surpasses Jeter at that position.

Joe Morgan, today in a chat.

Arghhh!!!!


This doesn't even do the comment justice. He wasn't just being compared to today's players - he was specifically being compared to guys like Ozzie and Ripken.
   15. Nasty Nate Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:35 PM (#712289)
The backlash is because a bunch of us watched an amazing game last night that had dozens of twists and turns last night, and plenty of clutch pitching, hitting, and fielding all around. Then we wake up, still exhilerated, and then rush to read the recaps and stories about the game to confirm that it wasn't all a dream. And then half or all of every story is about 1 play, a great play, just because its Jeter. Thats why I have resentment.
   16. Chris Needham Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:38 PM (#712292)
Jeter's defense is overrated, and maybe half the SS's in the league catch that ball without the dive. But that game made the catch better than it was.

Even Jeter caught the ball without the dive. It was a sprinting catch on a ball that, if it had dropped in, would have lost the game for the Yankees. He only dove because he was either going to take his chances with the stands, or he was going to be kneecapped by the low wall. He made the right choice. He was going to fast and was too close to the wall to do anything else. And if he hadn't been going so fast, he wouldn't have made that catch.

And as someone pointed out, even when his defense was at it's worst, Jeter has always been phenomenal at getting to pop ups and short bleeders into the outfield. (Game 7 of the 2001 WS, not withstanding!)
   17. Hubie Brooks (Not Really) Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:39 PM (#712294)
I just don't like the guy.
It was a great play, got even better whent the cocky little pretty boy came up bloody.
   18. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:44 PM (#712312)
"Why do anti-Jeter stat heads have this uncontrolable urge to attack the guy at every turn?"

Two possible reasons:

1. Small sample size?

2. Anger that Jeter's other "overrated" play resulted in another A's first round playoff exit.
   19. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:45 PM (#712313)
Is there online video of the catch somewhere? Link, please?

I saw one quick clip in the sportscenter intro before I had to rush to work....
   20. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:47 PM (#712318)
With all due respect Nate, you have a choice about what you read. Since I get my news from the internet, I just clicked on links to the other stories. Like Larry' great piece at THT.
   21. yl_adam Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:48 PM (#712322)
I think espn.com has video. When I was there earlier, they had a link on the front page.
   22. Pennants fly forever Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:49 PM (#712323)
It was a f--ing great play, and the moment and the situation has everything to do with rating a play. Don't tell me for a moment that every overpaid ballplayer would put his body on the line the way Jeter did. But of course, Jeter-bashing is what many threads on BTF often seem to devolve into these days..
   23. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:50 PM (#712326)
2. Anger that Jeter's other "overrated" play resulted in another A's first round playoff exit.

I know what you mean, but are there any actual A's fans around here? I haven't seen any.

I think statheads don't like him because he's "Mr. Intangibles". People are always saying nonsense about him like, "he knows how to win", and "he helps you out even when he's not hitting or playing good defense".

I don't have any problem with Jeter himself. I don't like Jeter hagiographers like Kay, though.
   24. Urban Faber Posted: July 02, 2004 at 03:59 PM (#712338)
And then half or all of every story is about 1 play, a great play, just because its Jeter.

Great games, or championship games, in any sport always seem to be boiled down to one thing -- probably because that's the way sports editors think. "What was the key play of the game?" Likely by consensus this was chosen and the fact that it was Jeter didn't hurt.
   25. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:01 PM (#712343)
Don't tell me for a moment that every overpaid ballplayer would put his body on the line the way Jeter did.

If it meant something, I believe they would. Of course, Jeter-lauding is what many threads on BTF often seem to devolve into these days...

Hey, wasn't that Ken Huckaby he landed on?
   26. docanddel Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:01 PM (#712345)
Another reason this play is standing out is the stark contrast between Jeter's all out effort and Nomar sitting on the bench with a sour look on his face. The fact he couldn't be bothered to join his teammates on the rail as the tension mounted is nearly as unforgettable a moment as Jeter's play. Frankly, this is another element in the Red Sox - Yankee rivalry and as we know the victors get to write the history. The New York media is whetting their chops over all the possible "my dad can lick your dad" stories
   27. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:06 PM (#712350)
Don't tell me for a moment that every overpaid ballplayer would put his body on the line the way Jeter did.

You're probably right. Some would probably be smart enough to realize that the possibility of "Enrique Wilson: starting shortstop" wasn't worth the risk.
   28. Pennants fly forever Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:06 PM (#712351)
If it meant something, I believe they would.

Perhaps it would be better to ask how many big-bucks players would do that in a regular season game in July with their team up 7.5 in the standings? It's opinion of course, but I can think of many more that wouldn't than would..

<i>Of course, Jeter-lauding is what many threads on BTF often seem to devolve into these days...</i?

Unless you are reading Yankee game chatter, this is a ridiculously false statement. Even there, the sentiments in April/May were hardly charitable.
   29. The Original SJ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:07 PM (#712352)
It was a great play to get to the ball. It was not a high popup, it was a looper really, and Jeter did a great job getting to the ball.

The funny thing about that game was the Yankee defense forced extra innings, if they had played better, it never would have gotten there.

But IMO, the better play was the dive on the bag, touch throw over Kapler play be ARod. I am not sure you will see another play like that for some time.
   30. Danny Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:08 PM (#712355)
I know what you mean, but are there any actual A's fans around here? I haven't seen any.

Ahem.
   31. Nasty Nate Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:08 PM (#712357)
Sap Randall: i understand your point, but this was a game that didn't boil down to one play. Just as important was A-Rods diving play at 3rd that became a double play, Leskanic getting out of that jam with Pokey's throw home and the K's of Giambi and Sierra, Manny's homer, and the hits by Cairo and Flaherty. .... and nevermind all that happened in the first 9 innings.
   32. scotto Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:11 PM (#712365)
IIRC ARod had two outstanding plays at third, the one sjohnny mentions and one earlier in the inning.

The Sox are just sick with bases loaded no or one out situations. I'm developing a very irrational dislike of Millar.
   33. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:11 PM (#712366)
"What was the key play of the game?"

I'd say A-Rod's diving stop of Millar's ball and nifty throw from his knees to turn it into a DP.

Another reason this play is standing out is the stark contrast between Jeter's all out effort and Nomar sitting on the bench with a sour look on his face.

Having been in the position of being physically unable to contribute to my team in a big game, I'm willing to cut Nomar all the slack in the world on this. Some people just aren't wired to turn into cheerleaders when they can't make a tangible contribution.
   34. scotto Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:12 PM (#712368)
And I meant earlier in the game, not inning. Duh.
   35. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:14 PM (#712372)
It was a very good play; made moreso by the game situation of when the play occurred.

Many shortstops would not have been able to make that play.

That being said, I could've stopped safely against the wall and I don't even know how to properly side.

He risked himself, he risked his team's season and he risked the safety of all the people he unnecessarily jumped on with the play.

How would we feel if he had killed a small child on the play?

He made a nice play, and should feel lucky that he ###### up his face instead of hurting someone else or tearing up his shoulder or something.
   36. The Original SJ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:14 PM (#712375)
Perhaps it would be better to ask how many big-bucks players would do that in a regular season game in July with their team up 7.5 in the standings? It's opinion of course, but I can think of many more that wouldn't than would..


Alright lets not get crazy. I think that Jeter got to that ball and not many others would have because he went all out from the start and took a great angle on the ball.

But I don't think any other SS does the math in his head before going for a fly ball.

I don't think Jeter ever considered the consequences, he just wanted to get the ball.
   37. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:19 PM (#712382)
Put me in the "a good shortstop catches that ball in stride and doesn't do a faceplant" camp. Apparently Jeter went to the Kobe Bryant school of making things look as hard as possible for maximum hype.

It was a nice play, but if you watch much baseball you will probably see a dozen better plays this weekend.
   38. bunyon Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:24 PM (#712388)
Arod's play was amazing. I'd say he's taken to 3B pretty well, based on my very limited observations.
   39. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:27 PM (#712396)
I could've stopped safely against the wall and I don't even know how to properly side

Umm, let's see... no, you couldn't have. There just isn't much room down the lines at Yankee stadium. At first, I thought he should have slid, but after watching it a few more times I really don't think he had time and room for that. The wall is concrete below the padding -- he could easily have broken an ankle or torn up a knee if he slid. The real question is why the hell didn't somebody try to catch him? He was playing at home, after all.
   40. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:30 PM (#712403)
Are you people fricking kidding me?!?! People honestly think that Derek Jeter unnecessarily did a faceplant into the stands just to look cool? Are you all ####### mentally retarded or what? Yeah, Jeter could have easily stopped without going into the stands if he wanted to...so, uh, he WANTED to risk major injury by diving face first into metal seats and bars? People who think that must be the stupidest, bitterest, Yankee-hating stat-head jerkoffs ever.

Derek Jeter can do no right. His offense is overrated, his defense sucks, he's a pretty boy, he's selfish for not moving over, every great play he makes could have been made easily by another shortstop. blah blah blah blah blah.
Whatever, fine. The play was fantastic and dramatic...was is the best play ever?!? Of course not, maybe not the best play in the game. But it was amazing theater, and showed a great player giving his all and sacrificing his body to save a game. WHat in the christ #### is wrong with that?

In closing, please go #### yourselves.
/rant
   41. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:30 PM (#712404)
if you watch much baseball you will probably see a dozen better plays this weekend

I do watch a lot of baseball, and let me just say that you're wrong and you know it. Was it the greatest play of all time? Of course not; not even top fifty or one hundred. But was it a play that anyone else makes routinely? Only a bitter and delusional Jeter-hater would think that.
   42. Antigonos Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:32 PM (#712406)
haha so angry. so very angry.
   43. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:34 PM (#712408)
Arod's play was amazing. I'd say he's taken to 3B pretty well, based on my very limited observations.

And there's no way Jeter makes that play. Clearly, the Yankee braintrust knows something about optimal use of defensive assets that the stat-head community hasn't figured out yet. ;-)
   44. Ephus Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:34 PM (#712410)
I thought it was a great catch in the middle of a terrific game. I expected to check a thread like this today and find it filled with "Jeter should move to CF" comments. Jeter really is exceptionally good at going out on loopers and pop-ups. He might make a great defensive CF in 2006 (when Bernie's contract is finished).
   45. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:35 PM (#712411)
Whatever, I am angry. What a bunch of bullshit. Stick up for your player, Antigonos! Maybe it's residual anger from the Red Sox fans at the bar last night who shouted that they hoped Jeter was seriously hurt when he fell into the stands.
   46. gracefulcubfan Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:36 PM (#712416)
HOW WAS THAT CATCH GREAT? I was watching BBTN and they replayed the "great" catch immediately after it happened. He caught the ball in the field of play and he isn't a good enough athlete to regain control of his body in order to not fall into the stands. This is why I hate sports media. They are as excitable as Britney Spears fans. It was an important catch in that game, and in the whole " Yanks vs. Sox " thing, but it was far from great. It was pretty clumsy, actually.
   47. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:39 PM (#712421)
Well, at this point it's just a "Yes, I can!" "No, you can't!" situation, but I do know from personal experience that my ankles and knees can take the impact of a wall better than my face and arms.

Also, once again, he wouldn't have been jeopardizing the safety of others. But hey, like someone said--it's not like he had time to think this out. Hopefully he will take the time now amidst all the praise to think the situation over in case next time he won't get so lucky...
   48. Antigonos Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:42 PM (#712430)
WJ-

I, of course, agree 100% with you...but your post was funny.

The Jeter bashing on this site is extremly lame. I wonder what the reaction would have been if the situations were reversed and Nomar made the play...Prob a lot of "Jeter would never have made that play" crap...
   49. Mattbert Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:43 PM (#712431)
I wrote, half kiddingly, in the Chatter last night that Pokey would've been camped under that ball and caught it behind his back. Regardless of whether you think a better defensive shortstop would've made that play more easily, it was still an outstanding play by Jeter because it was clearly very difficult for him. That someone else might have done it with less effort does not marginalize the fact that the guy went nuts to the floor at a crucial point in the game. It was a great play, one of many in that game.

Having been in the position of being physically unable to contribute to my team in a big game, I'm willing to cut Nomar all the slack in the world on this.

If Nomar was physically unable to stand up and clap, he shouldn't ####### bother to dress for the game. #### him. I'm not a ra-ra kind of guy either, but I would've stood up in that situation if for no other reason than pure embarassment. I desperately want to remember #5 fondly, but that was ####### inexcusable.
   50. Sam M. Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:44 PM (#712434)
Well, I used to think I could say, "I take a back seat to no one in despising Derek Jeter," but obviously I can't say that any more, because there are some folks who hate the guy a lot more than I do. Part of it, I think, is that some people won't give him his due because they're sick of the media and some Yankee fans giving him a lot more than his due. I mean, I think Bernie Williams has meant at least as much to the Yankee success of the last decade as Jeter, and he gets a LOT less credit.

But still, the fact that he gets the ridiculous Joe Morgan/Tim McCarver treatment is no reason not to give him due credit for a terrific play last night. What I thought was remarkable was his willingness to go full speed, knowing (as a long-time Yankee who knows every detail of that stadium in his sleep) that the result would be to risk injury with a crash into the wall or into the stands. A lot of guys would have "hustled" -- made an excellent effort -- but held back (perhaps unconsciously) from going all-out, realizing that to do so might be ugly.

Anyway, I was impressed. And I still despise him and hope Steve Trachsel nails him in the ribs if he plays tonight. ;-)
   51. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:44 PM (#712437)
He caught the ball in the field of play and he isn't a good enough athlete to regain control of his body in order to not fall into the stands.

One of the stupidest comments in the history of Baseball Primer.
   52. The Original SJ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:45 PM (#712438)
I don't understand, he was running at full speed and had a stride and a half to stop?

I don't know anyone in the world who could have stopped.
   53. gracefulcubfan Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:47 PM (#712441)
Thank you, do I get an award? Maybe a statue of John Kruk.
   54. JC in DC Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:47 PM (#712442)
GREAT POST (#40), WJ. This is ####### ridiculous. It was a great play. He was sprinting, caught the ball extended, and laid himself out to stop. Yeah, he was diving for the photographers and his rep. BS. I don't know when some of you last sprinted, but stopping from a sprint is pretty difficult ("he isn't a good enough athlete to regain control..."). Give me a ####### break. You ever seen a wide receiver run an out? Do they just stop, or come to a stop? Ever seen one crash into someone on the sidelines b/c they can't stop? Yeah, they're not good enough athletes, either.
   55. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:49 PM (#712445)
It was an exciting play by Derek Jeter, but what I think made it "memorable" for the media, is the fact that Jeter ended up getting a number cuts and bruises.

It's not every day you see baseball players getting bloodied up, and that really gave Jeter's play-and-dive more of a visceral impact.

Having said that, it's clear this is not an all-time great play, but an exciting play in a tense game, between bitter rival teams which play in the most dense population area of the U.S.A.

Would it have received the same coverage if it had been a Pirates vs. Arizona game?

Obviously not.
   56. MM1f Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:50 PM (#712449)
Pokey's catch was better, he had to go farther for the catch

They were kissing Jeters ass so much on Sportscenter. Sickening.
   57. SG Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:50 PM (#712452)
The arguing about this play is kind of ridiculous. Does it really matter if other people don't think it was a great play? I saw what I saw, I formed an opinion about it, and that's all that matters to me. To question the athleticism of a major league shortstop is really one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on this site though.
   58. JC in DC Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:51 PM (#712455)
If Trachsel does that, Sam, he'll have to deal with Zimmer..., er, Randolph!
   59. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:53 PM (#712458)
SG,
I'm not arguing about the play, which was more thrilling than it was great. I'm arguing about the people who think Derek Jeter did some kind of Hollywood swan dive for the cameras.
   60. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:55 PM (#712460)
I do watch a lot of baseball, and let me just say that you're wrong and you know it.

Uh, no I don't. ARod made a better play earlier that night. If it's not Jeter in Yankee Stadium, that play turns up somewhere in the middle of WebGems with a sarcastic comment from the host about "that guy might want to learn how to use his breaks".

People who think that must be the stupidest, bitterest, Yankee-hating stat-head jerkoffs ever.


Couldn't care less about the Yankees or Red Sox. I'm more of a National League fan, although I do seem to pull for the Yankees in these situations because baseball just seems more "right" when Red Sox fans are miserable.

But was it a play that anyone else makes routinely? Only a bitter and delusional Jeter-hater would think that.

No quite. You really need to watch some other teams once in a while. Izturis, Furcal, Everett ... hell I like Jose Valentin's chances of making that play without drawing blood.

Like I said, nice play but not "I'll remember where I was" good.
   61. SG Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:55 PM (#712462)
WJ, I understand that. I'm just saying that you are getting angry about the opinion of people whose opinions shouldn't matter to you. If these people refuse to give credit to a play that you think was good, why should you care? Be glad that the Yankees won, which is the bottom line, appreciate what was an outstanding ballgame, and don't let bias or Yankee-hatred affect you. If anything, it should galvanize you.
   62. bunyon Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:57 PM (#712468)
So, is it true that Jeter went home and kicked his dog?
   63. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:58 PM (#712473)
Of course, if Jeter had been playing CF, he would have held on to the ball that Lofton dropped and the Yankees wouldn't have had to go to extra innings... :)
   64. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:58 PM (#712476)
To question the athleticism of a major league shortstop is really one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on this site though.
Even Wil Cordero?
Does versatility in weapons choice count for points? If so, I suppos Jeter should get bonus points for attacking with his own face! The man has no conscious, he must be stopped!

(I agree with you--I never had a problem with Jeter's athleticism, only his decision making)
   65. BobT Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:58 PM (#712478)
I'm in the camp that the biggest play of the game was A-Rod's 5-2 DP that put the brakes to the Red Sox's best chance to win the game without having to use Curtis Leskanic.
   66. gracefulcubfan Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:59 PM (#712480)
How many feet did Jeter run from his position into the stands? 90, maybe. Do you see NFL WRs running 30 yard deep routes and not being able to regain body control after they catch the ball?OR have you never seen an NBA player going coast to coast at full sprint(while dribbling a ball) and being able to turn on a dime. Or soccer players or hockey players at full sprint or skate and then being able to stop and change direction? Jeter isn't a good athelete, but he is a good baseball player. And the catch wasn't great a catch, but it was an important one.
   67. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 04:59 PM (#712481)
but I do know from personal experience that my ankles and knees can take the impact of a wall better than my face and arms

But that wasn't the choice. It was ankles and knees vs concrete wall or arms vs bodies, seats and railings. And like sjohnny said, he was running full-tilt and had a step and a half. The play was analagous to an outfielder running full speed to catch a drive to the warning track, except that there was no high padded fence to run into.

I've decided that you can't possibly believe what you've been writing. Since you must be trolling, I won't respond further.
   68. Urban Faber Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:02 PM (#712490)
i understand your point, but this was a game that didn't boil down to one play.

I agree, Nate, but that's how it happens sometimes. Same with the Fisk HR in the '75 Series, we hardly ever see Evans' catch replays.

And I guess Jeter's faceplant was a better highlight/sound bite than the at least equally important DP that preceded that play.
   69. SG Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:03 PM (#712495)
How many feet did Jeter run from his position into the stands?

Jeter caught the ball, and then took two strides before hitting the stands. Do you really think that someone who is running at full speed can stop in two steps? What are your criteria for determining someone's athleticism? Speed? Hand/eye coordination? Jeter has athleticism in droves. Just because he's not a good defensive shortstop, I don't see how you can say he "isn't a good athlete". I thought your first post was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on this site, but I'd like to retract that. Your next post was even worse.
   70. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:05 PM (#712500)
You really need to watch some other teams once in a while.

Given where I live, I get to watch mostly Orioles and Braves games. I get to see other shortstops a lot more than I get to see Jeter, and like I said way up at the top, I disagree with the assumption that ranging laterally on ground balls and ranging back on fly balls have much to do with each other. Jeter is certainly not the only middle infielder around who excels at one and not the other.
   71. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:08 PM (#712505)
I've decided that you can't possibly believe what you've been writing. Since you must be trolling, I won't respond further.
No, you were right, but I think that your correction--your ankles and knees vs. concrete wall or your face and arms vs. seats, railings and a dozen random fans' bodies makes the decision easier.

I imagine you disagree--that's fine, but I don't see how that point of view is so ridiculous that it must be trolling. I mean, is this the principle you operate under when your car is spinning out of control next to the fairground (concrete wall bad, crowds of fairgoers good)?
   72. JC in DC Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:08 PM (#712506)
gracefulcubfan: Watch these sports more closely sometime. E.g, in soccer, when you sprint hard upfield and then change direction, you must slow down or hop stop and turn. WRs, when they run are either stopped short by the safety smacking them (and the collision of the two shows the redirection of the energy), or they keep running, they don't grab the ball, instantly stop and redirect. That's physically impossible.

Regardless of what I type about that, and what you type, each of your circumstances presupposes a player given space to control his body. In each of those sports, you can see instances analogous to Jeter's, where great athletes don't have the space to maneuver their bodies. Ever seen a football player or basketball player dive out of bounds, b/c they can't stop themselves? Or a hockey player crash or slide into the boards b/c they can't stop themselves? You've only got prejudice to support your case that Jeter's not a "great athlete." It's counter-intuitive and counter what the eyes and stats show.
   73. The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:08 PM (#712507)
Having said that, it's clear this is not an all-time great play, but an exciting play in a tense game, between bitter rival teams which play in the most dense population area of the U.S.A.

I agree with this. It was a good play. It's also incredibly overrated. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

It was one of the 2 or 3 best plays in that particular game, along with Reese's and maybe A-Rod's. It might have been one of the 6 or 8 best defensive plays in baseball yesterday. But that's a far cry from being the greatest play of all time. Saying it's overrated doesn't mean you're saying it's not a good play. All I'm saying is that the fellating of Jeter on Sportscenter, by the New York media, etc., is leading people to think it was a better play than it really was.

There are 8 reasons why the play is overhyped, most of which are irrelevant to how good the play actually was, in and of itself:

1. It was made by a member of baseball's best and most-publicized team, which plays in the biggest media market.

2. It was made in extra innings.

3. It was made against that team's bitter rival.

4. It was made in the course of the most exciting game of the year, which his team eventually won.

5. It was made by the captain of that team, who also happens to be a good player, good-looking, charismatic, and a matinee idol for teenage girls.

6. That player has an established reputation (deserved or not) for making many outstanding defensive plays.

7. He gets style points for the (arguably unncessary) headlong dive into the stands).

8. He got hurt while making the play, and we like to laud people who get hurt doing things.
   74. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:11 PM (#712511)
we hardly ever see Evans' catch replays

Or Carbo's homer.

Do you see NFL WRs running 30 yard deep routes and not being able to regain body control after they catch the ball?

Do you ever see NFL WRs running 30 yard deep routes and then having to deal with a knee high concrete wall two yards away? If they had that kind of body control, they'd never get tackled after a catch.
   75. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:15 PM (#712517)
Jeter is also being fellated by the Boston media this time, who are having a field day going to town on Nomar.
   76. The Ghost's Tryin' to Reason with Hurricane Season Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:16 PM (#712520)
Can anyone tell me what sort of discussion Torre had with him before he decided to remove Jeter from the game? Did Torre ask, did Torre insist, did Derek argue with him? Seeing a replay of him walking off the field, I figured he would insist on staying in unless something was broken.
   77. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:16 PM (#712521)
I often see NFL wide receivers on out routes running past the sidelines and crashing into nets, gatorade dispensers, benches, coaches, etc. Seems to happen every game. They must be really shitty athletes.
   78. 1k5v3L Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:19 PM (#712530)
Seems like half of the posters here want to suck Jeter's #### while the other half want to #### him in the behind. Jeter will feel so proud knowing so many people have man-crushes on him.

Ramble on.
   79. Chris Dial Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:21 PM (#712533)
Actually, Jeter didn't dive over the wall into the stands, his legs thumped the wall, so he let himself fall. It's subtle, but you can here his shins his the pads. All Jeter is going to get there is a torn ACL or worse. It was a great play, and no other SS would have been camped there. Many others make a similar play. You also have to remember, when you say otehr SS would be "camped", they only have to be *faster* than Jeter, not "better". I think all SS would have gone into the stands (that got to the ball). Reese and Izturis ay have gone in more gently (and still hard), but they all go in the stands when the play is that difficult that close to the stands.

Oh, and Jeter's play against the A's ***IS*** one of the greatest defensive plays ever. It can't be over-rated, but it is reasonable to claim it is the greatest defensive play ever because of the stage.

To be clear, even EE's new god Izturis doesn't make the play on Giambi. *NO ONE* makes that play. Not Ozzie, not Aparicio. No one. It's singularly the smartest baseball play I have ever seen. I get chills when I see it. It was just a brilliant play.

Oh, and ARod's DP was better than Jeter's catch. ARod just flipped the ball over Kapler from his knees coll as a mutherfricking cucumber. He didn't rush the throw, even though he was on his knees and it was a HUGE run. HE just flipped it down there to Posada. It was a very good play.
   80. Sam M. Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:21 PM (#712534)
Seems like half of the posters here want to suck Jeter's #### while the other half want to #### him in the behind.

Sounds like a fun night all around.
   81. JC in DC Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:22 PM (#712537)
Eric: I don't think anyone here claims it is the greatest play of all time or even close to that. Nonetheless, you diminish it, and I'm sure it's due to some bias. Reese's play, the actual getting of the out, may - but only may - have been more difficult. But I think Sam said well what was most impressive about Jeter's play:

What I thought was remarkable was his willingness to go full speed, knowing (as a long-time Yankee who knows every detail of that stadium in his sleep) that the result would be to risk injury with a crash into the wall or into the stands. A lot of guys would have "hustled" -- made an excellent effort -- but held back (perhaps unconsciously) from going all-out, realizing that to do so might be ugly.


Yeah, whatever, maybe Izturis or someone you or others here love and is not as glamorous as DJ would have napped under it and reawakened to catch the ball in their teeth. Unprovable, but fun to say if you have difficulty acknowledging anything Jeter does. But, given his "unathletic" ability, it required Jeter to go all out, extend, and risk his body. He did this w/o apparent consideration of the danger. It impressed the players (who may know these things) on both teams. And he held onto the ball.

Pretty good play, I'd say.
   82. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:22 PM (#712540)
I often see NFL wide receivers on out routes running past the sidelines and crashing into nets, gatorade dispensers, benches, coaches, etc. Seems to happen every game. They must be really shitty athletes.

yeah, maybe if Jeter had done a little tap-dance to get both feet down before he crossed the foul line, and THEN crashed into the stands, people would think it was a really athletic play.

Can anyone tell me what sort of discussion Torre had with him before he decided to remove Jeter from the game?

No idea. It seems more than anything like it was Monahan who made the decision. I was hoping Jeter would have batted for himself and squeezed Cairo home.
   83. AndyM Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:25 PM (#712544)
Another reason this play is standing out is the stark contrast between Jeter's all out effort and Nomar sitting on the bench with a sour look on his face. The fact he couldn't be bothered to join his teammates on the rail as the tension mounted is nearly as unforgettable a moment as Jeter's play.

Amen. Both teams playing their hearts out in a game full of dramatic moments and great plays, one of the most dramatic regular season games ever, and what's Nomar's reaction? He just sits in the dugout with the poutiest looking pout you'll ever see at an athletic event. Contrast that to the alleged Pretty Boy who risks major injury to save the game, and you have "intangible" reason #103 for the Red Sox coming up short in almost every important game.

And A-Rod's play may have been "better" than Jeter's, but so what? It amounts to two runs in the 11th vs two runs in the 12th, six of one and half a dozen of the other. Both were game savers.

BTW, who converted that entire Boston team into Jesus pointers? Were they all pointing to the ground at the end of the game, or what?
   84. The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:26 PM (#712547)
Pretty good play, I'd say.

And so would I. In fact, that's exactly what I did say.
   85. The Ghost's Tryin' to Reason with Hurricane Season Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:26 PM (#712548)
I figured it would secure his place in Yankee lore if he followed up the catch with a GWRBI.

I wonder if htere were any second thoughts afte Cairo's hit? I heard Giambi looked bad in his PH AB.
   86. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:26 PM (#712549)
I no longer have an ass, because 78 & 80 made me laugh it right off. Did you guys plan that?
   87. No.19 Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:27 PM (#712550)
I know what you mean, but are there any actual A's fans around here? I haven't seen any.

Double ahem :-)
   88. The Original SJ Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:29 PM (#712557)
Good post tdiEE, many times people (myself included) think being called overrated = totally worthless. That is not the case.

I do understand how people who only watch highlights (sportscenter anchors, national columnists that don't go to every game) think that Jeter is great defensively, he has made some flashy plays in big games. Its ironic then, what I think was his greatest defensive play, his grab of an offline relay throw and quick twirl and throw to nail Timo at the plate in the 2000 WS, is never mentioned in his great plays.
   89. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:30 PM (#712560)
Nonetheless, you diminish it, and I'm sure it's due to some bias.

I love this arguement. You disagree with me, therefore you must have some bias. Very persuasive. Especially effective when coming from Yankee fans who, despite the conversation being about their favorite team, manage to keep their arguements 100% bias free.
   90. Danny Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:30 PM (#712561)
Too funny, Sam.
   91. zfan Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:32 PM (#712566)
There's a video of the play posted on the front page of mlb.com.
   92. Sam M. Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:33 PM (#712570)
Did you guys plan that?

I swear I did not set that up with levski. But it was too good an opportunity to pass up . . .
   93. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:33 PM (#712571)
All I know is that RVD, Terry Funk, Harley Race,Cactus Jack the Sheik, Bruiser Brody, Abdullah the Butcher and Sabu used to get bloodied up in the NWA, AWA MCC, and ECW day in and day out, and they never, NOT ONCE, made the sportscenter highlight reels. Terry Funk once moonsaulted a flaming chair into Cactus Jacks face while Abdullah the Butcher proceeded to open his forehead with a broken bottle...Neery a mention my Stuart Scott.
   94. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:36 PM (#712574)
So that's what you do for a living these days, huh Ron?
   95. The definitely immoral Eric Enders Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:36 PM (#712577)
To be clear, even EE's new god Izturis doesn't make the play on Giambi. *NO ONE* makes that play. Not Ozzie, not Aparicio. No one.

Hey, Chris, while you've got your Carnac turban on, who's going to win the '05 Super Bowl?

Also, I didn't realize Izturis was my new god. Thanks for letting me know. Where'd you get that from? And even if I did think he was a god, why would that be new?

Eric: I don't think anyone here claims it is the greatest play of all time or even close to that. Nonetheless, you diminish it, and I'm sure it's due to some bias.... you have difficulty acknowledging anything Jeter does.

See, this is what chaps my hide. This is such a stupid thing to say. Because I don't think Jeter's play was the best I've ever seen, that means I'm automatically biased against him? I have difficulty acknowledging what he does? Piss off, man. What I've stated here is my opinion of one specific play. (Well, two specific plays, if you count the intro.) Derek Jeter is a great player who will one day be in the Hall of Fame, and deservedly so. That doesn't mean I feel the obligation to publicly fellate him when he makes a pretty good play. I stated my opinion of the play, which you can certainly disagree with -- but why go around making generalizations about people's motives when you don't have the slightest ####### clue what their motives are?
   96. "Catching Dianetics" by Dr. L. Ron Karkovice Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:38 PM (#712581)
Watch old Puerto Rican wrestling videos and try to understand why it's called the Mendoza line and not the Karkovice Line.
   97. Chris Dial Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:41 PM (#712590)
EE,
I see the past, not the future. Would you like to know who won the first Super Bowl?

And you've been touting Izturis pretty high lately (starting with this offseason with your delight on the Dodger defense). He's a fine SS. He's not *that* good.

Sam,
that was, without question, the funniest shot I have ever read on this site. Just a massive roundhouse punch that no one sees coming. Oh, it was great.
   98. The Ghost's Tryin' to Reason with Hurricane Season Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:42 PM (#712592)
Yeah, Ron, I recall your 5 K's in a game a few years back. Is that what you get when you Supersize a Golden Sombrero?
   99. theberle Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:44 PM (#712596)
Posting as Bill Mueller:

I would have slid into the wall.
   100. 1k5v3L Posted: July 02, 2004 at 05:45 PM (#712599)
I second Sam's post (#92). I got here too late to have anything positive/negative to say about the play (I saw the game), so I thought I'd just recap the mood of this thread. Sam's response made me laugh though.
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