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If the Mets traded a promising young player to placate the manager that is a worrisome sign.
I think that's just the space created by the edit link. It only shows up for you.
Best line I have heard in a while in MSM
Just trying to find the silver lining.
the window slammed shut with beltran looking at strike three.
It's like when the Red Sox traded Jeff Bagwell - they went to the playoffs w/ Andersen, and where did the Astros go? Nowhere! Yeah! Count the division titlezzzzzzzzzzz!
Also: Shapiro wasn't going to pay a lot - i.e. Shoppach and Guiterrez - for that muffler?
That trade must have been Slaughtered
Sean Forman doesn't have the keys? That seems... odd.
Definitely. He's got a stopwatch that freezes time allowing him to get under anything hit his way. I'm not sure if that conveys though. If you see Wily Mo at the top of the defensive charts next year, you'll know.
What are the odds that Milledge and other things (frankly a lot of other things) wind up going to Minnesota or Oakland for Santana or Haren?
Seems almost reasonable.
Why do I care about this team?
I'm asking myself the same question.
Are they close in talent and/or expected performance?
This is based on the assumption that the Nationals will not be players in the FA market during the 2008 offseason. I'm pretty sure this will not be the case.
You want a veteran catcher. Sign Yorvit. He even has been to the WS.
Certainly. It's a trade of -$2M for nothing. Always good.
Also, whatever Randolph may think about Milledge, repsonsibility for this rests with Minaya.
Going back to the 1980s as BDM did, I am reminded a little of the Keith Hernandez/Neil Allen trade. If the Mets just wanted to get rid of Milledge, why do it within the division? With the unbalanced schedule, that is a consideration.
That was one of my thoughts, too. Nobody seemed to be biting on Milledge plus Humber... wonder if someone might be intrigued by some of those arms in Vermont?
I can't imagine so, but...
I concur, and it seems like there's a fairly obvious reason why.
Willie Randolph hates black people?
Do you disagree that Church is an above average outfielder?
I liked what I saw in limited action. What am I missing?
I'm sure fans of a lot teams feel that way. The O's could have offered Ramon Hernandez, they could have thrown in cash too. But from what I remember, MacPhail's asking price is a bit higher.
Or does Milledge let them deal one of Pena-Kearns-Maxwell + pitching, pitching, pitching to Minnesota or Oakland?
On a happier note - did you get your seat assignment?
Is he Delmon? No.
He is a 22 year old who was average offensively in 2007, and who can play CF.
He is a 22 year old who can be league average in CF NOW. Even if you assume he never improves and has no upside.
They do have Hill, Bergmann and Chico. With an injury prone Patterson.
Sure they are far away in terms of starting pitching, but they are drafting them in big numbers.
And they have lot of $ to play around with.
Kasten has said he will add the big time FAs as the final step, once the skeleton of a good team is in place.
Yes. Specifically, young ones who listen to hip hop/rap and have/had braids and, worst of all, high five fans after hitting a homer, which is totally worse than every other in-game celebration that already goes on in baseball.
I liked what I saw in limited action. What am I missing?
He is. A plus defender (second tier) in the corners... strong arm, so-so accuracy.
Probably average on his best days in center... terrible on liners RIGHT at him, which are the kinds of plays that stick in people's mind.
On a happier note - did you get your seat assignment?
Well, we know that one of Cordero or Rauch is gone. If the Twins flip Nathan, they'll need a proven closer...
Yep, I got my second choice (which was what I was expecting) sitting in the lower part of the upper deck just past 3B. (I'm as cheap as the Lerners)
He's an above-average defender in a corner, but stretched a bit in center... at the plate he's got a very pronounced power-based platoon split.
He also Ks a lot more than you'd like for a guy without real overwhelming power.
He's a nice piece, but not a centerpiece.
I'm just glad I'm at work right now for fear of burning all of my Mets related items.
And if this means the Nats won't pursue Dukes, so much the better.
Milledge did post a .704 OPS against righties in 2007. I don't think he has shown an inability to hit righties in the minors and it was a small sample.
Right now, Milledge is better, but Delmon has greater potential. Milledge also gains more value if he is played in CF and can handle it.
I liked what I saw in limited action. What am I missing?
Church is a good defender in the corners, and is a very streaky hitter. I am just suspicious of players, whose team goes to great lengths to ignore said person without any given reason.
First, I thought Frank Robinson was a crotchety old bugger, who didn't like Church's attitude, and didn't give a full time job. But when Acta does that too, and plays Casto voer him in LF, you wonder a bit.
I'll drive Chad to the airport if they trade him for Santana (or anything really).
I got my second choice too - lower part of the upper deck, just to the right of the press box. I'm a little bit cheaper than the Lerners.
Nick Johnson is useless.
Milledge, Wily Mo, Dmitri.
a couple of pitchers and the Mets are going to be a 3rd place team.
I can't believe they traded him within their own division too.
Um, come again? If he just goes ahead with the Torrealba deal, then he never trades Lastings Milledge to get a catcher he actually wants! It's obvious he didn't really want Johnny Estrada, and while it's fine to take him on for a few days to get rid of Mota, the problem with that is that it also meant NOT signing Torrealba, which now means losing Lastings Milledge instead. So um . . . the Estrada deal -- in combination with not signing Torrealba leads to the loss of Milledge.
Which makes Omar look massively dumb.
Hello?
Now, someone tell me he can fly.
The Orioles wanted Humber for Ramon Hernandez if you believe what you read, and the Mets told them no.
Apparently Minaya said today that he offered Milledge to Baltimore, but the O's weren't interested.
As an Orioles/Mets fan, I'm having a bad day.
Next year I guess.
But he is not any f****** better than Eric Byrnes. Eric Byrnes got $30M. If Omar is so desperate for a league average OF, sign Jose Guillen. Sign Yorvit to catch.
Brian Schneider is owed $10M in his contract.
UGH.
Did you spell decade wrong?
(I should add, overvaluing Schneider AND undervaluing Castro...)
Good lord. Gomez might be ready in 2009. It'd be a miracle if Fernando is. The last thing we need is Jeff Wilpon's opinions forcing the stupid yet again. We've certainly been down that road before.
Sounds similar to an 04 trade we made, well I feel better now...
You misspelled injured.
Although, it might be time to send my former non-sexual mancrush to an AL team... maybe he's part of a deal with Oakland - he's a prototypical Moneyball guy: good on-base skills, some power, good reasonable contract.
In looking at the Rule 5 draft - maybe the Nats should go and try to strike gold with another player - a first baseman-type: Jamie D'Antona, Eric Duncan, or the like.
And the money they saved on Mota goes to Schneider, so it wasn't exactly giving up a $2 mil promise for nothing.
where is he going to play if/when healthy?
they just signed Dmitri.
he is useless.
Oakland has no place for Johnson. They do have a HUGE GAPING hole in CF.
Ugh.
well, no wonder he and Torre got along so well together!
Next year I guess.
The way they've jerked him around, he's Super-2.
Sam, you are constructing your own narrative here. If this is the sequence of events - then yes, it makes him look massively dumb. But the Torrealba deal exploded for still-unexplained reasons long before we even heard a rumor about Estrada/Mota.
And I think your sequence seems unlikely. For Omar to kill the Torrealba deal at the 11th hour because he had a new chance to get a catcher that he preferred, only to decide a couple weeks later that the new catcher was actually inadequate ... it suggests a level of confusion and rudderlessness that is an issue quite seperate from the shaky talent evaluation on display today.
Arbitration status on Church.
Thanks for the reply. That helps some.
Still, the kid played league-average ball for 60 games last season. This thread will probably have fifty or so "OMFG Omarz pwn3d!1!" posts before we're through. You'd think Omar traded, well, Delmon Young.
Is Milledge a player that you have to see to believe (in)? I've never seen him play. He must have torn the cover off of it in the minors. I didn't look those numbers up.
I'm not at all saying the mourners are totally wrong, but I'm not making the connection between the numbers and the severity of the outcry.
Are you ####### kidding me? MacPhail isn't going to do squat this offseason.
That makes him superfluous, not useless.
There's been rumblings maybe his hip is worse than thought, but if he comes back, he and Dmitri would make a very nice R-L platoon at first base. Heck, maybe punt defense all together and mover Zimmerman to short (he played a bit in 06) and Young to third.
Having too many serviceable parts is never useless.
Hmm, so Estrada is worth less than nothing. Trading Mota for him was still the right decision.
It seems odd to have baseball players whose contracts give them negative trade value. I mean, this isn't the NBA, and Estrada's deal isn't exactly as crippling as Theo Ratliff's. There's no salary cap, just waive the guy already, he's a sunk cost.
Fine. Then do that after signing Torrealba, instead of trading Milledge for Brian Schneider. The Estrada move was NOT smart as a substitute for signing Torrealba if it left the Mets still believing they needed a catcher, which then left them willing to make this trade. You cannot convince me that the Mets are better off with this:
Church
Schneider
Than they would have been with this:
Milledge
Torrealba
Mota
And never having seen or contemplated Johnny Estrada at all. And I say this even though I loathe Mota and am happy to see him gone. I would be glad to erase the whole sequence and start over, sign the stupid deal and overpay Torrealba, if it means keeping Lastings Milledge in the fold.
Why is Milledge's value amongst GMs so much lower than it is amongst "stathead" fans? The guy has tools and stats. You'd think Beane or Epstein or someone would have topped this offer.
Howard, ask Omar if Schneider is going to be the number 1 catcher or if Castro is going to get more playing tim.
Is this even legal?
Whats your home address?
Supposedly the winds will be coming in from center, but compared to RFK, it's a bandbox. The area from CF to the RF gap is as much as 25-30 feet closer in a few spots.
Ask him if he has a time machine. And then if he does, ask him if he's going to use the Time Machine to go back in time and reverse the trade or if he used it to go forward and saw that this was the right trade to make. I think the former is more plausible then the latter because I don't think you can know how the trade will work in the future unless you've already made it.
After some searching, I see it was Nate Silver on Prospectus Unfiltered.
Link
If the Mets non-tender Estrada, they owe him nothing.
Arb status on Church
My personal question- what did the Mets reasonably expect from Milledge in 2008, and were they comfortable with him in RF every day?
does the nanny block the word porn?
EDIT: guess not.
Did Bowden also return the compromising pictures he had of you?
The Mets basically have the same team as 07, and the only improvement will be if pedro is healthy. Anyone thinks this is a even bigger reason for them to roll the the dice and go after Bedard/Santana now? Beltran/Alou aren't getting younger.
Is Milledge a player that you have to see to believe (in)? I've never seen him play. He must have torn the cover off of it in the minors. I didn't look those numbers up.
I'm not at all saying the mourners are totally wrong, but I'm not making the connection between the numbers and the severity of the outcry
Because he is young, going to improve and can play CF?
Someone with a sim video game should propose this trade to the computer and see if they accept it or not.
How did Milledge's off-field foibles factor in?
Not worried about trading him in division?
Still, the kid played league-average ball for 60 games last season. This thread will probably have fifty or so "OMFG Omarz pwn3d!1!" posts before we're through. You'd think Omar traded, well, Delmon Young.
Is Milledge a player that you have to see to believe (in)? I've never seen him play. He must have torn the cover off of it in the minors. I didn't look those numbers up.
I'm not at all saying the mourners are totally wrong, but I'm not making the connection between the numbers and the severity of the outcry.
If you have Player A, let's call him Mastings Lilledge and you're reasonably sure he's going to produce X runs above average next year and might produce X+a large sum of runs in the future and another team has Player B...Cyan Rhurch...and he's a reasonable bet to produce X runs above average next year, but never more, and they offer him to you in addition to Player C...Srian Bchneider...who is a reasonable bet to produce somewhere betwee 0 and a large negative number of runs next year and costs 5 million dollars a year for two more years...you keep Player A.
/run on
Its easier than typing your last name ! And yes, I was referring to you
*Well, not best young player, but best about to break through type player. YKWIM.
You need to ask why would the Mets trade someone who has a chance to be a star for two guys who don't. One of them who hit .230 last year, and the other one who has a tendency to get injured pretty frequently.
eh, doesn't sound like outright anti-semitism to me. Sounds more like ... ya know ... Christian dogma. Its like someone being called an anti-semite for saying that the Jews killed Jesus.
This trade is inexplicable. To think that a couple days ago Milledge had been mentioned for the likes of Bedard, Haren, Santana etc. and now instead they get Ryan Church and Brian freakin' Schneider. That's simply an unbelievable turn of events. Being a Mets fan must be torture. You have all the resources in the world and a GM that has sunk to Krivsky levels. What a waste of time and talent.
No amount of snark can do this trade justice.
Milledge was touted as the best high school position player in the draft, with off the chart tools. And he's produced at every level, including the majors. So combine great tools with solid production at young ages and you have what appears to be a future star. Pretty simple equation.
I'm at work.
His numbers in the minors are good, for his age and level. Just like being league average in MLB at 22 is good.
No, he isn't Delmon. He isn't Justin Upton. He is comparable to Adam Jones. He is comparable to Chris Young.
Brian Schneider is a catcher with the following OPS+ over the last 5 years: 78, 83, 97, 72, 77. So, your typical all glove no hit catcher.
He isn't cheap either: $10M /2.
The outcry? Ryan Church is 29 and marginally better than Milledge. If you squint, maybe 1 win better. Again, this is assuming that Milledge at 22 is fully formed, and never improves.
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