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Friday, November 30, 2007

Newsday: Mets trade Milledge to Nats

The Mets have traded Lastings Milledge to the Nationals for catcher Brian Schneider and outfielder Ryan Church, a baseball official confirmed this afternoon. Milledge was believed to be a major chip in the Mets’ pursuit of an elite starting pitcher this offseason, but that apparently was not the case.

Thanks to Sean Forman.  May the self-immolation begin.

Andere Richtingen Posted: November 30, 2007 at 07:36 PM | 569 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, nationals

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   301. The District Attorney Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:50 PM (#2629844)
I reluctantly have to agree that Omar's "overall record" with the Mets is still positive, but his record since October '06 has been incredibly awful. The only big positive he's had in that time is signing Alou, and there have been many negatives.

it's unlikely that Milledge would have played regularly in 2008, IMO.
Why? I mean besides that the Mets didn't think he was all that great, obviously, but if it had come to that, were they really gonna play Endy Chavez over him? And if they thought he's not a legitimate starter and they're wrong, that shouldn't be spun into a point in their favor.

If the Mets win a pennant in 2008, I'm sure they'll be pretty happy with the deal.
Unless they win by half a game or something, I don't think this trade will have made the difference. Anyway, this does not need to be the Mets' mindset. They have a young nucleus and can expect to contend for a long time. They don't need to load up for one year, and honestly I think in the three-round-playoff era, that's not usually a great idea anyway.

Serious question - would Mets fans have been happier with Flores and Church instead of Schneider and Church?
Sure, "happier."
   302. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:51 PM (#2629845)
Despite this trade, I think Omar is a competent GM at handling the major league team. He has spent his free agent money wisely in general. I'd rather have him spending the Mets money than almost anyone else to tell you the truth. You can say he has only made good deal with GMs that have been fired but didn't anyone else take advantage of these deals? The question that remains with Omar iscan he build a farm system.
   303. formerly dp Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:51 PM (#2629847)
Serious question - would Mets fans have been happier with Flores and Church instead of Schneider and Church?

#### yes!!!!!!
   304. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:51 PM (#2629848)
all of the juicing,
Uh, if that's your worry, wouldn't it make sense for the Orioles to trade for a younger guy whose career postdates the testing era?
   305. HowardMegdal Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:51 PM (#2629849)
Well, Omar didn't convince me.
   306. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:51 PM (#2629850)
I might be mistaken, but aren't the Nationals in the National League? So how does this specific trade hurt anyone except the Mets?

I think the logic is that the entire NL sucks, which is true, and the Mets were the only team with a chance to not be an overhyped AAAA team, which passes the sniff test, and their route to becoming a ML team depended on Milledge developing or being leveraged to get a top player from the major leagues, the AL, and now that can't happen.
   307. HowardMegdal Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:53 PM (#2629852)
Serious question - would Mets fans have been happier with Flores and Church instead of Schneider and Church?

Absolutely! At least you have a catcher of the future.
   308. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:53 PM (#2629853)
I remember when we traded Kris Benson, a lot of people didn’t understand it at the time.


I didn't know Anna Benson qualified as "a lot of people".

seriously, I'm a Met fan I live and work in New York, I know lots of Mets fans, not ONE was sad to see Kris go (some were sad to see Anna go...)
   309. haven Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:54 PM (#2629855)
the Mets were the only team with a chance to not be an overhyped AAAA team, which passes the sniff test

The Mets didn't make the playoffs last year. Why do they pass the sniff test?
   310. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:54 PM (#2629856)
Omar has #### for brains.

I'd rather have him spending the Mets money than almost anyone else to tell you the truth.

And so does Schoenweiss' and Mota's agents.
   311. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:54 PM (#2629857)
Serious question - would Mets fans have been happier with Flores and Church instead of Schneider and Church?


Yes, but I don't think Omar's ego could have tolerated making that trade.
   312. AJMcCringleberry Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:55 PM (#2629859)
I'm sick and I had 3 hours sleep, so I've come to the conclusion this is a hallucination. I'll take a nap and everything will be back to normal.
   313. Loren F. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:55 PM (#2629860)
It may be that Church contributes more to the Mets in 2008 than Milledge would have, but I agree with DA that it will be a marginal improvement over Milledge. However, Milledge will be the better player in 2009, and is likely to be the vastly better player in 2010.

Even if Milledge doesn't develop into a star, and this turns out to be a trade of two journeymen players, then on dollar value and trade potential this is still a trade the Mets lost. And you need to win the small trades as well as the blockbusters, because the small trades are far more frequent.
   314. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:56 PM (#2629862)
So how does this specific trade hurt anyone except the Mets?


because the Mets are the National league.

somewhere, someplace there was a secret vote and all us fans picked ..


x . Metropolitans


as our National representative to lead us out of mediocrity ..

did anybody else get this memo?
   315. Darren Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:56 PM (#2629863)
Wow, this is just awful. It's not quite Giambi/Mabry, but it's nearly as stunning. What a... I mean... wow.
   316. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:56 PM (#2629864)
People are totalling underestimating the Braves. The Braves are going to be really, really good next season. I honestly think I'd take a completely healthy Braves lineup over any other lineup in baseball. Tex, Chipper, McCann, Johnson, et. al is an excellent core.
   317. Darren Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:57 PM (#2629865)
And it's another nice move by Bowden, who I think gets more crap than he deserves around here.
   318. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:57 PM (#2629867)
Here's another thing. The Mets are a large market team. If they needed a crappy catcher and a corner oufielder to hedge their bets against Milledge's development, they could have signed Geoff Jenkins and Michael Barrett and kept Milledge around. The more I think about this trade, the more I'm baffled. Usually, my initial action is extreme and I soften my opinion as I take both points of view on a trade. This one just seems more and more ridiculous.
   319. Boriole Forester Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:58 PM (#2629868)
Uh, if that's your worry, wouldn't it make sense for the Orioles to trade for a younger guy whose career postdates the testing era?


Well sure, but what I meant was that this club can't afford another headcase, pristine or not.
   320. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:58 PM (#2629870)
And it's another nice move by Bowden, who I think gets more crap than he deserves around here.

This is old news. Bowden has earned a lot of respect around here the last couple of years.
   321. zonk Posted: November 30, 2007 at 09:59 PM (#2629872)

If this were my fantasy league, I'm pretty sure this trade would be vetoed by the other owners as being too one-sided.

Someone with a sim video game should propose this trade to the computer and see if they accept it or not


OOTP sez:

That's not fair. You have offer us more. Don't bother me with deals like that.
   322. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:01 PM (#2629873)
Well sure, but what I meant was that this club can't afford another headcase, pristine or not.

What has Milledge done that's been so awful? Does he shoot heroin? Does he beat his wife? It amazes me how reputations about guys are formed and become accepted as gospel with a bare minimum of evidence.
   323. Gaelan Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:01 PM (#2629875)
OOTP sez:

That's not fair. You have offer us more. Don't bother me with deals like that.


That is hilarious.
   324. Jay Is Simply Without Words Today... Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:01 PM (#2629876)
Serious question - would Mets fans have been happier with Flores and Church instead of Schneider and Church?


Absolutely - I'd say the Mets win that trade.
   325. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:01 PM (#2629877)
This is old news. Bowden has earned a lot of respect around here the last couple of years


Yes, but at least Milledge is Toolsy.
   326. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:01 PM (#2629878)
It certainly isn't as good a return as a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later.

LOL. I don't know how many others got the reference, but thanks . . . I needed that laugh.

It may be that Church contributes more to the Mets in 2008 than Milledge would have, but I agree with DA that it will be a marginal improvement over Milledge. However, Milledge will be the better player in 2009, and is likely to be the vastly better player in 2010.

Assuming he stays healthy, Milledge will be a significantly better player in 2008 than Ryan Church. Remember, he won't be playing in RFK, so he won't be hurt by the park (and of course, Church wouldn't have been, either). This trade will be a debacle from Day One, and it will get worse from there. We won't have to wait until any 2010.
   327. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:02 PM (#2629879)
Yes, but at least Milledge is Toolsy.

But is he McClutch?
   328. Darren Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:03 PM (#2629880)
This is old news. Bowden has earned a lot of respect around here the last couple of years.


Oh. I thought people still thought he stunk.

OOTP sez:

That's not fair. You have offer us more. Don't bother me with deals like that.


Get out of my face!

Or going a bit more old school:

Thou art slain.
   329. formerly dp Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:04 PM (#2629883)
If they needed a crappy catcher and a corner oufielder to hedge their bets against Milledge's development, they could have signed Geoff Jenkins and Michael Barrett and kept Milledge around. The more I think about this trade, the more I'm baffled. Usually, my initial action is extreme and I soften my opinion as I take both points of view on a trade. This one just seems more and more ridiculous.

I agree 100%. It is beyond dumb. There's just no logic to it at all. Good teams don't trade top prospects for a Ryan Church, and esp. don't plan on going into the season with someone who hits as poorly as Schiender does as their $1 catcher. There are so many better ways to build a team than this. I can think of 1000. There was no real imperative to deal Milledge, especially not in advance of the winter meetings where you might have a shot at someone offering a better deal. Maybe he killed Pedro's dog or something, but even then you don't trade for a liability, especially one that is completely redundant goven the fact that Castro and Estrada are on the roster.
   330. HowardMegdal Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:04 PM (#2629884)
Assuming he stays healthy, Milledge will be a significantly better player in 2008 than Ryan Church. Remember, he won't be playing in RFK, so he won't be hurt by the park (and of course, Church wouldn't have been, either). This trade will be a debacle from Day One, and it will get worse from there. We won't have to wait until any 2010.

I do think Church will contribute to the 2008 Mets. Schneider blocking Castro will nullify any good feelings from that, however, and Milledge will be a plus defensive CF with a 120 OPS+ next year.
   331. J. Sosa Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:04 PM (#2629885)
re: #303

Fair enough Russlan. I'm just saying, personally, if I were a Met fan, I would feel nervous with Minaya at the controls. Take Dodger fans, at least Coletti hasn't shipped off their main prospects for non star/superstars yet. However much LA fans might be waiting for the axe to drop, it hasn't happened. The same can not be said for the Mets main prospects after today, which I think is a bad sign for the Mets' future.
   332. GM Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:05 PM (#2629887)
Here's another thing. The Mets are a large market team. If they needed a crappy catcher and a corner oufielder to hedge their bets against Milledge's development, they could have signed Geoff Jenkins and Michael Barrett and kept Milledge around. The more I think about this trade, the more I'm baffled. Usually, my initial action is extreme and I soften my opinion as I take both points of view on a trade. This one just seems more and more ridiculous.


This came up in the slotting thread, where Minaya suddenly came to the realization that slot recommendations were just that, recommendations. I think it's finally safe to say that the Mets simply do not have the kind of money most seem to think they do.
   333. David Wrightwing obstructionist Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:06 PM (#2629888)
The NL is a minor league. That's sad.

And yet we still get to play for the same prize. Whats worse for baseball 2 teams dominating a division/league or everyone having a chance, was there a better story in this year's playoffs than the Colorado Rockies? Snuffing out the hopes of young upstarts like the Indians for a payroll heavy team like the Red Sox is good for baseball?

Whats sad is I am the fan of a GM who is just as dumb as the GM he replaced. Maybe we can platoon Ben Johnson with Ryan Church next year and John Adkins can be our setup guy.

As bad as all of this is I'm grateful my team is in the NL East and not the AL.
   334. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:07 PM (#2629889)
You can say he has only made good deal with GMs that have been fired but didn't anyone else take advantage of these deals?


Well other people did take advantage of them as well- which is one of the reason they are ex-GMs


Good moves:
1: Signing Pedro
2: Signing Beltran
3: Trading for Delgado
Really, all those three took was $, Omar essentially used the Wilpon's pockets to outbid everyone else.
4: Benson for Maine and whatisname/ whatisname for Dookie
What else has he done well????

The Colon trade was a catastrophe of Bagwellian proportions- Sizemore, Carlos Lee and Brandon Phillips for 1/2 a season of Colon?

He did get Church and the better Izturis for Stewart
Vazquez for Juan Rivera and Nick Johnson was a decent swap.
Trading Cameron for Nady and Nady for Oliver Perez worked reasonably well in the end
   335. The District Attorney Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:07 PM (#2629891)
Someone with a sim video game should propose this trade to the computer and see if they accept it or not
Playing as the Nats on the easiest difficulty setting, Baseball Mogul said "call me back when you get a clue."
   336. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:07 PM (#2629892)
Assuming he stays healthy, Milledge will be a significantly better player in 2008 than Ryan Church. Remember, he won't be playing in RFK, so he won't be hurt by the park (and of course, Church wouldn't have been, either).

I don't know about this. Milledge posted a .700 OPS against righties last season whereas Church hits righties pretty well. Church can play defense relatively well. I don't hate this deal short-term. Long-term is the problem.
   337. rfloh Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:08 PM (#2629893)
#327

If only Omar had read that thread. He would have been too confused to anything then.
   338. Amit Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:08 PM (#2629894)
" I think it's finally safe to say that the Mets simply do not have the kind of money most seem to think they do."

This is stupid. They're dumb, but they're certainly rich.
   339. HowardMegdal Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:09 PM (#2629895)
What else has he done well????

Nady for Perez/Hernandez.
Assorted spare parts FA signings.
Feliciano back from Japan.
   340. Paul M Hates Krispy Kreme Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:09 PM (#2629897)
Schiender does as their $1 catcher.


Freudian, rotisserie baseball slip?
   341. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:09 PM (#2629898)
I think it's finally safe to say that the Mets simply do not have the kind of money most seem to think they do.


the Mets DO have that kind of money, the issue is how much of that money the Wilpons let Omar play with.
   342. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:10 PM (#2629900)
It certainly isn't as good a return as a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later.

RDF.
   343. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:11 PM (#2629903)
I think it's finally safe to say that the Mets simply do not have the kind of money most seem to think they do.
Oh, they have the money. They might not want to spend it, but they have it.
   344. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:12 PM (#2629905)
2009 ZIPs courtest of Dan:

Milledge 2009: 286/365/500
Top Comps: Rondell White, Andruw Jones (Flood down to 3rd)

Church 2009: 263/344/461
Top Comps: Don Lock, Gus Bell
   345. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:12 PM (#2629906)
1: Signing Pedro

Wait, $14M a year for an average of 120 IP with a 117 ERA+ is a good move? I guess its not terrible, but it's hardly a major plus.

Edit: I suppose there's also this year to judge that signing once and for all.
   346. GM Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:12 PM (#2629907)
the Mets DO have that kind of money, the issue is how much of that money the Wilpons let Omar play with.


Exactly, in the end, they're effectively the same, but I should have made myself clearer.
   347. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:13 PM (#2629908)
He did get Church and the better Izturis for Stewart
Vazquez for Juan Rivera and Nick Johnson was a decent swap.
Trading Cameron for Nady and Nady for Oliver Perez worked reasonably well in the end


Selling high on Seo? Choosing Wagner rather than Ryan? Getting Castro for nothing? Luis Castillo for relatively nothing? He also traded for Livan Hernandez when he was a Giant and that trade was a very good one. He traded Choate for John Patterson.

This is a bad trade. Don't get me wrong. I am not ready to fire Omar because of this.
   348. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:15 PM (#2629909)
Lastings Milledge, from his press conference with the Washington sports media:

Milledge, for his part, said he was happy to be back with Acta. "When I was struggling a little bit up there, and everybody seemed to be against me," Milledge said, "Manny was there for me. He gave me some words of encouragement."


Welcome to the Nationals, Lastings.

Today was a good day.
   349. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:16 PM (#2629911)
Ok, I'm doing my best to delude myself

Milledge = Roberto Kelly
Church = Paul O'Neil (actually by rates stats he's a pretty good match through the same age)
   350. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:17 PM (#2629914)
I don't know about this. Milledge posted a .700 OPS against righties last season whereas Church hits righties pretty well.

Who the hell is supposed to hit the lefties now that Milledge is gone, ENDY F'ING CHAVEZ??? He of the .706 career OPS v. lefties? Now, there's a plan. I think I just threw up a little in my mouth and in my soul.
   351. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:17 PM (#2629916)
Wait, $14M a year for an average of 120 IP with a 117 ERA+ is a good move? I guess its not terrible, but it's hardly a major plus.

Pedro has a 124 ERA+ and has averaged 126 ip as a Met. If he has a good year in 2008, that deal will be a good one for the Mets. He bought the Mets a lot of credibility and it has certainly been better than the Pavano and Clement signings.
   352. VG Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:18 PM (#2629917)
The Colon trade was a catastrophe of Bagwellian proportions- Sizemore, Carlos Lee and Brandon Phillips for 1/2 a season of Colon?

You mean pitcher Cliff Lee, not one-biscuit-from-350lbs Carlos.
   353. aleskel Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:18 PM (#2629918)
It certainly isn't as good a return as a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later.

okay, I'm a big history buff, but I need some help with this joke.
   354. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:21 PM (#2629920)
"When I was struggling a little bit up there, and everybody seemed to be against me," Milledge said, "Manny was there for me. He gave me some words of encouragement."

Great environment for a young player you created, Willie. Nice job. Way to give the kid every chance to succeed as he tries to become a major leaguer.

Backman, McDowell and the boys are smiling, remembering the hatchet job they did on Jefferies back in the '80s in that very same clubhouse. Some things never change.
   355. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:21 PM (#2629921)
okay, I'm a big history buff, but I need some help with this joke.


Another thread (Delmon Young/Garza?) somehow turned into a discussion of whether or not Hitler held up the deployment of the Me-262 and the role of Spanish Pilots (on both sides) in air war in WW-II
   356. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:21 PM (#2629922)
He bought the Mets a lot of credibility and has certainly better than the Pavano and Clement signings.

Good points, both. I still think he needs that good 2008, though.
   357. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:23 PM (#2629925)
It certainly isn't as good a return as a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later.

okay, I'm a big history buff, but I need some help with this joke.


Go to this thread, Comment # 63. All will be clear.
   358. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:25 PM (#2629929)
Another thread (Delmon Young/Garza?) somehow turned into a discussion

it was the sickels:Carlos Gomez thread.
   359. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:25 PM (#2629930)
Who the hell is supposed to hit the lefties now that Milledge is gone, ENDY F'ING CHAVEZ??? He of the .706 career OPS v. lefties? Now, there's a plan. I think I just threw up a little in my mouth and in my soul.

If you are going to make an educated guess about who is going to be a better player, I think it is wise to choose the player that is good against righties rather than lefties. Again, if I had to bet who is going to be the better hitter in 2008, I'd choose Church. 2009 and beyond? Milledge.
   360. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:25 PM (#2629931)
Another thread (Delmon Young/Garza?) somehow turned into a discussion of whether or not Hitler held up the deployment of the Me-262 and the role of Spanish Pilots (on both sides) in air war in WW-II

I think it was a Mets thread of some form and near the end someone said "I hope Omar doesn't read this thread, get confused, and trade Milledge for a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later."
   361. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:26 PM (#2629933)
JP:

Ummm, Paul O'Neill had the passion of a 1000 burning suns. And besides, his step forward was truly exceptional.

But hey, if a Comet can circle the Earth every 100 odd years player advancement like this can happen in New York twice in 20 years. Right?
   362. Loren F. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:29 PM (#2629936)
Not to continue too long on this digression, but I thought Paul O'Neill's step forward had a lot to do with the Yankees allowing him to be a line-drive/doubles hitter instead of the HR hitter Piniella pushed him to become with the Reds.
   363. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:31 PM (#2629937)
Why don't you guys post these inside jokes on the wiki?
   364. aleskel Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:31 PM (#2629938)
but I thought Paul O'Neill's step forward had a lot to do with the Yankees allowing him to be a line-drive/doubles hitter instead of the HR hitter Piniella pushed him to become with the Reds.

that's the story I've heard - Mattingly, Stick Michael and Showalter all encouraged him to go the other way more and focus on long ABs. Ironic, since he was now in one of the best parks for lefty pull hitting.

there was also that "hometown hero" factor, which I think weighed heavily on O'Neill in Cin.
   365. JPWF13 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:31 PM (#2629939)
But hey, if a Comet can circle the Earth every 100 odd years player advancement like this can happen in New York twice in 20 years. Right?


I mentioned that trade because it was ripped by Bill James at the time, essentially he said that if you swap two directly comparable/equivalent players for eachother (which is what it looked at the time- the team getting the player who was younger by 4 years (later it turned out to be only 2 years) won by a mile,

O'Neil of course was that rare bird who both peaked late and had a slow decline
   366. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:33 PM (#2629940)
At least Minaya's having a better day than Evel Knievel.
   367. Jay Is Simply Without Words Today... Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:35 PM (#2629941)
Omar's done a lot of good since he came, to be sure. But let's not forget:

Needlessly trading for Shawn Green
Signing Mota to a two-year deal
Signing Julio Franco to a two-year deal
Allowing Jesus Flores to go unprotected
Continually allowing the likes of Lima Time and other assorted fodder to make multiple starts

Do these things, along with Milledge, outweigh the good moves? Probably not. But they do take away from the good moves because they're rather obvious poor moves that hurt the team. And as much as I generally like Omar, a competent GM simply does not make them.
   368. David Wrightwing obstructionist Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:35 PM (#2629942)
Milledge, for his part, said he was happy to be back with Acta. "When I was struggling a little bit up there, and everybody seemed to be against me," Milledge said, "Manny was there for me. He gave me some words of encouragement."

What you mean just shrugging your shoulders and saying guys have to play better during an epic collapse isn't words of encouragement?
   369. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:36 PM (#2629944)
If you are going to make an educated guess about who is going to be a better player, I think it is wise to choose the player that is good against righties rather than lefties.

Except Church isn't that good against righties, and Milledge destroys lefties. You can't just leave it at that high a level of generalities. Despite Church's advantage against RHP, he had only a 114 OPS+ in 2007 while Milledge had a 105, and to any rational human being has enormous capacity to improve on that.

What this shows me is that Omar Minaya is just impatient. He, and the Mets, are totally unwilling to wait for a player to develop and mature, and to believe in his ability to break out. It was perfectly OK to take blah performance from Shawn Green last year, which was going to get the Mets exactly nowhere except to the end of his contract. But to accept so-so performance from Milledge, which was going to get them to the GOOD stuff from Milledge as the reward for their patience was, apparently, beyond them. So now they'll accept it from Ryan Church because . . . why again? Because he's a more acceptable placeholder for Carlos Gomez or F-Mart than Milledge would have been? Why is that?
   370. Wakefieldfan Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:37 PM (#2629946)
Mike and the Mad Dog are spending their time grilling Omar about the LoDuca non-move. Way to ask the tough questions, guys.
   371. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:37 PM (#2629947)
Needlessly trading for Shawn Green
Signing Mota to a two-year deal
Signing Julio Franco to a two-year deal
Allowing Jesus Flores to go unprotected
Continually allowing the likes of Lima Time and other assorted fodder to make multiple starts


Bell/Ring for trash
Owens/Lindstrom for trash
   372. J. Cross Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:40 PM (#2629949)
Wait, you mean to say that Shawn Green's future doesn't look as good as this????
   373. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:40 PM (#2629951)
Hey, the Orioles have Huff, Millar, and Gibbons to play LF, and Payton in CF. We can't possibly squeeze in Milledge.

(I have to admit, I was totally wrong about those guys; I thought they wouldn't do squat and the Orioles would be terrible in 2007. Boy was I mistaken.)


Oh quit it already. LF blew in 08 for the O's. No one is surprised.
   374. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:41 PM (#2629953)
Mike and the Mad Dog are spending their time grilling Omar about the LoDuca non-move.

Oh, for God's sake. Yeah, because that's the mistake . . . not bringing back Paul ####### LoDuca. What a couple of nimrods. As you can see, other teams have been in SUCH a rush to sweep in and add him to solve their catching problems.

It's nice to know that some people are 100x stupider than the guy running the Mets. Unfortunately, they have a mike and the public airwaves at their disposal.
   375. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:41 PM (#2629955)
On Mike and the Angry Puppy, Omar is currently drawing a parallel between the Benson trade and this one.
   376. The District Attorney Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:42 PM (#2629957)
Who the hell is supposed to hit the lefties now that Milledge is gone, ENDY F'ING CHAVEZ???
Well, Gomez could, if we still have him.
   377. Jay Is Simply Without Words Today... Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:43 PM (#2629959)
Omar sounds more and more like a used car salesman every day. And yes, this is a horrible interview.
   378. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:44 PM (#2629960)
What this shows me is that Omar Minaya is just impatient. He, and the Mets, are totally unwilling to wait for a player to develop and mature, and to believe in his ability to break out.

Omar gets locked in on a "need" and focuses so tightly on it that he loses all sense of proportion between the need and what he's giving up to fill it.

He wanted a "good defensive catcher" to be "strong up the middle" so much that it's puzzling. One can't help but wonder if the pitching staff (read Wagner) got his ear on that one, which is very scary.
   379. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:44 PM (#2629962)
Omar is currently drawing a parallel between the Benson trade and this one.

What is he saying, that the Citi-Wilpons ordered him to get rid of someone who didn't fit the corporate image (Milledge) this time, too, just the way he did in that trade (Anna Benson)? That would be the only parallel I can think of. Might even be honest, too.
   380. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:47 PM (#2629966)
He's drawing a parallel between fan perception at the time. Nobody knew who Maine was like nobody knows Church or Schneider...Yeah, he already knows everyone thinks this is a shitty trade.
   381. Amit Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:47 PM (#2629967)
" One can't help but wonder if the pitching staff (read Wagner) got his ear on that one, which is very scary."

Wagner was quoted earlier this very week as saying he hoped Omar didn't trade Milledge, which seemed promising at the time.
   382. The District Attorney Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:48 PM (#2629968)
That comparison might make a tad more sense if they were GETTING the exciting young player instead of TRADING him.
   383. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:48 PM (#2629969)
What is he saying, that the Citi-Wilpons ordered him to get rid of someone who didn't fit the corporate image (Milledge) this time, too, just the way he did in that trade (Anna Benson)? That would be the only parallel I can think of. Might even be honest, too.

LoDuca didn't fit in and he's gone.
   384. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:49 PM (#2629971)
After listening to Omar on the radio, it sounded to me like he's having second thoughts about this deal. When he verbally expressed that he traded one of the organization's best prospects for an outfielder who hits doubles and is under the team's control for four years and a defensive catcher, it was like he knew how stupid the deal sounded...
   385. haven Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:49 PM (#2629972)
Mike and the Mad Dog are spending their time grilling Omar about the LoDuca non-move. Way to ask the tough questions, guys.

I think the point was that if you sign LoDuca you don't need to make this move. Not that I understand why Omar needed to make this move anyway.
   386. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:49 PM (#2629973)
Except Church isn't that good against righties, and Milledge destroys lefties. You can't just leave it at that high a level of generalities. Despite Church's advantage against RHP, he had only a 114 OPS+ in 2007 while Milledge had a 105, and to any rational human being has enormous capacity to improve on that.

We all hate this trade. We all understand why this is a bad trade. But Church has a .285/.366/.521 batting line against righties the last two seasons in 575 plate appearances. He is very good against righties.

Milledge did post a 105 OPS+ last season but with more AB against lefties than average.

For next season, I think Church is the better player. In 2009? Milledge.
   387. Repoz Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:50 PM (#2629975)
Omar just told M&MD;that he scouted around the "baseball community" and people have told him that Schneider and Church (get ready!) know how to win.

WHERE THE #### WAS THAT?
   388. Swedish Chef Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:50 PM (#2629976)
It's true.

Schneider=Benson
Church=Julio
Milledge=Maine
   389. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:53 PM (#2629977)
I can't believe Mad Dog just took Missouri over Oklahoma!
   390. JJ1986 Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:55 PM (#2629980)
Jesus ####### Christ. This is inexplicable. I hate Omar. I need a new team. The Nationals are looking pretty good.
   391. Sam M. Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:56 PM (#2629981)
Schneider and Church (get ready!) know how to win.

Damn straight. They did 73 times last year alone! What a couple a' winners! Break out the champagne, boys . . . nobody's gonna stop us now! Proven winners, the both of 'em.
   392. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:57 PM (#2629983)
#187: I'm not defending the Mets. I'm just trying to figure out Milledge's value.
#190: I'm not defending the Mets. I'm just trying to figure out Milledge's value.

I love me some copy-paste.

#199: So are you saying he is as good as Delmon Young? I don't think he's shown that.

#201: Adam Jones or Chris Young. Interesting. Chris Young showed some power in 2007, didn't he?

OK, look, Delmon Young just got traded in a deal where he and Garza were the centerpiece players, and people are saying that's pretty close to an even deal. So, what would have been a fair deal for Milledge?

Is the return for Milledge that much worse than what should be expected? I mean, we've got people here saying they want to move out of NYC over this deal. We've got people saying this is one of the five worst deals in recent memory. We've got people totally freaking out.

I'm not saying it was a good deal for the Mets, but is it that bad? Really?

Russlan asked why real-life GMs didn't value Milledge as high as the BBTF community values him. Any ideas on that?
   393. Jimmy P Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:58 PM (#2629984)
For next season, I think Church is the better player. In 2009? Milledge.

I don't even think that. Milledge is good, and if they ever let him play, they'd see that.
   394. Repoz Posted: November 30, 2007 at 10:59 PM (#2629986)
Schneider and Church (get ready!) know how to win

Monationals are 106 games under since Schneider has been with them.

74 under since Church came aboard to teach Schneider how to win at a better clip.
   395. Swedish Chef Posted: November 30, 2007 at 11:00 PM (#2629987)
Sometimes I get the feeling that saying that someone "knows how to win" is a code for something that can't be spoken about in public.

Because it is a pretty meaningless phrase if taken literally, yet so common...
   396. Wakefieldfan Posted: November 30, 2007 at 11:03 PM (#2629991)
I think the point was that if you sign LoDuca you don't need to make this move.


Maybe, but if so they took the most round-about, back-asswards way of making that point. Obviously they don't want to burn their bridges with GMs who are willing to call into talk radio shows, but they made almost no point of saying "Hey. This guy was regarded as one of the best prospects in the game, plays a defensively demanding position, is loved by scouts, is cost-controlled, and put up stats at age 22 in MLB that suggest future stardom. Why in hell did you trade him for a 29-year-old who can't hit lefties and Brad Ausmus mark 2?"
   397. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 11:05 PM (#2629995)
I'm not saying it was a good deal for the Mets, but is it that bad? Really?

The deal sells low, does not upgrade the present, gives up huge potential, and actually takes on salary.

Is there any possible reason this trade makes sense for the Mets?
   398. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: November 30, 2007 at 11:11 PM (#2630004)
398 really puts this whole thing into perspective.
   399. J. Cross Posted: November 30, 2007 at 11:12 PM (#2630005)
#199: So are you saying he is as good as Delmon Young? I don't think he's shown that.

I think right now Milledge looks like the better player than Delmon Young.
   400. Oriole Tragic is totally awesome in the postseason Posted: November 30, 2007 at 11:12 PM (#2630006)
#398: I'm not defending the Mets. I didn't say it was a good trade.

I'm asking if it's really one of the five worst trades in recent memory. I'm asking if people should really consider going all Escape From New York over this deal.
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