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Friday, November 30, 2007

Newsday: Mets trade Milledge to Nats

The Mets have traded Lastings Milledge to the Nationals for catcher Brian Schneider and outfielder Ryan Church, a baseball official confirmed this afternoon. Milledge was believed to be a major chip in the Mets’ pursuit of an elite starting pitcher this offseason, but that apparently was not the case.

Thanks to Sean Forman.  May the self-immolation begin.

Andere Richtingen Posted: November 30, 2007 at 07:36 PM | 569 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, nationals

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   501. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: December 01, 2007 at 02:13 AM (#2630229)
   502. NTNgod Posted: December 01, 2007 at 02:16 AM (#2630232)

What makes you conclude Milledge can't play centerfield? The Nats are playing him there.


There's been a bunch of reports that other teams didn't see him as a MLB CFer defensively, and FWIW, the NY Times article on the trade mentions that the Mets didn't see him as one, either (not that the Mets had a spot for him there, of course)
   503. Chris Needham Posted: December 01, 2007 at 02:20 AM (#2630235)
Which is odd, because one of the reasons that they dicked Church around so much was the strange sort of fetish they've had for centerfield defense.

We'll find out one way or another. Worse case, Kearns slides over to center and Milledge slots in right.
   504. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: December 01, 2007 at 02:29 AM (#2630241)
I think Marquis Grissom is a good comp, except less speed and more power.
   505. Srul Itza Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:23 AM (#2630298)
469. shoewizard Posted: November 30, 2007 at 06:50 PM (#2630131)

[snip] . . .

I'm not justifying the trade, but I honestly always thought Milledge was overrated.


You might be right, except for one thing.

I've been following the Mets for some 40 years.

I have lost track of all the good and really good players they have traded away for next to nothing.

It really does not matter what anyone here might have thought about Milledge, the mere fact that they traded him guarantees that his downside is Amos Otis/Ken Singleton, and that Ryan Church will either turn into Joe Foy or be out of the league with an injury within 2 years.

As someone once said, Life isn't one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over.

This ends badly. Count on it.
   506. haven Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:35 AM (#2630312)
I have lost track of all the good and really good players they have traded away for next to nothing.

It really does not matter what anyone here might have thought about Milledge, the mere fact that they traded him guarantees that his downside is Amos Otis/Ken Singleton, and that Ryan Church will either turn into Joe Foy or be out of the league with an injury within 2 years.

As someone once said, Life isn't one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over.

This ends badly. Count on it.

I think this has a good chance of ending badly, but I don't buy into this "woe is me" kind of argument. This will end badly (or not) on it's own merits with nothing to do with past Mets mistakes.
   507. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:40 AM (#2630317)
Gotta admit this is almost a sign of spring. You know it's an offseason when the first Mets fan cries out in anguish.

Or something like that. I'm somewhat intoxicated and possibly writing gibberish.

Or perhaps not....
   508. PerroX Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:40 AM (#2630318)
haven --

It's past your bedtime. Go brush your teeth.
   509. Sam M. Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:47 AM (#2630327)
Gotta admit this is almost a sign of spring. You know it's an offseason when the first Mets fan cries out in anguish.

It's an offseason, for sure. But it's not a sign of spring. It's a sign of a long, cold lonely winter. Sigh.

I don't buy into this "woe is me" kind of argument. This will end badly (or not) on it's own merits with nothing to do with past Mets mistakes.

Ah, a man who doesn't believe in destiny and fate. We shall see.
   510. PerroX Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:56 AM (#2630335)
...a sign of a long, cold lonely winter. Sigh.

Girl I'm in love with is moving away.

Cold and lonely winter, indeed.
   511. JPWF13 Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:05 AM (#2630344)
In 2006, he ranked 21st in the Int. League in OPS

In 2006, among players with 250+ ab, Milledge ranked 4th in OPS+ in the IL
the three players ahead of him were ages 27, 26 and 24 (he was 21)

In 2005 in the FSL, Milledge ranked 32nd in OPS, and later that year, ranked 15th in OPS in the EL

and was younger than EVERY single one above him- the only one close in age was Ryan Zimmerman whose .326/.371/.528 line really beat the snot out of Milledge's .337/.392/.487 line :-)

Milledge's career minor league line is .306/.380/.480- that was compiled in poor offensive environments and when he was young for each league.
IF he'd been drafted by AZ and came up in that system, and was held back a year so he played in AA at 21 and AAA at 22 his line would probably look like .345/.420/590 or something and he would not have been traded for Church/Schneider and/or the equivalent...

He's literally outplayed Levski's beloved Chris Young at every single age and every level, but you have to adjust for their league and park contexts to realize it.

I don't like his injury record and he could certainly go Snelling, but if not Bowden made a great move.
   512. formerly dp Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:15 AM (#2630351)
So that one year run of not being the joke of the league was nice, eh? I really enjoyed 2006, but a lot of it was because I felt that was a team on the verge of a really nice run of winning season. Rooting for a smart team is great, it makes you feel smarter for being their fan. Gratifies the ego. Conversely, rooting for a stupid team...
   513. Amit Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:25 AM (#2630360)
So that one year run of not being the joke of the league was nice, eh? I really enjoyed 2006, but a lot of it was because I felt that was a team on the verge of a really nice run of winning season. Rooting for a smart team is great, it makes you feel smarter for being their fan. Gratifies the ego. Conversely, rooting for a stupid team...


Funny, because that's the main reason this trade is upsetting to me -- it makes me feel stupid for rooting for this team and for In Omar We Trust. This really doesn't make the team any worse for next year (though there's an opportunity cost in that we could have traded Milledge for somebody better) and it's barely a problem going forward -- we have other outfield prospects and corner outfielders are supposedly easy to find. So yeah, BFD on the runs we just lost. I just feel so embarrassed and ashamed.
   514. Chris in Wicker Park Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:33 AM (#2630371)
This offseason is like Tom Glavine's 1/3 on an inning against the Marlins on repeat. Again and again.
   515. Darren Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:33 AM (#2630372)
WTF? Embarrassed? Ashamed? You guys are not the ones making these decisions, it's Omar, the GM of the team you root for. It sucks that he did something stupid but it doesn't reflect on you in any way.

And I think you're being too hard on Omar, even though this was dumb. The Mets fan in 06 probably felt a lot like the Red Sox fan in 04. We have a new GM and everything he touches turns to gold. Well two years later Boy Wonder Theo had a bad run and all of a sudden he didn't look like such a genius anymore. He and his gang righted the ship and were back in it in 2007 though. I expect the same from Omar, as bleak as it looks right now.
   516. Gaelan Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:40 AM (#2630379)
[quoteI think it was a Mets thread of some form and near the end someone said "I hope Omar doesn't read this thread, get confused, and trade Milledge for a German WW2-era bomber, and a Spanish fighter pilot to be named later."]

The fact that Milledge was traded mere days after this joke, makes this joke the funniest joke in the history of BTF.
   517. Sam M. Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:45 AM (#2630383)
This really doesn't make the team any worse for next year (though there's an opportunity cost in that we could have traded Milledge for somebody better) and it's barely a problem going forward -- we have other outfield prospects and corner outfielders are supposedly easy to find. So yeah, BFD on the runs we just lost.

I don't buy this, because I am not nearly as confident about the "other outfield prospects" in the system. I like Gomez and Martinez, and think they are high-ceiling guys, but I have yet to see them prove anything close to as much to me as Milledge did. My confidence level in Milledge is pretty damned high; I think he would have contributed more to the '08 Mets than Church will, and will be an outstanding major league outfielder going forward. Gomez and F-Mart? All flash, and the substance may follow. Or it may not, especially at the plate.

Put it this way: there is no other prospect in the Mets' system -- not one, pitcher or position player -- in whom I had the genuine confidence I had in Milledge. I hope for improvement from Pelfrey; I think Humber can be solid. I think the ceilings for Gomez and F-Mart are very, very high. But Milledge was the one I honestly believed was most rock-solid likely to actually contribute at a star-player level. And he's the one they tossed away. I think that's a big loss, and you can't turn to the likelihood of Gomez and F-Mart filling the gap to say it'll be OK.

The fact that Milledge was traded mere days after this joke, makes this joke the funniest joke in the history of BTF.

As the person who said it . . . somehow it seems considerably less funny to me. :-(
   518. JC in DC Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:45 AM (#2630384)
I'm not going to deny that this is a bad trade, but why think the Mets will be worse next season b/c they don't have Milledge? He did almost nothing for them last year. Won't they be better, in fact? And I don't mean better than they'd be if Milledge were still with them and progressed as y'all expect, I mean better than they were if Church forms part of an effective platoon and gives them more than Milledge did?
   519. formerly dp Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:47 AM (#2630385)
So yeah, BFD on the runs we just lost.

If it was just Church for Milledge straight up, I might agree with you. But Omar committed to a catcher who hits marginally better than a pitcher, assuring us a ton of wasted outs, and also assuring us that Castro will be buried if only so Omar can make the Milledge deal look good.
   520. Amit Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:47 AM (#2630386)

WTF? Embarrassed? Ashamed? You guys are not the ones making these decisions, it's Omar, the GM of the team you root for. It sucks that he did something stupid but it doesn't reflect on you in any way.


I can understand that, and I could have articulated it, but I don't feel that way. The balance of reason certainly favors this point of view, but you spend so much emotion and energy identifying with a team, wanting it to succeed, getting invested in the narrative, thinking about the future, debating with people on this site, and then ... this. This is worse than anything Steve Phillips ever did. He was short-sighted. The accumulation of his moves crippled the franchise within a few years. But he never just got outright hosed like this.
   521. Amit Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:49 AM (#2630389)
But Omar committed to a catcher who hits marginally better than a pitcher, assuring us a ton of wasted outs, and also assuring us that Castro will be buried if only so Omar can make the Milledge deal look good.


This is true.
   522. Sam M. Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:50 AM (#2630390)
Won't they be better, in fact? And I don't mean better than they'd be if Milledge were still with them and progressed as y'all expect, I mean better than they were if Church forms part of an effective platoon and gives them more than Milledge did?

First of all, they don't have the other half of that platoon. Let's see who they have to give up to acquire the guy who can actually hit LHPs . . . .

Second, and more fundamentally, I don't think they'll be better for exactly the reason that I don't believe Ryan Church will give them more -- even in a platoon role -- than Milledge would have. Milledge is going to be a stud, and Omar should not have sold low. If this truly was Milledge's trade value right now, he should have held tight, told Randolph to cut the crap and make the relationship work, and just stuck the kid in RF and sat back. He wouldn't have regretted it.

EDIT: But yes -- it's likely that Church (in a platoon) would give them more than they got from Shawn Green as the primary RFer last year. Is that supposed to make me feel better? Somehow, it doesn't . . . .
   523. JC in DC Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:51 AM (#2630394)
I must admit, btw, I'm very excited to see Milledge play for the home team. The conditions here are ripe for him to become a local star.
   524. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:54 AM (#2630395)
I'm both bemused AND amused to see Mets fans writing to the effect of "ZOMG OMAR MIGHT BE AN IDIOT AFTER ALL!!" As a Nats/Expos fan I've always been a little frustrated with the excusemongering Mets fans engaged in when discussing his tenure as the Expos' GM. "He was trying to win, now!" goes the story. Well that was never a sufficient justification for moves like the Sizemore/Lee/Phillips deal - contraction was NEVER seriously on the table, given the willingness of a number of markets to take the Expos' franchise, so the "no future" excuse is weak - and I'm wondering if y'all might be more inclined to view that trade in a different light now that the scales have seemingly fallen from your eyes.

It gives me no joy to see stalwarts like Sam M. and Russlan (as well as the rest of the BTF Mets contingent) flagellating themselves today, even as a Nats fan. (It's one thing to rub Jesus Flores and Manny Acta in...but this is something else entirely. Like the difference between making fun of a guy when he trips down the stairs vs. when he trips in front of a speeding bus.) If it's any consolation, as someone who has watched every game Ryan Church has played for three years now, you're getting someone who will at least put up solid numbers for you next year. I've always liked Church - he was quite accessible to fans, both in person and online - and he got a hell of a raw deal both from the FO (which refused to give him a regular starting position when he'd long since earned it) and the local media as well. The whole "Jewish" controversy is little more than a sensationalized twisting of Church's naive musings on Christian theology. All he said was, basically, "Gee, it's a bummer that according to my religion, Jews don't go to heaven. I really like them, heck even my girlfriend is Jewish!" Anyone who can twist that into "Ryan Church is an anti-semite" has an agenda.

Still, he is 29 years old. As everyone has already said a thousand times, he'll probably be better than Milledge next year, but the trajectories are going in opposite directions after that. And while Schneider is a great clubhouse guy, an excellent pitch-caller, and still a plus defensive arm, he's worth less than a bucket of spit offensively.

Oh and incidentally, as I look around the baseball blogosphere I still see a number of people scratching their heads and saying, "but...but I thought Jim Bowden was supposed to be like the worst GM in the league!" It's even turned up a couple of times on this thread, at least by implication. I only say this because I think you can make an argument that over his last two years with the Nats his moves (given the resources available to him) actually rate among the best. I think Bowden capitalizes on people chronically underestimating him...Tipsy McLeatherpants may seem like a vulgar boob, but his record says otherwise.
   525. JJ1986 Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:54 AM (#2630396)
Hours later the trade makes less sense to me,

Ryan Church is a good player. He's a good defensive, okay offensive corner outfielder who can certainly start on a contending team. He might be as good as Lastings next year. Guys like him aren't available for free. But here's the thing. The Mets didn't need a corner outfielder when the trade was made. That means the target in this trade was a catch and throw guy making 5 million dollars a year. That's not a guy you give up Lastings Milledge for. That's a guy you get for free because you agree to take on his salary. Just ridiculous.
   526. Gaelan Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:56 AM (#2630397)
As the person who said it . . . somehow it seems considerably less funny to me. :-(


Yeah, I can see that. But I'm sure somewhere in your heart you can appreciate how your joke has given us all glimmer into the recess of Minaya's soul that would have otherwise remained dark. It's these little things that transform wit into art. I smile everytime I think about it.
   527. Zach Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:59 AM (#2630401)
Maybe Ryan Church will test positive for heroin and crack.



Isn't he a pretty religious guy?


You're thinking of his cousin, Ryan Blackmass.
   528. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:08 AM (#2630407)
The Mets fan in 06 probably felt a lot like the Red Sox fan in 04. We have a new GM and everything he touches turns to gold. Well two years later Boy Wonder Theo had a bad run and all of a sudden he didn't look like such a genius anymore. He and his gang righted the ship and were back in it in 2007 though. I expect the same from Omar, as bleak as it looks right now.


A nice thing to say, but this franchise is doomed.
   529. The Wilpons Must Go (Tom D) Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:23 AM (#2630417)
First of all, they don't have the other half of that platoon.

Willie's not going to platoon. Church will play until a more established veteran comes along.

Gomez and F-Mart?

I consider it unlikely that the Mets will hold on to both of them. These prospects burn a hole in their pocket..

I was hoping to see if Milledge could supplant Jay Payton as the best OF to come out of the Mets organization since Len Dykstra.
   530. Sam M. Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:31 AM (#2630421)
I was hoping to see if Milledge could supplant Jay Payton as the best OF to come out of the Mets organization since Len Dykstra.

Well, technically, didn't Kevin Mitchell (first real experience: 1986) come out of the Mets' organization after Dykstra (1985)? Either way, Milledge will be the best OFer to come out of the system since those two, unless and until Gomez or F-Mart supplants him. You'll just have to see him a few hundred miles down I-95, that's all.

I consider it unlikely that the Mets will hold on to both of them. These prospects burn a hole in their pocket.

They have absolutely no patience at all. I predict neither of them -- NEITHER OF THEM -- plays more than 100 games in the major leagues for the Mets, unless it is spaced over 2-3 years filling in when veterans get injured, before they are each traded.
   531. shoewizard Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:36 AM (#2630427)
In 2006, among players with 250+ ab, Milledge ranked 4th in OPS+ in the IL
the three players ahead of him were ages 27, 26 and 24 (he was 21)


This is not true. Here is the link to the IL Leaderboard for 2006. Milledge had a .828 OPS that year. Using your arbitrary cutoff of 250 at bats, there were 15 players that ranked ahead of him. All of the hitters above him are older than him though.

In 2005 in the FSL, Milledge ranked 32nd in OPS, and later that year, ranked 15th in OPS in the EL


and was younger than EVERY single one above him- the only one close in age was Ryan Zimmerman whose .326/.371/.528 line really beat the snot out of Milledge's .337/.392/.487 line :-)


Now you've gone and done it. Dustin Pedroia was only 21, and blew Milledge away by 38 OPS points. The wrath of the nation will come down upon you.

He's literally outplayed Levski's beloved Chris Young at every single age and every level, but you have to adjust for their league and park contexts to realize it.


You are the second person that has brought up Chris Young in such a way as to make it some sort of "come back" This conversation is about Lastings Milledge, and whether or not he is overrated. Try to stay focused, will ya? I may be totally wrong about Milledge, I am open to that possibility. Nobody here has a crystal ball. Some opinions are more informed than others, and I may not have the most informed opinion. Thats fine. I do the best I can.

About the only credentials I have, (and I admit it's not much) is that in 20 years of playing roto, I've only finished out of the money 3 times. And one of those was 1994.
   532. Sam M. Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:41 AM (#2630435)
I predict neither of them -- NEITHER OF THEM -- plays more than 100 games in the major leagues for the Mets, unless it is spaced over 2-3 years filling in when veterans get injured, before they are each traded.

And the first hints that Gomez will follow Milledge out the door are already in. In this Newsday article on the Milledge deal, get this little nugget:

Before making Friday's trade, Minaya called other potential trade partners and was told that dealing Milledge to the Nationals would not hinder the Mets' chances of obtaining a front-line starter. Carlos Gomez is the young outfielder other teams want.

Said Minaya, "We were told that if we were to move Lastings, we have enough talent in our system to be able to complete deals for the guys we're talking about."


Lastings is gone. Gomez is next. F-Mart, don't get too comfy. We don't grow prospects to play 'em in this organization. Not any more.
   533. unemployed Jeff Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:44 AM (#2630438)
The interview with Minaya on Mike and the Mad Dog is hilarious; one of the last question is great. He's asked whether a year ago he would've been happy if he was told he'd trade Milledge for a 30+ catcher and 29yr old OF, and just stammers out an answer. I really feel like during the course of the interview he realizes he made a giant mistake.

As has been said, the only explanation is a completely myopic focus on holes, and ignoring the cost. It's impossible to justify. Even if Milledge walks in front of a bus tomorrow, the salaries alone of Church + Schneider are barely less then their worth. Just horrible.
   534. TerpNats Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:46 AM (#2630439)
I was hoping to see if Milledge could supplant Jay Payton as the best OF to come out of the Mets organization since Len Dykstra.
In other words, is Ryan Church this generation's Juan Samuel?
   535. PerroX Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:55 AM (#2630449)
The NYT headline reads: Mets Trade Milledge and Fill Two Holes

The image that popped in my head is the fresh graves of Minaya and Randolph.
   536. NTNgod Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:58 AM (#2630450)
So, to recap, the 2008 Mets lineup, as of right now, looks like this (age as of July 1, 2008 used):

C - Schneider (31)/Castro (32)
1B - Delgado (35)
2B - Castillo (32)
SS - Reyes (25)
3B - Wright (25)
LF - Alou (40, July 3rd is his birthday)/Chavez (30)
CF - Beltran (31)
RF - Church (29)

They've gotten younger behind the plate compared to 2007, and in RF, but not by as much as if Milledge had been given the job.
   537. Benji Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:21 AM (#2630464)
As much as I'd love to help bash Minaya, this trade looks to me to be a Wilpon special. With all that horseshit about "image", you just KNEW Milledge was a goner. Thats without throwing in the carping of the disgusting SNY crew and columnists. One of our Albany radio intellects raved about the deal, because "obviously Milledge will self-destruct and be out of baseball". Based on what? Cornrows? Enthusiasm?

I HATE TRADES.
   538. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:29 AM (#2630475)
step right up and greet .. .. .. the mets.
   539. PerroX Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:36 AM (#2630483)
If you like this trade, you should be sterilized.
   540. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:39 AM (#2630484)
Benji, even if it is the Wankpons who pushed for Milledge to go. You would have thought that Minaya could have done better, than those two scrubs from DC, right?
   541. Orange & Blue Velvet Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:44 AM (#2630486)
With all that horseshit about "image", you just KNEW Milledge was a goner.

I guess that means Jose Reyes is next...
   542. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:46 AM (#2630487)
You would have thought that Minaya could have done better, than those two scrubs from DC, right?

oh no doubt ..
and to think, the winter meetings begin .. when?
   543. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:51 AM (#2630490)
In 2006, among players with 250+ ab, Milledge ranked 4th in OPS+ in the IL
the three players ahead of him were ages 27, 26 and 24 (he was 21)


This is not true. Here is the link to the IL Leaderboard for 2006. Milledge had a .828 OPS that year. Using your arbitrary cutoff of 250 at bats, there were 15 players that ranked ahead of him. All of the hitters above him are older than him though.
He said OPS+, not OPS. (I don't know if he's right, but that's what he said.)
   544. Benji Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:59 AM (#2630493)
Sure, I think they could have done better than Schneider and Church. Maybe an expanded deal, bringing back maybe a Saul Rivera and a prospect with the Mets giving them Heilman, who they'd probably make a starter. I like Schneider's defense and Church may be outstanding in a platoon role, but Lastings has superstar potetntial. A previous poster compared this to Otis for Foy. Very apt. Otis had rubbed Hodges the wrong way and Foy "filled a need".

If they trade Reyes, I'm really going to have to consider abandoning them. That would be about 7 straight favorite Mets given away. Ron Hunt, Agee, Seaver, Strawberry,....
   545. shoewizard Posted: December 01, 2007 at 07:41 AM (#2630513)
He said OPS+, not OPS. (I don't know if he's right, but that's what he said.)

Ah...my bad....didn't see the +

I don't know where to find the OPS+ for that league....the BbRef page I linked doesn't have it. I guess he calculated it himself.

thanks Dave, and sorry for the mis read JP. Does this mean I won't get invited to the induction ceremony in 2031? :(
   546. 1k5v3L Posted: December 01, 2007 at 07:49 AM (#2630518)
I think Omar just needed to be patient and he could've actually scored a solid starting pitcher for him. Right now, the dominos on the trade market will fall like this: Santana goes to BOS or NYY; loser of those overpays for Haren or Bedard; and then the team that still has Haren or Bedard will have 2 teams, NYY and BOS, out of the running. Anaheim is probably not interested, focusing on Miggy instead, and Colletti can't tell which of LaSorda's fingers is up his; that might've left the Mets with the best collection of young major league ready pitchers to acquire the starter still on the market. Sometimes (pretty much all the time), patience is a virtue, and Omar just doesn't strike me as the patient type. Then again, fortes fortuna adiuvat...
   547. 1k5v3L Posted: December 01, 2007 at 07:58 AM (#2630524)
Just reading this entire thread more carefully. Some excellent posts.

62. Steve it's a Trachsel Posted: November 30, 2007 at 01:59 PM (#2629517)

Livan Hernandez is next, I'm telling ya get out now before its too late...


Great. First Heyman is stealing my thunder, now Trachsel is pilfering my shtick. The Dbacks offered Livan arbitration today, he's a type B free agent so he won't cost his new team a draft pick. Incidentally, he might be the second or third best free agent starter right now.
   548. 1k5v3L Posted: December 01, 2007 at 07:59 AM (#2630526)
In case anyone is wondering, Levski is stuck in traffic

This is the only thing that's made me laugh since this blackness settled over my soul.


Most enjoyable traffic jam at the Holland Tunnel in my entire life...
   549. Lassus Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:10 AM (#2630533)
To be clear, Levski, it was the concept that it was important for showizard to say where you were and why you weren't here to, er, contribute that was funny. It actually did make me feel better.
   550. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:16 AM (#2630536)
It gives me no joy to see stalwarts like Sam M. and Russlan (as well as the rest of the BTF Mets contingent) flagellating themselves today, even as a Nats fan.

Should I be honored that I am considered a stalwart? Or ashamed that I spend enough time here to be considered a stalwart?

I just hope Met fans aren't too upset. I like most of you guys and don't want you to be upset and I honestly wouldn't follow the team as much if it weren't for you guys. At the end of the day, the Mets are just a baseball team that keeps us distracted from real life. They are a lot more enjoyable a distraction when they are good so this trade sucks. But I hope the Mets are never the best thing going in your lives.
   551. 1k5v3L Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:26 AM (#2630543)
To be clear, Levski, it was the concept that it was important for showizard to say where you were and why you weren't here to, er, contribute that was funny. It actually did make me feel better.


Your post made me laugh as well. Shoewizard called me while I was driving back home and said "Where the hell are you, people on primer are worried something really bad happened to you..."
   552. Шĥy Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:32 AM (#2630549)
From NY Times:

What has stuck mostly with Church were his remarks in a 2005 article in The Washington Post about prayer in baseball, in which he suggested that Jews were doomed because they do not believe in Jesus Christ. Church later apologized, and Minaya said he spoke with Church and a few Nationals executives and felt confident in his character. “There’s no hard feelings between anybody,” Church said.


Just mind boggling. Has Omar not heard of market research? Did he not wonder how all of the Jewish fans of the Mets would react to this? This is probably 1000 times worse than anything Milledge has ever done.
   553. Banta Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:33 AM (#2630551)
Uh, at least Omar didn't trade Reyes for Santana yet.

I've got a lot of reading to do, I see.
   554. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:38 AM (#2630555)
Man, things were a lot brighter with the Mets on September the 13th at this time.
   555. NTNgod Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:43 AM (#2630559)
Man, things were a lot brighter with the Mets on September the 13th at this time.


And what was September the 14th?

A FRIDAY!
   556. J. Cross Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:47 AM (#2630562)
Why do the Mets always do this stuff on Fridays? Now I suppose Omar probably wasn't seeing the obvious parallels to the Kazmir deal when he made this trade but shouldn't he have waited a day.
   557. baudib Posted: December 01, 2007 at 08:54 AM (#2630570)
Well the only thing to really hope for is that Omar trades the rest of the farm system away for Santana and the Mets sign him to a long-term deal.

Because he and Willie cannot be trusted with the futures of Gomez, F-Mart, or anyone else. Might as well get the best pitcher in baseball, if such a deal is even possible anymore.
   558. Ron Johnson Posted: December 01, 2007 at 09:33 AM (#2630587)
How does this trade get made? How did the talk even start?


Bowden's known for leaving one-sided messages in the wee hours.

Or to put it another way, Bowden made a prank call. Omar took him up on it.
   559. Banta Posted: December 01, 2007 at 09:38 AM (#2630590)
Ok, caught up.

As much as I'd love to help bash Minaya, this trade looks to me to be a Wilpon special.


Agreed. Or, perhaps Omar's job security is pretty damn thin. And as has been pointed out in this thread, this trade probably marginally improves the Mets for 2008. Why would Omar care about beyond that if his job could potentially depend on making the postseason this season? Additionally, whereas I think Lastings Milledge is going to be a good player, I don't think we're talking about a spectacular talent here. His power is less than impressive, he's probably not going to be a plus defender, and I tend to put a little bit of credence into the whole "if this is what he settled for, perhaps Milledge's value sucks".

Basically, I think it was a perfect storm of factors that lead to this trade, set in motion by The Collapse. That's why this trade isn't in the same league was Kazmir for me... not that it isn't its own brand of stupid but Kazmir was out of the blue. For quite awhile now, I never could imagine Milledge playing a serious role on the Mets. Sucks that they didn't get anything particularly interesting for him, but oh well. This move was inevitable from the moment that the Mets allowed their own announcing crews to racially slander Milledge. In fact, I recall someone in the chatter speculating that Cohen was ordered to bash Lastings so that Omar could trade him for pennies in the offseason... of course, that doesn't really make a lot of sense, but the lack of support that Milledge had in the organization was disgusting and the fact that I can't honestly say that this trade wasn't substantially motivated by projecting stereotypical racial story arcs onto Milledge is far more disturbing than a lack of a decent return.

Not to be an Omar apologist, but even after considering that, but I don't really expect a trade of this nature to occur again anytime soon. Minaya's done enough to have proven himself competent to me and I really think the Milledge situation was unique and possibly more fragmented than we know.

That said, I'm not gonna allow this trade to stand. Ryan Church should find himself coming down with crippling arthritis any second now... and Blowduca too, just for the ####### hell of it, because you know that little ########### diaperbanging ####### had SOMETHING to do with this.
   560. Boriole Forester Posted: December 01, 2007 at 02:02 PM (#2630640)
Not only doesn't it have merit as a strategy, but it doesn't even have merit as a diagnosis. The Orioles problem for the past 10 years has been exactly the opposite of the one described. With the singular exception of Albert Belle, the Orioles have always chosen character -- or perceived character -- over talent.


Perceived at the time of the signing, yes. But it hasn't turned out that way, has it? Miggy jogs to first on ground balls and makes feeble attempts to snare ground balls, begs off stretching with the rest of the team. Mora ignores signs with impunity and incurs the wrath of teammates (see Payton, Jay) for boneheaded plays. Gibbons juices. Huff spanks pornstars on the air. Highly regarded prospects show up late for ST starts. Your ace starter disappears after starts, refuses to speak to reporters, acts like a jerk when he does, and refuses to pitch until he's 110% healthy. Add to that, the beat reporters write frequently of a fractured clubhouse, one where a large Latino faction is highly distrustful of management -- which lead to or was a large contributor to Perlozzo's demise as they undermined him constantly.

Yes, the roster construction has been horrible. But I don't see how you discount completely the malaise that has hovered around this franchise like a swarm of flies on a pile of...well worn baseballs.
   561. Boriole Forester Posted: December 01, 2007 at 02:23 PM (#2630647)
P.S. Add to the list of characters employed by dem O's, hon:

Jason Grimsley. David Segui. Sammy Sosa. Rafael Palmeiro. Jerry Hairston, Jr. Gary Mathews, Jr. And several media outlets reported that the redacted names in the Grimsley report include Miggy and Brian Roberts, in addition to the aforementioned Gibbons. Kris Benson, although his only crime was marrying a stripper.
   562. MSI Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:26 PM (#2630669)
Ryan Church is way better than a 4th OF. He's easily a starter and hits over 800 OPS in a pitcher's park.
   563. Sam M. Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:43 PM (#2630676)
Ryan Church is way better than a 4th OF. He's easily a starter and hits over 800 OPS in a pitcher's park.

In a platoon role. He has over an .800 OPS against RHP for his career (.833), significantly under against LHP (.723). That .800 OPS "in a pitcher's park" translated into a 114 OPS+ in 2007, and if you try to play him truly full-time (against all the LHPs), that's going to go down, not up.

If a 110 or so OPS+ is "easily a starter" in your book for a right fielder, so be it. I sure as hell don't trade Lastings Milledge for it, and I think it's a marginal player at best, even if he is a strong defensive player and a hell of a guy.
   564. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:54 PM (#2630679)
Why do the Mets always do this stuff on Fridays?


Because there's less of a media machine ready to devour the deal over the weekend, and it's old news by Monday? Just a guess. I can only imagine the three days of #### that would go down in the NY media if this trade happened on a Tuesday and there was nothing else to talk about sports-wise.
   565. rfloh Posted: December 01, 2007 at 03:57 PM (#2630681)
#564

BPro translated Milledge's AAA line in 2006 to an EQA of 299.
   566. Chris Needham Posted: December 01, 2007 at 04:47 PM (#2630700)
Although Church plays in a pitcher's park, it seems that his swing is the kind that's not overly adversely affected by playing there. Yeah, a few more singles dropped in, but his line-drive power wasn't hurt all that much by the place.

He's got a pretty good swing for Shea.
   567. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 01, 2007 at 05:42 PM (#2630718)
That said, I'm not gonna allow this trade to stand. Ryan Church should find himself coming down with crippling arthritis any second now

I don't know if you read #496, but this is really funny.
   568. David Wrightwing obstructionist Posted: December 01, 2007 at 06:06 PM (#2630730)
Obviously had a night to sleep on it and I hope Russlan is right(even moreso than when he calls HRs during game chatter). I hope Church at the very least matches Milledge's output(in 08) and it will be nice to know we might actually have a chance to throw somebody out when they attempt to steal.

I still think its the biggest pile of #### trade I've seen since Kazmir and Willie Randolph is officially dead to me now, he was nailing the casket shut everytime he trotted Mota out there during The Collapse, but now he is officially buried.

I'm trying to temper myself by realizing I love players of Milledge's ilk, because I like to play sports much the sameway, just without the abundance of talent. Driven by emotion and having fun with it.

All I ask is that the country I live in and the baseball team I have loved for 25 years be run by somebody competent. I would even settle for 1 out of 2.

Damn, I need a trip to Vegas.
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