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Tuesday, January 03, 2012

Neyer: Elect Jeff Bagwell To The Hall, And Cooperstown Will Bloom Again

Apparently “Craig” only needs a first name, like Cher, Madonna or Snooki.

This morning, Craig [Calcaterra] wrote a couple of compelling Hall of Fame-related posts.

In the first, he noted that attendance at the Museum is way, way down: more than 20 percent just from 2007 through 2011… In the second, Craig gave some Calcaterrian whatfor and whatnot to three Chicagoland Hall of Fame voters who have (again) not voted for Jeff Bagwell because of suspicions that he used performance-enhancing drugs (not including amphetamines, because hey if Willie Mays used greenies it’s cool)...

While I believe Bagwell should be in the Hall of Fame, I’ve never quite understood the argument that a Hall of Fame voter—if he thinks steroid use is germane—should ignore every scrap of evidence that doesn’t appear in the Mitchell Report or wherever… I believe that it’s intellectually indefensible to disqualify a player solely because you think he used steroids ... but I also believe it’s perfectly defensible to decide for yourself, based on everything you’ve seen and heard, if a player did use steroids.

Some of that makes sense, I hope. And I really didn’t intend to get into this whole thing. Really, I just wanted to express my mild surprise that Craig didn’t make any connection between Hall of Fame voting and Hall of Fame visitors. The Hall of Fame derives 98 percent of it publicity from one thing: new Hall of Famers. But lately—and for some years into the future, I’m afraid—a great deal of that 98 percent is going to be negative. It will be about Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield and Mike Piazza and all the terrible things they did, and there might well be years when literally nobody is elected to the Hall of Fame. You think attendance has been down? You ain’t seen nothing.

The District Attorney Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:50 PM | 240 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, awards, baseball geeks, hall of fame, history

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   1. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4028475)
Mike Piazza


What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do? Other than his "fielding" at 1st base?
   2. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4028481)
Mike Piazza


What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do? Other than his "fielding" at 1st base?

His silence about Joe Posnanski and Joe Paterno was despicable.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4028483)
Bagwell's getting in. Just give it time. He doesn't have an overwhelming case based on traditional stats.

Jeeze, we got to get off this idea that everyone who's hall worthy has to debut with 95% of the vote. That's not have it has ever been.
   4. Hack Wilson Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4028485)
What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?


You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.
   5. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4028487)

You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.


Oh, I remember. That has nothing to do with his playing career though. :-)
   6. alilisd Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4028494)
This is the second time I've seen declining Hall attendance mentioned as if the Hall is dying because of the PED controversy. Attendance is down because this is the worst economy since the Great Depression.
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4028500)
Attendance is down because this is the worst economy since the Great Depression.

Concur. Plus really high gas prices, which has to clobber a place that you basically have to drive 3 hours+ to get to from the nearest major airport.
   8. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4028501)
What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?

Duh.
   9. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4028507)
You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

Pictures of his bacne?
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4028511)
You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

Call they elect Admiral Akbar as a replacement for Mike?
   11. Don Malcolm Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4028525)
Jeff Bagwell is going to bring the masses to Otsego Lake? As I've written, it would be great PR if Bagwell and Biggio went in the same year, that would probably bring a lot of Astros fans to Cooperstown. But Rob is being a bit more, er, "impulsive" than usual when he trots out this headline accompanied by some of his Grade-B hyperbole.
   12. TerpNats Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4028529)
I'm not even sure there are direct flights from Houston to Syracuse or Albany, so I'm wondering how all these Astros fans are going to suddenly emerge on the shores of Otsego Lake.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4028533)
I'm not even sure there are direct flights from Houston to Syracuse or Albany, so I'm wondering how all these Astros fans are going to suddenly emerge on the shores of Otsego Lake.

Fly to NY and drive 4 hours is about the shortest route.
   14. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4028540)
You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.


What about Yun Taragoashi? Do we give him any credit for his Japanese stats?
   15. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4028543)
Are there hourly flights from Kansas City or Dallas or San Diego or St. Louis? Because we've seen pretty big bounces for various induction weekend attendances, built on influxes of visitors from those nearby suburbs of Cooperstown.
   16. AROM Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4028545)
Is the attendance down equally for the induction ceremony vs the rest of the year?

Inducting some more of the most popular guys on the ballot will help induction day. But probably not as much for the rest of the year. I know the Ryan/Brett/Yount class brought tons of people to Cooperstown.

I don't think Jeff Bagwell going on the stage with Larkin and Ron Santo's family is going to have the maximum effect, even if he is the best player eligible.

I'll tell you the two players that I think would be best for Cooperstown attendance, and it's a combination that would probably piss off 95% of BTF for one reason or another:

Jack Morris, Mark McGwire
   17. Ron J Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4028554)
#16 Now that I think about it, won't Santo be a pretty decent draw? Don't know how a popular, recently deceased inductee figures into things but I'd think there are all kinds of Cubs fans who'd want to be there.

As you suggest, it's moderately likely that Bagwell would add relatively little -- and I suspect Walt's right in that Bagwell and Biggio going in together could be a nice package deal.
   18. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4028561)
Induction weekend is hugely important to the Hall's bottom line, and the rest of the year always pales in comparison. Except for the Ripken/Gwynn year, the attendances for those weekends have also been on the decline.
   19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4028566)
Induction weekend is hugely important to the Hall's bottom line, and the rest of the year always pales in comparison. Except for the Ripken/Gwynn year, the attendances for those weekends have also been on the decline.

Seems to me like the Hall has to do some better marketing. More special events, etc.

Why not have weekends where living Hall-of-Famers, or other notable player come to be recognized, with presentations on their careers, etc.? If you want to get fancy, set up tour packages so that a limited number of fans who pay a premium get to meet the players, have a cocktail hour or lunch with them, hear special talks, etc.

Hell, even have Fantasy camps in the summer. Think a little outside the box.
   20. RJ in TO Posted: January 04, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4028576)
#16 Now that I think about it, won't Santo be a pretty decent draw?

I doubt it. While he was very popular, people generally show up to hear the inductees speak, rather than to hear the family or descendants of the inductees speak.
   21. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4028595)
Y'know, Neyer does have a sense of humor. If he titles an article something like "football is easier than baseball" or "Cooperstown must induct Jeff Bagwell to survive", he probably doesn't mean it literally.

I do think Rob simplifies a bit. Players will be elected to the HOF. It's just that guys like Clemens, Bonds and A-Rod won't. Or then again, they might be. Or Clemens/Bonds might not, but A-Rod might. Honestly, who the hell knows. I do feel like eventually, everyone who is a no-brainer HOF based on stats is going to go in. That's the extent of what I'm willing to bet.

What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?
The exact same thing Bagwell did.

A year ago, it seemed to me that Bagwell simply wasn't the type of guy the BBWAA elects on the first ballot, and that people who thought PED affected his vote total were being paranoid. But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue. I think what may have happened is that, through a game of telephone, "These dummies might be voting against Jeff Bagwell because they imagine he did steroids!" became "Jeff Bagwell is 'associated' with steroids!" I really hope that's not what went down, but it very well might be.

I thought it was interesting that Neyer gave some credit to the opposing argument, and stated that if you do believe PED are a disqualifier (which, to be clear, he doesn't believe), it would then make sense to vote against a player whom you believe used them, even without a failed test or other "solid evidence". I think I agree with him on that, but I'm not sure.
   22. Swedish Chef Posted: January 04, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4028640)
"intellectually indefensible"

The problem with internet censoring laws is that they are focused on pirated or illegal content and not the real scourge of the net, bland adverbs that add no meaning. I would gladly support mandatory adverb filtering at the ISP level.

   23. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 04, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4028650)
But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue.


Yeah, but we're also seeing Bagwell gaining 15-20% in his vote, based on Repoz's totals, which is exactly what happens to that sort of guy in his 2nd year before he gets elected in his 3rd or 4th year (e.g., Larkin). I could be wrong, but I still expect the Killer B's to be inducted together next year.
   24. Rafael Bellylard: A failure of the waist. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4028651)
Frankly, I hope the BBWAA refuses to induct anyone for a couple of years. It would force the HoF to either take the vote out of their hands or add enough voters (from players, execs, TV, radio) to get someone elected. I think people like Jon Miller, Bob Costas, John Kruk and Tim McCarver (whether we like them or not) should be allowed to vote.
   25. Don Malcolm Posted: January 04, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4028652)
#17--I'm sure Walt's right, Ron, at least some of the time....but I was the guy who linked the Killer B's in this thread...heck, Walt isn't even in this thread... (yet)!
   26. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4028727)
As others have stated, I suspect the economy/fuel prices/etc. have a lot more to do with declining attendance than anything else.

I've never been there. I can't see making a special trip just to go there. I don't take many vacations, so when I do, they need to be trips someplace where I'm visiting family or an area where there's lots of new stuff to do. If I do end up visiting, it'll be because I'm in NY for some other reason and I've got the free time and rental car to drive that drive. My daughter and her family used to live in Jersey City, but now that they've moved to Maryland I don't even have that excuse.

Maybe I'm underestimating the fun or enjoyment of the visit. I dunno. I just have this impression that I'll walk around for an hour or so, and sure, enjoy myself during that time, but then end up saying...OK, now what?

EDIT: and this may say a lot about the way the HOF is marketed (or not marketed, rather). My son and daughters are both big baseball fans, but neither has any interest in visiting the HOF.
   27. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4028735)
Cooperstown's attendance slide predates the larger economic one.

Re: #23--
The ballots that comprise Repoz's totals disproportionately represent those writers who write and vote sabermetrically, or are at least willing to open up their reasoning processes. If past years are any guide, the dunderhead districts and the old folks' homes are yet to be heard from. Which means that subtler candidates like Raines, Trammell and Bagwell can be expected to see their final numbers drop, as they have before.

I think that Bagwell's rise will be fairly nominal this time. But also, I assume that there's a more than decent chance at a Bags 'n Bigs double-ring ceremony the following year. That's not a good thing. Manufacturing, and then responding to, one's own corny stories has been one of the classic problems with the writers' voting history. As adorable as it would be, waiting for juusssst the right moment to pat Jeff Bagwell on the head would not be praiseworthy. It would be another example of the "it's all about us voters" mentality.
   28. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4028759)
Is the attendance down equally for the induction ceremony vs the rest of the year?

Inducting some more of the most popular guys on the ballot will help induction day. But probably not as much for the rest of the year. I know the Ryan/Brett/Yount class brought tons of people to Cooperstown.

I don't think Jeff Bagwell going on the stage with Larkin and Ron Santo's family is going to have the maximum effect, even if he is the best player eligible.

I'll tell you the two players that I think would be best for Cooperstown attendance, and it's a combination that would probably piss off 95% of BTF for one reason or another:

Jack Morris, Mark McGwire


Just thinking anecdotally I think one of the problems has been the lack of inner circle inductees and the lack of identifiable teams for the inductees. The last "one team player" to go in was Rice and the other inductees (Henderson, Alomar, Blyleven, Dawson) are a bit more nomadic so they don't inspire the level of devotion that Rice or Ripken or Gwynn generated. 2009 also benefitted from the presence of a true inner circle guy in Henderson.

I don't have any numbers to support this but I would bet that one of those two criteria probably exists for the big attendance years. For that reason I think Bagwell (one team) would probably drive attendance more than we might expect. I don't think McGwire really fits either category (is he truly beloved in St. Louis?) and Morris would because I think he is the rare player who has two teams (Detroit and Minnesota) that genuinely love him.

Just off the top of my head; Raines (Montreal though that may not be enough), Larkin (Cincinatti), Bonds/Clemens (inner circle) may well drive big crowds. Presumably geography helps too with the northeast teams driving a lot of attendees.

All this is off the cuff type feelings though, I could be spectacularly wrong.
   29. Srul Itza Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4028773)
Given this statement by Neyer

Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do. He was a power hitter and played during a time when most power hitters used steroids. Maybe that's not completely fair, and I hope I'm wrong. But the guys from that era sort of brought the suspicion upon themselves.


I am done clicking through on his articles. Let someone else add to his page count.
   30. dlf Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4028775)
Maybe I'm underestimating the fun or enjoyment of the visit. I dunno. I just have this impression that I'll walk around for an hour or so, and sure, enjoy myself during that time, but then end up saying...OK, now what?


I went to college about an hour away. A couple of obsessive die hard baseball fans and I would drive over a couple times a year and spend half a day walking through the museum and looking at the different artifacts. Almost without fail, we would run out of time before we would run out of things we wanted to see.

I tend to like museums and can spend quite a while going through anything from fine art to space flight to natural history. So if those kind of things aren't a way you enjoy spending time, my views may be worthless. But I've found every one of my trips to Cooperstown to be worthwhile and I'm looking forward to going back.
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4028776)
Maybe I'm underestimating the fun or enjoyment of the visit. I dunno. I just have this impression that I'll walk around for an hour or so, and sure, enjoy myself during that time, but then end up saying...OK, now what?

I'd say half a day. I went with my Dad for Rizzuto's induction. We stayed one night, spent 3-4 hours in the museum and didn't feel we missed anything.

The plaque room itself is quite boring.
   32. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4028796)
It's a one day experience that takes a 3 day journey.
   33. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4028801)
The plaque room itself is quite boring.


Seconded.

The museum part is fantastic though and I'm not a museum guy at all. The half day estimate is pretty good though. I've done it on my own a few times and my system is to drive out (5-6 hour ride) the night before, get going in the morning with a big breakfast, tour the place then head home stopping for dinner along the way. I like to drive and enjoy the alone time so it works well for me. I can see the half day estimate being a bit light if you are with people, particularly young people who you are trying to educate on the history of the game.

I also went to the induction weekend in 2009 and have to say it was a lot of fun. One of my favorite players as a kid was being inducted and it really was a lot of fun. The ceremony is great and Cooperstown does a wonderful job. It astounds me that the restaurants are able to function. They are busy but don't seem as overwhelmed as I would have expected.
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4028802)
It's a one day experience that takes a 3 day journey.

Where are you coming from, Europe?

But yes, you will spend as much/more time in the car as the museum. It is a lovely area. Easy to combine the HoF with outdoor sports, or some winery tours, or cultural stuff and make a nice 3-day soujourn.
   35. Jacob Posted: January 04, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4028818)
Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do.


If my life depended on it, I would bet that he used (at least once). I still think he should be in the HOF. There's already a handful of steroids users in the HOF anyway.
   36. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4028837)
@29/Srul:

Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do. He was a power hitter and played during a time when most power hitters used steroids. Maybe that's not completely fair, and I hope I'm wrong. But the guys from that era sort of brought the suspicion upon themselves.


What is so offensive about this statement? Neyer isn't arguing for Bagwell's exclusion from the Hall. He's drawing an inference that Jeff Bagwell (a big, pumped up slugger) probably used steroids during a time when most big, pumped up sluggers used steroids. The drugs were illegal and already highly stigmatized (see Lyle Alzado/Ben Johnson/1990 ASCA.) A reasonable person in the late 1990's or early 2000's would have believed that steroid use would lead to ostracization.

Bagwell himself didn't create the current climate of suspicion. History is being kind to Frank Thomas, though. The reason is that he spoke out against steroid use in the sport way before Ken Caminiti blew the lid off this thing.

Bagwell deserves a presumption of innocence, and had I vote, I would vote for Bagwell. However, that doesn't mean that anybody should refrain from making a reasonable inference about Bagwell's choices during the Steroid Era.

@35/Jacob:

If my life depended on it, I would bet that he used (at least once). I still think he should be in the HOF. There's already a handful of steroids users in the HOF anyway.


Not trolling/nagging, but who do you think? Boswell claims there's at least one, and there was an erroneous report some years ago that it was Eck.

---

Increasingly, I think the only plausible solution to the Steroid Era will be a sort of Truth Commission/sequel to the Mitchell Report. I don't much like the idea of that, though.
   37. Srul Itza Posted: January 04, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4028855)
What is so offensive about this statement?


Making accusations based on zero proof is offensive to me. YMMV.

Increasingly, I think the only plausible solution to the Steroid Era will be a sort of Truth Commission/sequel to the Mitchell Report.


Or everybody could just grow up, and get over it.
   38. Bruce Markusen Posted: January 04, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4028860)
If you were to read most of the exhibit labels, you could spend three days at the Hall of Fame--easily. You could also spend one of the days doing research, looking at the newspaper and photo files that are in the library.

I have spoken to many, many people who have taken more than one day at the Museum.
   39. Jacob Posted: January 04, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4028869)
Not trolling/nagging, but who do you think? Boswell claims there's at least one, and there was an erroneous report some years ago that it was Eck.


After looking over the post-90 inductees, I'll list ten:


1.Kirby Puckett
2.Roberto Alomar
3.Carlton Fisk
4.Paul Molitor
5.Nolan Ryan
6.Gaylord Perry
7.Dennis Eckersley
8.George Brett
9.Reggie Jackson
10.Eddie Murray
   40. smileyy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4028884)
The plaque room itself is quite boring.


You'd think they could do something about this. Since a lot of people go to the HOF to see, you know, the HOFers.
   41. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 04, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4028898)
Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do. He was a power hitter and played during a time when most power hitters used steroids. Maybe that's not completely fair, and I hope I'm wrong. But the guys from that era sort of brought the suspicion upon themselves.


What is so offensive about this statement? Neyer isn't arguing for Bagwell's exclusion from the Hall. He's drawing an inference that Jeff Bagwell (a big, pumped up slugger) probably used steroids during a time when most big, pumped up sluggers used steroids.

Yes, and it'd be fine for Ron Paul to speculate on TV that you're a junkie, because hey, he's a libertarian and he wouldn't hold it against you. And besides, what were you doing wearing that long sleeved shirt in July?
   42. Something Other Posted: January 04, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4028913)
A year ago, it seemed to me that Bagwell simply wasn't the type of guy the BBWAA elects on the first ballot, and that people who thought PED affected his vote total were being paranoid. But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue. I think what may have happened is that, through a game of telephone, "These dummies might be voting against Jeff Bagwell because they imagine he did steroids!" became "Jeff Bagwell is 'associated' with steroids!" I really hope that's not what went down, but it very well might be.
So, where's Bags in all this?

Surely he's aware of the allegations. Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here?
   43. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 04, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4028917)
Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here?


Yes, because that worked so well for Roger Clemens.
   44. Lars6788 Posted: January 04, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4028919)
From a year ago...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5963276

A year ago, it seemed to me that Bagwell simply wasn't the type of guy the BBWAA elects on the first ballot, and that people who thought PED affected his vote total were being paranoid. But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue. I think what may have happened is that, through a game of telephone, "These dummies might be voting against Jeff Bagwell because they imagine he did steroids!" became "Jeff Bagwell is 'associated' with steroids!" I really hope that's not what went down, but it very well might be.

So, where's Bags in all this?

Surely he's aware of the allegations. Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here
   45. Esmailyn Gonzalez Sr. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4028920)
Will(ie) Bloom(quist) Again?
   46. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4028938)
What is so offensive about this statement? Neyer isn't arguing for Bagwell's exclusion from the Hall. He's drawing an inference that Jeff Bagwell (a big, pumped up slugger) probably used steroids during a time when most big, pumped up sluggers used steroids


Yes. If you pick a name from that era out of a hat, what are the chances he did steroids? 40%? 50%? 60%? More? That's all Neyer's doing here. Surely people don't think the chances Bagwell used steroids are zero?

It's basically like asking what the chances that Player X played in the National League are.
   47. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4028939)
There's already a handful of steroids users in the HOF anyway.

Not trolling/nagging, but who do you think? Boswell claims there's at least one, and there was an erroneous report some years ago that it was Eck.


There's at least one. I named him in post 80 of this thread.
   48. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:08 PM (#4028946)
What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?

Duh.


I had forgotten about that. Yeesh.
   49. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4028948)
Yes. If you pick a name from that era out of a hat, what are the chances he did steroids? 40%? 50%? 60%? More?

Yeah, it might even be as high as the percentage of lawyers who pad their clients' bills while spending all day commenting on the internet.
   50. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4028952)
Neyer's comment that he thinks Bagwell did steroids is the natural progression of where the crazies have taken us.

All we've heard for the past decade from the crazies was:

* Oh my god, steroids are so bad.
* Oh my god, look at all of the players who are on steroids.
* Oh my god, steroids lead to big numbers and records.
* Oh my god, steroids users are cheaters and frauds.
* Oh my god, this player used steroids; just look at him.
* Oh my god, this player used steroids also; just look at all the home runs he hit.

So now people are coming along and saying, "You're right, pretty much everyone in this era was on steroids. Bagwell was probably on steroids also."

And now the crazies are upset.

And why are they upset? Because if everyone can be assumed to have been on steroids, it was simply the environment in which the game was played, and there's no reason to keep any of them out of the Hall of Fame. The playing field was level, just as it was with amps.
   51. JPWF1313 Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4028953)
So, where's Bags in all this?

Surely he's aware of the allegations. Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here


the problem with this is that usually the people who ask this will be the first ones to disbelieve the guy who does furiously assert his innocence
   52. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4028960)
So, where's Bags in all this?

Surely he's aware of the allegations. Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here?


Would it matter to you if he did?

Clemens did that, and the same people demanding that he do that then used it as further evidence against him. He "stonewalled." He "threw Andy under the bus."

You can't reason with irrational people.
   53. Ron J Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4028964)
Sorry Don. I normally check things like that, but I was sure.

   54. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4028966)
I don't blame Rob for his comment about Bagwell. In fact, I rather think he plagiarized it. Why? Because he's writing at a time when a lot of journalists and authors have been shown to be plagiarists. I don't hold it against him, though. (His style's always been a different matter.)
   55. Walt Davis Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4028975)
I suspect Walt's right in that Bagwell and Biggio going in together could be a nice package deal.

I've said some pretty mean things about Don over the years but, really, you should get banned for something this insulting.
   56. Blubaldo Jimenez (OMJ) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:49 PM (#4028987)
The Rickey has to be a leading candidate to have used, right?
   57. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4028995)
Y'know, Neyer does have a sense of humor.

The problem is that he isn't funny.
   58. Brian Posted: January 04, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4028996)
I believe that it's intellectually indefensible to disqualify a player solely because you think he used steroids ... but I also believe it's perfectly defensible to decide for yourself, based on everything you've seen and heard, if a player did use steroids.


So he's saying you can decide, with zero evidence, that someone used steroids but you can't use that at all in deciding whether to vote for that player. Just keep it to yourself and vote. Bizarre.
   59. Walt Davis Posted: January 04, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4029001)
On Hall attendance ...

current economy aside I'd want to see (a) the long-term time series; (b) the long-term time series of some other stuff to comp it to. I don't know much about the museum market but I assume it's like most of the other cultural markets at the moment -- highly diversified with tons of choice. People don't watch network TV anymore, almost no musician is playing baseball stadiums anymore (unless as a post-game event to get people in to watch the ballgame) or debuting on the charts with 1 million sold in the first week, and if you look hard enough I assume you can find an Irish-Eritrean restaurant somewhere in NY. If it's all trending down in absolute numbers then the HoF trend is just part of the broader trend.

If it's distinct from other similar institutions, then the issue is probably endemic -- location; baseball is a dying game with an aging demographic; whatever.

But folks are right that Bagwell is not gonna make the HoF bloom. And, I know am a broken record on this, the HoF is going to be inducting plenty of folks over the next 10 years or so ... lots of big names, not backloggers ... steroid ban or no, so that's not going to be an issue.
   60. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4029005)
I believe that it's intellectually indefensible to disqualify a player solely because you think he used steroids ... but I also believe it's perfectly defensible to decide for yourself, based on everything you've seen and heard, if a player did use steroids.
Neyer's wording is confusing, but I think what he's trying to communicate is that it's reasonable to treat PED as germane to the HOF vote. It's not something he believes himself, but I don't think it's something he wants to ban other people from doing.

(Obviously, he also is not saying that you should decide that someone did PED based on "zero" evidence. His point is that you can decide it based on circumstantial evidence, i.e. things other than failed tests or confessions.)
   61. Don Malcolm Posted: January 04, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4029013)
I've said some pretty mean things about Don over the years but, really, you should get banned for something this insulting.

Hey, Ron, let's just both get together and ban Walt. After all, a well-programmed computer could take his place without missing a beat. :-)

But also, I assume that there's a more than decent chance at a Bags 'n Bigs double-ring ceremony the following year. That's not a good thing. Manufacturing, and then responding to, one's own corny stories has been one of the classic problems with the writers' voting history. As adorable as it would be, waiting for juusssst the right moment to pat Jeff Bagwell on the head would not be praiseworthy. It would be another example of the "it's all about us voters" mentality.

Hmm...interesting. Are we to assume that the writers conspired to keep Whitey Ford out the first year in order that he and Mickey could go in together? That's the only instance where I can see that the BBWAA could actually be guilty of the actions.

I would be a lot more sympathetic to this position if one or both of the Killer B's didn't belong in the HoF. After all, Bill James himself, the original apostle of the iceberg mentality who wrote his most withering book about the Hall of Fame--even Mr. Ice Pick For A Heart wanted to see Trammell and Whitaker go in on the same ballot. What are you, some kind of film noir fan??
   62. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4029017)
The plaque room itself is quite boring.

You'd think they could do something about this. Since a lot of people go to the HOF to see, you know, the HOFers.


There's not much they can do. It's a bunch of bronze plaques on a long wall. Maybe they can install some swooping NBA laser lighting, and blast "Are You All Ready For This?" Maybe they can rig them to pop back and dispense Pez.
   63. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4029018)
There's not much they can do. It's a bunch of bronze plaques on a long wall. Maybe they can install some swooping NBA laser lighting, and blast "Are You All Ready For This?" Maybe they can rig them to pop back and dispense Pez.


Your suggestion is ridiculous. The answer is strippers.
   64. Srul Itza Posted: January 04, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4029036)
And now the crazies are upset.


I was the first one to be "upset" with Neyer's casual slander. Exactly what in my posting history brands me as a "steroid crazy"?*


*Other than my past insistence that Barry could not have done steroids because he is such a sweet, wholesome and godly man, which is an entirely different kind of crazy.
   65. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4029038)
I hate to say this, but for stupid or boring people, sure, a half day. For ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE reading here, it can be multiple days easy just from the damned library. The head of the library is quite nice, and maybe you can run into Bruce, like I did.

There are also a lot of things to do in the area including opera, art, gorgeous drives, daily multiple youth baseball games, infinite antiquing, swimming, boating, fishing, etc.. I know McCoy has been whining about the location of the Hall forever, but if you can only somehow manage to entertain yourself for one day in Cooperstown, it's your fault, not the Hall's.

I know Gonfalon disputes the economy causes the downtown (I am curious now about specific figures), but a lot of stuff up here that depends on traffic and drive-bys are getting hammered over these last 5 years. Now, whether the economy ever picks up again enough to bring people back, I have no idea.
   66. Brian Posted: January 04, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4029047)
Obviously, he also is not saying that you should decide that someone did PED based on "zero" evidence. His point is that you can decide it based on circumstantial evidence, i.e. things other than failed tests or confessions


So based on what you see (Bagwell is ####### big!) you can label someone a roider and withhold your HOF vote from an otherwise worthy player? How else can you interpret that "based on what you see" line? What other than failed tests or admissions is proof of guilt here? Accusations from a credible source maybe? I really don't know.
   67. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4029054)
I was the first one to be "upset" with Neyer's casual slander. Exactly what in my posting history brands me as a "steroid crazy"?*


I'll exempt you, Srul. I was speaking of the anti-steroids crusaders.
   68. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4029069)
Elect Scott Brosius, Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez and the Hall will bloom again.
   69. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4029077)
I know McCoy has been whining about the location of the Hall forever, but if you can only somehow manage to entertain yourself for one day in Cooperstown, it's your fault, not the Hall's.



Besides the Hall there is nothing unique about that area. You can go and look at old cheese graters virtually anywhere in America.

You're basically describing the Hall as some roadside attraction people stop at on the way to their real destination.
   70. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 04, 2012 at 08:13 PM (#4029084)
I'll exempt you, Srul


Get a room, hippie.
   71. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4029090)
Besides the Hall there is nothing unique about that area. You can go and look at old cheese graters virtually anywhere in America.

Oh please. Pick anywhere in America and I can tell you why it isn't unique. And ignore Glimmerglass all you want, it isn't going away.


You're basically describing the Hall as some roadside attraction people stop at on the way to their real destination.

Considering I just described how you could spent nearly a week there, I think actually that's what you've been describing for years.
   72. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: January 04, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4029099)
The problem with internet censoring laws is that they are focused on pirated or illegal content and not the real scourge of the net, bland adverbs that add no meaning. I would gladly support mandatory adverb filtering at the ISP level.



But then, what will become of my intulectually stimulating posts?
   73. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 08:43 PM (#4029115)
Oh please. Pick anywhere in America and I can tell you why it isn't unique. And ignore Glimmerglass all you want, it isn't going away.

Exactly. Cooperstown is a bajillion miles away from huge chunks of the country. Very few people are going to trek to Cooperstown becuase they can boat and look at some old rocking chairs along the way. Which is why attendance has and will suck. The Hall because of its location is not a national attraction. It never was and it never will be as long as it is in Cooperstown.
   74. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 04, 2012 at 08:52 PM (#4029123)
I know Gonfalon disputes the economy causes the downtown (I am curious now about specific figures), but a lot of stuff up here that depends on traffic and drive-bys are getting hammered over these last 5 years. Now, whether the economy ever picks up again enough to bring people back, I have no idea.

Oh, no, I don't dismiss the effect of the economy. I just noted that the Hall's attendance slump arcs further back than Freddie and Fannie and Bear Stearns.

I actually think the whole "mystery number of fans will stop coming when _____ is blackballed" premise is exaggerated, if not imaginary. But it's not as if Cooperstown is in a fiscal state where there's any possible benefit in giving it the ol' try.

For one, fairly "local" inductee Jim Rice pulled a notably smaller crowd of Sox fans than he would have, had he been elected in 1995. So did 9th-year Gossage. That happens when a player's heyday and his enshrinement are thirty years apart. Suck the enthusiasm out of 6 to 10 fan bases for the next decade, and Cooperstown's economy probably takes the same kind of hit in 2022.
   75. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4029134)
What is so offensive about this statement?


A lot. The simple fact that Bagwell was a power hitter during the steroid era, means he brought suspicion upon himself? Really? I could understand Neyer saying that due to the era Bagwell played and the type of player he was, there will always be suspicions. But how in the world did Bagwell bring it upon himself?
   76. Howie Menckel Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:07 PM (#4029139)

Cooperstown is something like 4-5 hours from the NYC area, depending on your route and how many horses you get stuck behind.

To me, the journey is part of the experience. Your blood pressure should start dropping by the time you get close. I've found the town to be charming. Some of it is just an act, I suppose, but it's a good act.
   77. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4029141)
There's not much they can do. It's a bunch of bronze plaques on a long wall. Maybe they can install some swooping NBA laser lighting, and blast "Are You All Ready For This?" Maybe they can rig them to pop back and dispense Pez.


With today's technology, each plaque could have a tv with it, that displays the players greatest moments if they have film, or have a documentary on the ones who you don't have film on. You have it only listenable through headphones that you can bring in yourself or that you can rent/borrow from the museum etc. Or basically anything that could liven the place up(yep strippers)

The plaques are just a part of the player's history and sometimes there is much more to tell.
   78. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4029146)
Test.
   79. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4029149)
Test.
STEROID test???
   80. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4029160)
Nah, I was having trouble using the forums. I wanted to see if the Mainland was working.
   81. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: January 04, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4029170)
During college, my friends and I would visit the Hall of Fame the last week of each August as we drove up to school before the beginning of the semester. We would check out the museum for the day and then go camping nearby for the night. We got banned from one of the campgrounds for feeding beer to a donkey. Man, that was fun. I don't know what you guys are talking about. Cooperstown rules.
   82. Bruce Markusen Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4029178)
I've never put anyone on ignore, but McCoy is very close to changing that fact. (So he can take some pride in that pending achievement.)

He has been beating this same nonsensical drum for years; McCoy never has anything new to say on the subject and never refutes the counter arguments that have been brought up by many here in the past. He has also insulted Hall of Fame employees without using actual facts to back up his derogatory remarks.

*The idea that the Hall is not a national attraction is preposterous. It is the leading sports museum in the country. It draws more media attention and more fans than any of the other sports museums in North America. Fifty-plus Hall of Famers come here each year, as do major baseball media celebrities, from Peter Gammons to Brian Kenny to Bob Costas. In a more general sense, the phrase "Hall of Fame" has become synonymous with the BASEBALL Hall of Fame.

*The list of things to do in Cooperstown is lengthy: in addition to small scale boating and fishing on Lake Otsego, there is the Glimmerglass Queen boat tour, there are two breweries (Ommegang and Cooperstown), a four-star hotel with amenities in The Otesaga, a championship golf course, the Hyde Hall historical site, ghost tours, historical tours, Doubleday Field, two semi-pro teams in the area, the Clark Sports Center, the Fenimore Art Museum, the Farmers' Museum, the New York State Historical Association Library, the Glimmerglass Opera, and the Fly Creek Cider Mill. That's a diverse set of tastes, from baseball to fishing to farming to fine art to opera to beer.

*Additionally, there is the Cooperstown Dreams Park, which draws 104 teams per week per summer, giving them an opportunity to play in a weekly tournament that is four miles from the Hall of Fame site. In and of itself, the Dreams Park has become a huge attraction, bringing in the youth players and their extended families from late June through the end of August.

With all of these activities available in the spring and summer, it is easy to spend three to four days in the area and still not take part in all of them. So I'd say, yes, there is quite a bit to do here. And that's a fact.
   83. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:01 PM (#4029180)
Well as I haven't actually been, I'm not going to pass judgement either way. I expect I'll make it there at some point, but I do have to somewhat agree with McCoy that its location does it few favors.

I had no idea about the library, though. That intrigues me.
   84. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:02 PM (#4029182)
I actually think the whole "mystery number of fans will stop coming when _____ is blackballed" premise is exaggerated, if not imaginary. But it's not as if Cooperstown is in a fiscal state where there's any possible benefit in giving it the ol' try.

The truth is that nobody here has a ####### clue as to whether bringing in roiders would result in a net gain or a net loss of visitors. The writers should just vote their consciences one way or the other and let the chips fall where they may.

   85. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4029190)
In and of itself, the Dreams Park has become a huge attraction, bringing in the youth players and their extended families from late June through the end of August.

And as I applied for a job there (And as did the Hall, was told to talk to the hand, yay. Actually, the Hall just ignored me.) I can confirm that teams from everywhere across the 50 states have to be turned down. It's quite a facility, and has national cache.
   86. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4029191)
He has been beating this same nonsensical drum for years; McCoy never has anything new to say on the subject and never refutes the counter arguments that have been brought up by many here in the past.

And so have many other people including Calcaterra and yes I have countered the counter-arguments. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean I didn't make them.




He has also insulted Hall of Fame employees without using actual facts to back up his derogatory remarks.

No I haven't. I've been very complimentary of the staff thoughout these conversations.

With all of these activities available in the spring and summer, it is easy to spend three to four days in the area and still not take part in all of them. So I'd say, yes, there is quite a bit to do here. And that's a fact.

And yet barely anybody does it. Put it in NYC and you can go to the opera, a show, the park, million other musuems, a million other historical sites, a million other tourist attractions, has 2 major league teams, hundreds of flights daily, thousands and thousands of hotel rooms, wonderful restaurants, boating, fishing, yada-yada-yada.

Again, the thing is your "quite a bit to do" is not very unique and doesn't actually grab the attention of a lot of would be traveling tourists. For crying out loud you guys are pimping an opera festival!

A family of four looking to vacation somewhere for a week is going to have a lot of places to choose from and Cooperstown isn't going to be anywhere close to the top of the list. And that is a fact.
   87. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4029196)
Put it in NYC and you can go to the opera, a show, the park, million other musuems, a million other historical sites, a million other tourist attractions, has 2 major league teams, hundreds of flights daily, thousands and thousands of hotel rooms, wonderful restaurants, boating, fishing, yada-yada-yada.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

AND

$$$$$$$$$$$$ Honestly. Boating? Good lord.

(Also, fishing? WTF? Are you saying the tourists are going to fish with the homeless guys on the East River? That is not going to be a greater draw than the aforementioned cheese graters, I think.)


The point really isn't that the Hall wouldn't have greater attendance in NYC. The argument is simply that it can survive where it is.


Again, the thing is your "lots to do" is not very unique and doesn't actually grab the attention of a lot of would be traveling tourists. For crying out loud you guys are pimping an opera festival!

It's an opera house and full company. And if that's so crazy, you should take it off your own list.

Honestly, I do wonder if NYC might not swallow the HOF up. I mean, more people care passionately about books than baseball, but not a lot of tourists are going to the awesomely historic main building of the NY Public Library.
   88. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:23 PM (#4029202)
For a place that so many insist is impossible to visit and mostly boring when you DO visit there are sure a lot of folks who get in a tizzy about what faces are on the boring plaques in this museum nobody can get to without bankrupting themselves in the process.

This is so godd*mn dumb.

Honestly.
   89. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4029206)
The argument is simply that it can survive where it is.

Well, that is your argument. That isn't mine. I've been arguing that more visitors would visit the Hall and baseball would be better off if the Hall was in or around a major city instead of being in Bumblefvck, NY. When a bunch of rich people own the organization I'm not worried about its survival.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


And yet more tourists come to NYC in two days than will probably have gone to the Hall in all of 2011.
   90. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4029207)
Bruce: Does the Hall care about the attendance drop that has been reported? If so, how much do they care, and how might they go about trying to address it?
   91. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4029211)
And yet more tourists come to NYC in two days than will probably have gone to the Hall in all of 2011.

I can't even figure out how this is relevant, considering I already said more people would come, simply by default, in NYC.


Bruce: Does the Hall care about the attendance drop that has been reported? If so, how much do they care, and how might they go about trying to address it?

I agree that this is an excellent question.
   92. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4029213)
Honestly, I do wonder if NYC might not swallow the HOF up. I mean, a lot of people care about books, but not a lot of tourists are going to the awesomely historic main building of the NY Public Library.

And yet it probably gets as many tourists visiting it each year as does the Hall in Cooperstown.

For a place that so many insist is impossible to visit and mostly boring when you DO visit there are sure a lot of folks who get in a tizzy about what faces are on the boring plaques in this museum nobody can get to without bankrupting themselves in the process.

This is so godd*mn dumb.

Honestly.


The idea behind it is different than its geographic spot on the map.
   93. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4029215)
And yet more tourists come to NYC in two days than will probably have gone to the Hall in all of 2011.


And the Hof would just be another museum in New York. Why in the world would anyone want to dilute the hof museum by putting it into a major city that is full of the same boring things you see everyday on tv.

Why does everything have to be in a major city? I mean I think the hof would be better served with a closer airport, but I don't see how it could be a better experience with it in a major city.

   94. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4029217)
How it would be better for baseball I can't understand.

You can't understand how more people enjoying the history and experience of baseball would be a good thing?

   95. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:39 PM (#4029220)
Why in the world would anyone want to dilute the hof museum by putting it into a major city that is full of the same boring things you see everyday on tv.

They don't allow cameras in Cooperstown? Is there something in Cooperstown you don't see everyday on TV? Somehow the world has world famous musuems in major cities f or centuries. Does anybody know how they do it? By putting the Hall in NYC you might "dilute" it for 10,000 visitors but you've enhanced it and made it accessible to millions of other visitors.


If the Hall was originally built in NYC and they started to have conversations today about possibly moving it to Cooperstown nobody would go for it.
   96. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4029221)
You can't understand how more people enjoying the history and experience of baseball would be a good thing?


and you can't understand how making it a side visit to New York wouldn't actually diminish the experience?

I mean I seriously as heck wouldn't want to spend induction weekend in New York city. It's ####### crowded enough as it is. We are talking about a family of four weekend would probably be over $300 going with the cheap motel rooms. Forget bringing in your own car, or renting a car. You are going to be forced to use a cab just to go anywhere etc.

I just think that major tourist features should be kept out of bustling cities. The city can't add anything to the experience except headache and tension.
   97. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4029222)
You can't understand how more people enjoying the history and experience of baseball would be a good thing?

Shrug. In New York City, I think it would be MORE a place people went to on their way to somewhere else, as you describe. I don't see how it would somehow grow in significance or relevance. In fact, I really do think it would shrink in those important factors while it grows simply in convenience. Hooray?
   98. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4029223)
They don't allow cameras in Cooperstown? Is there something in Cooperstown you don't see everyday on TV? Somehow the world has world famous musuems in major cities f or centuries. Does anybody know how they do it? By putting the Hall in NYC you might "dilute" it for 10,000 visitors but you've enhanced it and made it accessible to millions of other visitors.


If the Hall was originally built in NYC and they started to have conversations today about possibly moving it to Cooperstown nobody would go for it.


Don't know about that, but my point is that the entertainment aspect of Cooperstown is the laid back nature, the lack of hustling and bustling, the quiet family vacation, even if it's induction weekend. Putting it in New York City would absolutely ruin the uniqueness and the dilute the experience. Instead of a baseball trip, you would have a trip with multiple agendas, instead of leisurely touring the museum, you would hurry through it to make sure you are in time to watch whichever crappy play your wife is forcing you to go.

I don't think you put legitimate tourist goals into major cities or tourist cities. You let the crappy stuff in those cities, casinos, poorly designed zoo's, crappy theme parks that pale in comparison to real theme parks etc.
   99. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4029226)
People go to Induction weekend because of a personal attachment to the player(s) being inducted. It's akin to seeing a child graduate or a spouse receive a professional award.

And the greater the distance from the players career ending to the induction that fan connection wanes.

All this conjecture is speaking to a few stray folks. The bulk will come when players who they know, with whom they believe they have a connection, when those players are inducted people will show up to cheer and enjoy the this festive closure to their fan experience with this player.
   100. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4029228)

and you can't understand how making it a side visit to New York wouldn't actually diminish the experience?


This isn't my first rodeo on this subject. I understand perfectly that some people like the uniqueness and charm of the Hall at Cooperstown.

The city can't add anything to the experience except headache and tension.

Do people not realize that NYC is one of the top tourist attractions in the country and one of the most visited cities in the world? We're not talking about the Blackhole of Calcutta here.

Putting it in New York City would absolutely ruin the uniqueness and the dilute the experience.

For some people it would. Again, the Hall only got about a quarter of a million visitors last year.
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