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Tuesday, January 03, 2012

Neyer: Elect Jeff Bagwell To The Hall, And Cooperstown Will Bloom Again

Apparently “Craig” only needs a first name, like Cher, Madonna or Snooki.

This morning, Craig [Calcaterra] wrote a couple of compelling Hall of Fame-related posts.

In the first, he noted that attendance at the Museum is way, way down: more than 20 percent just from 2007 through 2011… In the second, Craig gave some Calcaterrian whatfor and whatnot to three Chicagoland Hall of Fame voters who have (again) not voted for Jeff Bagwell because of suspicions that he used performance-enhancing drugs (not including amphetamines, because hey if Willie Mays used greenies it’s cool)...

While I believe Bagwell should be in the Hall of Fame, I’ve never quite understood the argument that a Hall of Fame voter—if he thinks steroid use is germane—should ignore every scrap of evidence that doesn’t appear in the Mitchell Report or wherever… I believe that it’s intellectually indefensible to disqualify a player solely because you think he used steroids ... but I also believe it’s perfectly defensible to decide for yourself, based on everything you’ve seen and heard, if a player did use steroids.

Some of that makes sense, I hope. And I really didn’t intend to get into this whole thing. Really, I just wanted to express my mild surprise that Craig didn’t make any connection between Hall of Fame voting and Hall of Fame visitors. The Hall of Fame derives 98 percent of it publicity from one thing: new Hall of Famers. But lately—and for some years into the future, I’m afraid—a great deal of that 98 percent is going to be negative. It will be about Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield and Mike Piazza and all the terrible things they did, and there might well be years when literally nobody is elected to the Hall of Fame. You think attendance has been down? You ain’t seen nothing.

The District Attorney Posted: January 03, 2012 at 11:50 PM | 240 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, awards, baseball geeks, hall of fame, history

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   101. The District Attorney Posted: January 04, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4029230)
We are talking about a family of four weekend would probably be over $300 going with the cheap motel rooms.
Forget that, I don't think $300 over a weekend for four people would get you a cardboard box in NYC...
   102. Ron J Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4029237)
#97 The Hockey Hall of Fame is in Toronto. I'm confident that it does far better there than it would in (say) Rimouski. Roughly the equivalent to Cooperstown I think.

And though I'm a much bigger fan of baseball, I'm far more likely to visit the Hockey Hall of Fame.
   103. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:09 PM (#4029242)
Do people not realize that NYC is one of the top tourist attractions in the country and one of the most visited cities in the world? We're not talking about the Blackhole of Calcutta here.


Do people not realize it's one of the most densely populated cities in the world, especially when you add in the millions of tourists per year? It's also one of the most expensive to visit, and heck it's very possible to have a three hour cab ride going across town. And unlike a visit to cooperstown, where the three hours is wide open road, you are stuck in a tension high stress trip.

Just because something might be more profitable in a major city, doesn't mean it's going to be better.
   104. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4029244)
Forget that, I don't think $300 over a weekend for four people would get you a cardboard box in NYC...


I was going to throw out a higher dollar amount, but I didn't want to sound like I was being an alarmist.
#97 The Hockey Hall of Fame is in Toronto. I'm confident that it does far better there than it would in (say) Rimouski. Roughly the equivalent to Cooperstown I think.



That's great, and nobody on this thread has said anything about it not doing better, just that it may not be as pleasurable experience.
   105. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4029247)
That's great, and nobody on this thread has said anything about it not doing better, just that it may not be as pleasurable experience.

If 400,000 more people visit the Hall a year in NYC than would come to Cooperstown then yes going to the Hall in NYC is a more pleasurable experience for more people than not going to the Hall at all. It is a tradeoff I am willing to make. Have 5,000 people think it isn't as good and have half a million or more people think it is great.
   106. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:26 PM (#4029251)
McCoy has been been very good about responding, so I just wanted to re-post this one to see if he had any thoughts:
Shrug. In New York City, I think it would be MORE a place people went to on their way to somewhere else, as you describe. I don't see how it would somehow grow in significance or relevance. In fact, I really do think it would shrink in those important factors while it grows simply in convenience. Hooray?


   107. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4029261)
Hell, let's just move the Ædicule and the Wailing Wall to New York while we're at it. Why should all those Christians and Jews have to travel all the way across the ocean when we've got the Jersey Turnpike and Amtrak right here in America?

I mean, "tradition" is nice if you're into that kind of thing, but let's get real---this is the 21st century, and those foreign countries are just going to have to get with the program.
   108. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4029269)
Hey, it's OUR game. If they don't like it, they can go back to Russia, or their homeland, Miami Beach.
   109. McCoy Posted: January 04, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4029275)
Shrug. In New York City, I think it would be MORE a place people went to on their way to somewhere else, as you describe. I don't see how it would somehow grow in significance or relevance. In fact, I really do think it would shrink in those important factors while it grows simply in convenience. Hooray?

As I said before I think for some it would shrink but for many others it would allow them to visit the Hall and experience the Hall for the first time or allow multiple trips to the Hall.
   110. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:26 AM (#4029332)
I happen to agree with McCoy. The location of the HOF is a big reason why I haven't gone.

To be fair, I like the city and think it's easy to get around with a tiny bit of effort. Got a smartphone? You can use hopstop or google maps from anywhere above ground. Plus, I live here. It would be convenient if everything that I am interested in could relocate here.
   111. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:59 AM (#4029336)
If 400,000 more people visit the Hall a year in NYC than would come to Cooperstown then yes going to the Hall in NYC is a more pleasurable experience for more people than not going to the Hall at all. It is a tradeoff I am willing to make. Have 5,000 people think it isn't as good and have half a million or more people think it is great


you do realize the cost difference between those two cities that 400k in attendence would arguably barely cover the difference in rent if at all. (actually the more I think about it, the more I think it would require closer to a 1.5mil attendence boost to make it a break even proposition)
   112. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:06 AM (#4029337)
To be fair, I like the city and think it's easy to get around with a tiny bit of effort. Got a smartphone? You can use hopstop or google maps from anywhere above ground. Plus, I live here. It would be convenient if everything that I am interested in could relocate here.


and this applies to tourist how? you expect a typical midwest family to even own a 'stupid' phone for whatever reason just to navigate their one trip every three years to new york? Most real people don't bother with technological crap that really doesn't work as advertised(for the record, unfortunately my current job is to be an android specialist) expecting people to require a 'stupid' phone is just insane for a trip to the hof.

If you don't live in one of the top 20 cities in the U.S. you are seriously wasting money on a smart phone.
   113. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:27 AM (#4029353)
and this applies to tourist how? you expect a typical midwest family to even own a 'stupid' phone for whatever reason just to navigate their one trip every three years to new york? Most real people don't bother with technological crap that really doesn't work as advertised(for the record, unfortunately my current job is to be an android specialist) expecting people to require a 'stupid' phone is just insane for a trip to the hof.

If you don't live in one of the top 20 cities in the U.S. you are seriously wasting money on a smart phone.


That's silly. I definitely take advantage of smartphone features to navigate in the city (like I would instead of buying a GPS for the car), but that represents less than 5% of what I do with the extra stuff the phone gives me. My smartphone is a like a swiss army knife: I can read a book, use a digital coupon without having to print it out, check my email, play any music or videos that live on my home computer (or eventually, the cloud), look up something on the web, buy tickets with my credit card for a movie, order dinner to be delivered when I leave work so that it arrives when I get home, take reasonably high-quality pictures, price check items in a store, deposit a check, maintain my schedule, and activate a bright, focused flashlight. I'm sure there are a hundred things I could do that I'm not doing yet; I find new, interesting apps all the time. Not to mention that it does all the other phone stuff all in one device that fits in my pocket.

Very few of those things are only useful to someone living in a big city. Like most utility technology, the smartphone was something I thought was a giant waste until I got one. It saves me at least a few minutes nearly every day that I can use for something else.

According to this recent Consumer Reports article, more than a third of Americans own smartphones, and that's more smartphones than passports. You certainly don't need a smartphone, but every day someone is coming up with a new way to take advantage of this technology.
   114. Walt Davis Posted: January 05, 2012 at 05:12 AM (#4029356)
deposit a check

What are you, a caveman?
   115. sunnyday2 Posted: January 05, 2012 at 05:21 AM (#4029357)
People have a right to regard place of birth as an important criteria when voting for POTUS. And those who do have a right to decide for themselves whether a candidate was indeed born in the U.S. or some other place like, say, Kenya or whatever. It is also true, however, that those who are incapable of evaluating facts but prefer to cast their vote based on prejudice do not bring credlt to their kind.

Ditto those who vote for the HoF based on rumor-mongering.
   116. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 06:51 AM (#4029365)
What are you, a caveman?

I use direct deposit and make online payments for practically everything, but I have living grandparents, so I do occasionally encounter a check.
   117. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4029392)
My smartphone is a like a swiss army knife

Yet they're far, far worse than my freaking StarTac from 15 years ago at actually making a damn phone call.
   118. AROM Posted: January 05, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4029407)
If you don't live in one of the top 20 cities in the U.S. you are seriously wasting money on a smart phone.


I don't get that at all. My phone came in handy quite a bit when I was on vacation last summer. Just getting email and keeping up with BTF news while in the middle of nowhere. Sure the connection speed is slower but you can get your news. And when I get to my hotel room with wireless internet, I can watch any game I want.
   119. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4029409)
and this applies to tourist how? you expect a typical midwest family to even own a 'stupid' phone for whatever reason just to navigate their one trip every three years to new york? Most real people don't bother with technological crap that really doesn't work as advertised(for the record, unfortunately my current job is to be an android specialist) expecting people to require a 'stupid' phone is just insane for a trip to the hof.

If you don't live in one of the top 20 cities in the U.S. you are seriously wasting money on a smart phone.


This is one bizarre stance. I think it kind of takes away your cred on this subject. It ain't Grapes of Wrath out there.


you do realize the cost difference between those two cities that 400k in attendence would arguably barely cover the difference in rent if at all. (actually the more I think about it, the more I think it would require closer to a 1.5mil attendence boost to make it a break even proposition)


Donation. What's the Steinbrenners doing with all that land that is supposed to get turned into parks and such?

Do people not realize it's one of the most densely populated cities in the world, especially when you add in the millions of tourists per year? It's also one of the most expensive to visit, and heck it's very possible to have a three hour cab ride going across town. And unlike a visit to cooperstown, where the three hours is wide open road, you are stuck in a tension high stress trip.


Just because you hate going to a city doesn't mean the vast majority of people out there do as well. Again, NYC is one of the most visited destinations in the world. The vast majority of people do not share your feelings on NYC. And hell, if you love Cooperstown so much you can fly into NYC, visit the Hall, and then take the bus out to Cooperstown and stay the week out there.

   120. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4029418)
Just because you hate going to a city doesn't mean the vast majority of people out there do as well. Again, NYC is one of the most visited destinations in the world. The vast majority of people do not share your feelings on NYC. And hell, if you love Cooperstown so much you can fly into NYC, visit the Hall, and then take the bus out to Cooperstown and stay the week out there.

I honestly don't think being in NYC would make the HoF more visitable for the average American.

If a family of four wants to spend two days at the HoF, in NYC those two nights in hotels (two rooms) is going to cost you $1000. If you're flying in, it's cheaper to rent a car in NY and drive to Cooperstown than to stay in NYC, when you consider the difference in hotel/food costs. If you're driving in, Cooperstown is even cheaper.

Now a NYC HoF might pick up a bunch of extra walk-ins, spending 1-2 hours in between the Statue of Liberty and Central Park, but that assume a prime Manhattan location which is going to cost beaucoup bucks.
   121. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4029424)
It would be a huge boost to tourism if Wrigley Field and Carlsbad Caverns switched places for one year. And the Baseball Hall of Fame should be moved to the DMV, because we all have to go there from time to time, and you're stuck for a few hours anyway. Lastly, if good-looking celebrities would have sex at my house, I wouldn't have to pick up the Star to read about it.
   122. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4029426)
My family (six people) went to Cooperstown a few years ago. Only two of us are baseball fans, but we all seemed to have a good day out. The Hall of Fame took around 3 hours for the fans, about half that for the non-fans, who then poked their heads in a few shops and went for a short walk. Then we caught what I assume was a high-school game at the ballpark just outside, before heading for home. That seems like the best way to finish up a HoF trip, to be honest.

Consensus was that it was a pleasant day for all involved, especially knowing that we were going to be in NYC for five days soon afterwards, so it was a more relaxing way to enjoy a museum trip than if we were battling crowds (which we soon would be). We only had to come in from Pittsfield, MA, however, so it wasn't a soul-crushing drive.
   123. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4029431)
I honestly don't think being in NYC would make the HoF more visitable for the average American.

A quarter of a million people visited the Hall last year. The average American is never ever going to visit the HoF in Cooperstown.

Perhaps Bruce can correct me but the Hall gets about 5 to 10% of its visitors on Induction week. 30 to 40% because of the various tournaments and probably another 30-40% are people within a 80 mile radius or so. I'm guessing that maybe a little over half the people that visit the Hall are from further out than 80 miles away.

Do I think more people would plan a trip in which the Hall was the main or exclusive destination of the trip if it were in NYC? NO I don't. Do I think more locals and travelers would visit the Hall if it were in NYC? Yes I do.
   124. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4029441)
Do I think more people would plan a trip in which the Hall was the main or exclusive destination of the trip if it were in NYC? NO I don't. Do I think more locals and travelers would visit the Hall if it were in NYC? Yes I do.


I think this is true. Whether it would be enough to cover the increased costs is open to debate.

I'm a pretty big hockey fan but more in the "here and now" than anything else. I would never have planned a trip to the Hockey Hall but when SABR was in Toronto I took time out one afternoon to check it out.

Personally I like Cooperstown over NYC but that's more a function of the fact that I loathe NYC. I think what would happen if you put the Hall in NYC (or some place similar) is you would gain attendance but with two possible negatives;

1. The increased cost would outweigh the increased revenue. I have no earthly idea if that would or would not happen.

2. I think "destination" attendees would drop considerably. I think the cost would have a real negative effect on people who wanted to travel to see their hero (e.g Bagwell supporters from Houston) inducted. I don't know if that's a feature or a bug though.
   125. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4029454)
Do I think more locals and travelers would visit the Hall if it were in NYC? Yes I do.

But that's no the be all and end all. As has been mentioned, moving to MYC would radically increase the Hall's costs.

Perhaps the better answer would be a HoF satellite location in NY that would feature a rotating part of the collection.

Sort of a teaser to get people interested in making the full visit.
   126. Andy H. Posted: January 05, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4029455)
If you're going to move the HOF from Cooperstown, why should NYC be the only other option? What about St. Louis, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland? All of those have a long history of baseball.
   127. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4029459)
My smartphone is a like a swiss army knife

Yet they're far, far worse than my freaking StarTac from 15 years ago at actually making a damn phone call.

Why on Earth would this be so? My smartphone makes phone calls just fine.

I also agree that the idea that you have to live in a big city to really make use of a smartphone is just nuts.
   128. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4029460)
But that's no the be all and end all. As has been mentioned, moving to MYC would radically increase the Hall's costs.

No, it has been suggested that it might increase their costs. We do not know it would and I for one would bet money on corporate sponsors and benefactors covering the costs.

Perhaps the better answer would be a HoF satellite location in NY that would feature a rotating part of the collection.


Which would be fine but a satellite location in NYC is going to be just as big as the musuem in Cooperstown. It isn't like the Hall is as big as the Fields Musuem or something.


If you're going to move the HOF from Cooperstown, why should NYC be the only other option? What about St. Louis, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland? All of those have a long history of baseball.

Because you can't move it out of state. There is no way NYS would allow it.
   129. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 05, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4029475)
McCoy, I don't dispute for a second that a Hall of Fame located in Times Square could attract more casual fans and serendipitous tourists than the one in Cooperstown. You could say the same thing about any one of a thousand non-topographical tourist attractions that are spread out throughout the country in similar out of the way locations. Move the Rock and Roll museum from Cleveland to midtown Manhattan and you'd set new attendance records there, too.

But since you're looking at this from a strictly business POV, you've got to look at the other side of the equation.

---The current HoF owns its buildings. A move to a good tourist location in Manhattan would mean rents that would likely run from $600 to over $1000 a foot. I'll let you do the math to see how much that would come to for all the square footage in the HoF's buildings in Cooperstown.

---The current HoF is the most important attraction in Cooperstown, presumably one of the key focuses of attention of the local business community. In New York, it'd barely be a blip on the radar.

---The current HoF attracts fans who are hardcore enough to make what amounts to a minor pilgrimage to a town that's hours off the beaten track. That means that nobody who made the trip is going to balk at the admission fees that range from $7.00 (children) to $19.50 (adults under 65). That admission price alone is likely to deter many of the sort of "casual fans" who would presumably be among a Manhattan HoF's projected customer base, and in fact that admission price would almost certainly have to be raised to meet the added expenses.

---The current HoF has tradition up the wazoo, even if it's based on an 1839 "invention" that's about as real as the Virgin Birth. Even the buildings' appearances are in harmony with a more old time look. OTOH in New York, instead of walking through the pleasant streets of a small town to get from one part of the Hall to the other, you'd be taking an elevator in some skyscraper.

---How much would salaries have to rise in order to transport the current employees from a rural area where housing values range from $140,000 (2 bedrooms) to $695,000 for an 8 BR 7 BA 5,000 sq. ft. mansion, to a city where a 2 bedroom apartment in a half-good neighborhood seldom runs under $2,000 a month and is almost always much higher? Of course they could always fire their current employees and start from scratch with local unemployed Yankees and Mets fans.

---You've cited the drop in attendance figures as a cautionary note about the HoF's future, but there's no indication that its existence is being seriously threatened. But what might a similar drop in attendance in New York City mean, when the expenses of running the museum would be almost incalculably higher? A HoF that owns its property in Cooperstown can ride out a few bad years, an probably more than a few. How many bad years do you think it'd take to sink a Hall of Fame in Manhattan? You might ask the owners of the ESPN Zone, or the Sports Museum of America, which lasted all of 9 1/2 months.

Bottom line: There's more than one side of a ledger sheet.

   130. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4029480)
---The current HoF owns its buildings. A move to a good tourist location in Manhattan would mean rents that would likely run from $600 to over $1000 a foot. I'll let you do the math to see how much that would come to for all the square footage in the HoF's buildings in Cooperstown.

And yet somehow businesses and non-profit orgs exist in NYC.

---The current HoF is the most important attraction in Cooperstown, presumably one of the key focuses of attention of the local business community. In New York, it'd barely be a blip on the radar.


So?

   131. booond Posted: January 05, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4029488)
Let's take the French Laundry and put an arch over it.
   132. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4029491)
For trademark reasons it would probably have to be an arc.
   133. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4029493)
---The current HoF owns its buildings. A move to a good tourist location in Manhattan would mean rents that would likely run from $600 to over $1000 a foot. I'll let you do the math to see how much that would come to for all the square footage in the HoF's buildings in Cooperstown.

And yet somehow businesses and non-profit orgs exist in NYC.


As one of them has been doing quite nicely for 72 years in Cooperstown, without the need for deep pockets corporate subsidies, as one of the relatively few sanctuaries for the hardcore baseball fan, as well as being a brief respite from crowded cities and cookiecutter suburbs.

Look, we get that you don't like schlepping to some b*ttf*k town in order to visit a place you'd probably boycott anyway if Barry Bonds gets blackballed. But I'm not sure that the HoF necessarily has customers like you in mind when they're deciding to move forward, thank God.
   134. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4029497)
As one of them has been doing quite nicely for 72 years in Cooperstown, without the need for deep pockets corporate subsidies, as one of the relatively few sanctuaries for the hardcore baseball fan, as well as being a brief respite from crowded cities and cookiecutter suburbs.

The Hall was founded and funded by a deep pocket benefactor and continues to receive large amounts of money from corporate sponsors.



Look, we get that you don't like schlepping to some b*ttf*k town in order to visit a place you'd probably boycott anyway if Barry Bonds gets blackballed. But I'm not sure that the HoF necessarily has customers like you in mind when they're deciding to move forward, thank God.


If attendance is evidence of the kind of customers they want then apparently they want a bunch of local farmers and 10 guys from Des Moines to visit them. So be it.
   135. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4029501)
---The current HoF attracts fans who are hardcore enough to make what amounts to a minor pilgrimage to a town that's hours off the beaten track. That means that nobody who made the trip is going to balk at the admission fees that range from $7.00 (children) to $19.50 (adults under 65). That admission price alone is likely to deter many of the sort of "casual fans" who would presumably be among a Manhattan HoF's projected customer base, and in fact that admission price would almost certainly have to be raised to meet the added expenses.

In any case, if the HoF has revenue issues the answer is not to try to get an extra 250,000 people to drop $10 each. They should focus on the affluent, hard-core baseball fans that would drop a couple of grand for a cool weekend.

If I ran the Hall, I'd focus on building 20-30 theme weekends each year that seek to attract ~100 attendees each for an exclusive value proposition.

Some could be fantasy camp type deals with former MLB players and real coaches. Some could be history based with lectures and tours, with noted historians, broadcasters and HoFers. You have golf outings where each foursome has a retired MLB player in it. You do joint deals with the Otesaga Hotel, so the wives can be pampered while the husbands are running around doing baseball stuff.

You don't spend money you don't have to move to NYC.
   136. Johnny Slick Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4029503)
I was just out in NYC on vacation last May and although I seriously considered it, being a pretty big baseball fan and all, it was just too damn far away for me to waste 2 days of sightseeing time on. This is beating a dead horse but besides the baseball link to Cooperstown is tenuous at best. New York City is where the HOf should be not because it's bigger and better but because that's where the game originated. I mean, jeez. The pro football HOF may be in Canton but at least there is the Canton Bulldogs connection.
   137. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4029505)
As has been mentioned before it is also possible to simply move the Hall closer to NYC or to a place that is easier to get to. NYS has lots of places that are just as beautiful as the Cooperstown area but not as out of the way. Just throw a dart at a map of the Hudson Valley and you'll probably hit a wonderful location.
   138. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4029506)
The Museum of Modern Art has a $25 admission fee. It's free on Friday evenings, thanks to a corporate sponsorship. You don't need a smart phone to find it, because two-thirds of Manhattan streets are laid out in a rectangular, numbered pattern.

Also, if Taillevent would move from Paris to the lobby of my building, I would definitely eat there more often.
   139. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4029508)
If I ran the Hall, I'd focus on building 20-30 theme weekends each year that seek to attract ~100 attendees each for an exclusive value proposition.

But just like moving to NYC those are high-cost moves. Finding 100 people each weekend to drop 1,000 or more dollars and to keep finding them for 20-30 weeks costs a lot of money and is extremely risky.
   140. Johnny Slick Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4029515)
Also, with a move to NYC, how awesome would it be to sponsor a yearky game of "original rules" ball in Madison Square Park?
   141. Swedish Chef Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4029528)
Got a smartphone? You can use hopstop or google maps from anywhere above ground.

Sure, my company would be unhappy about the $15,000 in data roaming charges, though.
   142. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4029531)
I think this argument has kind of run its course.

I doubt anyone would dispute that having the hall in (or near) a large metro area would make it more convenient to visit for more people. And I doubt anyone would dispute that attendance would go up in such a case.

Whether that would be a better thing overall...who knows. We don't know what the cost differences would be (though we could probably guess), we don't know what additional sponsorships might or might not materialize, and so on. And whether this would make a visit to the hall a better experience or a worse one...that's a matter of opinion that shan't be decided here.
   143. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4029535)
Data roaming still exists? Or is the Swedish Chef actually residing in Sweden?
   144. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4029538)
Got a smartphone? You can use hopstop or google maps from anywhere above ground.

Sure, my company would be unhappy about the $15,000 in data roaming charges, though.

In NYC? What provider do you have, Joe's Awesome Cellular Network Inc.?

I'm on one of the smallest national carriers in the US. I've gone to Missoula, MT. I've gone to a town in Indiana that I promise you haven't heard of. And lots of other places. My data roaming charges so far: $0.00.
   145. SoSH U at work Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4029539)
I've gone to a town in Indiana that I promise you haven't heard of.


A challenge. Let me hear it.



   146. Swedish Chef Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4029545)
Data roaming still exists? Or is the Swedish Chef actually residing in Sweden?

Yep, that I do.
   147. Swedish Chef Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4029546)
Data roaming still exists? Or is the Swedish Chef actually residing in Sweden?

Yep, that I do.
   148. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4029543)
Data roaming still exists? Or is the Swedish Chef actually residing in Sweden?

Yeah I didn't think about him not being a US resident. Some cell providers in other countries have wacky charges. Of course, US providers aren't exactly generous when roaming outside the country, either.

To be honest, if you really are visiting from another country for more than, say, a week, you'd probably save a lot of money by picking up a cheap no-contract phone. I haven't looked at them extensively, but a quick search on bestbuy.com shows a few Android phones priced from $50-$100. Of course you then have to pay for service, but you only pay for what you need. Looks like you can get unlimited talk/data for around $40-$50 depending on the carrier.
   149. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4029548)
As one of them has been doing quite nicely for 72 years in Cooperstown, without the need for deep pockets corporate subsidies, as one of the relatively few sanctuaries for the hardcore baseball fan, as well as being a brief respite from crowded cities and cookiecutter suburbs.

The Hall was founded and funded by a deep pocket benefactor and continues to receive large amounts of money from corporate sponsors.


Who are these corporate sponsors? (Names, please.) How much each year do they spend on these subsidies? And how much more would they have to contribute in order to underwrite a move to New York City?

Look, we get that you don't like schlepping to some b*ttf*k town in order to visit a place you'd probably boycott anyway if Barry Bonds gets blackballed. But I'm not sure that the HoF necessarily has customers like you in mind when they're deciding to move forward, thank God.

If attendance is evidence of the kind of customers they want then apparently they want a bunch of local farmers and 10 guys from Des Moines to visit them. So be it.


You'd better be nice to those farmers and Iowans if you want to see your Great Satan sent packing come November.

------------------------------------------

I was just out in NYC on vacation last May and although I seriously considered it, being a pretty big baseball fan and all, it was just too damn far away for me to waste 2 days of sightseeing time on. This is beating a dead horse but besides the baseball link to Cooperstown is tenuous at best. New York City is where the HOf should be not because it's bigger and better but because that's where the game originated. I mean, jeez. The pro football HOF may be in Canton but at least there is the Canton Bulldogs connection.

Well, maybe you can drum up a few surplus corporate sponsors and build a Hall of Merit museum in Hoboken. And since all the Juice Boys will be enshrined there, it might even entice McCoy to hop on the ferry. We can give him the cigarette concession.

------------------------------------------

Also, if Taillevent would move from Paris to the lobby of my building, I would definitely eat there more often.

And I'd go to lots of Yankee games if they'd only get rid of that shopping mall up the road in Wheaton in order to make room for Yankee Stadium. I think I'm getting into the spirit.
   150. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4029549)
A challenge. Let me hear it.

Bringhurst. And no fair using Google.
   151. SoSH U at work Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4029552)
Bringhurst. And no fair using Google.


You got me.

Looking it up, I probably knew it at one time. I didn't live that far from there 20 years ago.
   152. Don Malcolm Posted: January 05, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4029553)
A NYC portal of the HoF that celebrated the specific history of NYC baseball would be a good idea. It could cover a lot more ground than a national museum or any of the team-specific exhibits currently extant.

MLB ought to be investing in this and using some of their resources to bring these more region-specific exhibits to various big-city locations. They should use the resources available at the Hall of Fame and other research organizations to fund, create and curate these satellite museums. These would have to be planned properly, and situated in relatively close proximity to existing ballparks.

If nothing else, a test case in NYC would determine if such a project was actually feasible. Rather than engage/enable McCoy, perhaps it would be better to immerse oneself in the larger issue of how the museum concept itself is faring in a rapidly shifting cultural landscape. Start with books by Stephen Weil and Robert Janes, and continue (if so inclined) with Selma Holo's Beyond The Turnstile. (I personally wish these books had been around a few years earlier, it would have saved me time, trouble, and $$, but that's another story.)
   153. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4029555)
Verizon loans phones to customers to travel overseas for $5. If you don't need data the calling plan is really inexpensive.

I had to get an international capable phone because travel picked up. But still, I thought that was a pretty good deal.

Very unlike Verizon frankly.
   154. DL from MN Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4029558)
Is there a happy medium here? I don't think they necessarily have to move the museum to NYC but I know I have decided not to visit the museum for many years despite loving museums and baseball. You have to make a "pilgrimage" to get there. I would bet that I would spend several days at the museum once I got there just to justify the trip. I'm not going to NY state to go fishing and I don't have any interest in opera. It would help tremendously if you could watch a professional baseball game and visit the museum in the same day.

I planned out a road trip that included Niagara Falls, a AAA game in Buffalo or Syracuse and a trip to the museum but it's such a long haul that it's probably going to remain on the waiting list. Instead I went to Kansas City, saw the Negro Leagues museum, attended 2 Twins-Royals games, ate BBQ, went to the fantastic Liberty Memorial WWI museum and caught a minor league game in Iowa on the way home. I'll probably go back and do that again because there are 3-4 other attractions I haven't seen yet in Kansas City and I can always find a weekend where the Twins are playing.
   155. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4029559)
The HOF did have a travelling exhibition a few years back. It was pretty ok.

   156. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4029560)
You got me.

Looking it up, I probably knew it at one time. I didn't live that far from there 20 years ago.

Yeah my oldest lives there now. Middle of nowhere, but he's got a huge, gorgeous house on a bunch of land, and he works in Kokomo.
MLB ought to be investing in this and using some of their resources to bring these more region-specific exhibits to various big-city locations. They should use the resources available at the Hall of Fame and other research organizations to fund, create and curate these satellite museums. These would have to be planned properly, and situated in relatively close proximity to existing ballparks.

This is a fabulous idea. Imagine a museum in Chicago focused on the history of Chicago baseball! That sort of thing. In NYC you could, as someone else mentioned, do a whole bit on the development of baseball in the NYC area and do that "original rules" game. And so on.
   157. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4029562)
I believe the satellite approach has been broached but I don't know if there are rules/restrictions associated with the state or institutional fussbudgetry that keeps it from being tried
   158. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4029565)
Verizon loans phones to customers to travel overseas for $5. If you don't need data the calling plan is really inexpensive.

I had to get an international capable phone because travel picked up. But still, I thought that was a pretty good deal.

Very unlike Verizon frankly.

You have to be careful, though, because the amount you'll pay for the calling can vary widely depending on the actual country visited. Many countries have a state-owned wireless monopoly and charge high access fees for roaming.

In some countries it makes more sense to buy a local phone and just pick up SIM cards as you travel around. (India is like this, for example; my mom spent a few months there and even though she's on Verizon and could've done the $5 phone deal, but it was a lot cheaper to just pick up SIM cards in different regions.)

Also, it may seem unlike Verizon, but they do it because their chief competitor uses GSM, which roams (more or less) pretty much anywhere, as most of the world uses it. Verizon uses CDMA, which is more or less US-specific.
   159. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4029569)
Who are these corporate sponsors? (Names, please.) How much each year do they spend on these subsidies? And how much more would they have to contribute in order to underwrite a move to New York City?

Google is not new.

PSA
EMC
Bank of America
Ford Motor Company
New York Yankees
Arizona Diamondbacks
Ernst & Young
Bud Selig
Jerry Reinsdorf
Yawkey
O'Malley


It is behind a paywall but over at the Sports Business Journal they had this headline this week: "Attendance slides again but donations increase at Baseball Hall of Fame "
   160. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4029570)
The HOF did have a travelling exhibition a few years back. It was pretty ok.


Financially I don't know how it did but from what I remember attendance was very good.
   161. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4029572)
chris

I understand the nuance. Just didn't want to write any more than my surprise that Verizon provided anything that could be construed as reasonable (assuming one understands the limitations)
   162. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4029576)
A NYC portal of the HoF that celebrated the specific history of NYC baseball would be a good idea. It could cover a lot more ground than a national museum or any of the team-specific exhibits currently extant.

MLB ought to be investing in this and using some of their resources to bring these more region-specific exhibits to various big-city locations. They should use the resources available at the Hall of Fame and other research organizations to fund, create and curate these satellite museums. These would have to be planned properly, and situated in relatively close proximity to existing ballparks.


That's an idea that actually makes sense, as opposed to the idea of relocating the existing HoF from Cooperstown to New York City, which is the New Coke idea to end all New Coke ideas.

------------------------------------

Who are these corporate sponsors? (Names, please.) How much each year do they spend on these subsidies? And how much more would they have to contribute in order to underwrite a move to New York City?

Google is not new.

PSA
EMC
Bank of America
Ford Motor Company
New York Yankees
Arizona Diamondbacks
Ernst & Young
Bud Selig
Jerry Reinsdorf
Yawkey
O'Malley


I wouldn't have thought that most of those names were exactly "corporations" in the usual sense of the word, and you didn't answer the somewhat more important second and third parts of the question.

OTOH if you'd relocate the Hall from Cooperstown to Macombs Dam Park, perhaps you could get the Yankees to underwrite the whole thing, in return for eliminating their luxury taxes and a few other minor concessions.
   163. Howie Menckel Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4029579)

"New York City is where the HOf should be not because it's bigger and better but because that's where the game originated."

Hoboken is in New Jersey, which is home of the New York Giants, New York Jets and New Red Bulls.

   164. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4029580)
While they're at it, can they move Wrigley Field to NYC, too?
   165. Johnny Slick Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4029582)
This whole "go fishing! See the opera!" thing stinks of "we are a small town, we have a nationally recognized museum, and we have no idea how to bring people here other than that museum". How about... baseball related things, instead of just a farmer's museum (I am a huge museum-phile but even for me that sounds a lot boring)? A separate history of 19th century baseball, perhaps. I'm having problems coming up with a lot of ideas myself - it's like trying to convince people journeying to Seattle to take a side trip to Yakima or people going to Las Vegas to travel out to Elko - but I'm pretty sure the answer isn't "a small town opera" unless there are a lot of baseball related operas out there that I am not aware of.

Actually, making the local theatre put on baseball-related plays and productions isn't the worst idea of the world either. For a real baseball grognard, this could be the ONLY TIME you see the stage revival of Eight Men Out! Or the new play which is a biopic on the life of Rogers Hornsby! It still doesn't seem like enough to make a lot of people want to go out there, but again... neither is fishing.
   166. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4029584)
Because I am supposed to know the answer to the second and third question offhand?
   167. DL from MN Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4029587)
The HOF did have a traveling exhibition a few years back


I spent 5 hours in that exhibition. I still remember Edd Roush's hat that had built-in flip up sunglasses.
   168. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4029591)
As a complete side track ...
People go to Induction weekend because of a personal attachment to the player(s) being inducted. It's akin to seeing a child graduate or a spouse receive a professional award.

And the greater the distance from the players career ending to the induction that fan connection wanes.


I agree with this. It also means that those that want the HOF to delay Bonds, Clemens, and so on are encouraging something that hurts (marginally) the HOF. Of course the HOF should not be about the $ and I doubt it is a make or break either way.

Also ... the HOF is NOT moving to NYC. It might be a fun thought exercise, but it is not happening. I would be more likely to go there if it were closer to an airport of other destinations I am willing to travel for (It is nive to package together a bunch of stuff into a long vacation - the San Francisco Bay Area rules for this BTW).

Of course I have never been to NYC or the HOF so what do I know.

BTW - McCoy have you ever visited the HOF? I apologize, but I don't remember.
   169. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4029594)
unless there are a lot of baseball related operas out there that I am not aware of.

You never heard of "The Marriage of Ed Figueroa"? "Tristan und ISO"? Or the Ringzzz Cycle?
   170. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4029608)
Any baseball opera must include Bugs Bunny as the lead.

This is not open to debate
   171. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4029609)
You never heard of "The Marriage of Ed Figueroa"? "Tristan und ISO"? Or the Ringzzz Cycle?

Nicely done. Was the Ringzzz Cycle composed by Billy Wagner?
   172. Bruce Markusen Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4029622)
"Go fishing, see the opera?" I provided a whole list of things to do in the Cooperstown area, and you picked out two that you don't like in an effort to disparage us as a "small town" that has no idea how to bring people here. Well, I'm not a fisherman or an opera buff either, but there are many other things here that do interest me, from the Fenimore Art Museum to the Farmers' Museum, to enjoying the Otesaga, to taking a boat tour, to visiting Hyde Hall.

And there are baseball-related things to do in Cooperstown. Doubleday Field, which is about two and a half blocks from the HOF, has games practically every day of the summer. If you want to see youth baseball, there is Dreams Park, which has countless games each day. There is a semi-pro team in the area, too, the Oneonta Outlaws. And outside of Doubleday Field, there is a batting range.

For baseball card collectors, there are about 20 different baseball shops in and around Main Street. Cooperstown does not lack for a baseball theme.
   173. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4029625)
For baseball card collectors, there are about 20 different baseball shops in and around Main Street. Cooperstown does not lack for a baseball theme.

There's also a very good used book shop in Cooperstown---Willis Monie, at 139 Main Street, just a block from Doubleday Field and two blocks from the HoF---which has always had a fine selection of baseball books and history books at very reasonable prices. When I had my own book shop I used to always find lots of stuff there that I could buy for resale.
   174. booond Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4029628)
Been there three times. It's an area which fills a long weekend. If you like to fish and would utilize the lake it could be a nice week spent in the summer for a family with children who may be bored with opera or folk art.
   175. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4029630)
If you like to fish and would utilize the lake it could be a nice week spent in the summer for a family with children who may be bored with opera or folk art.


OK, but I live in MN. I am not going to try to sell my family on the lakes and fishing in NY, I would be laughed out of the room.
   176. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4029658)
Yet they're far, far worse than my freaking StarTac from 15 years ago at actually making a damn phone call.

The StarTac is the Babe Ruth of cell phones. I've never seen a phone as perfect for its purpose: incredible battery life, great reception without raising the antenna and even better reception with the antenna, excellent volume, light, and durable. To be fair, when I had my StarTac, there were a lot fewer people on the network, so coverage might be an apples to oranges comparison.

If my Droid X is a swiss army knife, the StarTac was a Wusthof. The main benefit of the smartphone is the reduced Batman factor. When I was working in tech, I had a phone, PDA, and pager attached to my belt.
   177. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4029663)
The main benefit of the smartphone is the reduced Batman factor. When I was working in tech, I had a phone, PDA, and pager attached to my belt.

Of course now I have to carry my phone, and my work BlackBerry.
   178. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4029665)
The StarTac is the Babe Ruth of cell phones. I've never seen a phone as perfect for its purpose: incredible battery life, great reception without raising the antenna and even better reception with the antenna, excellent volume, light, and durable.

This is why I think Google is going to bury Apple and own the cellphone market in the next 10 years. Motorola had/has phenomenal engineers, but nobody who could market or run a business. Under the Google umbrella, they're going to kick ass.
   179. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4029669)
Perhaps the better answer would be a HoF satellite location in NY that would feature a rotating part of the collection.

A bunch of years ago, the Museum of Natural History had a HOF exhibit, and I did see that. That's probably the best all-purpose solution: lend out portions of the collection to big-city museums during slow periods and work out some sort of admission-splitting. I don't have much interest in seeing the plaque room (especially since I've heard that it's boring), but some of the physical artifacts of the game's past are fascinating.

The HOF could also probably make some money by providing electronic access to the stuff in the library (either for a small fee or with some sort of advertisement).
   180. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4029671)
BTW - McCoy have you ever visited the HOF? I apologize, but I don't remember.

Yes, twice.

Once as a trip from Wisconsin and the other a day drive from downstate NY.
   181. Johnny Slick Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4029672)
I would carry my Xoom on my belt but that would just be dumb. Also, I used to carry an onion on my belt...
   182. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:08 PM (#4029674)
I think it's mistaken to think in terms of phones as we currently know them or imagine them or that the players as currently placed will be the same ones even five years hence.
   183. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4029678)
I think it's mistaken to think in terms of phones as we currently know them or imagine them or that the players as currently placed will be the same ones even five years hence.

What are you thinking of Harveys?

I assume the key functionalities of phone calls, emails/texting, and web browsing are going to remain the same.

I don't see the IPad type device superceding the phone; they're too big.

And any phone that's small enough to be easily carried is going to suck for video.
   184. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4029681)
This is why I think Google is going to bury Apple and own the cellphone market in the next 10 years. Motorola had/has phenomenal engineers, but nobody who could market or run a business. Under the Google umbrella, they're going to kick ass.

I'm a pretty loyal Motorola guy. The RAZR was my least favorite phone they made, but it had incredible potential. The tech just wasn't ready to cram that much into such a small package when it came out, so it ran very hot, was a bit fragile, and had crappy battery life (especially over time). Even so, I loved the feel and look of that phone. The RAZR had also serious software issues, but I heard that was less Motorola's fault and more the fault of the stuff the carriers added.

I think we're going to have an XBOX/Playstation/Nintendo situation sometime over the next decade with phones: Microsoft/Google/Apple. Apple will be the most popular mainstream product because it is simple and driven by the simplest hands-off interface, Microsoft will be very popular because they will take advantage of having phones that are familiar and share design philosophy with PCs, and Google will have a very successful high-end product that technophiles like best.
   185. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4029685)
I got the Droid RAZR last month and so far I like it a lot. It is a little big but that is the tradeoff for the larger screen. Feels solidly built, using it is a breeze, and there are tons of apps. Then again my only other experience with a smartphone was 2 years with a Palm Pre Plus so what the hell do I know.

I do think E-book readers are going to vanish within the next 5 years. There is simply no point to them. My dad got the new Nook and he jailbreaked it to turn it into a Android tablet. So I guess there will be that niche as long as the ebook reader is cheaper than a tablet.
   186. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4029691)
and there are tons of apps

What apps do people actually use?

I haven't heard of one yet that I'd care enough to bother to learn how to download one.
   187. Richard Gadsden Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4029695)
I really don't have a dog in this fight - NYC is 3,300 miles from where I live, and I'm not likely to travel to the USA any time soon.

But it does strike me that being three hours' drive from the nearest airport and essentially impossible to reach by public transport is not particularly clever, especially at a time of high fuel prices.

Of course, having checked, it's only 73 miles by road from Albany airport, and Google's estimate is 90 mins. If they don't run a shuttle service in comfortable long-distance buses from the airport - at least around the time of the induction - then they're insane.

My real surprise, having visited the website, is that they don't sell full visit packages outside of the time of the induction.

They really should offer a package where you fly in on Saturday morning, get a bus to Cooperstown, visit the hall and museum, stay in a hotel and get taken back to the airport Sunday evening to fly home.
   188. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4029698)
snapper

Just seen too many technological innovations not just in my lifetime but in the last 10 years. And the pace seems to be quickening.

As for apps, the Bloomberg app is great. The TripIt app is very handy. The MLB app is outstanding. (For being so backwards personnally Bud has certainly pushed MLB to the forefront relative to other entertainment options). Mint's app is great. LeaseNeg is a handy app. The WSJ app is great. Translator is surprisingly proficient. Expensify is handy.

I am beginning to think you live in a cave.

(That's a joke son)
   189. CrosbyBird Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4029705)
And any phone that's small enough to be easily carried is going to suck for video.

There are two possible solutions for this, and both exist today even if they aren't completely cooked for cheap, mainstream delivery.

Flexible Displays: I don't think we're very far from a tablet-sized screen that can be collapsed into something smaller than my wallet.

Projection: There's already stuff that projects a keyboard onto any flat surface that you can type on. The technology already exists to make any reasonably flat surface an interactive touch screen. There are some demos online of systems where a guy projects a keypad onto his forearm, then opens a document on a nearby wall.
   190. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4029706)
This constant bleating about high fuel prices is pretty curious given that gas was $3.70 in July. $3.95 in May.

Sure it's higher than 2009 and 2010 but it was over $4 in May of 2008. Commerce is happening again.

I know there are some who want to insist that business is still shut down but for those of us who follow such things transportation is a leading indicator of commercial activity
   191. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4029707)
What apps do people actually use?

HeyTell
Games
Pandora/Various other radios
Weatherbug
Facebook
MLB.com
ESPN Scorecenter
Google Maps
E-Book reader
   192. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4029708)
Yes, I have the Kindle app. That is just ok.
   193. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4029716)
By the way, I am not interested in a pointless discussion about the state of the economy.

I know what I see, I know what I follow, and I know how I will be investing. If some here want to rant that everything remains in shambles and the world s*cks please note that I will not be debating with you because I disagree and am not devoting energy to convincing anyone otherwise
   194. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4029719)
Then again my only other experience with a smartphone was 2 years with a Palm Pre Plus so what the hell do I know.


I have a Pre Plus. Sigh. Potential, but really a dissapointment. Palm. HP. Pleh. My contract is up this month and I am waiting for post CES to decide what to get. Leaning towards Android. The research is half the fun in my opinon.

And even on the Pre there are tons of apps I like. Not mentioned so far a feedreader (so there is always something to read during downtime), Music app, password vault (keeps all my passwords encrypted, so I can - for example - log into BBTF whereever I am without using the same password everywhere), news G app (pulls from Google News), Dictionary, various theater/film apps for movie times, reviews, and locations (great for traveling), and so on.
   195. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4029726)
What apps do people actually use?

I haven't heard of one yet that I'd care enough to bother to learn how to download one.

Apps I use regularly: Pandora, Shazam, Inkpad, Facebook, Google Maps, Handcent (for SMS), Netflix, Seesmic (for Twitter), Weather Channel, U-Verse Mobile. Plus a smattering of games, and of course web browsing, email, etc.
   196. McCoy Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4029731)
I thought the Palm apps were few and far between and generally sucked. Their browswer sucked and the phone was extremely flimsy and fragile. It was nice and compact though.
   197. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4029734)
I am beginning to think you live in a cave.

I try to.

I don't own an IPod, or IPad, or Kindle/Nook, or digital camera. Only 2 or our 4 TVs are flat screen. It would be zero if you could still buy a decent tube television. I've never been on Facebook or Twitter or MySpace.

I have a smart phone, but only ever use it for phone, email (reading only normally) and web surfing.

I just don't see any value in any of the new "consumer electronics".

Quite frankly, I could live without pretty much every new invention in my lifetime (born in 1971), except EZ Pass.
   198. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 05, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4029738)
I thought the Palm apps were few and far between and generally sucked. Their browswer sucked and the phone was extremely flimsy and fragile. It was nice and compact though.


Palm/HP apps: Few, yes. They are OK. Not cutting edge and not near the assortment for IOS or Android. But still plenty that are worth it (especially all the free ones.

Browser: Basically sucks. Does the job when needed, but that is the best that can be said.

Phone: Mine and the ex-spouses have held up very well actually. Screen too darn small. Also the physical keyboard is small and basically terrible (I like physical keyboards which is why I am leaning Android and not ios). The really annoying part are the frequent crashes that take FOREVER to reboot from. Seriously it is ten minutes (ok maybe only 6 or 7) before the phone is up again. My crappy work computer boots up and I can get onto the netwrok before it is done.

Size: Yeah it is a nifty size, but as I said the screen is too small, especially as my eyes get worse. Stupid aging.
   199. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4029740)
HeyTell
Games
Pandora/Various other radios
Weatherbug
Facebook
MLB.com
ESPN Scorecenter
Google Maps
E-Book reader


Pandora, Shazam, Inkpad, Facebook, Google Maps, Handcent (for SMS), Netflix, Seesmic (for Twitter), Weather Channel, U-Verse Mobile.

Not to insult you guys, but I pretty sure I still don't need to bother learning about apps.

The things I care about either are there automatically (weather) or I can access through the web (MLB, Google).

The rest of the stuff I either don't know what it is, or don't honestly care (Facebook, Twitter).
   200. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 05, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4029745)
I don't own an IPod, or IPad, or Kindle/Nook, or digital camera.

How do you take pictures? I'm being serious, here; film is getting harder to get (and that will only continue). Places that develop film are disappearing too -- and I say this as a guy with a dark room in his basement.
Only 2 or our 4 TVs are flat screen. It would be zero if you could still buy a decent tube television.

Why? Flat screen TVs are inexpensive now, and they draw less power, are lighter, and (very generally speaking) offer a superior picture. I can understand not being in any sort of rush to replace existing TVs, but actually preferring an old, curved, heavy tube TV?
I just don't see any value in any of the new "consumer electronics".

Fair enough (though I am not sure what the scare quotes are for). If you don't like new technology, I doubt anyone here will change your mind. Do you own a DVD player?
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