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Thursday, April 15, 2010

OT: NHL Playoff Thread

I estimate that only 10-12 Primates care about the NHL Playoffs, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: the NBA playoffs and Pavement’s discography.

Cabbage Posted: April 15, 2010 at 03:44 PM | 1758 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1301. steagles Posted: December 04, 2011 at 07:43 PM (#4006617)
the last two nights have been a hell of a ride--winning in OT against anaheim after coming back from being down 3-0, and then jumping out to a 4-0 first period lead against phoenix. 4 points playing on back to back nights 3000 miles from philly.
   1302. zack Posted: December 06, 2011 at 05:57 PM (#4008140)
Give me an R, give me an E give me an ALIGNMENT.

So I guess this is happening for reals now. Four divisions, no conferences. (Or I guess they are calling it 4 conferences, no divisions).

Names I made up, and the lists within the division have no meaning, just my interpretation of how they got there.

-Snowbird Conference (7 teams)
Boston, Buffalo
Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
Tampa, Florida

NYC-Based-Rivalry-Maintenance Conference (7 teams)
NY Islanders, NY Rangers, NJ Devils
Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington
Carolina

Norris Conference (8 teams)
Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Minnesota, Winnipeg
Dallas, Nashville, Columbus

Latenight Conference (8 teams)
San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Phoenix
Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton
Colorado

It's probably better than any other preposed realignment we've seen, but I think I'd prefer a less drastic change. Division playoffs will be hate generators, which is cool, but I'm going to be sick of playing the Red Wings in the first or second round every year for the next decade (...hopefully). The uneven division sizes are obviously a big downside as well, especially if they keep an east/west stanley cup format. And I liked having the conference-wide playoff races rather than the divisional format used in every other sport I follow. Oh well.
   1303. steagles Posted: December 06, 2011 at 06:20 PM (#4008165)
it sucks that detroit didn't get shifted to the to, montreal, boston "conference". there could have been some really good rivalries built there.


also, i would have at least thought of splitting the rangers and the islanders, so that you'd actually have some variety in nyc w/r/t opponents.
   1304. Justin T is going to crush some tacos Thursday Posted: December 06, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#4008345)
I am so on board with this realignment. The only downside I care even a little bit about is that there are now 22 or 23 other teams that you only play twice. Ok, so you see everybody home and home, but you see almost everybody only that much.

Oh well.
   1305. zack Posted: December 06, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#4008350)
But this way you don't have to edit the NHL rivalries wikipedia page. This set-up maintains all the rivalries listed on that page other than Blackhawks-Canucks, which was cross-division anyway. Saves so much effort.
   1306. DA Baracus Posted: December 06, 2011 at 08:03 PM (#4008355)
also, i would have at least thought of splitting the rangers and the islanders, so that you'd actually have some variety in nyc w/r/t opponents.


That makes absolutely no sense in a geographical re-alignment.
   1307. steagles Posted: December 06, 2011 at 08:41 PM (#4008408)
That makes absolutely no sense in a geographical re-alignment.
that's a fairly strong reaction to have about a relatively minor quibble.


put the islanders in the north, along with detroit, then shift the florida teams to the atlantic.


-Snowbird Conference (7 teams)
NY Islanders, Boston, Buffalo
Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
Detroit

NYC-Based-Rivalry-Maintenance Conference (8 teams)
NY Rangers, NJ Devils
Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington
Carolina, Tampa, Florida

Norris Conference (7 teams)
Chicago, St. Louis, Minnesota, Winnipeg
Dallas, Nashville, Columbus

Latenight Conference (8 teams)
San Jose, Anaheim, Los Angeles, Phoenix
Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton
Colorado


the "norris" "conference" would be a bit weak, but hopefully that would be more of a cyclical thing than a year-in/year-out thing.

i think this actually makes more sense since you're not pairing the florida teams with the canadia teams, and you're restoring some of the original 6 rivalries by putting toronto, montreal, boston and detroit in the same "conference"
   1308. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: December 06, 2011 at 08:55 PM (#4008427)
Theres no reason to split up detroit and chicago too old of a rivalry and too good of one at that.
   1309. Shredder Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:01 PM (#4008433)
I probably shouldn't complain, seeing as how the Angels play in a four team division, but I knew from the moment I heard of this 8-8-7-7 setup that the Kings would be in an 8 team division/conference. I suppose it was to be expected that eastern teams would have easier roads to the playoffs. Hopefully they ditch Phoenix in the off-season.
   1310. Flynn Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:02 PM (#4008435)
Boogaard had CTE when he died.

The hockey establishment and media is determined to sweep this under the rug. I suspect what will do them in is an ex-enforcer launching a class action lawsuit and winning an ungodly sum of money.
   1311. Flynn Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:04 PM (#4008437)
Splitting up Islanders-Rangers is stupid.

Phoenix is going to Quebec in the next year or two, which will make that conference eight.

Then it's all set for expansion. Yes, I know, but owners love that free money. Seattle and Kansas City here we come!
   1312. Moses Taylor, Moses Taylor Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:05 PM (#4008440)
i think this actually makes more sense since you're not pairing the florida teams with the canadia teams, and you're restoring some of the original 6 rivalries by putting toronto, montreal, boston and detroit in the same "conference"

Restoring Wings rivalries out east by ending the Wings/Hawks rivalry is, well, stupid. It's probably not ideal to have one conference/division over-original-sixed, or more-so I should say.

BTW, how about Jonathan Toews? It's not a hard argument to make that he's the best/most valuable/whatever player in hockey.
   1313. puck Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:24 PM (#4008452)
Boogaard had CTE when he died.


NYTimes had a pretty lengthy article about Boogaard and the diagnosis.
   1314. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:26 PM (#4008453)
I like the idea of going back to a "four teams from each division" make the playoffs structure. There was something "right" about that in my mind (probably the fact that I grew up with it). It seemed logical though.

My one disappointment is that given the importance of in-conference games I wish there were more of them. The two "east" conferences will both play more games out of conference than in conference which I think is wrong.
   1315. steagles Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#4008466)
The hockey establishment and media is determined to sweep this under the rug. I suspect what will do them in is an ex-enforcer launching a class action lawsuit and winning an ungodly sum of money.


i think that'll be a harder case to win than you might expect. the damage to boogaard's brain started in the CHL, which isn't really under the NHL's umbrella. it could be argued that even if he had retired instead of making his NHL debut, the CTE would still be an issue due to the blows he'd taken in juniors.

Restoring Wings rivalries out east by ending the Wings/Hawks rivalry is, well, stupid. It's probably not ideal to have one conference/division over-original-sixed, or more-so I should say.


i think it'd be pretty cool to rekindle the rivalries between detroit and the other sixers, but i could see how someone might not.
But this way you don't have to edit the NHL rivalries wikipedia page. This set-up maintains all the rivalries listed on that page other than Blackhawks-Canucks, which was cross-division anyway. Saves so much effort.

this could just be me, but with the unbalanced schedule, i find some of these decades-old rivalries to be kind of stale. playing the rangers and the penguins and the devils 6 times a year just isn't very exciting going into the 8th year that we've been doing it.

i'd like to see chicago. i'd like to see vancouver, and the kings, and the blues, and the sharks.

this realignment doubles down on the idea that familiarity breeds contempt, but i'd like to see some new rivalries form instead of just feeding these old ones into the grinder.
My one disappointment is that given the importance of in-conference games I wish there were more of them. The two "east" conferences will both play more games out of conference than in conference which I think is wrong.
and that is just exactly the opposite of the way i'm feeling about this.
   1316. DA Baracus Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#4008467)
I probably shouldn't complain, seeing as how the Angels play in a four team division, but I knew from the moment I heard of this 8-8-7-7 setup that the Kings would be in an 8 team division/conference. I suppose it was to be expected that eastern teams would have easier roads to the playoffs. Hopefully they ditch Phoenix in the off-season.


Basically Phoenix is just sitting there for now, ready to move to one of the 7 team divisions once it is finally sold and moved. With the 4 divisions this was the only way.

Expansion is the last thing the NHL needs. Instead it needs to contract Phoenix and Florida.
   1317. puck Posted: December 06, 2011 at 09:45 PM (#4008486)
i think that'll be a harder case to win than you might expect.


agree in respect to the CTE...I mean, they don't know all that much about how it progresses.

However, if you read the Times article, there's plenty of room for a lawsuit regarding painkiller prescriptions. Supposedly:

In one three-month stretch of the 2008-9 season with the Wild, Boogaard received at least 11 prescriptions for painkillers from eight doctors...
   1318. zack Posted: December 06, 2011 at 11:04 PM (#4008568)
Expansion is the last thing the NHL needs. Instead it needs to contract Phoenix and Florida.


The Panthers aren't going anywhere because they make bank running the arena. Besides, they average 15k like clockwork. Not great, but if you were going to contract a team on merit it would be the Islanders (along with the Coyotes).

I've been trying to put together some high level stats since we're nearly a third of the way through the season, but I'm having trouble summarizing them.

Looks like the Rangers, Maple Leafs and Wild are mostly smoke and mirrors. At 5v5, the Rangers have a team shooting percentage 2.4 SD over the mean!, and a save percentage 1.2SD up, while being a bottom-5 possession team. Minnesota is pretty clearly relying on unsustainable goaltending, 1.6 SD+, bottom 3 possession. Maple Leafs likewise have unsustainably high shooting numbers, especially on the power play.

Boston looks like a very good team, but not the unbeatable juggernaut that they appear to be right now. They're the only team with off-the-charts shooting and save numbers at 5v5, off the chart shooting numbers on the powerplay, and off the chart save numbers on the kill. Then again, Tim Thomas is really ####### good, so they might be less lucky than your average team with those numbers.

St. Louis and Florida look like the improvement is real.
   1319. zack Posted: December 06, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#4008612)
Since I bothered to type it out for another forum, here's the Blackhawks component numbers so far (all numbers are rank in the NHL):

Fenwick Ratios    
    
While Score Tied2nd!
    While 
Score Close4th
    
Even Strength    
    Shots 
For: 6th
    Shots Against
4th!
    
    
Shooting Percentage12th
    Save Percentage
26th
    
Penalty Kill    
    Opportunities Given
9th
    Shots Against
27th ()
    
Save Percentage27th ()
    
    
Power Play    
    Opportunities Drawn
13th
    Shots 
For: 4th
    Shooting Percentage
19th
    
Misc    
    Hits
24th
    Blocked Shots
9th?!
    
Faceoff Percentage5th
    Takeaways
2nd 
   1320. zack Posted: December 07, 2011 at 04:57 PM (#4009156)
You're a 21 year-old rookie goaltender, sitting on the bench for the first time ever because one of your team's goalies is injured. You watch as your team gives up eight shots (and one goal) in the first 71 seconds (a 405 shots per game pace), and then the starting goaltender is elbowed in the face by his own defencemen and knocked out of the game. At least you just warmed up?

If you're Matt Hackett you come in to face 6 more shots in the next 3 minutes, then hold on to stop 28 more over the rest of the game while your team scores 2 to come back and win. Sheesh.
   1321. DA Baracus Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:06 PM (#4009166)
The Panthers aren't going anywhere because they make bank running the arena. Besides, they average 15k like clockwork. Not great, but if you were going to contract a team on merit it would be the Islanders (along with the Coyotes).


Then get rid of the Blue Jackets. Nobody cares about these franchises.

You're a 21 year-old rookie goaltender, sitting on the bench for the first time ever because one of your team's goalies is injured. You watch as your team gives up eight shots (and one goal) in the first 71 seconds (a 405 shots per game pace), and then the starting goaltender is elbowed in the face by his own defencemen and knocked out of the game. At least you just warmed up?

If you're Matt Hackett you come in to face 6 more shots in the next 3 minutes, then hold on to stop 28 more over the rest of the game while your team scores 2 to come back and win. Sheesh.


That's not even the best rookie goalie story of the day. That would be Mike Murphy, who came in, didn't give up a goal and got the loss.
   1322. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: December 07, 2011 at 05:22 PM (#4009184)
Boston looks like a very good team, but not the unbeatable juggernaut that they appear to be right now. They're the only team with off-the-charts shooting and save numbers at 5v5, off the chart shooting numbers on the powerplay, and off the chart save numbers on the kill. Then again, Tim Thomas is really ####### good, so they might be less lucky than your average team with those numbers.


One of the things that the Bruins have going for them is health. They have basically rolled out the same 20 every night (at least the ones who
remember to set their alarm clock) which is a big help. Like your point about Thomas there is a "luck is the residue of design" aspect to that as they roll four lines and six defensemen regularly so they avoid a bit of wear and tear.

My one fear is that as the season goes on they will wear down. They had the deep run in the playoffs last year of course and they are a physical team to begin with who now are playign with a target on their backs.

Semi-related, the atmosphere in Winnipeg last night was sensational. I don't know if the Stanley Cup champs is what generated that or that is how the fans have been typically but it was a loud and enthusiastic building. A lot of fun to watch.
   1323. steagles Posted: December 08, 2011 at 04:26 AM (#4009849)
4 point night for giroux including the game-winning goal in OT. he's now the NHL's scoring leader.


he's still really ####### good.
   1324. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:50 AM (#4011169)
1/3 of the way through the season now.

the flyers have 37 points, and are alone at the top of the eastern conference.
claude giroux is on pace for 48 goals and 111 points.
scott hartnell on pace for 39 goals.
the team as a whole has 7 players on pace to put up 50 points (giroux, hartnell, jagr, briere, voracek, timonen, read), and 12 on pace for 30 (van riemsdyk, talbot, pronger, carle, simmonds).


just in the last 4 games, they've come back from (2) 3-0 deficits, and won, and they've jumped to (2) 3-0 leads, and won. 4 games, 8 points, no pronger.
   1325. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:05 AM (#4011178)
scott hartnell on pace for 39 goals.
and just to explain why this is notable, hartnell was a candidate to be optioned to the AHL coming out of training camp. he was out of shape and played like #### in the preseason*, and there's been a love/hate relationship between him and the organization the last few years, due to inconsistent production and ill-timed penalties.


*he actually was pretty awful to start the season, too. 2 points (both assists) the first 7 games of the season, and then, for some reason, he forrest gump'd his way onto the wing of jagr and giroux, and he exploded for 22 points in his next 20 games.


i mean, you'd expect someone who plays on a line with jagr and giroux to produce, but there's a difference between expecting it and getting it, and you gotta give hartnell at least some credit for actually putting the puck in the back of the net.
   1326. zack Posted: December 09, 2011 at 07:55 PM (#4011652)
claude giroux is on pace for 48 goals and 111 points.
scott hartnell on pace for 39 goals.


Both are also shooting at a 20% clip, compared to Giroux's 13% and Hartnell's 12% over the last 3 years. I don't doubt that Giroux has elevated his game, but the safe bet would be the way under on either maintaining that scoring rate for the season.
   1327. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:23 PM (#4011689)
Both are also shooting at a 20% clip, compared to Giroux's 13% and Hartnell's 12% over the last 3 years. I don't doubt that Giroux has elevated his game, but the safe bet would be the way under on either maintaining that scoring rate for the season.
i wouldn't disagree with that. giroux had a great start to last year, too, but he did slow down towards the end of the year (now that could have been because he wore down, but it could also have been that he became the guy that opposing teams gameplanned against (as opposed to carter, richards, or briere. if the latter was the cause, as opposed to either the former or a combination of the two, then he could very well be in line for a 111 point season, since there's no doubt that he's facing the opposition's best defenders night in, night out).

as for hartnell, as i said, he's been inconsistent. him slowing down would be the expectation, but he is capable of scoring in bunches, so i wouldn't put 40 goals out of his reach, and especially not if he stays on the line he's on.
   1328. zack Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:09 PM (#4011821)
My point was just that shooting percentage is like BABIP. If you see a pitcher with really good results and a low BABIP, you'd expect (knowing nothing else) that his results will be less good for the rest of the year. Of course, over a single season you'll always get some guys who can keep it up.
   1329. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#4011847)
so i wouldn't put 40 goals out of his reach, and especially not if he stays on the line he's on.


Not going to happen. And I'm a Hartnell fan.
   1330. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:44 PM (#4011860)
Not going to happen. And I'm a Hartnell fan.
i'm just wondering, do you actually enjoy sports, or is it just an excuse for you to drink alcohol? every time we talk, you seem to take an aggressively pessimistic stance, and it just seems like you have absolutely no joy in your life, whatsoever.
   1331. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:47 PM (#4011864)
i'm just wondering, do you actually enjoy sports, or is it just an excuse for you to drink alcohol? every time we talk, you seem to take an aggressively pessimistic stance, and it just seems like you have absolutely no joy in your life, whatsoever.


And every time I see you post, it's fanboyism.

And just so you know, I enjoyed them beating the ####### Sabres and then the ####### Penguins on back to back nights. That was pretty sweet.
   1332. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:03 PM (#4011883)
And every time I see you post, it's fanboyism.
scott hartnell will make you forget about every power hitter that ever lived.
   1333. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:08 PM (#4011889)
scott hartnell will make you forget about every power hitter that ever lived.


You've lost me. Not sure what this has to do with anything we are talking about.
   1334. steagles Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:26 PM (#4011911)
You've lost me. Not sure what this has to do with anything we are talking about.
it's a take-off of a sparky anderson quote about mike laga.


my "fanboyism" has actually come up several times in several places before. part of it is that i enjoy watching the teams i root for. part of it is that i focus more on individual player development than i do on the final score of individual games. a large part of it is probably linked to the fact that i'm a huge wrestling fan, and i kind of enjoy riling people up with my aggressive "fanboyism"**.



**seriously. with the phillies run last year, i got so deep under people's skin that there were other team's fans with no connection whatsoever to the phillies that had their years made simply because the phillies got knocked out in the first round.
   1335. Chris Fluit Posted: December 10, 2011 at 08:40 PM (#4012620)
This is as good a place to post this as any:

The NHL should reclaim the tradition of naming divisions and conferences after past greats.

The Orr, Lemieux, Howe and Gretzky Conferences sound good to me.

Plus, with all of the changes, I'd love to see the semi-finals re-seeded based on best record. That sets up the possibility of the two best teams meeting in the finals (or, conversely, two upsets and neither of the best teams- but those are the chances you take).
   1336. steagles Posted: December 11, 2011 at 03:56 AM (#4013004)
giroux was kneed in the head towards the end of the 2nd period of tonights game. no word on the severity, but he was definitely wobbly going off the ice, and there really is no such thing as a mild concussion, so that's probably not good.
   1337. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: December 11, 2011 at 04:25 AM (#4013035)
In other injury news Zdeno Chara left the bruin game early with an injury. It does not sound too serious fortunately.
   1338. zack Posted: December 13, 2011 at 06:10 PM (#4015179)
In other injury news Zdeno Chara left the bruin game early with an injury. It does not sound too serious fortunately.


I kind of would like him to miss more time, just to see if it has a noticeable impact on the Bruins' goal-prevention. Unfortunately tonight's game is against the Kings, who make every defense look like an unstoppable juggernaut.
   1339. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: December 13, 2011 at 06:44 PM (#4015264)
I kind of would like him to miss more time, just to see if it has a noticeable impact on the Bruins' goal-prevention.


I think it would have to have some impact. If it didn't then I think the importance of a defensman's defense is vastly overrated since he is as good as it gets.
   1340. steagles Posted: December 13, 2011 at 09:35 PM (#4015517)
so long as we're doing some kind of massive realignment in the NHL, why isn't anyone talking about the need to go to a 3 point system, so that OT wins and losses are heavily discounted against regulation victories? there's just too many games that go to overtime, and there's just very little opportunity for teams to actually separate themselves in the standings when there are so many games that award 3 points instead of 2.


i mean, i'm not a huge hockey fan, so it may be that what i'm advocating here is the equivalent to a non-baseball fan saying there are too many games for the season to matter, but it annoys me to see the standings so tightly packed when the difference in the quality of the teams is actually much greater.
   1341. steagles Posted: December 14, 2011 at 02:38 AM (#4015863)
flyers are now up 4-0 on washington going into the 3rd period, despite playing without both claude giroux and chris pronger.


i'll take it.
   1342. steagles Posted: December 15, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#4017252)
so, HBO's 24/7 thing premiered last night.



it could just be me, but i think the breakout star was unquestionably ilya bryzgalov.
   1343. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: December 15, 2011 at 11:15 PM (#4017394)
The Orr, Lemieux, Howe and Gretzky Conferences sound good to me.

Sub in "Clark" for one of those ham and eggers and I'm on board.
   1344. Greg K Posted: December 16, 2011 at 01:06 PM (#4017605)
I was always confused as to why ties were so horrible that they needed to be removed from the game.

OT certainly is more open than it used to be, but I don't recall it being a problem for me.

I will say I think my ideal would be 3 points for a win, 1 for a tie. 5 or 10 minute 4 on 4 OT.

EDIT: Re: Pessimism and Optimism as a fan. I lean towards pessimism, because I'm a generally pessimistic guy, plus it's always fun to be pleasantly surprised. Actually I'd say "cautious optimism" is a better descrption. Fans who are always certain that their team is the best drive me nuts, but so do fans who get on people for having hope. My default setting (which is ideally suited to the current incarnation of the Leafs) is that my team probably isn't good enough to make the playoffs, but if enough things go right (like a flukey hot start) they've got a chance.
   1345. Greg K Posted: December 16, 2011 at 01:58 PM (#4017623)
This also seems like a good place to present my top 50 "teams" of the 1993-2004 era. (Not that there's ever really a good place to engage in such self-indulgent nonsense, but I spent a few hours compiling them so I've got to put them somewhere).

Some selections picked at random. I did wingers and centres separately. Obviously if it's just forwards as a group Lemieux is on the first line. I think I might actually take the forward group on team 9 over the 7s.

Team 50
Cristobel Huet
Jaroslav Modry
Joe Reekie
Shayne Corson
Jason Allison
Murray Craven

Team 40
Byron Dafoe
Craig Ludwig
Bill Houler
Shawn McEachren
Olli Jokinen
Adam Graves

Team 30
Jocelyn Thibault
Adam Foote
Ulf Samuelsson
Tomas Sandstrom
Henrik Sedin
Geoff Sanderson

Team 9
Sean Burke
Eric Desjardins
Kevin Hatcher
Pavel Bure
Sergei Fedorov
Petr Bondra

Team 7
Tomas Vokoun
Sergei Gonchar
Rob Blake
Paul Kariya
Mats Sundin
Theo Fleury

Team 2
Patrick Roy
Paul Coffey
Al MacInnis
Brett Hull
Mario Lemieux
Mark Messier

Team 1
Martin Brodeur
Ray Bourque
Nik Lidstrom
Jaromir Jagr
Wayne Gretzky
Teemu Selanne
   1346. steagles Posted: December 17, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#4018507)
i really hate the instigator rule. even when it gets the flyers a desperately needed PP, it's just an awful call.


and now couturier just got hit in the side of the head by a slapshot.


yeah, this game is not going very well.
   1347. steagles Posted: January 21, 2012 at 07:44 PM (#4042035)
since we have the bookmarks back, i figure this is as good a time as any to post this.


flyers players diagnosed with a concussion so far this season:
pronger
giroux
schenn
read
van riemsdyk

and now, danny briere.


that is...not good.
   1348. steagles Posted: January 22, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4042593)
test
   1349. steagles Posted: February 23, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4067534)
i cannot express how excited i am for jeff carter and mike richards to be reunited again in los angeles. i don't think i've actually sat down and watched a non-flyers NHL game since probably 2006, but i think i'm actually gonna go out of my way to see los angeles now that the bang brothers are back together.


   1350. Shredder Posted: February 23, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4067600)
i cannot express how excited i am for jeff carter and mike richards to be reunited again in los angeles. i don't think i've actually sat down and watched a non-flyers NHL game since probably 2006, but i think i'm actually gonna go out of my way to see los angeles now that the bang brothers are back together.
I wouldn't bother. In 30+ years of fandom, this is easily the most boring Kings team I've ever had the displeasure of watching. At least most years they sucked, they at least scored a goal now and then. I'm gonna miss JJ, and I hope the deal for Carter works out, but this team has some serious systemic issues. And Richards hasn't done a damn thing since he got hurt.
   1351. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: February 24, 2012 at 12:10 AM (#4067632)
The Blue Jackets have to be in the running for the worst pro sports franchise in North America. They're without a doubt the worst team in the NHL this year. Since their first draft in 2000, they've drafted three (Klesla, Nash, Voracek) players of note. Very few of their picks have carved out careers as 3rd/4th liners or 5th/6th d-men. When they try to make a move via trade, it doesn't work out- Antoine Vermette had a very uneventful Blue Jacket career (though they didn't give up much for him), as did Jeff Carter (and they gave up Voracek & a 1st round pick to get him). I love Jack Johnson but he is not a no. 1 d-man, which he'll be expected to be in Columbus. Their free agent signings have been horrid- Wisniewski, Huselius, Commodore; Steve Mason & RJ Umberger are getting paid too much as well.

Not sure why they felt the need to trade Carter. It's like they didn't want to deal Nash but felt they had to do *something* just because.
   1352. steagles Posted: February 24, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4067633)
I wouldn't bother. In 30+ years of fandom, this is easily the most boring Kings team I've ever had the displeasure of watching. At least most years they sucked, they at least scored a goal now and then. I'm gonna miss JJ, and I hope the deal for Carter works out, but this team has some serious systemic issues. And Richards hasn't done a damn thing since he got hurt.
richards is a dog. when he came into the league, he was a hard-nosed 2-way centerman, but his offensive game never really developed, and he's just completely lost his edge over the last few years.


up until he was traded, i was a huge fan of jeff carter. i thought he was really hurt by being compared to the perception of richards, when, (at least) in my opinion, by the end of their run here, he was a much more competent 2 way player than richards was. carter was relied upon to take defensive zone draws to a much greater extent than richards, and he really became a very reliable defensive forward, both in his own zone and in transition.


anyway, that was up until he was traded. the tantrum he threw after being traded to columbus, and him completely laying down once getting there have kinda soured me on him.


but still, i'm interested to see what they can do in LA. they both seemed pretty shaken by getting traded, so hopefully they'll both get a kick now that they're reunited.
   1353. steagles Posted: February 25, 2012 at 08:46 PM (#4068818)
so, there's a program on NHL network called NHL 36. i'd never seen it before, but basically, they just follow around an NHL player for 36 hours.

i'm watching the mike richards one.


i'm really just completely stunned at how laid back he is. i mean, i don't expect an athlete to live and breathe his sport 24/7/365, but it seems like hockey is just completely off his radar when he's not at the rink. there's just no drive in him at this point.


also, i absolutely love how the receptionist at AM570 had absolutely no idea who he was when he went to the studio to be interviewed.
   1354. steagles Posted: February 28, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4070548)
i think i might have to live-blog/tweet/post tonihgt's kings-wild game.
   1355. DA Baracus Posted: February 28, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4070566)
If you're going to keep this a one man thread with a live posting, at least make it entertaining.
   1356. Cabbage Posted: March 06, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4074915)
Team 1
Martin Brodeur



Marty Brodeur is the Jack Morris of goalies. Pedro Hasek is a clear number 1, unless you're going with a career-value/stanley cup combo rating system (and that should give you Roy).
   1357. zack Posted: March 06, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4074956)
This thread works again? It was completely mangled for months for me.
   1358. Copronymus Posted: March 06, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4074974)
Pedro Hasek is a clear number 1, unless you're going with a career-value/stanley cup combo rating system (and that should give you Roy).


I can imagine a system that cared a lot about Cups giving you Sawchuk or Plante instead of Roy, the only problems with that being that giving lots of credit for team playoff success is dumb and also that goalie play has changed a ton since the 50s.
   1359. steagles Posted: March 09, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4077392)
in case anyone hasn't noticed, ilya bryzgalov has 2 shutouts and about a .960 save percentage in the last 5 games. the flyers are only 4-1 over that span (thanks to a 1-0 regulation loss against san jose), but the pre-deadline acquisitions of grossmann and kubina seem to have really shored up the defense in front of the previously atrocious bryzaster.
   1360. zack Posted: March 09, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4077433)
I still can't decide who won the Kings-Blue Jackets trade. Jack Johnson is garbage, so Columbus obviously lost, but I don't know what kind of crack I'd need to be smoking to want Carter for another decade. JJ did have the game winner in the first meeting to try and tip the balance.
   1361. Flynn Posted: March 09, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4077435)
I can imagine a system that cared a lot about Cups giving you Sawchuk or Plante instead of Roy, the only problems with that being that giving lots of credit for team playoff success is dumb and also that goalie play has changed a ton since the 50s.


I don't see why changes in styles of play matters. Technique and tactics in all sports has evolved over the years. It wasn't like either of those two guys were big fat guys who just stood there and deflected pucks wide of the net; Plante in particular invented the type of roving third defenseman goalie that the NHL changed the rules to eliminate while Sawchuk was at times playing like Hasek except without the benefit of a mask.

Giving it to Plante because he was lucky enough to be teammates with (inhales) Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey, Dickie Moore, Bernie Geoffrion, Henri Richard, Tom Johnson, JG Talbot and therefore collect RINGZZZZ is dumb, but he deserves his share of the credit as a truly great goaltender. Same with Sawchuk.
   1362. steagles Posted: March 10, 2012 at 11:10 PM (#4078407)
so...

ilya bryzgalov has shutouts in 3 of the last 4 games, and hasn't allowed a goal in his last 136 minutes. he just beat toronto 1-0 in a shootout, which is remarkable for 2 reasons:

1, the flyers actually won a shootout (honestly, i can really only remember 1 time they've actually come out on top, and it was the 82nd game of the 2009 season where they stoned the rangers in a win-and-in game).
and 2, the flyers only had 3 NHL caliber defensemen in the lineup. pronger was out, timonen was out, meszaros was out, kubina was out. they dressed gustafsson (who's played all of 25 NHL games), lilja (who's really past the point where he's useful) and some 21 year old called manning, who was playing in only his 2nd NHL game.

he was just really, really good.
   1363. cardsfanboy Posted: March 10, 2012 at 11:20 PM (#4078409)
Are the Blues a real team, or is it just smoke and mirrors still? And do they have any chance of going deep in the playoffs?
   1364. DA Baracus Posted: March 10, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4078414)
actually won a shootout (honestly, i can really only remember 1 time they've actually come out on top, and it was the 82nd game of the 2009 season


Oh come on. They won a SO 2 weeks ago.
   1365. zack Posted: March 11, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4078537)
Are the Blues a real team, or is it just smoke and mirrors still? And do they have any chance of going deep in the playoffs?


They are real (unfortunately), and they could go deep.
   1366. steagles Posted: April 01, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4094229)
i am not at all looking forward to these two teams meeting in the first round of the playoffs. it's not even about winning or losing, it's that the penguins are just such a ####### disgraceful team. they whine, they dive, they're dirty as hell, and then you add to that the fact that the flyers are the most penalized team in the NHL, and even before it starts, there's not a doubt in my mind that the series is just going to be completely unwatchable.
   1367. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: April 01, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4094240)
I'm not a fan of either team, but it has to do with both teams' history with the Bruins. Plus, I have nothing against Crosby, but I'm sick of hearing about him every day even when he *isn't* playing.
   1368. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: April 01, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4094265)
Wow, that went well.
   1369. zack Posted: April 02, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4094623)
it's that the penguins are just such a ####### disgraceful team. they whine, they dive, they're dirty as hell, and then you add to that the fact that the flyers are the most penalized team in the NHL, and even before it starts, there's not a doubt in my mind that the series is just going to be completely unwatchable.


Sucks to look in the mirror, huh.

and then you add to that the fact that the flyers are the most penalized team in the NHL


About two weeks ago, I was looking at minor penalties since the lockout, and on a bar chart the Flyers bar is like dropping the Sears Tower in Kansas.
   1370. zack Posted: April 02, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4094630)
Found the chart.

Even the Flyers were penalized less than the least penalized team immediately after the lockout.
   1371. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4094646)
That hit on Briere was about as devastating a hit as you can deliver while being absolutely and perfectly legal.

He didn't charge, he didn't blind side him, he didn't jump, he didn't hit him with an elbow, he didn't target his head, he didn't hit him from behind, he didn't hit him near the boards, he didn't hit him after he passed the puck, he didn't hit him before he got the puck, he didn't hit him after the whistle, he didn't hit him while he was tied up with someone else, he didn't hit him while chasing an icing, he didn't slew-foot him, he didn't use his stick, he didn't cross-check him...

And yet everyone on the Flyers lost their minds when it happened.
   1372. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4094654)
i am not at all looking forward to these two teams meeting in the first round of the playoffs. it's not even about winning or losing, it's that the penguins are just such a ####### disgraceful team. they whine, they dive, they're dirty as hell, and then you add to that the fact that the flyers are the most penalized team in the NHL, and even before it starts, there's not a doubt in my mind that the series is just going to be completely unwatchable.


Replace "Penguins" with "Canadiens" and you get the exact way Bruin fans felt last April heading into the first round series with Montreal. I really thought a series with Montreal would suck the energy out of the Bruins and leave them ripe for the picking in the next round. I was wrong.

As for yesterday I only saw the incident(s) in highlight form but it looked to me like Crosby really initiated things with his little Peter Forsberg memorial cheap shot on one of the Flyers. He didn't pop the guy or anything but if he wants to give those little chippy shots he has to be ready to take a pop in response. I agree with RTG that the hit on Briere was just a good old fashioned clean hit.

I'm excited because the Bruins clinched the division last night. I wouldn't mind seeing Tim Thomas take the next few games off, maybe a couple of periods in the last game, but rest him up.
   1373. DA Baracus Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4094659)
And yet everyone on the Flyers lost their minds when it happened.


It was a legal hit but let's not act like this is an isolated incident. Teams losing their #### over good clean hits happens way too much these days. I'm not opposed to the league handing out some post-game discipline over it.
   1374. zack Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4094667)
It's too bad the NW division sucks so bad, the Pacific doesn't deserve to put 3 teams in the playoffs, and it takes a lot of air out of the musical chairs end of the season. But that's what happens when you put 3 Canadian teams in the same division.

Buffalo really dicked the dog by losing to the damn Maple Leafs. Losing 3 defensemen, including the top 2, in consecutive games probably didn't help.
   1375. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4094670)
As for yesterday I only saw the incident(s) in highlight form but it looked to me like Crosby really initiated things with his little Peter Forsberg memorial cheap shot on one of the Flyers.

I think you've got it backwards. Braden Schenn cross-checked Crosby on the way to the bench, which infuriated the Penguins.

Teams losing their #### over good clean hits happens way too much these days. I'm not opposed to the league handing out some post-game discipline over it.

Agreed. I hate how every team in the league handles a big hit as an act of war.

Usually there is some aspect of the trigger-hits that might possibly be construed as "dirty".
This is the first one in a while that was as perfect as it gets.
   1376. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4094675)
I think you've got it backwards. Braden Schenn cross-checked Crosby on the way to the bench, which infuriated the Penguins.


On the highlights I saw they showed Crosby take his little swipe (which was the weakest hit of the bunch) THEN Schenn hammer Crosby. If that's not the sequence, that's just wrong.
   1377. DA Baracus Posted: April 02, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4094679)
I think you've got it backwards. Braden Schenn cross-checked Crosby on the way to the bench, which infuriated the Penguins.


Which was retaliation for Crosby's slash earlier in the game.

Usually there is some aspect of the trigger-hits that might possibly be construed as "dirty".
This is the first one in a while that was as perfect as it gets.


Vitale had earlier injured Grossman, so part of it was also message sending for the playoffs. That part I don't have a problem with, but I am biased.
   1378. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 02, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4094717)
Which was retaliation for Crosby's slash earlier in the game.

I must have missed that.
   1379. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 02, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4094719)
The best part of the whole brouhaha was that they had to turn off Pierre McGuire's microphone for fear of catching the f-bombs being dropped by the players/coaches in that area.

Anything that shuts him up is fine by me.
   1380. DA Baracus Posted: April 02, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4094724)
I must have missed that.


He slashed Schenn pretty hard, broke his own stick. Even the NBC announcers thought it was a penalty, and of course they're loathe to ever criticize the Golden Boy.
   1381. steagles Posted: April 02, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4094806)
He slashed Schenn pretty hard, broke his own stick. Even the NBC announcers thought it was a penalty, and of course they're loathe to ever criticize the Golden Boy.
he hacked at giroux, too, off of a faceoff in the 2nd period.
On the highlights I saw they showed Crosby take his little swipe (which was the weakest hit of the bunch) THEN Schenn hammer Crosby. If that's not the sequence, that's just wrong.
hammer?
That hit on Briere was about as devastating a hit as you can deliver while being absolutely and perfectly legal.

He didn't charge, he didn't blind side him, he didn't jump, he didn't hit him with an elbow, he didn't target his head, he didn't hit him from behind, he didn't hit him near the boards, he didn't hit him after he passed the puck, he didn't hit him before he got the puck, he didn't hit him after the whistle, he didn't hit him while he was tied up with someone else, he didn't hit him while chasing an icing, he didn't slew-foot him, he didn't use his stick, he didn't cross-check him...

And yet everyone on the Flyers lost their minds when it happened.
it's a sore subject. so far this year, the list of flyers who've missed games due to head injuries includes pronger, van riemsdyk, schenn, briere, giroux, voracek, couturier, and matt read. the team is just on edge about this stuff.


i am kind of conflicted about this kind of thing right now. with all of the stuff that's come out about the consequences that concussions have later in life--in football and wrestling, in addition to hockey--my appetite for these kinds of plays has been greatly diminished. on the one hand, it was a "clean" hit, and i disagree with laviolette saying that the guy shouldn't have been on the ice. the game was decided, and that really is a situation where 4th liners should see the ice.

but the game was decided, and the hit was dangerous and wholly unnecessary. it may have been clean, but if zac rinaldo takes that exact same run at sidney crosby in his first shift this saturday, i don't think there's any doubt he'd be gone for the game, and likely the playoffs as well. this is the kind of thing where you treat others the way you expect to be treated yourself, and if the penguins sing the praises of that kind of hit, well, they probably shouldn't expect crosby to be on the ice for very much longer.
   1382. DA Baracus Posted: April 02, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4094866)
it's a sore subject. so far this year, the list of flyers who've missed games due to head injuries


Briere wasn't hit in the head.
   1383. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 02, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4094886)
but if zac rinaldo takes that exact same run at sidney crosby in his first shift this saturday, i don't think there's any doubt he'd be gone for the game

What? No chance. It was a clean hit, shoulder to chest. Briere's head was never touched.

but the game was decided, and the hit was dangerous and wholly unnecessary.

How was it dangerous?

and if the penguins sing the praises of that kind of hit, well, they probably shouldn't expect crosby to be on the ice for very much longer.

That could be the dumbest thing I've seen you write in this discussion.
So clean checks should be retaliated with deliberate attempts to injure?
   1384. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: April 02, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4094964)
Found the chart.

Even the Flyers were penalized less than the least penalized team immediately after the lockout.


Am I reading that correctly? The Hawks are the least penalized team in the NHL this year? I have to say I find that a bit surprising -- it seems like they take at least one Too Many Men per game (although the chart seems to say bench minors aren't included, so maybe that skews the chart a little).

Also a shame about Steve Montador, ehh? Comes back after missing several games due to a concussion, and first game back takes a head shot.

Regarding the Briere hit, I'll echo 1283 in saying it looked pretty clean -- guy didn't seem to leave his feet, and it looked like he got Briere square in the chest.
   1385. steagles Posted: April 02, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4094986)
Briere wasn't hit in the head.
What? No chance. It was a clean hit, shoulder to chest. Briere's head was never touched.

How was it dangerous?
neither of you have ever heard of whiplash, have you? this is from another sport, but it's a similar play. there was no contact to pietrus's head, but the force created when his body went from moving to not caused a serious concussion. there does not need to be direct contact to the head for there to be serious repercussions.
That could be the dumbest thing I've seen you write in this discussion.
So clean checks should be retaliated with deliberate attempts to injure?

it was an unnecessary hit that gave the penguins no strategic advantage, other than its potential (realized potential, as it turns out) to injure an opposing player. clean hit or not, i don't think it's unreasonable to say that the intent behind this hit was to injure danny briere--to send a message.

i'm not an "eye for an eye" guy...not in sports, anyway. i'm just saying the hit should not have happened. you people are caught up on the mechanics of the hit itself, but that misses the point. the hit did nothing to affect the result of the game, it put a player on the DL (so to speak), it caused multiple players to be ejected and fined (though i don't think there's been a suspension). it did not need to happen.
   1386. Shredder Posted: April 02, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4095001)
there does not need to be direct contact to the head for there to be serious repercussions.
C'mon, half the hits in a hockey (at least) are designed to make a player go from "moving" to "not moving". EVERY hit has the potential to injure a player. The NHL has decided to punish hits directly to the head because there's an increased chance of injury. If the NHL extends that to go from punishing "hits with an increased potential for injury" to "hits with potential for any injury", then you might as well get rid of hitting in the NHL. Let the NHL police hits to the head (along with hits from behind, high sticks, etc.) and let the players police the big, clean hits. I'm sorry, but if the tables had been turned here, I don't think Steagles would be complaining.
   1387. DA Baracus Posted: April 02, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4095004)
neither of you have ever heard of whiplash, have you?


Are we also going to penalize hurt feelings? There was nothing wrong with that hit.

this is from another sport


Where they don't wear helmets. I'm not saying that helmets solve everything, but comparing basketball to hockey in this instance is a huge stretch.
   1388. zack Posted: April 02, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4095015)
Am I reading that correctly? The Hawks are the least penalized team in the NHL this year? I have to say I find that a bit surprising -- it seems like they take at least one Too Many Men per game (although the chart seems to say bench minors aren't included, so maybe that skews the chart a little).


I'm not sure about today, but as of two weeks ago they were the least penalized, by a fair bit. They've been in the bottom-3 of penalties for the last couple of years, too, so not an outlier. It makes sense to me, they engage in relatively little shenanigans (Canucks games excepted). This year they've been even cleaner than usual, because the PK is so terrible they can't afford to take penalties. On the topic, it annoys the #### out of me when people complain about PIM not balancing out for two teams, when it is extremely clear that there is a talent to not taking penalties. They shouldn't balance out.

Unlike the last few years, the Blackhawks actually in the top 10 in fights this year, though. Thanks mostly to Bollig trying to stay in the league.

Edit: looking it up, they still have the fewest minors, two fewer than the Sharks. They have ten bench minors, tied for fourth with five other teams, vs. an average of 7.5. Philly has 30 more minors than the next most penalized team.

   1389. steagles Posted: April 02, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4095030)
Where they don't wear helmets. I'm not saying that helmets solve everything, but comparing basketball to hockey in this instance is a huge stretch.
pietrus's head never hit the floor. a helmet can't protect you when there's no contact.
C'mon, half the hits in a hockey (at least) are designed to make a player go from "moving" to "not moving". EVERY hit has the potential to injure a player. The NHL has decided to punish hits directly to the head because there's an increased chance of injury. If the NHL extends that to go from punishing "hits with an increased potential for injury" to "unnecessary hits with potential for any injury", then you might as well get rid of hitting in the NHL. Let the NHL police hits to the head (along with hits from behind, high sticks, etc.) and let the players police the big, clean hits. I'm sorry, but if the tables had been turned here, I don't think Steagles would be complaining.
i'd add that one word. and i think potential is an important there word, too. i don't agree with the NHL's seemingly result based enforcement system, and i think hits like this, clean or not, whether briere plays the next night or is out for 6 months, need to be taken out of the game.


and yes, i am evolving on this. there was a time when i'd have shrugged my shoulders and said "rub some dirt on it" or "we damn well better get him back the next time", but again, with all of the recent research into the long-term effects of concussions, i just think someone needs to step in when things like this happen, and say "enough". there has to be a mutual respect between players, and part of that is letting up in a situation like this, so that when the roles are reversed, you'll get the same benefit.
   1390. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 02, 2012 at 06:28 PM (#4095041)
I'm with Steagles; NHL hockey was perfectly fine for decades without the kind of reckless and unnecessary open-ice hits we see today. I don't see that they make the sport any better (*), and they threaten to cause the type of long-term brain injury we're seeing in football players.

The hit in yesterday's game wasn't a "check" as that term was used until very recently.

(*) Particularly since the list of stars and near-stars with head injuries is absurdly long.
   1391. zack Posted: April 03, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4095333)
I can see both sides. That hit was entirely clean by NHL policies.

But it is also part of the culture that needs to change. Hitting should be done to create and deny space, not just for the sake of it. That hit wasn't to seperate Briere from the puck in a meaningful way, just to put him down.

I'm sure I'll get #### for this, but I also don't understand why "finishing your check" is still legal. It's blatant interference by the standard, and it usually results in hard contact with the boards. I get that it is required to keep the hitter from being way behind the play after the check is completed...but if a check takes you out of position, why is it a good play?
   1392. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: April 03, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4095441)
I'm sure I'll get #### for this, but I also don't understand why "finishing your check" is still legal. It's blatant interference by the standard, and it usually results in hard contact with the boards. I get that it is required to keep the hitter from being way behind the play after the check is completed...but if a check takes you out of position, why is it a good play?


Because fans like it. Hockey (and football) are in a tough spot right now. Both sports are dealing with twin issues that are in direct opposition to each other;

- fans like a certain amount of violence
- violence is unsafe

I love a good, hard checking hockey game. As a fan I want to see guys "finishing their checks" in part because I enjoy the violence. Additionally, while you are right that it takes the player out of position briefly if it is done correctly the player he hits is out of position longer. The threat of the hit can also force the player to move the puck quicker than he wants to resulting in turnovers.
   1393. steagles Posted: April 03, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4095503)
Because fans like it. Hockey (and football) are in a tough spot right now. Both sports are dealing with twin issues that are in direct opposition to each other;

- fans like a certain amount of violence
- violence is unsafe
i have somewhat of a different opinion on this. being a fan of professional and amateur wrestling, and being fan of MMA and hockey and, to a lesser extent, american football, i think there's kind of a cocktail of issues that result in things like the boogaard, and waters, and andrew "test" martin situations.


to put it as simply as i can, the difference between high level amateur wrestling, and WWE style professional wrestling, is that, when you're competing as an amateur wrestler, your aim is to compete at as high a level as possible, meaning that when you are not healthy (not necessarily due to head trauma, it could just be that you tweaked your knee), you rest, so that the next time you compete, you do so as a healthier athlete.

but with professional wrestling, and with hockey, and with american football, the culture is such that you are expected to play through the pain, and that gets to the cocktail.


when you add physical sports to a culture of playing through the pain, you get substance abuse issues. not always, i know that (and the substances that are abused are not necessarily illegal ones, it could just be alcohol), but when you hear about an athlete committing suicide, or having early-onset dementia, or depression, or...i don't even want to bring up that other one, this is the root cause-

when you add head trauma to physical sports, to a culture of playing through the pain and put substance abuse issues on top of that, you get major psychological disorders.



this is not just a hockey thing. it's showing up in other places (i think there have been somewhere around 50 suicides of professional wrestlers under the age of 50 since the turn of the century), but i think a lot of people are missing the impact that the culture of sports itself has in creating these dangerous psychological issues.
   1394. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: April 03, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4095544)
Agree with STEAGLES, but a lot of people are going to be hard-pressed to give a damn.
   1395. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: April 03, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4095596)
And frankly, this situation is a LOT worse in football, where people get hit in the head on every play.
   1396. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 03, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4095644)
I'm with Steagles; NHL hockey was perfectly fine for decades without the kind of reckless and unnecessary open-ice hits we see today.

Is this some kind of joke?

Open ice hits were just as common in the 1980s/90s as they are now.
I have old NHL-produced "Hockey's Hardest Hitters" videos where guys like Geoff Courtnall and Al Iafrate were getting demolished by open ice hits from Scott Stevens and Kevin Hatcher.

In fact, it was more common to see shoulder/forearm shots to the head as part of the hit than not.
The famous Luke Richardson hit on Tony Granato that knocked him out was when Richardson dropped his shoulder under Granato's chin. It was definitely a targeted hit to the head, but back in the days that was okay because it wasn't an elbow or a stick.

The only reason everyone is making a bigger deal about them now is because the recipients are (rightly) being told that if they have had their "bell rung", they need to take it easy because people have (correctly) identified further issues down the road.

the hit did nothing to affect the result of the game, it put a player on the DL (so to speak), it caused multiple players to be ejected and fined (though i don't think there's been a suspension).

The hit did not cause the suspension/ejections. The retaliation by the Flyers was their act only.
That's like saying the Flyers 6th goal was the cause of the whole issue because it angered the Penguins, which led to the hit.

And when should players not hit other players? Is it part of the same unwritten rule book about running up the score in baseball, or trying hard late in the game in basketball?

If Vitale isn't allowed to hit him there, then Briere has to promise not to continue moving the puck forward towards the Penguins' end of the ice. If Briere had any intention of trying to create a scoring chance, than a simple body check should be allowed to stop him from doing that.

Edit:
I can't view the video, but this one is labeled with the same title as one of my old VCR tapes.
Hockey's Hardest Hitters
   1397. DA Baracus Posted: April 03, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4095647)
pietrus's head never hit the floor.


Fair enough, I stopped watching after the first replay because it isn't analogous to me.

Agree with STEAGLES, but a lot of people are going to be hard-pressed to give a damn.


I agree with post 1393 and 1395.

   1398. zack Posted: April 03, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4095689)
Is this some kind of joke?

Open ice hits were just as common in the 1980s/90s as they are now.


Depending on his age, it's possible he's talking before that. The 90's were definitely full of killing blow hits, the 80's less so. The 70's were an embarassment of violence (to the exclusion of actual game playing), and while far dirtier in general didn't see as much of the head-hunting IMO. Before that, players rarely wore helmets and shoulder pads were barely anything, so there wasn't nearly the same level of violence to hitting. You'd be more likely to #### up your shoulder than anything if you leaped at someone's head.

   1399. steagles Posted: April 03, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4095703)
And when should players not hit other players? Is it part of the same unwritten rule book about running up the score in baseball, or trying hard late in the game in basketball?

If Vitale isn't allowed to hit him there, then Briere has to promise not to continue moving the puck forward towards the Penguins' end of the ice. If Briere had any intention of trying to create a scoring chance, than a simple body check should be allowed to stop him from doing that.
is it legal? is it dangerous? is it necessary?

i think people are too caught up on the first question, and are not nearly as attentive to the 2nd and 3rd ones. the vitale hit was dangerous, and it was unnecessary, and legal or not, it's the kind of thing that hockey would be better without.
   1400. DA Baracus Posted: April 03, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4095709)
is it legal? is it dangerous? is it necessary?

i think people are too caught up on the first question, and are not nearly as attentive to the 2nd and 3rd ones. the vitale hit was dangerous, and it was unnecessary, and legal or not, it's the kind of thing that hockey would be better without.


But would you say the same thing if Rinaldo did it to Malkin?
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