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Yes
Yes
I don't know if "necessary" is the right word. I think "unavoidable" is a better word. Short of a massive change to the way the game is played that would alter the sport in a dramatic way you are going to have collisions. Unfortunately collisions between two big guys skating in opposite directions creates a terribly violent and dangerous collision. Without the ability to stop the puck carrier by crashing into him hockey becomes more similar to basketball than hockey as we know it. The 7-6, 8-7 game becomes the norm rather than the exception and I think the majority of hockey fans would not care for that.
One can argue that while a player should have the ability to physically impede another player without going after him. The problem is that all that happens there is you change the equation. There is still an injury risk but that risk just shifts to being heavily weighted against the defender rather than the current risk which I would argue is about 60-40 against the puck carrier.
It'd be impossible to legislate that hit out of the game without removing hitting altogether, yes. But it certainly was avoidable; all Vitale has to do is not do it.
It'd be a big culture change. I finally realized that the players had absolutely no respect for each other when Eric Staal murdered his own brother.
Was hoping Dallas would luck their way into the third spot, but it's looking like either LA or SJ in the first round. Definitely prefer either of those two to Detroit. Not that I'm all that confident in the Hawks -- probably a coin-flip first-round series (maybe a slight favorite if Toews is playing as normal), and a definite 'dog in any subsequent series.
I'm just glad it's not the Blues or Canucks, I'm not ready for that much grarr yet.
You have Pominville and Myers staring longingly at each other, about to open-mouth kiss. Then about four feet down you have Roy looking like a fat kid in a candy store. Plus the lil' caps fan about to cry in the background.
It's dirty, and I hope Orpik gets a game or two suspension.
Next question.
Also Ryan Clowe poke-checking Jarret Stoll from the bench and getting away with it is much more newsworthy.
I love Atlantic Division (or Patrick Division if you prefer) hockey. How else could I, a Devil fan, agree with Tortorella while still wanting to smack him across the face with a large bass called Hypocrite. Whining about whiners, I love it. I can't wait to see the Pens and Flyers beat the living #### out of one another.
I think if I had to rank the Western Conference playoff teams I'd go:
1. Vancouver
t2. Detroit, Nashville
4. Chicago
5. St. Louis
6. Phoenix
7. LA
8. San Jose
Phoenix is getting hot at the right time and they just handily beat the Blues in St. Louis tonight. I still think the Hawks can beat the Coyotes, but I'm not too excited about a Mike Smith v. Corey Crawford match up.
St. Louis... I just think their complete lack of offense will catch up to them at some point. I can't see them making it to the Western Conference Finals.
#1416: I don't see any way that Vancouver is clearly better than Detroit or St. Louis. If they played anywhere but the NW, they wouldn't be taking home the Presidents.
Detroit/St. Louis/Vancouver
Nashville/Chicago
Phoenix/LA/San Jose
1) Which team's starting goalie had a higher save percentage this season -> That team will win
2) If neither team had a higher save percentage, who had more points -> That team will win
Rangers in 5
Capitals in 7
Devils in 6
Flyers in 7
Canucks in 6
Sharks in 7
BlackHawks in 6
Predators in 7
Bruins over Caps in 5
Devils over Panthers in 6
Penguins over Flyers in 7
Canucks over Kings in 6
Blues over Sharks in 6
Blackhawks over Coyotes in 7
Red Wings over Predators in 7
and if you want to say that the flyers benefited from briere not being called offsides on his first goal, i'll note that the pens third goal was scored after an icing was waved off at the last moment.
anyway, here's peter laviolette after that OT goal was scored. he seems excited.
Of course you do, it benefits the Flyers. Great comeback, which I missed because I had switched over to the other game. Did Jagr look horifically slow when the Flyers were the ones running things, or was he just not up to speed early? He looks incredibly slow in that gif too, heh.
I hate playoff officiating. The Detroit/Nashville game went completely off the rails in the opposite direction, with 14 power plays. Which would be fine as a signal that they were going to call these playoffs tighter than previous years, but oh whoops, they forgot to tell the other officiating teams. And you know that the rest of that series, let alone the rest of the playoffs, will not be called nearly that tight. And why pick literally the two least-penalized teams in the league as a message-sending game?
anyway, this is from the NHL:
And if this is the Mike Richards we get for the playoffs, I like the Kings' chances. He was an absolute beast, and he just obliterated Alex Burrows in the last minute of the game.
Yeah, that's not what I meant. Pittsburgh is (probably) the better even-strength team. What benefits the Flyers is that not calling penalties allows them to slow down the Penguin's speed advantage through dubious means.
i want to see game 2. i think it's winnable, but i just do not have faith that the NHL will allow this series to be decided at even strength.
(*)Seriously, a shooting percentage of under 4% as a Hawk. Isn't league average at least double that? I'd ask "WTF?", but watching him play you can see why it's so low.
that was just one hell of a game. setting aside the whole winning thing, i think my 2 favorite things about this game were kris letang getting called for a dive in the 1st period, and chris kunitz scoring 2 goals but still finishing at a -5.
and just to say this, i don't quite buy that the flyers are a bad matchup for pittsburgh. with the way that pittsburgh is scoring, it's fair to say that there aren't a whole lot of teams that have the offensive firepower to keep up, but i don't think the flyers have an advantage there, so much as they're just on a (mostly) equal playing field. i don't think there's anything specific that the flyers do that gives them an exceptional advantage over pittsburgh, and i don't think this is a matchup thing so much as it's just 2 good teams playing each other in the first round.
i was really pissed about this game for a while, but seeing something like this has calmed me down a little. they're not doing this kind of #### in a bubble anymore. this wasn't one incident, it wasn't one cheap hit. it was dirty play after dirty play, cheapshot after cheapshot, and everything that people have been saying about these penguins was on exhibit. and their fans (a good amount of them, anyway) took notice.
i really hope these last couple of days will prove to be a tipping point. years ago, even before he dressed for his first NHL game as a flyer, steve downie was suspended for 25 games because of a hit he put on dean mcammond in the preseason. at the time, i thought it was a horrendous overreach, and the suspension effectively ended downie's career as a flyer, but seeing the lack of respect that players have for each other these days, i think that's the kind of discipline the NHL needs. they need to stop pussyfooting around with these 1, 2, 3 game suspensions and just bring the hammer down in situations like these. if arron asham is out for the first 20 games next season, i don't think anyone will shed a tear. it's the same thing for boyle and weber and hagelin and carkner. there needs to be a clear message that this kind of #### is intolerable.
three things..
1, i'm gonna point out that after the hit on couturier in the 3rd period, laviolette didn't send out a goon line to exact immediate revenge on neal. he tried to get the game over without incident, and it was only after neal took a second run, this time at claude giroux, that the flyers went over the edge.
2, the penguins were taking runs at 19 and 20 year old rookies. god help the NHL when these kids grow up, because if they are having this kind of impact at that age, the sky is the limit for what they'll be able to do when they're physically mature.
and 3, sidney crosby started a lot of the #### that went down today. he wasn't just in it, he was the main antagonist. as he's lost cool, so has that whole team.
He could have been trying to pull Hartnell's collar/shirt, but with that much hair it was probably unavoidable.
The same thing happened to Troy Polamalu in an NFL game a few years ago.
And that doesn't even explicitly include the absurd, preposterous, and ridiculous 3 game suspension to Carl Hagelin, while guys like Shea Weber get slapped on the wrist for much worse conduct.
After a decent start, Brendan Shanahan has reverted to the NHL's default setting of just making #### up.
With regard to the Asham hit, it didn't look to me like his original intent was to get Schenn in the throat. Looked like he was going high to the chest and his stick rode up. That's a pretty dangerous play to begin with, and he deserves whatever punishment he gets (and the extra punch was inexcusable), but it didn't look to me like his original intent was to injure with the cross-check. Something tells me game four will be fairly anti-climactic.
What's worse for the league are the antics of guys like Ryan Kesler, and it really pains me to say that since he's American. But he's such an obvious diver that it's embarrassing to watch. Speaking of that series, I used to think Jim Hughson and Craig Simpson were pretty decent broadcasters, but they've been pretty bad in this series. They went on for two minutes about what a great "save" Tanev had made on Dustin Brown on a shot that actually went in the net, ignoring the red light, the pointing referee, and the celebrating Kings. Then last night they wouldn't shut up about Brown's "illegal hit to the head" on Henrik Sedin, despite the fact that the hit was completely clean and not to the head. Very much hoping the Kings can close that out on Wednesday. Glad that the rest of the league is finally getting a chance to see Jonathan Quick.
I can't condone what Weber did, but it looks like the Shanahan and the NHL have decided for the playoffs that dirty play + injury = suspension. No injury, no suspension. Not arguing that's right or wrong, and players should still try to avoid borderline hits that could lead to an injured opponent. But I think the injury angle was a much bigger factor in the lack of a suspension for Weber than the superstar angle, which everyone wanted to push.
Kesler's been a huge disappointment this series. I'm a huge fan of his (member of the 2004 gold-medal winning US U-20 team) and I love the way he plays the game. I've seen him dive about 4-5 times in the playoffs; I never thought this was a part of his game.
On the positive side the US desperately needs a legit goalie & top-6 forward for its WHC team, and Kesler & Cory Schneider fit the profile. Hopefully they'll be willing to dress for the US once the Canucks' season ends this Wednesday.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
And that's the same tired reasoning that Colin Campbell used. YEah the media went with the superstar motive, but that's only because they're all angried out about the intent motive. It's just laughable in Colin Campbell and Brendan Shananan's world that if I pointed a gun at them and shot, but missed, I would not have committed a crime.
I have hung out with a Montreal Canadiens player a couple of times (his wife is friends with my wife from some baby gym class). The Canadiens player is the one of the nicest, most laid-back guys ever, but mention Kesler's name and he just goes bananas about how Kesler is such an annoying player. Not just the diving, but the complaining and the constant yapping... I think Kesler's the only guy I've ever heard this particular Habs player talk trash about.
Needless to say, now when I watch Kesler play, all I see are the annoying, piss-ant little #### things he does on the ice and it makes me hate him. Selection bias FTW.
Oh, they'd agree that you'd committed a crime and you'd get a stern lecture on how shooting at people was unacceptable and how they'd take this behavior into account if you ever did it again and then they'd fine you .03% of your yearly income. It's a crime, just not one that they actually care about that much.
Honestly, the worse crime here is that Red Wings fans' usually laughable victim complex now has an actual injustice to gorge itself on.
As a Kings fan, he still pretty terrifying out there when he has the puck. I don't think he's been that bad. And of course all the flopping makes it pretty easy to hate him. Jannik Hansen has been the biggest problem, he's too fast and skilled for everybody we've got.
In ten years of season tickets, last night was really the first time I felt I got a good return on that investment. It felt damn good too.
as i've said, my view of this sport is evolving. since the lockout, what's turned me off as a fan has mostly been the uneven in-game officiating, and the fact that flyers games have been littered with PPs on both sides. the way i look at it, when a game goes back and forth between PP and PK, it's less of a sport, and more of a game, and i just do not respect the game as much as i respect the sport (if you're wondering about the difference, golf is a game, baseball is a sport).
but these headshots are on another level. the asham thing was not sport. the neal thing was not sport. the vitale hit on briere two weeks ago was not sport. these were intentional acts, outside of the flow of the game, that were meant to hurt/injure/intimidate their opponents after the outcome of the game was decided. i don't think these attacks were premeditated, but i do not think that is the standard by which they should be judged. the hits were dangerous, malicious, outside the flow of the game, and to use a word from earlier in this thread, they were avoidable. whether they were premeditated, whether they were textbook legal, is absolutely inconsequential, and i am disgusted that that seems to be the main standard by which hits are evaluated.
I love hockey, but the NHL's desire to satisfy the lowest common denominator of fan by allowing juvenile, dangerous violence outside the flow of play has always been off-putting to me.
As a Flyers fan I'm fully aware of the proud Bully history of the franchise. Lindros was a borderline dirty player in a lot of respects, but "finishing" checks with a hit 2 seconds after the puck's been moved seems a lot less dangerous than the constant headshots to star players. It's not just the Flyers but also guys like Kariya and Crosby himself who have suffered devastating injuries like this, and that can't be good for the sport. The Stevens hit on Lindros in Game 7 in 2000 was the most blatant attempt to injure that I've ever seen in any sport and pretty much turned me off on the NHL for years.
It seems to me that a lot of the old-time hockey guys who were defending fighting in the NHL were right when they said that cutting out the fighting and having everyone wear a visor would lead to more dirty play and stickwork.
Disagree to a point. It enhances the game to me when there is some PP time on each side. The Game 7 last year when the refs just checked out and the whole game was 5-on-5 was stupid to me. Of course there was no scoring if you are going to let the defense do whatever they want. You need penalties called to have the kind of free flowing game that most people enjoy.
I think there's some sort of arcane formula involving reputation/history; perceived intent/premeditation; outcome that is used in determining suspensions.
Outcome is obviously huge in hockey. The severity of every high-sticking penalty is determine by how much blood the guy can offer up. Last night when Kopitar got nailed with a high stick I remember thinking "C'mon Anze, bleed out a little", which is an odd thing to think about your team's best player in a playoff game. It would be fun for baseball to do this. HBP brushes your jersey, you get first. Take one off your orbital socket, third. Think of all the faking Jeter could pull.
Not if you actually penalize people for dirty play and stickwork.
Then suspend people after the fact. Watch the Olympics or the Frozen Four. Why is there no fighting and far fewer cheap shots? Because they're not tolerated there.
Throw out five-plus game suspensions for fighting and headshots and just watch how quickly they decline in number. Hell, if you slap a guy in the helmet in the NFL you'll get ejected from the game.
Players shouldn't "police themselves," that's why you have refs and a league office.
there's also this about yesterday's game:
I really feel that HNIC has declined in quality the past five years or so. I'm not a fan of the Hughson and Simpson tandem, and Flynn is right, they are considered huge Canucks homers. But, the absolute worst that HNIC has to offer has got to be Glenn Healy. What a pompous gasbag.
There were actually quite a few headshots in the frozen four this year. The difference is they were pretty universally and immediately whistled as 5+10 penalties.
I think golf is actually a contest and a sport. Hockey is a sport and a game. Neither the PGA nor the NHL are games, they're both sport and work. Definitions! I, for example, an ass.
If it's any other teams playing, he's excellent.
He's like a polar opposite of Joe Buck doing baseball; he loves the sport he's broadcasting, his voice provides a good indicator of the excitement of the play he's describing, he is VERY knowledgeable about the game, and his voice really sounds great on TV.
Watch the Olympics or the Frozen Four. Why is there no fighting and far fewer cheap shots? Because they're not tolerated there.
Because it's one-and-done match-ups. If you made Team Canada play Team USA (or Team Russia) for 4-7 games in a row, it would probably start becoming a VERY nasty affair by the end of the second game.
As well, you're dealing with the best of the best in the Olympics. There are no 3rd line players, or players whose job it is to "set the tone".
But that's not to say it can't get out of control some times (see: 1987 World Junior Championships).
And the Bullies were dethroned by the Canadiens, who set all things right in the hockey universe, and then the Flyers embarked on a 35-year period of being highly competitive but stuck playing second fiddle to dynasties in Long Island, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, New Jersey and Detroit. Not sure exactly when hockey was ruined; personally I didn't really enjoy the hockey being played between the strikes.
To me, the Broad Street Bullies died when Keenan left.
The 70's Canadiens played beautiful hockey, but the rest of the decade was a morass of dump-and-chase and brutal hits and stickwork. Not the fault of the Flyers, but they were the template. It also left a long legacy of garbage hockey in the minors. And the Candiens were only the Canadiens because they robbed the expansion teams blind.
From what I saw of pieces of the 3 games yesterday, the league told the refs to crack down on everything (except Milan Lucic, he can do whatever he wants).
Man, I went from having almost no hockey on TV last year, to finally getting an HDTV and a TV package that carried VS, and now there's 3 - 5 games on every night.
Actually, just a few days ago I saw this article pop up on my twitter feed. They come up with 34 true "goons" over the last four seasons. So that's somewhere around one per team.
but hockey is scared that its marginal clinging to major-sport status would be destroyed without the physical violence.
from start to finish, that really was just a despicable performance by pittsburgh.
Except the refs and league office aren't competent or unbiased enough to do it. They never have been and they never will be.
A lot of this #### happens in the playoffs because of the instigator rule; teams don't want to risk being shorthanded particularly in this lower-scoring era. I'd get rid of it. Understanding how Neanderthal this sounds, there's no getting around the fact that the best deterrent remains the threat of getting the crap kicked out of you if you get too chippy.
all the stuff about stickwork/violence as outlet/unique culture of the game is just nonsense.
Stickwork isn't. Violence is.
Guys like Matt Cooke didn't exist in the 80s.
And I don't think the problem is the 'goons' so much as the "pests" - (and my own definitions may be different than others) the goons deter, the pests instigate. Without the threat of getting the crap kicked out of you legitimately (like sort of what Polak did the other night), guys are skating around throwing dirty hits and getting their sticks up into faces.
I don't think the violence in and of itself is the issue - it's the dangerous, dirty play that needs to go.
But, by and large, as a Devil fan, I'm impressed by how completely the Flyers have dismantled the psyche of the of Penguins. We all know Pittsburgh is dirty, but apparently they're soft too. My hockey history knowledge isn't terribly extensive, but I guess that's how that goes: if you are tough, you don't need dirty; if you aren't, you do. At least since the 70s.
If they really want to increase scoring, they should go back to full 2 minute power plays no matter how often you score, like a Major.
You could do it, but you would have to give something major back to the goalies like going back to wood sticks. So if you did, what's the point of shrinking the pads? I would just increase the size of the nets.
Moreover actually enforcing the rule of law would not minimize the speed and physicality of the game. A clean hit would remain a clean hit. It's win-win. It just takes someone in the league to have the moral courage to stand up to the general managers.
Are you shitting me? I've been too busy to check the news today. That's absurd, and I'm in favor of lengthy suspensions!
Right. The Blackhawks have employed 2 goons this year, neither of whom is on the list, while Jamal Mayers, who isn't a goon, is. It's because they defined it as top 20 fighting majors per year, so it's a list of 'top goons' if anything. If they included PK time as well as PP time it'd remove the mistakes, but you need to get rid of the top 20 criteria if you want a list of goons, since they are by definition marginal players and often ride the AHL shuttle or the bench.
####### ridiculous. Yes, Shaw skated in behind the net rather recklessly and for that deserved a minor penalty. He didn't lean in with the shoulder or leave his feet. It's a young guy playing a bit out of control (as is Shaw's wont) but no way deserving of a 3-game suspension.
I wouldn't have a problem with three games if not for the other rulings. But Shanahan, from his comments, is clearly making his determinations off of a different standard than rational beings would. So whatever.
This is utter horse ####. The Coyotes gamed this the entire way acting like Smith couldn't practice. Shaw never should've even got the boot let alone this insanity.
There is no "tradition" of that kind of hit.
Hockey's kind of a ###### up sport, it seems.
####### #### #### #######.
Would it be taboo for me to suggest a hockey discussion site here? This is after all an OT thread. I wouldn't do such a thing for baseball.
Torres will get the book thrown at him, as he should, but Bob McKenzie tweeted that it was .83 seconds from loss of puck to hit. Still a late hit by a repeat offender, but as always with these things, it's hard to count time when watching the many, many replays. It's too bad about Lindros; he was my favourite player, and should be in the Hall of Fame.
i hope tomorrow's game is clean. but if it's not, if pittsburgh comes out headhunting again, there's going to be a big part of me hoping that crosby's career is ended. for a league to be so indifferent to the health and well-being of its players is just astounding to me. to allow this kind of blatant headhunting, not just by a player, but by an entire team (3 different penguins wound up getting suspended for 3 separate incidents in 1 ####### game. try to explain to me how that's something less than team-sanctioned), to say that they don't believe neal intended to hit couturier despite the fact that he went after another flyer's head on the very next ####### shift is just the worst kind of mickey mouse. the league office is just so completely ####### clueless that even if someone died on the ice on national TV, their heads would still be in the ####### sand and they'd still claim it was a legal ####### hit.
the league needs to burn. and it will. and it will in a very short amount of time. the NFL is being sued by 1000+ former players on account of the league fostering an unsafe working environment. watching this postseason, seeing what's happened to lindros and primeau and pronger, there's not a doubt in my mind that there's gonna be a reckoning. one of these days the league is gonna be put to the brink over its actions these last few years.
it's a ####### disgrace.
It's less about *when* Torres hit Hossa and more about *how* he hit him- leaving his feet, and aiming his shoulder directly at Hossa's head.
That hit absolutely grounded tonight's game to a halt. The first ten minutes of the first period were very exciting- lots of end-to-end action, plenty of shots on goal. The action almost completely stopped after that.
This post-season has been such a shitshow.
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20120417_Phil_Sheridan__Flyers-Penguins_series_bringing_concussion_issue_to_head.html
Jaromir Jagr is a future Hall of Famer whose leadership and effort have sometimes been questioned. He's been a revelation for the Flyers, more than picking up the slack from losing Richards, Carter and Lleino. (The Richards and Carter trades have been talked about ad nauseum, but it really cannot be stressed how well both deals have worked out for the Flyers).
The last two assists Jagr had in the 8-4 win were breathtaking. They were totally vintage Jagr, plays straight from his prime. One was a gorgeous cross-ice pass for a one-timer that I could have scored on; the other was an incredible individual effort to bring the puck down the wing with a defenseman draped all over him, then making a one-armed pass to Giroux's favorite scoring spot. It's just really rare to see a legendary player of his calibre, playing at his age, and completely flying under the radar.
I don't think so. I could use a general-interest hockey site, for one.
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