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Wednesday, July 18, 2012

Nightengale: Blockbuster trade proposed between Marlins, Red Sox

Alfonso Soriano is also available.

The Miami Marlins have approached the Boston Red Sox about a blockbuster trade that would send left fielder Carl Crawford and a prospect to South Florida for infielder Hanley Ramirez and closer Heath Bell, according to three officials with knowledge of the talks who spoke to USA TODAY Sports on the condition of anonymity because negotiations are ongoing.

The trade would involve three All-Star players signed to contracts guaranteeing $239 million, making it the second-biggest swap of contracts in baseball history. ...

The biggest impediment to a deal, according to one of the officials, is the Marlins’ indecision whether to unload their high-paid players and abandon playoff hopes for this season and build for next season, or try to overcome the nine-game deficit they face in the NL East and 5½ games they trail for an NL wild-card berth.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 02:46 PM | 42 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: carl crawford, hanley ramirez, marlins, red sox

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   1. T.J. Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4186362)
Buster Olney says this was discussed briefly then put to death.
   2. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4186368)
Buster Olney says this was discussed briefly then put to death.

it deserves a Viking funeral
   3. JJ1986 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4186370)
It seems insanely dishonest for a reporter to take "the Marlins approached the Red Sox about..." and then publish an article as though this were a possible trade.
   4. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4186372)
It's still weird to read "Miami Marlins."
   5. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4186373)
If it involves trading away Carl Crawford's contract, and the Red Sox were the team approached, it's a possible trade.

Although I can think of few things surer than that Carl Crawford will, if traded away from Boston, put up several 5-WAR seasons in succession.
   6. tjm1 Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4186385)
I'd be willing to bet more money on Hanley Ramirez being done than on Crawford being done. Hanley's halfway into a second off-year, and even 2010 was a bit of a down year for him. He had a bad reputation for his work ethic even in the minor leagues. He wouldn't be the first player who looked like a superstar in his early 20's and just fell off a cliff in his mid-to-late 20's.
   7. Tripon Posted: July 18, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4186397)
Hanley seems to be the kind of guy who wants to play in front of the lights, and also a change of scenery guy. Trade him to L.A. or New York and I wouldn't bet against him to suddenly start playing better.
   8. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4186402)
Hanley seems to be the kind of guy who wants to play in front of the lights

But then we won't be able to see the lights.
   9. Dale Sams Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4186409)
Damnit I said two threads about Carl Crawford in one day are too many!
   10. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4186410)
I'd be willing to bet more money on Hanley Ramirez being done than on Crawford being done.


Yeah, but unlike Crawford, he actually used to be a big star. Crawford's "star" status was always a chimaera based on faith in defensive stats.
   11. Dale Sams Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4186413)
Crawford's "star" status was always a chimaera based on faith in defensive stats.


And now it's come out that "manager faith' is his kryptonite...along with "Other players not being afraid of him in the 6 spot". Fortunatly he's pretty immune to being called "a monday".
   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4186417)

Hanley seems to be the kind of guy who wants to play in front of the lights


Are you saying this thing doesn't have enough lights?
   13. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 18, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4186443)
And now it's come out that "manager faith' is his kryptonite

Oh, do, please, pair him with Ozzie.
   14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4186462)
Crawford's "star" status was always a chimaera based on faith in defensive stats.
The idea that a 50-steal baserunner with good instincts in the field was an elite defensive player was never implausible. His baserunning plus batting average and medium power made him a well above average offensive contributor either way.
   15. thetailor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4186469)
"The trade would involve three All-Star players signed to contracts guaranteeing $239 million, making it the second-biggest swap of contracts in baseball history."

Wait -- what is the largest swap of contracts ever? Is this obvious? Am I forgetting something?
   16. BDC Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4186471)
AROD was making more than that alone when traded for Soriano.
   17. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4186472)
It says right afterwards in the article that it was the A-Rod for Soriano deal, with A-Rod at $252 million and everyone else at about $5 million.

These numbers seem to factor in the years of the contracts that have already been paid, though. If Vernon Wells gets traded for Barry Zito today is that a $252 million trade, because of two contracts signed six years ago?
   18. Walt Davis Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:36 PM (#4186488)
The Miami Marlins have approached the Boston Red Sox

The biggest impediment to a deal, according to one of the officials, is the Marlins’ indecision

This sounds like all my relationships

   19. thetailor Posted: July 18, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4186490)
#17: Yeah, that's my take on it. Why count money that was paid out in years prior? What a sensational non-article.
   20. boteman Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4186522)
Heath Bell was unavailable for comment, as he was last seen entering a Miami-area Porkys BBQ franchise.
   21. Brian C Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4186535)
What a sensational non-article.

Remember when Nightengale reported that the Cubs had decided to keep Jim Hendry, and then we later found out that the Cubs had already fired Jim Hendry by the time Nightengale wrote that? That was kinda sensational, too.
   22. Gamingboy Posted: July 18, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4186537)
It should have been put to death quickly.
   23. King Berenger Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4186739)
I'll defend articles like these any day - is your life honestly worse off for knowing an interesting possible deal? If they don't try to sell it off as sensational, so much the better, but just to know the possible trades that are going on, that have at one point been discussed, I think is fantastic. That's what being a fan of anything to the obsessed level we all are is about, caring so much about this type of minutiae.
   24. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 18, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4186749)
King Berenger is correct. Unless there is no source at all other than the writer's fevered brain I am always glad to see indications of a team's thought process.
   25. Mattbert Posted: July 18, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4186768)
The biggest impediment to a deal, according to one of the officials,

Was that Larry Beinfest put down the bong?

is the Marlins’ indecision whether to unload their high-paid players

I'm sure that would go down AWESOME with the taxpayers of Miami who bankrolled the small mountain of tackiness you call a ballpark. But wait, who would even take those contracts?

a blockbuster trade that would send left fielder Carl Crawford and a prospect to South Florida for infielder Hanley Ramirez and closer Heath Bell

Unload your underperforming high-paid players by trading them for an even underperforminger and more highly-paid player! Who is signed for two years longer than either of your guys! And who is injured and will need a major surgery no later than this winter! Another hit, Larry?

Unless that prospect was Bogaerts, Barnes, or Bradley, the only reason this deal wouldn't happen is Ben Cherington forgetting to put the speakerphone on mute before squealing with glee and doing a chest bump with John Henry.
   26. Dale Sams Posted: July 19, 2012 at 02:14 AM (#4186799)
the only reason this deal wouldn't happen is Ben Cherington forgetting to put the speakerphone on mute before squealing with glee and doing a chest bump with John Henry.


You're forgetting this is Ben Cherington we're talking about.
   27. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 19, 2012 at 08:26 AM (#4186836)
I'm sure that would go down AWESOME with the taxpayers of Miami who bankrolled the small mountain of tackiness you call a ballpark. But wait, who would even take those contracts?


Wouldn't the Marlins actually be paying more for Crawford than they have invested in Bell/Ramirez?

Ben Cherington...doing a chest bump with John Henry.


If this ever happens I want it on video. I can't imagine how awkward that would be.
   28. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 19, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4186841)

You're forgetting this is Ben Cherington we're talking about.


The guy has been a GM for HALF A ####### SEASON and his team is 1 game out of the playoffs while virtually every star on the team has either been hurt or underperformed. WTF, give the guy a bit of slack now and then.

Sorry, nothing personal Dale, just tired of people bashing Cherington.
   29. ecwcat Posted: July 19, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4186846)
I think Hanley's back never fully healed and he's done. Marlins fans like to play psychologists and accuse him of dogging it or not being motivated, but you can look at his monthly splits all you want- he hasn't been the same since the initial DL stint.

Miami treats Hanley as Public Enemy #1 and Heath Bell as #2. The Marlins are making tons of cash (28,000 fans a game @ $20 a seat) and need to show they are serious about next year to keep it up. Marlins fans are so irrational that they want Hanley cut.

For the Red Sox, they cut loose a major sunk cost and probably gain two people that can help for the short term, not that it matters much since both teams are out of the playoffs anyway.

I wouldn't necessarily make this trade or propose it, but it gets filed as "problem for problem trade" and both teams are hoping that a change of environment will help the players.
   30. jyjjy Posted: July 19, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4186862)
not that it matters much since both teams are out of the playoffs anyway.

Competition for the second AL wild card slot is rather anemic to say the least. Currently there are 6 teams within one game of the second wild card; Tigers, A's, Indians, Orioles, Rays and Red Sox with the Jays 3 games back. I'd bet on the Red Sox taking it over any of the others.
   31. BDC Posted: July 19, 2012 at 09:46 AM (#4186868)
I think Hanley's back never fully healed and he's done. Marlins fans like to play psychologists and accuse him of dogging it or not being motivated, but you can look at his monthly splits all you want- he hasn't been the same since the initial DL stint

That would be a great shame. But it happens – it happened to Nomar, and it might very well be happening to Hanley. "Done" is relative, of course: Hanley could easily hit 20 HR this year, and Nomar did that one year for the Dodgers late in his career; but the phrase "shadow of former self" comes to mind in both cases.
   32. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 19, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4186879)
You can draw a pretty definitive line in Hanley's career with the day Fredi Gonzalez was fired for benching his lazy ass as your cutoff point.

I don't like Hanley so I'll concede I'm probably not fair minded on this but for a guy with a record of attitude issues to be publicly told in that way "you are running the asylum" I don't find it unreasonable that he would slack off after that. He made his money, he wasn't being held accountable and he just did whatever the #### he wanted after that.

Like I said, not a Hanley Ramirez fan here.
   33. Nasty Nate Posted: July 19, 2012 at 10:25 AM (#4186888)
Wow, Hanley at 28 years old might be the record youngest player to be prematurely called "done" in the new BBTF insanity of erroneously declaring the end of a position player's career, although I am probably forgetting someone even younger.
   34. Randy Jones Posted: July 19, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4186891)
although I am probably forgetting someone even younger.


Melky
   35. McCoy Posted: July 19, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4186893)
Wow, Hanley at 28 years old might be the record youngest player to be prematurely called "done" in the new BBTF insanity of erroneously declaring the end of a position player's career, although I am probably forgetting someone even younger.

Unfortunately you can never be premature in calling a Cubs player done.
   36. Nasty Nate Posted: July 19, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4186904)

Unfortunately you can never be premature in calling a Cubs player done.


Alfonso Soriano has been available to be called 'done' since 2009!
   37. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 19, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4186907)
I thought the Heath Bell deal was terrible, but I thought he'd at least be useful this year. That is hilarious.
   38. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 19, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4186959)
Officially, if they can get a useful player or two for Crawford, it will be the worst Red Sox trade since the Diamondbacks said, "You want our near-HoF starting pitcher? That'll cost you two injured minor leaguers and some cannon fodder!"

I'd Buhner all over.
   39. TerpNats Posted: July 19, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4186982)
I think Hanley's back never fully healed and he's done. Marlins fans like to play psychologists and accuse him of dogging it or not being motivated, but you can look at his monthly splits all you want- he hasn't been the same since the initial DL stint.
As opposed to oblivious Bosox fans?
   40. Swedish Chef Posted: July 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4186993)
Wow, Hanley at 28 years old might be the record youngest player to be prematurely called "done" in the new BBTF insanity of erroneously declaring the end of a position player's career, although I am probably forgetting someone even younger.

There were some that implied that Justin Upton was done at 24 in that trade thread.
   41. Nasty Nate Posted: July 19, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4187006)
I think Hanley's back never fully healed and he's done. Marlins fans like to play psychologists and accuse him of dogging it or not being motivated, but you can look at his monthly splits all you want- he hasn't been the same since the initial DL stint.


As opposed to oblivious Bosox fans?


Sox fans haven't been the same since Hanley's initial DL stint?
   42. tjm1 Posted: July 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4187027)
Regarding calling young players done: When was Ellis Valentine done? Valentine at age 24 was roughly the same player as Justin Upton at age 24. I'm not saying it *will* happen with Upton, or even that it's likely to happen with Upton - just that it can. The Mets traded Jeff Reardon and another player for Valentine, thinking he'd turn it around (and maybe also not realizing how good Reardon was). BBREF is full of players who were much better in their early 20's than in their late 20's and who didn't play in their 30's, all without a catastrophic injury. I'd give Hanley Ramirez a 50-50 chance of being one of those guys. Not many guys come back from two consecutive off-years. Upton's future is brighter, in my view.

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