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Wednesday, August 13, 2014

NotGraphs: A Dangerous Experiment: 25 Adam Dunns.

Thus I began this mad, stupid experiment. The premise is simple: using everyone’s favorite realistic baseball simulation, Out of the Park 2015, I created teams of baseball players by cloning a single player until they filled the active roster, and set them against each other in 162 games of gory combat. The results exceeded my wildest expectations.

The four teams in the CBL (Clone Baseball League) are:

• The Adam Dunns
• The Dee Gordons
• The Bartolo Colons
• The Koji Ueharas

These are the jokes!

Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 07:17 PM | 61 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: adam dunn, bartolo colon, dee gordon, humor, koji uehara

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. asinwreck Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:10 PM (#4770594)
Please read the box scores. This is lovely.
   2. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4770598)
I feel like there is a severe lack of data to be able to estimate players performing certain tasks, like Dee Gordon pitching or Colon playing center field.

I'd bet the Jason Lanes or Rick Ankiels could dominate a league like this.
   3. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:19 PM (#4770601)
I found this sort of accidentally and was surprised to find that it was actually very funny.
   4. steagles Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:25 PM (#4770608)
reminds me of the ruining madden series on SBnation.
   5. steagles Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:33 PM (#4770616)
the Colons starters, facing nine pitchers, nine shortstops and nine Adam Dunns, only managed an ERA of 7.80, barely better than the Dunns themselves.
this could probably be explined by the dunns getting to pitch to two pitchers while the colon's had to pitch to two hitters.
   6. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:35 PM (#4770619)
Who would you take for a historical clone team? Babe Ruth is the obvious one, but I think I'd take Jimmie Foxx- not much pitching experience, but he performed well there in limited MLB action (even starting two games!). He also had over 100 games at catcher, the next most important position. The only positions he never played in MLB were second base and center field. Oh, and his hitting was pretty good, too.
   7. The District Attorney Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4770621)
Honus Wagner.
   8. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:38 PM (#4770622)
Who would you take for a historical clone team?


Mike Schmidt would be a good choice. Probably better than Foxx, if you timeline them and Ruth would have some trouble as an infielder, except for 1B.
   9. cardsfanboy Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:39 PM (#4770624)
Who would you take for a historical clone team? Babe Ruth is the obvious one, but I think I'd take Jimmie Foxx- not much pitching experience, but he performed well there in limited MLB action (even starting two games!). He also had over 100 games at catcher, the next most important position. The only positions he never played in MLB were second base and center field. Oh, and his hitting was pretty good, too.


I imagine you would definitely take an elite hitter, as they will just pound the other team into submission. I think that almost all major leaguers could hit around 80mph as a pitcher and that is enough to keep the other teams honest...sure they might score 9 or so runs a game, but your elite offense should be even better. I just can't imagine a team created by cloned pitchers(peak pedro say) is going to be able to handle the sheer offensive juggernaut coming up each time. And then they wouldn't ever be able to muscle a high scoring game.
   10. Swoboda is freedom Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:39 PM (#4770625)
Bob Gibson. Maybe Mike Hampton or Carlos Zambrano or even Dontrelle Willis. Good hitting pitchers who were also athletic.
   11. Batman Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:49 PM (#4770634)
John Paciorek.
   12. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:49 PM (#4770635)
Warren Spahn? I guess being left-handed would be a problem in the infield.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:52 PM (#4770638)
Bob Gibson. Maybe Mike Hampton or Carlos Zambrano or even Dontrelle Willis. Good hitting pitchers who were also athletic.


That would pretty much be Walter Johnson, I think if you are looking for great pitcher who was a pretty excellent bat, Walter Johnson should be the first name to pop in your head. (and he did play some field...13 games in the outfield in his career)
   14. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 13, 2014 at 08:53 PM (#4770641)
We talked about this a while ago, but ignored the pitching component. The change in the blocking the plate rule opens the question up a little, because "toughness" is of a little less importance. With pitching included, I think the left-handed Ruth would go a lot father than people would expect.

   15. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:07 PM (#4770652)
I think there might also be value in finding a hitter with a cannon arm and just hoping that his bat and fielding make up for the fact that all he throws are fastballs. Willie Mays or Roberto Clemente, someone like that.
   16. zonk Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:07 PM (#4770653)
I had an e-mail exchange with someone from BPro - Law maybe? - about 10 years ago on the same subject... We were arguing position scarcity in roto terms and it turned a pure baseball argument exactly along these lines: If you had to clone a player/player type to fill a roster, who would you take?

In the end, I know that we ended up agreeing you'd be better off with a hitter. I preferred to sacrifice a little hitting to take a more athletic SS/2B/CF, the counterpoint was a lumbering thumper.

Just goes to show how sabermetrics has changed, I guess -- this was back in the day when OPS was king and defense wasn't yet something folks tried to really use in deep numbers discussions.

I should see if the old thread is still in my inbox somewhere - some good stuff as I recall....
   17. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:23 PM (#4770661)
As soon as I saw all the Adam Dunn names in the box scores, I immediately flashed to this old internet meme: John Madden John Madden John Madden John Madden or this famous grammatical oddity.
   18. Into the Void Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:24 PM (#4770663)
Barry Bonds?
   19. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:28 PM (#4770666)
How did Adam Dunn only manage 81 HR and 34 2B in a season where he had over 1000 PA? Slacker!

   20. cardsfanboy Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:34 PM (#4770669)
How did Adam Dunn only manage 81 HR and 34 2B in a season where he had over 1000 PA? Slacker!


At his peak he hit about 40 homeruns per 600 pa...
   21. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:38 PM (#4770673)
At his peak he hit about 40 homeruns per 600 pa


Yeah, but he was batting against pitchers in those days.
   22. PreservedFish Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:50 PM (#4770685)
I love this sort of thing. Nicely done.
   23. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 09:57 PM (#4770690)
By far the funniest bit is the sad story of Dee Gordon, the pitcher:

Without a doubt, however, the saddest storyline of the season belongs to Dee P. Gordon, who returned from a month-long injury to take the mound on August 8 and pitched every single inning of the final 37 games of the season. His stat line reads like the end of a Poe short story (click to embiggen):

. . .

Because Out of the Park isn’t programmed to allow forfeitures, the Gordons were frozen with exactly nine unbroken players left on their roster, and thus there was no one to save Dee P. from his fate. That he even won four games (one a 51-50 nailbiter) is kind of amazing. The lowlight was definitely October 2, when a certainly hollow, cadaverous Gordon threw 944 pitches in a 164-16 loss, in which he somehow played both pitcher and first base. His game score was -813.

Over those final two months, Gordon suffered the following injuries: a torn labrum, a herniated disc, a sore wrist, biceps tendinitis, a forearm strain, two damaged elbow ligaments, two mild hamstring strains, a sore ankle, a sore forearm, acute elbow soreness, a sort thumb, a strained hamstring, a wild calf strain, an intercostal strain, and a tired arm.

The day after the season ended, and roster restrictions were lifted, Out of the Park destroyed the painting in Dee P. Gordon’s attic, and he immediately suffered a back spasms that shelved him for the next 19 months. The insanity and the peeling of his own skin were not included in the diagnosis. The game listed his morale as “unhappy”.
   24. Cargo Cultist Posted: August 13, 2014 at 10:01 PM (#4770695)
Don Drysdale or Babe Ruth. They could both pitch and hit.
   25. The District Attorney Posted: August 13, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4770700)
Dee's dad should be able to teach him how to be a non-horrendous pitcher, no?

A "wild calf strain" sounds like a more appropriate injury for Buck Farmer...
   26. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 10:11 PM (#4770706)
The Dee Gordon story was funny, although a team with only 9 healthy Dee Gordons would presumably let more than one of them pitch, especially if that one was throwing with a torn labrum.
   27. SteveM. Posted: August 13, 2014 at 10:50 PM (#4770725)
How big would the post-game spread have to be for a team of 25 Colon's?
   28. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 13, 2014 at 10:53 PM (#4770727)
Don Drysdale or Babe Ruth. They could both pitch and hit.

Ruth also used to catch when he played at St. Mary's. A team of young Ruths might beat a team of Dunns by about 879 to 3.
   29. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: August 13, 2014 at 11:29 PM (#4770736)
Martin Dihigo?
   30. OCF Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:39 AM (#4770750)
Monte Ward?
   31. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:41 AM (#4770752)
Don Newcombe was a great all round player. He'd have to be in the mix for something like this.
   32. steagles Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:51 AM (#4770756)
shouldn't someone have mentioned ichiro by now?

great contact hitter, great speed, great defense, underrated power, and a rocket for an arm. seems like that combination would be ideal for this kind of thing.
   33. kthejoker Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:15 AM (#4770762)
John Olerud pitched well in college. Lefty O'Doul, Bob Caruthers, Smoky Joe Wood.

I think I'd go with Stan Musial - scouted and signed for his pitching. Even as a lefty in the infield, having 9 of him in the lineup would be an unstoppable juggernaut of offense. They could routinely score 100 runs in a game. Hell, they could have a real shot at scoring 100 runs in an inning against the Dee Gordons.
   34. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:28 AM (#4770768)
I feel like anybody who throws lefty is going to have issues. I'm kind of surprised nobody has mentioned Greg Maddux. Also, Kenley Jansen was a catcher in the minors so an all Jansen defense might not be too bad, especially with a stream of Jansens coming out of the pen.
   35. PreservedFish Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:28 AM (#4770769)
They could routinely score 100 runs in a game. Hell, they could have a real shot at scoring 100 runs in an inning against the Dee Gordons.


I think Stan is a nice nomination here. But I am going to call BS on this.
   36.     Hey Gurl Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:36 AM (#4770773)
This is so ####### awesome I wish I'd thought of it. Also wish he'd done 30 teams with 30 extreme players.
   37. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:56 AM (#4770777)

Also wish he'd done 30 teams with 30 extreme players.


The Dave Kingmans would have been like the Adam Dunns x1000.
   38. baxter Posted: August 14, 2014 at 02:15 AM (#4770782)
Mark McGwire = Pitcher at USC, a top program.
   39. Moeball Posted: August 14, 2014 at 03:16 AM (#4770789)
Don Drysdale or Babe Ruth. They could both pitch and hit.


If Don Drysdale was playing against Babe Ruth, the Babe would obviously win most contests.

But if it was just "1958 Don Drysdale", remember that Babe Ruth was a lefty pitcher. In 1958, Drysdale's batting numbers against lefties were just completely insane. Particularly at home in L.A. at the Coliseum. Babe might never get him out...

If you're looking for a top flight player who can play many positions - and actually field them all very well while also being a good hitter - unlike Adam Dunn, who basically would be a stone-handed DH at all positions in the field - I would recommend going with someone like Jackie Robinson or Gil McDougald.
   40. toratoratora Posted: August 14, 2014 at 07:48 AM (#4770804)

Catfish Hunter might not be bad either-he could hit.
   41. frannyzoo Posted: August 14, 2014 at 07:58 AM (#4770806)
Before TSN's online Strat-o-Matic drove me away with bad business practices, a bunch of us created two "World's Worst Leagues," taking .50 scrubs (in position) and battling it out for last place. I proved even lousier at creating bad teams than good ones and was never in contention for the basement. Fun times though, as is this article. Somebody please create a full mlb set of teams and hit the button! I'd love to see it, but don't quite have time myself.
   42. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 14, 2014 at 08:01 AM (#4770808)
If you're looking at primarily pitchers who could hit some, Wes Ferrell has to be in the mix. And I'll bet he learned something about catching from his brother.
   43. zonk Posted: August 14, 2014 at 08:18 AM (#4770812)
Before TSN's online Strat-o-Matic drove me away with bad business practices, a bunch of us created two "World's Worst Leagues," taking .50 scrubs (in position) and battling it out for last place. I proved even lousier at creating bad teams than good ones and was never in contention for the basement. Fun times though, as is this article. Somebody please create a full mlb set of teams and hit the button! I'd love to see it, but don't quite have time myself.


I did this once - not a full league, but I traded away all my players and went full Astros X 10... my entire 25 man roster was either minor league FAs available in the pool. Andy Marte got 500 PAs... Brandon Wood was my SS... I then also signed/acquired every player around 40 nearing any milestones - the corpse of Johnny Damon played CF, Omar Vizquel played SS, Bobby Abreu played LF... my 'ace' was Jamie Moyer. I went 26-136... but you'll be happy to know Omar Vizquel got to 3000 hits.
   44. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 14, 2014 at 08:27 AM (#4770815)
My interpretation of this would be to create four teams:

Team A - best hitting players at each position (oWAR) in history, including pitchers
Team B - best fielding players at each position (dWAR/GG) in history, including pitchers
Team C - historically average hitting/fielding players at each position, but best pitchers of all time
Team D - The 1998 New York Yankees

I'd turn off injuries and minor leagues, and let them go.
   45. AROM Posted: August 14, 2014 at 09:30 AM (#4770842)
Can anyone recommend a good sim? I have a 30 team fictional league that goes back 30+ years. Right now, about 1500 players on the data disk. I'm looking for something that is relatively easy to set up, where I could import my players by setting their stats and ratings in a spreadsheet or CSV and importing it. I don't need animation, like Micro League used to do, but prefer at least a visual output, like APBA does or OOTP for the iPad. I love playing OOTP on the iPad, but it doesn't have room to customize a league.

What I've used in the past: Dice and my own rules (1983-86), Microleague (1987-96), APBA (1997-present). APBA doesn't run on today's 64 bit machines, and I'd like to find something with better pitcher and defense ratings to accommodate the modern game.

With only 4 strikeout ratings, XY, X, Y, and blank, you can't have the ranges between the Kimbrel/Champans and say, Henderson
Alvarez. And there's only one defense rating, so there's no way to make a Jeter type with no range but very good error avoidance. Other than that, APBA has been a great ride.
   46. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 14, 2014 at 09:37 AM (#4770847)
Looking at Adam G. Dunn's "crazy" stat line:

1. He only struck out 154 times in 1015 PA. Real life Adam Dunn has never struck out fewer than 164 times in a full season (651 PA). EDIT: Based on 2005 (his lowest K rate season, both per PA and AB), he should have had at least 254 (based on PA) or 209 (based on AB).
2. The 1.447 OPS looks impossible, until you remember that real-life Barry Bonds in '04 had a 1.422 OPS and 2 other times was over 1.37.
   47. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 14, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4770867)
How big would the post-game spread have to be for a team of 25 Colon's?


They'd start eating each other by about the second homestand. No way they'd have enough players to complete the season. Although I guess if the premise includes cloning in the first place, you could always make more.
   48. An Athletic in Powderhorn™ Posted: August 14, 2014 at 10:05 AM (#4770873)
AROM: I've never used it, but OotP for the PC does have an "import rosters from CSV" function. And it has a ridiculous amount of customization options. That seems like a good fit for what you're looking for.
   49. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 14, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4770887)
My interpretation of this would be to create four teams:

Team A - best hitting players at each position (oWAR) in history, including pitchers
Team B - best fielding players at each position (dWAR/GG) in history, including pitchers
Team C - historically average hitting/fielding players at each position, but best pitchers of all time
Team D - The 1998 New York Yankees


How big a roster would we be talking about? If you allowed for a 25 man roster, Team A could feature a starting rotation of Ruth, Dihigo, Gibson, Ferrell and Newcombe, with Walter Johnson in long relief. They'd be unbeatable.

But if it's just a starting nine, and you had to play a long series, Team A would be dead meat unless you had 3 or 4 days off between games.

Team B couldn't possibly compete. Great fielding alone wouldn't be enough to win many games against those other three teams.

Team C would have to win a lot of 1-0 games to stay competitive against either Teams A or D, but they could do it in a short series.

Team D would crush team B, and could hold its own against team A if the rosters were limited to a starting lineup in a long series, but they couldn't compete with a 25 man roster Team A. I'd give Team C the edge over them, since great power pitchers can shut down almost any team in any era.
   50. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 14, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4770918)
Re: #49

Team A - It would be a full roster (25 players) and the whole league would play 162 games (54 games against each team). I would force the players to only play one position, so if you want to use Ruth as a P, then he can only be utilized as a pitcher.
Team B - Using most GG awards, there would be some decent pitchers (Maddux, Kaat, Gibson, Shantz, Langston, Mussina, Guidry, P.Niekro,etc.), and some good hitters (both Pudges at C, Hernandez and Mattingly, Alomar and Sandberg, Ozzie and Vizquel, B.Robinson and Schmidt, Clemente/Mays/GriffeyJr).
Team C - I'm not sure how you'd determine that a player is "average" at hitting/pitching, but you could simply take the average ratings in history and assign them to imaginary players (or players close enough to those at each position).

I understand that some teams would whip other teams in this format, but that still would be interesting to see...

(Oh, and no DH.)
   51. Ron J2 Posted: August 14, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4770928)
I loved it. Very nice writeup of a cute experiment.
   52. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: August 14, 2014 at 11:26 AM (#4770967)
Team A - It would be a full roster (25 players) and the whole league would play 162 games (54 games against each team). I would force the players to only play one position, so if you want to use Ruth as a P, then he can only be utilized as a pitcher.


Under that format, I don't see how that team wouldn't dominate.

Sample roster using 8 starting position players, backup catcher, 1B, 2 IF, 2 OF, and 11 pitchers:

C - Piazza, Fisk
1B - Gehrig, Foxx
2B - Hornsby
SS - Wagner
3B - Mathews
LF - Bonds
CF - Cobb
RF - Ruth

IF - Collins (#2 2B), ARod (most owar among those SS and/or 3B, but not a full timer at either)
OF - Mays, Aaron (took the 2 OF with the most WAR after the top 3.)

P (in descending order of owar)

Red Ruffing
Red Lucas
Walter Johnson
Geroge Mullin
Wes Ferrell
Geroge Uhle
Bob Lemon
Early Wynn
Don Newcombe
Doc Crandall
Schoolboy Rowe

The most GG team may hold their won pitching wise, maybe even slightly better, and they are superior at C as well (I Rod and Bench), but they get killed everywhere else. The IF of Hernandez, Alomar, Smith, and Brooks, with Mattingly, Sandberg, and Vizquel on the bench? The hitting stars 4th and 5th OF are Mays and Aaron. The GGers are Kaline and either Andruw Jones or Ichiro.
   53. PreservedFish Posted: August 14, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4770977)
I don't see why the fielding team couldn't take Willie Mays for its centerfielder. Limiting it to actual GG awards won is silly.
   54. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4771017)
All-time hitting and fielding teams using adjusted batting wins (essentially oWAR without the positional component) and dWAR:

The fourteen top players in adjusted batting wins: Ruth, Bonds, Cobb, Williams, Musial, Aaron, Gehrig, Speaker, Hornsby, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, Ott, Wagner. There are no catchers here, so we'll include Foxx (15) and Piazza (72). Ott spent a season at 3B, so we'll leave him there and just remove Robinson and Mays as we have too many outfielders. There are still too many outfielders so we'll replace Mantle and Speaker with Pujols (16) and A-Rod (26, timelined ahead of Collins) So, the all-offense lineup becomes:

C: Piazza, Foxx
1B: Gehrig (Musial, Foxx)
2B: Hornsby
3B: Ott (ARod)
SS: Wagner (ARod)
LF: Bonds (Williams, Musial)
CF: Cobb
RF: Ruth (Aaron)

The pitchers thanks to Misirlou would be:

Red Ruffing
Red Lucas
Walter Johnson
Geroge Mullin
Wes Ferrell
Geroge Uhle
Bob Lemon
Early Wynn
Don Newcombe
Doc Crandall
Schoolboy Rowe

Now, the all defense team we can take the top player in total zone runs at each position and then build the bench with the guys with most total zone runs from wild cards:

C: Ivan Rodriguez
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Bill Maezeroski
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Ozzie Smith
LF: Barry Bonds
CF: Andruw Jones
RF: Roberto Clemente

Bench: Yadier Molina (back up catcher), Mark Belanger, Carl Yastrzemski, Cal Ripkin, Buddy Bell, Paul Blair (Mays just misses the cut unfortunately)

bb-ref does not have a leaderboard for total zone runs for pitchers.
   55. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4771029)
Bucky Walters came up as a (poor hitting) 3B. Turned out okay at the pitching thing. In his MVP year, he threw 319 IP with a 2.29 ERA (170 ERA+) and hit .325/.357/.433 (110 OPS+).
   56. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4771034)
Team C - I'm not sure how you'd determine that a player is "average" at hitting/pitching, but you could simply take the average ratings in history and assign them to imaginary players (or players close enough to those at each position).

I made a simple stab at the Most Average Team, at least the position players. From BBRef I got a list of the 40 guys with 3000+ PAs, a WAA between 1 and -1, and an Rfield between 10 and -10. The team below, choosing players by total PAs rather than anything else:

Pos Name           OPS+   WAA  Rfield
C   Ivey Wingo       90   0.1   
-9.0
1B  Fred Merkle     109  
-0.8   -9.0
2B  Damion Easley    92  
-0.6   -0.4
3B  Jim Davenport    90  
-0.6    7.0
SS  Rich Aurilia     99  
-0.9   -5.2
CF  Sam Chapman     107   0.2   
-8.0
OF  Frank Schulte   115  
-0.2    4.0
OF  Jeromy Burnitz  112  
-0.5   -5.2

Bench
:
C   Gregg Zaun       91  -0.1   -1.0
1B  Eddie Robinson  113   0.3   
-7.3
IF  Buck Weaver      92   0.9    4.0
IF  Connie Ryan      90  -0.3    4.9
OF  Darryl Hamilton  96  
-0.1   -7.3
OF  Roy Johnson     108  
-0.8   -4.0 

   57. PepTech Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4771038)
+1 to Ankiel. And next time try Randy Johnson, who had a perfect - OK, "uneventful", whatever - inning in left field for the M's in the early 90s.
   58. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 14, 2014 at 12:28 PM (#4771040)
If Randy Johnson had to catch Randy Johnson, there'd be a lot of guys reaching on strikeout-wild pitch.
   59. Ron J2 Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4771076)
Bob Lemon made the majors as a 20 year old third-baseman. Didn't hit and then came WWII. Still, a career OPS+ of 82, the ability to play infield and outfield at the major league level is a nice start.

Roger Bresnahan reached the majors as an 18 year old pitcher -- with a 110 ERA+ in 41 IP. Played a reasonable (or more) amount at every position. His results at SS give us a hint about the results you could expect from an elite athlete with no experience at the position.
   60. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: August 14, 2014 at 01:06 PM (#4771077)
I don't see why the fielding team couldn't take Willie Mays for its centerfielder. Limiting it to actual GG awards won is silly.


They do. The top 3 OF in GG are Mays, Clemente, and Griffey Jr.
   61. Jose Canusee Posted: August 16, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4772357)
Ted Williams pitched a couple of innings, and though a LHB threw right. But I think the intent was not to get multiple tool players but extremes. Maybe like Aroldis Chapman, who might have a tough time hitting and fielding but holds down opponents through many 3K innings, and Kingman as suggested above (think he also pitched in college) as Dunn alternate, and Deion Sanders as a non-infield ready Gordon replacement (can they allow them to improve as the season goes along so that Chapman no longer bats .300 on bunts?)

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