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Saturday, July 04, 2009

NY Daily News: Harper: Yankees Phil Hughes solid relief work is just what Joba Chamberlain needs

Phil Hughes hasn’t just been a revelation as a late-inning reliever, he’s done the impossible: he’s essentially put an end to the Great Joba Debate.

Right? Nobody ever said Joba Chamberlain couldn’t be an effective starter; the issue was always finding another lockdown reliever to get the ball to Mariano Rivera, and even though the sample size is still fairly small, Hughes sure looks like the answer.

As laid-back as Chamberlain was fiery in late-inning relief, Hughes may never set off the type of Joba-mania that we saw in 2007, but unless you long for whirling fist pumps, what’s the difference?

Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: July 04, 2009 at 03:00 PM | 35 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 03:53 PM (#3242065)

Oh, no. Now next year we have to have this war all over again when the Yankees (correctly) move Hughes back to the rotation to replace Wang or Pettitte.

2. Tripon Posted: July 04, 2009 at 03:57 PM (#3242066)

Hughes is a relief pitcher at best.

3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:04 PM (#3242070)

Hughes is a relief pitcher at best.

Yup, just like Bucchloz, Masterson and Bowden.

No pitcher with mid-90's heat, and a good curve, who failed to establish himself in the rotation by age-23 ever went on to do anything but pitch middle relief.

4. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:12 PM (#3242072)

Hughes has been downright nasty as a reliever, 16 Ks in 13 and two thirds innings with 3 BBs and 1 HR. And he's only allowed runs in one of his appearances. With Hughes, Robertson and Aceves the bullpen has three really strong options right now. Bruney went from being the number two guy in the pen to the number five guy while he was on the DL.

5. JC in DC Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:15 PM (#3242073)

Every Yankee thread really should end up talking about Jesus.

6. Tripon Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:16 PM (#3242074)

snapper, its just a dumb meme.

7. Melo's Love Handles (NJ) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:24 PM (#3242078)

Jesus Montero is the greatest hitting prospect ever.

8. APNY Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:31 PM (#3242079)

Or at least since Adrian Beltre...

I assume the Yanks see him as a DH who can maybe also be the backup C. Can he play RF? His arm is apparently not the problem behind the plate.

9. DKDC Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:36 PM (#3242081)

Phil Hughes solid relief work is just what Joba Chamberlain needs

Phil has been solid in 1 and 2 inning stints, but a 4-inning reliever is just what Joba Chamberlain needs.

10. Rich Rifkin Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:51 PM (#3242086)

While this is obviously sarcasm -- "No pitcher with mid-90's heat, and a good curve, who failed to establish himself in the rotation by age-23 ever went on to do anything but pitch middle relief. -- it is still more likely than not that Hughes, who is now in his third season in the majors and has a career ERA+ of 91, will not be a great pitcher, as all the hype about him a few years ago suggested.

On b-ref I checked who Hughes's number one comp is: Kurt Ainsworth. I don't think any comp is all that telling at this point. But it's funny that it's Ainsworth, as he was another young pitcher who was overhyped and never amounted to anything.

Then again, Hughes could become Nolan Ryan. After 4 seasons in the majors, he was a mediocre pitcher (100 ERA+) with poor control. He went on to have a nice career, once the Mets traded him.

11. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 04, 2009 at 04:57 PM (#3242088)

But it's funny that it's Ainsworth, as he was another young pitcher who was overhyped and never amounted to anything.

Didn't Ainsworth blow out his arm?

12. Swedish Chef Posted: July 04, 2009 at 05:05 PM (#3242093)

On b-ref I checked who Hughes's number one comp is: Kurt Ainsworth.

If you compare Hughes up to now with the entire career of other pitchers, of course you're going to get early flame outs in the similarity list.

At least you could look at the similarity list through 22.

13. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 04, 2009 at 05:39 PM (#3242118)

But it's funny that it's Ainsworth, as he was another young pitcher who was overhyped and never amounted to anything.

Ainsworth was 22 when he got to the bigs, Hughes is 22 now. Ainsworth struck out 6.4 batters per nine and walked 4.6 per nine in his career. Hughes has struck out 7.4 per nine (8.8 this year) and walked 3.6. Hughes has been clearly better than Ainsworth and there's good reason to believe that Hughes is getting better. His numbers this year, other than his ERA+, which is probably too low because of NYS, are better than anything Ainsworth ever did in the Majors. It's a terrible comp.

14. Tripon Posted: July 04, 2009 at 05:52 PM (#3242132)

Still can't crack a rotation that features Chien-Ming Wang.

15. catomi01 Posted: July 04, 2009 at 06:26 PM (#3242172)

Still can't crack a rotation that features Chien-Ming Wang.

If Wang hadn't won 19 twice (and been on the way to a similar total last year) do you really think he would still be in the rotation over Hughes? or jose lima for that matter?

16. Tripon Posted: July 04, 2009 at 06:44 PM (#3242180)

If Wang hadn't won 19 twice (and been on the way to a similar total last year) do you really think he would still be in the rotation over Hughes? or jose lima for that matter?

That's the problem isn't it? The Yankees, for all of their wisdom decided that Wang's win total trumps Wang's performance this season. Of course Hughes isn't getting a fair shake with the Yankees, how can he when the Yankees try to salvage a guy with a 10 ERA?

17. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: July 04, 2009 at 06:48 PM (#3242182)

It's not like Wang "won" those games while pitching poorly (or at least while getting poor runs-allowed results). His ERAs were well above average, and he soaked up a lot of innings.

18. dingo powered war machine (CoB) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 06:50 PM (#3242185)

If Wang hadn't won 19 twice (and been on the way to a similar total last year) do you really think he would still be in the rotation over Hughes? or jose lima for that matter?

Depending on why Wang just left the game with the trainer in tow, he may not be for very long ...

19. dingo powered war machine (CoB) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 07:24 PM (#3242211)

"strained right shoulder" for CMW.

Phil Hughes, come on down!

20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 08:25 PM (#3242238)

"strained right shoulder" for CMW.

Phil Hughes, come on down!

I know I shouldn't be happy as a Yankee fan (you can never have too much pitching, blah, blah), but I am.

I want Hughes in the rotation, and I never want to see Wang start again. He seems to have lost some velocity on the sinker, and I just don't believe he has the stuff to compensate for that.

21. Justin 'The Cespedobear' T Posted: July 04, 2009 at 08:29 PM (#3242239)

His pulling today was timed such that he could leave the game with his ERA in single digits.

22. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: July 04, 2009 at 08:34 PM (#3242240)

I want Hughes in the rotation, and I never want to see Wang start again. He seems to have lost some velocity on the sinker, and I just don't believe he has the stuff to compensate for that.

I'm inclined to think that he could regain the velocity with a full winter to work on his legs. At this point, should he return this season, I'd like to see it in relief.

23. catomi01 Posted: July 04, 2009 at 08:48 PM (#3242252)

I'm inclined to think that he could regain the velocity with a full winter to work on his legs. At this point, should he return this season, I'd like to see it in relief.

I'd be satisfied if they simply don't panic if they have an extra inning game during his rehab stint, and decide that having him available in Long Relief is more important than getting healthy and effective...

24. dingo powered war machine (CoB) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 08:50 PM (#3242254)

I want Hughes in the rotation, and I never want to see Wang start again. He seems to have lost some velocity on the sinker, and I just don't believe he has the stuff to compensate for that.

After seeing how Girardi managed the rest of the game, I'm gonna make the guess that it's Aceves (or someone from AAA) starting in 5 days and not Hughes.

With Bruney struggling, the Philthys now seem to be teh 8th!!11!1!! inning guys.

25. JPWF13

Posted: July 04, 2009 at 08:54 PM (#3242256)

-- it is still more likely than not that Hughes, who is now in his third season in the majors and has a career ERA+ of 91, will not be a great pitcher, as all the hype about him a few years ago suggested.

It was always more likely than not
and it's more likely than not that Strasburg will not be a "great" pitcher either,

just to pile on with the Ainworth stuff, yes there is a superficial similarity in their raw MLB numbers but:
1: Ainsworth was never as highly regarded a prospect as Hughes.
2: The bulk of Ainsworth's career was in the minors- 31-28 3.75, 2.64 k/bb
3: The bulk of Hughes career to date has been in the minors too- 31-8 2.37, 4.59 k/bb (10.0 k/9)
4: As mentioned so far Hughes ks more batter and walks less in the majors than Ainsworth did.
5: Hughes' MLB ERA+ is 9 points better than Ainsworth

Hughes odds of becoming a good MLB pitcher has at every point of his career, including NOW, higher than at any point in Ainsworth's career.

26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 04, 2009 at 09:03 PM (#3242269)

I'm inclined to think that he could regain the velocity with a full winter to work on his legs. At this point, should he return this season, I'd like to see it in relief.

Agreed. I think Wang may be able to be a good starter again at some point. I just don't think that point is this year. Maybe in relief he could dial up the sinker enough to be effective.

27. Jimmy P Posted: July 04, 2009 at 11:01 PM (#3242319)

Didn't Ainsworth blow out his arm?

I believe he had a freak injury where his shoulder blade broke.

28. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 04, 2009 at 11:05 PM (#3242321)

Jesus Montero is the greatest hitting prospect ever.

Just checked his numbers again, he's up to .998 OPS. He's just ridiculous.

29. Dan Szymborski

Posted: July 04, 2009 at 11:22 PM (#3242325)

I believe he had a freak injury where his shoulder blade broke.

Yeah. And he was pitching with a broken shoulder blade for months. And he went on the disabled list after another months or so of pitching with a torn rotator cuff and a torn labrum and he retired in 2006.

It's definitely unfair to consider people as having "failed" because of circumstances they had little control over. After all, we wouldn't call Thurman Munson a failure of a father or Roberto Clemente a failure of a humanitarian.

30. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 04, 2009 at 11:38 PM (#3242327)

Just checked his numbers again, he's up to .998 OPS. He's just ridiculous.

More walks than K's in AA so far and more XBH than K's too, and the EL is a pitchers league and Trenton a strong pitchers park.

31. Melo's Love Handles (NJ) Posted: July 05, 2009 at 12:15 AM (#3242335)

Jesus is God.

32. SteveM. Posted: July 05, 2009 at 04:16 AM (#3242395)

Jesus is just alright by me.

33. Crispix Attacks Posted: July 05, 2009 at 04:27 AM (#3242400)

Does being a "pitchers park" affect the number of walks and K's?

34. Justin 'The Cespedobear' T Posted: July 05, 2009 at 04:54 AM (#3242414)

I think it depends on the kind of pitcher's park it is. Some places it's more about a bad batter's eye or something than it is fence location. Especially so in the minors I presume.

35. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 05, 2009 at 06:11 AM (#3242435)

Does being a "pitchers park" affect the number of walks and K's?

Just bad writing by me, although according to Dan's numbers Trenton does slightly decrease walks and increases K's quite a bit.

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Saturday, July 04, 2009

NY Daily News: Harper: Yankees Phil Hughes solid relief work is just what Joba Chamberlain needs

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