BBTF's Newsblog Discussion :: NY Times: Curry: Mirror, (Cracked) Mirror: Seeing Boston’s Youkilis as a Reflection of O’Neill (RR)

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Friday, October 05, 2007

NY Times: Curry: Mirror, (Cracked) Mirror: Seeing Boston’s Youkilis as a Reflection of O’Neill (RR)

Watching Kevin Youkilis play for the Red Sox is entertaining. See Youkilis grouse about a call. See Youkilis shout at a pitcher after being drilled. See Youkilis leap over the dugout fence to congratulate a teammate or pump his fist after sending a ball into the Green Monster seats.

As much as Yankees fans like to disparage Youkilis, he may remind them of one of their own. Watching Paul O’Neill play for the Yankees was captivating for some of the same reasons. Like Youkilis, O’Neill often showed more emotion in one game than some teammates showed in a season.

Mr. Rorschach recommends this article as a lie detector test for Red Sox and Yankee fans. Admit it, wouldn’t you love to have both of these guys on your team?

Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: October 05, 2007 at 01:47 PM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: red sox, yankees

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1. Best Regards, Larry M. Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:00 PM (#2561459)

I've said before -- O'Neill would get angry at himself for failing, Youkilis gets angry at others for making him fail.

2. Guapo Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:03 PM (#2561466)

Watching Kevin Youkilis play for the Red Sox is entertaining. See Youkilis grouse about a call. See Youkilis shout at a pitcher after being drilled.

That's entertainment?

3. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:11 PM (#2561482)

I've said before -- O'Neill would get angry at himself for failing, Youkilis gets angry at others for making him fail.

O'Neill only directed his jackassery at himself? thats not how i remember it.

as a Sox fan, Paul Oneill generated an irrational hatred from me. I despise him.

If Youks was on some other team, he would probably annoy me too.

4. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:12 PM (#2561484)

I've said before -- O'Neill would get angry at himself for failing, Youkilis gets angry at others for making him fail.

Come on, Larry...

5. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:13 PM (#2561486)

I've said before -- O'Neill would get angry at himself for failing, Youkilis gets angry at others for making him fail.

Hmm, I see it the other way around. Might have something to do with our rooting interests, maybe. :)

6. The Essex Snead Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:31 PM (#2561519)

See Youkilis shout at a pitcher after being drilled.

Given how many times he got hit this year, I can't say I blame him.

7. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:44 PM (#2561547)

As far as I can tell, both Paulie and Youk are classic redasses, and productive redasses, not the "scrappy" kind with .500 OPS's. What's not to like about either of them?

8. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2007 at 03:50 PM (#2561560)

hey i'm a .250 hitter, but oh now i'm traded to the yankees so i'll try a little harder and all of a sudden hit .300+ for 6 straight years.

9. scareduck Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:04 PM (#2561588)

Mr. Rorschach recommends this article as a lie detector test for Red Sox and Yankee fans.

I always preferred Dr. Manhattan.

10. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:05 PM (#2561589)

Given how many times he got hit this year, I can't say I blame him.

Youkilis was HBP 15 times, not even top 5 in the league:

Hit By Pitch
DeJesus-KCR 23
Rodriguez-NYY 21
Garko-CLE 20
Guillen-SEA 19
Sizemore-CLE 17

11. aleskel

Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:07 PM (#2561593)

DeJesus-KCR 23

damn, has DeJesus been sleeping around with other players' wives or something?

12. Big Train Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:11 PM (#2561599)

hey i'm a .250 hitter, but oh now i'm traded to the yankees so i'll try a little harder and all of a sudden hit .300+ for 6 straight years.

you really think he wasn't trying hard enough? Could it have been a change in approach?

13. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:17 PM (#2561609)

hey i'm a .250 hitter, but oh now i'm traded to the yankees so i'll try a little harder and all of a sudden hit .300+ for 6 straight years.

you really think he wasn't trying hard enough? Could it have been a change in approach?

Obviously it was a plot on O'Neill's part to be sent to the Promised Land.

14. JC in DC Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2561612)

Paul O'Neill's last season in baseball was better (by OPS+) than some of his seasons in Cincinnati, including his age 27 season. Did Stick trade for him? ####### genius: Roberto Kelly for O'Neill.

15. Big Train Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:21 PM (#2561613)

Did Stick trade for him? ####### genius: Roberto Kelly for O'Neill.

Yes, O'Neill credits Mattingly for trying to get him to go to LF more.

16. aleskel

Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:26 PM (#2561622)

I think Paulie was also expected to hit for power when he was with the Reds, and Stick/Mattingly/Showalter (maybe) convinced him to stop swinging for the fences so much.

17. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:27 PM (#2561624)

you really think he wasn't trying hard enough? Could it have been a change in approach?

well i said my hatred for him was irrational

18. RobertMachemer Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:28 PM (#2561625)

Youkilis was HBP 15 times, not even top 5 in the league

This is correct. Youkilis was 6th. 16 HBPs would have been good enough for 2nd in 2006, 5th in 2005, 2nd in 2004, 6th in 2003, and 3rd in 2002. Is it fair to say that it's still an above-average number of HBPs?

19. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: October 05, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2561630)

Yes, O'Neill credits Mattingly for trying to get him to go to LF more.

First time I ever saw O'Neill was in Candlestick in 1988. I'd never even heard of him, but I looked up during BP and here was this guy hitting one ball after another into almost the same spot over the RF fence, and with one of the sweetest swings I ever saw. I made a prediction right then and there (notice my love of reasonably large sample sizes) that I'd be seeing him in many an All-Star game. And I was right, I guess, though he sure took awhile to get around to it.

20. Traderdave

Posted: October 05, 2007 at 05:21 PM (#2561729)

21. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 05, 2007 at 05:34 PM (#2561754)

I saw alot of O'neill in Cincy and he always seemed tentative and lacking confidence. Plus he was constantly pouting. The sourpuss didn't go away when he went to NY, it got much worse actually, but I always wondered what teh Yanks did to build up his confidence. That seemed to me the biggest change in him.

Didn't the reds jerk him around a lot? He didn't get a chance to play fulltime until he was 25 I think.

Nick Markakis reminds me a lot of Paul O'Neill with the Yankees: LH corner OF who's good at almost everything but not great at anything. Good defense but not CF level, good baserunning but not fast enough to steal more than 20-25, good power but will never win a HR title, good control of the strike zone but not outstanding, .300 hitter, etc. except of course Markakis has had a much earlier start. If O'Neill had started a couple years earlier and had 5-6 seasons in Cincy that were comparable to his Yankees' seasons, he'd be a borderline HOFer.

22. Derek J Posted: October 05, 2007 at 06:11 PM (#2561813)

I saw alot of O'neill in Cincy and he always seemed tentative and lacking confidence. Plus he was constantly pouting. The sourpuss didn't go away when he went to NY, it got much worse actually, but I always wondered what teh Yanks did to build up his confidence. That seemed to me the biggest change in him.

Wasn't 90% of this getting him away from Lou Piniella? I seem to remember Piniella running him down in the press all the time--but I can't recall if this was one of those patented Sweet Lou "you're so much like me" love/hate relationships, or if it was just a hate/hate relationship. The most memorable time that O'Neill really went crazy on an opposing player (as opposed to himself or umpires) was when Piniella ordered one of the M's pitchers to buzz him in the mid-90s.

One big difference between O'Neill and Youkilis, by the way, is their hit-by-pitch levels. Everyone talks about how O'Neill was hated for being such a crybaby, but he was hit by fewer pitches in his entire career (22) than Youkilis has in the past two years (24, he has 30 for his career). I'd think that if you're the type of hitter that crowds the plate and gets hit a lot, that might be incompatible with the O'Neill-style freakouts. Couldn't the Sox have Don Baylor sit Youkilis down and teach him a thing or two about taking his HBP stoically?

23. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: October 05, 2007 at 06:25 PM (#2561835)

Couldn't the Sox have Don Baylor sit Youkilis down and teach him a thing or two about taking his HBP stoically?

Aren't they mostly talking about when Joba threw at him twice, and then Wang hit him? Maybe he flips out other times when he's HBP, I'm not sure, but it seems like it was more the history and perceived intent behind the pitches that got Youkilis riled up.

24. Sox Machine Posted: October 05, 2007 at 06:35 PM (#2561848)

That's entertainment?

A called third strike, and a grumble by Youks
Like Paul O'Neill, 'cept he's not in the YES booth
Spit splatters ump with the cries of the Greek God
But he's still out -- a kick in the balls
I say that's entertainment

25. J. Michael Neal Posted: October 05, 2007 at 07:23 PM (#2561917)

Huh. I remember Paul O'Neill's years with the Reds as being better than they really were. He was one of the mainstays of my back-to-back champion Pursue the Pennant team. Of course, that team had a lot of mainstays; I'd assembled a juggernaut. Of course, I was also smart enough to platoon him.

26. Darren

Posted: October 06, 2007 at 02:07 PM (#2563997)

I don't agree with Larry at all. Most of Youkilis's anger is directed at himself, with a small portion for umps. I don't think he's ever even been ejected.

And as for the comparisons to O'Neil, I think O'Neil was a LOT more demonstrative. Youk hasn't even broken anything yet.

27. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 06, 2007 at 02:22 PM (#2564007)

I've basically never seen Youk get on an opposing player. The only exception I remember is when Joba Chamberlain decided that he had to show he was a tough guy, and if he killed another person in the process, he didn't care.

Other than that, all Youks does is yell at himself, after strikeouts, after groundouts, after bad swings, after taking good pitches, after basically any of the million things that ballplayers fail at every day. I don't know how someone could survive psychologically when he takes that kind of beating from himself, but Youks seems to get through alright. And he doesn't go for the histrionics, knocking over water coolers or throwing bat - he just berates himself. It is sort of odd to watch.

28. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 06, 2007 at 02:51 PM (#2564022)

As a Pirate fan, I don't really have a dog in this fight, and I have tosay that from an external standpoint O'Neill was at least ten to twenty times as irritating to watch as Youkilis is.

29. TVerik Posted: October 06, 2007 at 02:57 PM (#2564026)

O'Neill had a lot of years, and his Yankees were generally good, and on TV a lot across the land. Give Youks ten more years of acting this way, including good and bad times for him and for his team. Then judge him on an "O'Neill annoyance gauge".

30. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 06, 2007 at 03:04 PM (#2564031)

And he doesn't go for the histrionics, knocking over water coolers or throwing bat - he just berates himself. It is sort of odd to watch.

To be clear, he also whines. It can be hard to distinguish the whining from the self-abuse, but they're both constitutive parts of the Youkilis experience.

Yelling at other players isn't part of his game, and it wasn't part of O'Neill's. O'Neill went in for showy dugout histrionics that Youks just about never does.

31. Darren

Posted: October 06, 2007 at 03:15 PM (#2564040)

I think it's very important to point out that Youkilis looks very funny when he runs. Between him and Pedroia, they have two guys who are very slow and look incredibly goofy on the bases (and they're on the bases a lot).

32. Derek J Posted: October 06, 2007 at 03:21 PM (#2564045)

Aren't they mostly talking about when Joba threw at him twice, and then Wang hit him? Maybe he flips out other times when he's HBP, I'm not sure, but it seems like it was more the history and perceived intent behind the pitches that got Youkilis riled up.

If all of this were about an isolated incident, you wouldn't need both of the Sox mouthpiece papers (the Globe and the New York Times) doing pieces about how he's just like Paul O'Neill, less than a month apart.

33. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 06, 2007 at 03:24 PM (#2564049)

But Paul O'Neill never flipped out at opposing players, did he? I remember lots of whining and lots of throwing #### around in the dugout. Being like Paul O'Neill doesn't include flipping out at other players.

And calling the NYTimes a "Sox mouthpiece" is not going to do wonders for your credibility on this issue, regardless.

EDIT: Also, see post #1. Larry's point, which set off half the thread, was that Youkilis was different from O'Neill because he took his frustration out on other players. This is incorrect, but at least he remembers what O'Neill was like correctly. You got them both wrong.

34. Derek J Posted: October 06, 2007 at 03:50 PM (#2564068)

But Paul O'Neill never flipped out at opposing players, did he? I remember lots of whining and lots of throwing #### around in the dugout. Being like Paul O'Neill doesn't include flipping out at other players.

And calling the NYTimes a "Sox mouthpiece" is not going to do wonders for your credibility on this issue, regardless.

Unlike your histrionic "and if he killed another person in the process, he didn't care" comment above :)

The attempts to connect Youkilis and O'Neill, particularly originating from Youkilis himself, are a bit desperate. You'd think that the Red Sox never had any good, whiny players of their own to compare him to...like Wade Boggs. Boggs looks like him, had a similar, odd running style, and was whiny in the same way that Youkilis is (as opposed to O'Neill, who--as pointed out--was more a furniture-breaking, helmet-throwing kind of whiny).

35. Answer Guy Posted: October 06, 2007 at 03:53 PM (#2564071)

The attempts to connect Youkilis and O'Neill, particularly originating from Youkilis himself, are a bit desperate. You'd think that the Red Sox never had any good, whiny players of their own to compare him to...like Wade Boggs. Boggs looks like him, had a similar, odd running style, and was whiny in the same way that Youkilis is (as opposed to O'Neill, who--as pointed out--was more a furniture-breaking, helmet-throwing kind of whiny).

Except that I think that Youks would look like more of an egomaniac comparing himself to an all-time great like Boggs than he would to a player closer to his own level like O'Neill.

36. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

Posted: October 06, 2007 at 04:18 PM (#2564086)

Not being either a Sox or Yanks fan, I can say that (1) there's a definite similarity, and (2) they're both easy to hate. It's easy to hate talented players who are very passionate about beating your favorite team.

37. Derek J Posted: October 06, 2007 at 05:00 PM (#2564106)

EDIT: Also, see post #1. Larry's point, which set off half the thread, was that Youkilis was different from O'Neill because he took his frustration out on other players. This is incorrect, but at least he remembers what O'Neill was like correctly. You got them both wrong.

By and large O'Neill didn't take his frustrations out on opposing players or managers, but it happened on occasion, particularly with teams helmed by Lou Piniella. In the 1996 situation I was talking about, O'Neill did go crazy on John Marzano (and with good reason). Get your facts straight before claiming that someone else doesn't know what they're talking about.

38. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 06, 2007 at 05:15 PM (#2564113)

Your point above was that these weren't "isolated incidents" for either Youkilis or O'Neill. I guess you could argue that as long as it happened a couple times in a over a decade, technically they weren't "isolated", but I really don't think that was your point in #32.

Larry claimed that Youkilis regularly takes his frustration out on opposing players, which is wrong. You made the argument that if the time Youkilis got mad at Joba wasn't isolated, why was he compared to O'Neill? This presupposes that both O'Neill and Youkilis regularly flip out at opposing players, which Larry had already denied was the case in regard to O'Neill, and which has not be shown with Youkilis to any degree.

---

I know I was a dick in #33, and that wasn't right or necessary, and I'm sorry.

39. Lassus Posted: October 06, 2007 at 05:17 PM (#2564115)

I pretty much find (and found, respectively) each of these players unwatchable. Yay baseball!

40. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: October 06, 2007 at 05:23 PM (#2564117)

It can be hard to distinguish the whining from the self-abuse

I take it your dates in high school didn't go real well.

Best Regards

John

41. robinred

Posted: October 06, 2007 at 05:31 PM (#2564120)

As far as I can tell, both Paulie and Youk are classic redasses, and productive redasses, not the "scrappy" kind with .500 OPS's. What's not to like about either of them?

I may get slammed for this, but I think the Yankees could use a redass among their top players. Any successful group endeavor generally has a mix of personalities; right now, with Torre/ARod/Jeter/Rivera/Posada at the center of the team, you have all relatively introspective, undemonstraive guys. I noticed this during the ALCS in 2004--somebody should've thrown a bat or something.

Don't get me wrong--the Yankees lose postseason games for specific, tangible reasons--a redass would not improve the SPs or Jeter's range--but I think a demonstrative guy at the core of the roster to balance out the others would help.

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NY Times: Curry: Mirror, (Cracked) Mirror: Seeing Boston’s Youkilis as a Reflection of O’Neill (RR)

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