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I'm surprised by this thread. I expected Ray to make the "Yawn" comment, not Dayn.
That sucks. Let's hope Griffey, Thomas, Thome, and Bagwell never appear on any lists.
So you would be okay if Derek Jeter is on this list.
I think he might be slightly biased.
Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes.
Also, which is harder to believe -- the number of names that have been leaked from that list or the number of names that haven't been leaked?
He also had that problem with gigantism...
The NYTimes has the complete list, and will slowly release them as it suits their corporate interests. The bit@h book drove the ARod report, not sure what is driving this one.
Well, he was post 8, so it didn't give me much time.
That said, I do believe he needed my permission before making the comment.
If Sosa is the second name they released, maybe the names aren't so big
Is this a worst-case or best-case scenario?
If I suspected on I was on that list, I would want the names to all come out now, not one at a time every 3 months. That would be torture, I think.
His physique did change -- he's noticeably heavier than he was 20 years ago. (As is normal and meaningless, but to claim his physique didn't change is rather odd.)
What about his career path would tend to exonerate him, given the all-encompassing standards the steroid zealots use? He had the home run records - just like McGwire. He was frequently injured - just like McGwire. He played until he was 40 - just like Palmeiro.
Best case for sure. Then hopefully people will finally stop being outraged and just vote for the best players.
Honus Wagner tops my list. No way the Flying Dutchman messed around with that stuff.
Are you trying to put Mariotti, Plaschke, Armstrong, etc out of a job? How could they cover baseball, esp the HOF voting/induction, without grandstanding and preaching to everyone. Who would ESPN have left for ATH?
I'm sorry, but where's the evidence? Vague statements by anonymous lawyers who willingly violate court orders? Why would you be so naive and gullible as to trust that people who are so ethically bankrupt that they violate court orders are not lying?
Quoting now from the story:
These trusted "sources" don't even know what he tested positive for.
I guess so.
I hope the next name is Jeter, oh how I hope, if only to see how the NYC mediots who fawn over him react.
Charming...
I'm sure we'll find out in a day or two, when Sosa holds his press conference to respond to the accusation.
Cal Ripken's 2,131st game says hi.
His interpreter is booked through the end of the week, so it'll have to wait until Monday.
Clem McDouglenut was a hell of a ballplayer, but he was hooked on greenies. he cheated too
Wouldn't these "anonymous lawyers" need to substantiate their claim to the NYT? Or would they simply trust a lawyer with knowledge of the case?
Right. And any fair-minded person would at least give Sosa a chance to respond -- and would carefully consider Sosa's response -- before deciding what to make of the accusation.
Unfortunately, many so-called adults are too childish to do this.
C'mon man. We need the moral indignation factor, otherwise steroids and amphetamines become the same thing. And there'd be no fun in that.
But this way, you get so many more news stories. Although I see at least ESPN isn't making nearly as big a deal over this as A-Rod.
I never understood the vitriol for Sosa (other than from Sox fans, they hate everyone)
At some point, everyone would stop caring right? If names keep trickling out, and you get to the 20th leak, it's gonna be a great big who ####### cares.
Anger at the Sox for getting Sosa hooked on steroids before foisting him onto the Cubs?
As I said when the A-Rod news leaked, though - jeez, these are sealed court records. This is kinda disgraceful that so many officers of the court don't seem to take those kinds of oaths seriously.
For all the complaining about the media around here, you guys show very little knowledge of how they work, or even of basic logic.
Why would the New York Times care how many books Selena Roberts sells? Why would they orchestrate their coverage to benefit her?
If they had the complete list, why wouldn't they release it now? If they knew Sosa was on the list three months ago, why would they wait to put his name out? So that ESPN could have a chance to break the story first?
What "corporate interests" are served by slowly releasing a trickle of names? When they announce on September 6th that Benny Agbayani was on the list, is that going to sell a half-million newspapers?
I've got no vitriol for him. Sure, disappointment in hindsight, sheepish naivete for holding hope on the "he's never been a list" front, whatever...
But you know what?
1998 was a hell of a lot of fun. Easily the second favorite season of my baseball life (1984 will forever hold the top spot... at least until... you know...).
I'm not going get my memory erased or otherwise believe that all the enjoyment I got from 1998 was somehow hollow or wrong. I've got better things to do that relegate cherished memories to some sort of "I'm so sorry I enjoyed it" dustbin.
Fortunately, many people have enough outrage to cover 3 or 4 other fans -- so mine will not be missed.
Wait. So are they lying or are they violating court orders by releasing his name? It can't be both.
Isn't this circular logic? They're ethically bankrupt for violating court orders, so they could be lying. But what are they violating if they're lying?
To believe them, you'd have to necessarily believe that they'd willingly violate a court order.
Once you believe that they are willing to violate a court order, how can you trust that they're truthful people who wouldn't simply be lying about the subject matter at hand?
To believe them, you'd have to necessarily believe that they'd willingly violate a court order.
Once you believe that they are willing to violate a court order, how can you trust that they're truthful people who wouldn't simply be lying about the subject matter at hand?
How is violating a court order lying?
Not Jason Tyner?
Not Jason Tyner?
Rick Helling?
I would like to urinate into Rick Reilly's cap, then force him to wear it!
People who violate court orders do so for all sorts of reasons.
But there is an amusing logical conundrum you have ducked with this particular example.
If the lawyer reveals that Sosa was on the list (and Sosa is in fact on the list), then he has violated a court order, but told the truth to the NYT.
If the lawyer falsely claims that Sosa is on the list (and Sosa is not actually on the list), then he has lied to the NYT- but has not actually violated the court order, because he has not divulged any information that was actually sealed by court order...
either way the lawyer should be facing professional sanction imho.
It is not, but arguably reflects on their character.
Who is this guy? Sosa's brother, lover, whatever? Every time somebody suggests that Sosa is a suspected steroid user he calls the poster an idiot. Now it appears as if the story is incorrect and Sosa continues to be falsely accused. OK. I guess Sosa can go and sit over beside Clemens another poor guy who has been falsely accused.
I would bet almost anything that it's Barry Bonds and his lawyers that are leaking these names.
Since he's probably not making the Hall of Fame, he's going to sneakily take down everyone else with him too.
IOW I work for the wrong firm.
It would take just one person with access to the list to unilaterally decide that releasing it would be the "right" thing to do. They may be like Kevin and passionately believe that for the good of society that the players should all be outed.
OTOH it may be one lawyer who selectively releases names just to take the focus off a specific client...
Is the part of the thread where we ask for Lazzeri to give us 2000 bucks?
Or as a defense tactic - claiming selective prosecution can be a valid defense to criminal charges-
no charges against Palmeiro? Sosa? Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, why is my client being singled out?
Or poisoning the jury pool, if prospective jurors believe everyone was juicing, they'd be more sympathetic to Barry.
You're correct. A successful book by a former Times writer doesn't help the Times brand at all.
What "corporate interests" are served by slowly releasing a trickle of names?
You're correct. One big day's worth of paper sales and web hits is more valuable than a few big days sales and web hits.
And if he's not named, the Jeter-haters will have to invent another reason to avoid the reality that he's an obvious 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
As a matter of fact, yes, I do honestly believe it. Him and/or his lawyers.
Um, who "avoids" that? The only question is whether or not he gets 100% of the vote.
If you're talking about the credit crisis and financial meltdown, the answer's "Yes." I don't think he's behind Ben and Jerry's scrumptious Dave Matthews Band® Magic Brownies™ Encore Edition, however.
The fact that there is now *something* linking him to steroids doesn't retroactively make those posts okay.
Which doesn't prove that they always lie.
David Wright did steroids.
Now that he's been accused, it's okay to include him with accused steroid users.
Known by who? That is the first time I have ever heard that. Of course, it is so dumb, I could believe Berman came up with it.
She works for the competition now. The competition ran an excerpt from her book.
One big day's worth of paper sales and web hits is more valuable than seeing ESPN get a bunch of Web hits for releasing the information you've been sitting on for months.
And releasing the ever-less-impressive names of steroid users is going to lead to rapidly diminishing returns. I don't know how easy it is to check the Times' Web hits or daily sales, but I bet there won't be any noticeable positive movement from this Sosa thing, much less when they release the name of Steve Finley in August.
Now that he's been accused, it's okay to include him with accused steroid users.
That's it. I'm calling up Wright, and if he doesn't return my call, it must mean that he's guilty. What a pig!
You're not getting rid of Gary Matthews Jr. that easily.
It's like the aliens who manipulated the universe so that pi would spell out a coded message.
Also, Carlos Ruiz of the Phillies.
And Eric Brynes of the D'backs.
I'm on an accusing spree!
Right. And any fair-minded person would at least give Sosa a chance to respond -- and would carefully consider Sosa's response -- before deciding what to make of the accusation.
I completely agree. Let him respond and then react to that. Is that to much to ask when a man's reputation is at stake? And from my strictly biased perspective, it might be nice to know what exactly was the PED in question.
And, I'll accuse, I don't know, Hal Morris just because.
Ain't that the truth.
What proportion of pundits have expressed their righteous indignation over the sorry spectacle of professional athletes engaging in "cheating" in an attempt to improve their performance, as compared to those expressing their righteous indignation over the sorry spectacle of officers of the court violating their sworn duty? Where are the investigative pieces getting to the bottom of the latter story?
It's just too bad Kevin won't be around here when their names inevitably leak out.
I don't know... they've become pretty boilerplate.
1. "Uh-oh... not this ####" comments? check.
2. I hope (usually Derek Jeter) is next... heh heh he... check.
3. Jason Tyner! check.
4. Toldja so. check.
5. Please make it stop. check.
6. Devolution into legalese of case particulars.... half-check (almost got there, but never quite crossed the threshold. Still, it's only page 1)
What am I missing?
If we wanted to make it entertaining, we should have a rule that posts in the thread must be anagrams or something.
Uh, he was caught cheating. Remember the "one time" he used a corked bat?
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