#37 - please tell me you are not completely serious with that post.

He is, and he has a valid point. While violating a court order is not lying, it is for a lawyer unscrupulous, and makes questionable the claim that the person can be trusted. As an example, if you find out the cook at your favorite restaurant doesn't wash his hands after he wipes his ass, would you trust him for anything? Would you trust him less than you did before you knew that?

It doesn't mean the person is lying about something, anything, or everything. It just means it's hard to ascribe to them a sufficient level of integrity.

He is, and he has a valid point. While violating a court order is not lying, it is for a lawyer unscrupulous, and makes questionable the claim that the person can be trusted. As an example, if you find out the cook at your favorite restaurant doesn't wash his hands after he wipes his ass, would you trust him for anything? Would you trust him less than you did before you knew that?

Why stop at the ass? Why not just have him take his baths in feces?

From just a fan's pespective Sammy Sosa was a wild ride.

After a few years in Chicago the fans were exasperated because while Sosa hit home runs, he struck out at a ferocious pace, he ran the bases like the squirrel in "Over The Hedge" and played defense in an out of control fashion leading to many a group scurry around the bases by the opposition.

And then, "SHAZAM!" He was a demi-god. Men hollered their praise and women swooned as he ran to and from his position. He was beloved.

And then he wasn't.

Poof. It was if everyone woke up and decided the guy really was a bum after all.

I completely agree.

Talk about an unnecessary opening to a sentence!
Andy agreeing with Ray is a given.

When is a federal judge or a U.S. Attorney going to ask the FBI to investigate the source of these leaks?

When is a federal judge or a U.S. Attorney going to ask the FBI to investigate the source of these leaks?

That's what I want to know.

#106 -- I like your earlier suggestion of forming a group within the White House, the plumbers, to stop those leaks.

Literally no one would shock me. Not Griffey, not Jeter.

What about Don Zimmer? 2003 Don Zimmer, I mean.

Roger Maris is looking like a king today. A KING.

106 and 108 rule.

Dumb question: is this kind of leak very uncommon?

I'd like to see some owners caught juicing. That Carl Pohlad? Obvious person who took performing enhancers in order to live as long as he did.

The real outrage here, as it was with A-Rod, is not who's on the list but who's doing the leaking, a story that for obvious reasons The New York Times will not be writing.

Ain't that the truth.

I would say no, that isn't the truth at all.

I want to no the truth. Deep Throat was forced to leak the truth of Watergate because the system was set up to protect law breakers. Same thing in this situation. Hiding the truth is the real outrage.

Deep Throat was forced to leak the truth of Watergate because the system was set up to protect law breakers. Same thing in this situation.

Yes, these situations are quite equivalent. Got it.

Hiding the truth is the real outrage.

Here, here. Police should be allowed to search every home, vehicle, and person in order to find the hidden truth. How dare they let drug users hide behind laws.

Here, here. Police should be allowed to search every home, vehicle, and person in order to find the hidden truth. How dare we let drug users hide behind laws.

Our legal system is not a death pact. Whose side are you on, anyways?

I'm at a lost on how to respond.

Such equivocation only emboldens the enemies of our freedom.

Are both sides being sarcastic at once there?
:)

I don't know how easy it is to check the Times' Web hits or daily sales, but I bet there won't be any noticeable positive movement from this Sosa thing

Then I don't have any idea why they even bother reporting the news.

I can't ####### WAIT until Ripken, Griffey, or Randy Johnson tests positive.

Not for the shock value, mainly just to see how people react.

How could Ripken test positive for a test he never took?

Tommy Lasorda refuses to take a test that doesn't have a hot dog attached.

When I woke up today, I found that the garbage cans in front of my house had been knocked over. It could have been raccoons, or the wind, but I honestly believe it was Barry Bonds and/or his lawyers.

How could Ripken test positive for a test he never took?

Oh, right, everything leaking right now is from one test? Forgot about that.

he ran the bases like the squirrel in "Over The Hedge"

Harvey's... you are the absolute best.

Oh, right, everything leaking right now is from one test? Forgot about that.

Yes, and Ripken never took any test. At least, not any test MLB was involved in.

Three guys feeling really good right now:

Rick Reilly
Kevin
George W. Bush

Speaking of Rick Reilly. One of his focuses for a steroid article, Mitch Jones was just called up by the Dodgers today. Jason Schidmt was put on the 60 day DL to make room on the 40 man roster.

more leaks ... ?

Yes, there are more leaks; however, this is more newsworthy than most cases. Moreover, the information appears to be more widely known than in most sealed cases (I base this on the reporting only.)

EDIT: Ellerman apparently leaked while being on a coke binge

... make a buck

I don't think there are any dollar bucks to be had. I doubt people are getting paid for the leaks. Also, most lawyers try to avoid investigative journalists. You may end up having a client get under their microscope. If you want the press to get a matter, you usually stand out of the way. I just presume that enough people have it, that there are bound to be relationships.

RE: Indignation over leaks

Troy Ellerman got 2.5 years for leaking grand jury testimony. That is more than his clients got for masterminding the bay area connection. How much more indignation do you want?

What about Don Zimmer? 2003 Don Zimmer, I mean.

Once a roider, always a roider. Zim's 1953-54 seasons look suspicious.

I agree that it's highly doubtful that money is involved. Then why leak? There are as many reasons as there are dumbass lawyers. As was mentioned early on, I could see someone from the Bonds/player side thinking that having evidence of others out there—especially someone like Sosa, who may have perjured himself—would be a good thing, as selective prosecution is a defense to many criminal charges, albeit not the strongest one. At the same time I could see the government thinking that more evidence of steroid users would make the case against Bonds seem all the more critical or compelling or something (and I find it curious that the A-Rod and Sosa leaks corresponded with times when the prosecution had matters recently before the court).

Or it could be something else altogther. Some lawyers are simply attention whores who like talking to reporters and get off on leaking things to them. There are any number of other explanations.

Ultimately I think the list should be destroyed because of the expectations of the people who subjected themselves to the drug tests that form its foundation. By allowing this leaking party to continue, it’s sending the message to anyone that you should avoid subjecting yourself to employer drug tests at all costs.

Then again, the libertarian in me thinks maybe that’s a good idea . . .

... list be destroyed.

That list is like the Bible. Burn it all you want, enough people have seen it that its living on. Of course, it would give Ray more posting material about why you shouldn't believe the officers of the court and believe the felons instead.

It was always okay to include him with "accused" steroid users, because he *had* been accused. The "irate" posts were in response to people calling him a "presumed" steroid user, because until today there *was* nothing linking him to steroids, other than his hitting a lot of home runs in an era when other presumed steroid users hit home runs.

The fact that there is now *something* linking him to steroids doesn't retroactively make those posts okay.

I've always objected to Sosa being lumped in with Bonds and McGwire, for precisely this reason. If this turns out to be true, I'll be very disappointed, and honestly somewhat surprised. Surprised because it took so long to come out. But it coming out now doesn't make the old posts acceptable. In the same way that it's not acceptable to accuse Ibanez of juicing.

That list is like the Bible. Burn it all you want, enough people have seen it that its living on. Of course, it would give Ray more posting material about why you shouldn't believe the officers of the court

You mean the dignified "officers of the court" who are supposedly leaking material that is under seal?

and believe the felons instead.

What felons?

I could see someone from the Bonds/player side thinking that having evidence of others out there—especially someone like Sosa, who may have perjured himself—would be a good thing, as selective prosecution is a defense to many criminal charges, albeit not the strongest one.

Could the Feds solve the "selective prosecution" problem by indicting Sosa now for lying to Congress, or has the statute of limitations expired on that?

I'm sure we'll find out in a day or two, when Sosa holds his press conference to respond to the accusation.

Right. And any fair-minded person would at least give Sosa a chance to respond -- and would carefully consider Sosa's response -- before deciding what to make of the accusation.

I completely agree. Let him respond and then react to that. Is that to much to ask when a man's reputation is at stake? And from my strictly biased perspective, it might be nice to know what exactly was the PED in question.

Talk about an unnecessary opening to a sentence!
Andy agreeing with Ray is a given.

Greg, that's either the most bizarre or the most deadpan, tongue-in-cheek sentence I can ever remember reading on BTF. Or maybe it's possible that you've missed the last 500 steroids or political threads. Just out of curiosity, which is it?

Yes, and Ripken never took any test. At least, not any test MLB was involved in.

So really, we have no proof that Cal Ripken didn't use steroids.

He's a witch! Burn him!

Of course, it would give Ray more posting material about why you shouldn't believe the officers of the court and believe the felons instead.

Are those "officers of the court" not felons themselves?

Greg, that's either the most bizarre or the most deadpan, tongue-in-cheek sentence I can ever remember reading on BTF. Or maybe it's possible that you've missed the last 500 steroids or political threads. Just out of curiosity, which is it?

I was going for run of the mill sarcasm, but I appreciate your compliment.

RE: Lying to Congress

Waxman's assistant has said no comment for the moment. I imagine Congress would investigate. Sosa's statement left open the possibility that he took a drug legal in the Dominican but illegal in the United States.

I got the sarcasm, Greg. Andy needs to get with the program.

Such equivocation only emboldens the enemies of our freedom.

i feel embiggened!

Or as a defense tactic - claiming selective prosecution can be a valid defense to criminal charges-
no charges against Palmeiro? Sosa? Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, why is my client being singled out?

No, selective prosecution is not really a defense to criminal charges, and "why is my client being singled out" isn't even a proper argument. At best, it's an argument for jury nullification.

Waxman's assistant has said no comment for the moment. I imagine Congress would investigate. Sosa's statement left open the possibility that he took a drug legal in the Dominican but illegal in the United States.

Or that the leak is false, or that the test was wrong, or that he took a tainted supplement. There is no chance of getting a perjury conviction based on these facts we have now. They had a much stronger case against Palmeiro -- a real failed test, with all the testing protocols in place to avoid error -- and admitted they couldn't possibly convict based on what they had.

Yeah, I can see the Dominican Republic extraditing him for this.

Maybe they can grab him when he comes to Cooperstown for his induction? Or will the statute of limitations have run?

When I woke up today, I found that the garbage cans in front of my house had been knocked over. It could have been raccoons, or the wind, but I honestly believe it was Barry Bonds and/or his lawyers.

Acually it was the neighborhood kids looking for your collection of 70's porn that your partner made you dipose of...

Can we at least give this a day? Or does no one remember the Pujols is on the list reports?

Roger Maris is looking like a king today. A KING.

Maris is still the only player that doesn't fit in the +60 HR list.

Maris = J Burnitz give or take a little

*This thread appears to have enough rage for 500 posts

Al Leiter just in the MLB Net studios, about 1 hr ago, the baseball ball feels harder, so says his MLB friends still playing.

"In the absence of all the facts, I 'm going to vote for Sammy Sosa for the HOF." Tim Kurkjian. Submitted for your amusement.

"65 to 70% of all-time single season home-run records are fake now. It's about as fake as wrestling - that whole 20 year period. I don't think and I don't hope Sosa will make the HOF." Rick Reilly

Two opinions of mine. And only opinions, nothing more. Neither probably all that popular.

I doubt steroids accounted for more that a 2-3% increase in anybody's stats at best.

I haven't been shown anything that proves a corked bat improves bat speed enough to account for more than a 1% increase in distance. I've tried one once. I might as well have used a 1 ounce lighter bat, uncorked.

The thing about the New York Times making money by slowly leaking these names is fantastically hilarious. Not only is that story not even on the front page anymore, it's not even the top sports story. It was also Sports Illustrated that reported the A-Rod thing, and the very idea of the NYT trying to save their crumbling empire by starting to focus on the sports section is immensely laughable. Their bread and butter is politics and foreign reporting. Hard news. They're not about to start shaping their business model around steroid leaks.

I'm not surprised Sammy is on the list, if indeed it turns out he is. But I wonder how many positives on that list were from actual, intentional users of illegal steroids, and how many were from guys who were using perfectly legal GNC supplments that are banned from most sports as being performance enhancing.

And then, "SHAZAM!" He was a demi-god. Men hollered their praise and women swooned as he ran to and from his position. He was beloved.

And then he wasn't.

Poof. It was if everyone woke up and decided the guy really was a bum after all.

I wonder if some of the corked bat reaction wasn't a kind of steroid surrogate. Who else has had that kind of a stain on his reputation from a corked bat? It's as though people suspected he was on steroids but couldn't prove it. Then the corked bat appeared and suddenly they were free to see him as the bad guy. He seemed to go from David Ortiz to Albert Belle in about two weeks.

a story that for obvious reasons The New York Times will not be writing.

A lawyer familiar with the case said that Clem McDonought IV has been releasing names from the 2003 test list. The source asked for anonymity because he works with a bunch of vengeful weasels.

Disbarment, anyone?

Lawyers policing lawyers anyone?

(and I find it curious that the A-Rod and Sosa leaks corresponded with times when the prosecution had matters recently before the court).

In the last 7 years, when has Bonds not had matters before the court?

I wonder how many positives on that list were from actual, intentional users of illegal steroids, and how many were from guys who were using perfectly legal GNC supplments that are banned from most sports as being performance enhancing.

Good question I thought about that earlier.

Also, did they also test for greenies? That's a performance enhancing drug no one seems to give a #### about. So if Sammy tested positive for that I wonder what the reaction will be.

Also, did they also test for greenies?

If I remember correctly, they specifically did not test for speed in the original round of tests. It was part of the fight the Union won. Fehr and company gave in on the meth issue, after Congress had their publicity stunt.

Who else has had that kind of a stain on his reputation from a corked bat?
Has anyone else been caught in the last 10-15 years?

I almost never post here anymore. I probably visit this site 3 times a week. I used to post all the time back in the primer days, back when this was the best website on the internet. Not just the best sports site, but the best site period. The organic conversations that happened in the threads was unique and often magic. It's been a long time since this site came anywhere close to being that good. I don't think that I'm wrong in saying that the steroid issue killed this site. I'm going to explain why in three parts:

No one is innocent-First of all, if you are basing your knowledge of baseball on statistics, and many guys were taking performance enhancing drugs for any period of time while those statistics were being recorded, you just lost every argument that you have ever had. How do you account for Willie Mays being an amphetamine addict? Or Pete Rose never playing a game without his greenies? Coca-Cola used to have actual cocaine. How do we know that Cap Anson didn't just drink the heck out of that stuff and that was the only reason he was any good? We don't. If no one is innocent, then everyone is guilty, and at that point it all counts, right? Jimmy Foxx grew up on a farm and plowed the fields and became strong because of it. Sammy Sosa used a milk carton for a glove, and became driven to succeed because of it. Lance Armstrong used drugs to beat cancer, and then used drugs to win the Tour de France seven times. How is one thing good but the other atrocious? I can guarantee you that Ty Cobb would have used steroids if they were available to him. The fact is that there is no right answer. Honus Wagner, Frank Thomas and Bobby Orr are clean. Everybody else in the history of professional sports is suspect.

It worked-Second of all, I'm in the huge minority of people who love steroids. Not in and of themselves, but how much more awesome they make spectator sports. Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire saved baseball pure and simple. If the 1998 home run chase didn't happen this website would have half the traffic and MLB parks would have 20% less attendance. Steroids made baseball watchable for 10 solid years, probably more. Jose Canseco hitting the camera in game 1 of the 1988 World Series is almost as iconic as the cortisone-fueled Kirk Gibson homer was later that same game. Is cortisone not performance enhancing? Should we strike the Gibson moment from our memories? No. Because it was awesome. So was McGwire's 62nd homer, and Bonds' 71st, etc.

It was still fair-Third of all, I used to love watching WWF wrestling with Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage too. The important thing always has been that baseball is on the level. The NBA has Tim Donaghay, and anyone who's ever watched a pro basketball game knows it comes down to who has the best player, and that Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade can barell through a defender and draw a foul. That's what ruins basketball for me. I don't get that with baseball. There are the occasional Eric Greggs' and Angel Hernandez' that are just bad at their jobs, but I've never gotten the feeling that baseball was fixed. I'd say that NBA officiating is ten times as detrimental to the reputation of the NBA as steroids is to MLB.

Anyone could have taken steroids, and if they chose not to-like Frank Thomas-then they took a moral stand that overwhelming current public opinion shows that they were right. I respectfully disagree.

Here's something that is never said about the baseball steroid users: They wanted to win. Sure, doing steroids helped their stats and got them fat contracts. Do you really think that's why Barry Bonds did steroids? Barry Bonds did steroids because he wanted to do what his Godfather couldn't. Bring a World Series championship to San Fransisco. Same with Sosa. Same with Clemens. Same with Palmeiro. Same with McGwire. It's a team sport, and they were being good teammates. I wouldn't cheat, but I'd love to have teammates who would be willing to cheat to win. These guys wanted to win, and they want to win for their teammates and for the fans. Meanwhile, the fans love the effort. They love Manny Ramirez helping end 80+ years of losing. They love all of that. But as soon as any whiff of impropriety appears, the fans grab their torches and pitchforks. Whatever. The fans are idiots. The most important thing in team sports is that everyone is trying their best and the officials are on the level. The steroid issue doesn't effect that. So who cares?

Getting back to the reason that this website isn't as good as it used to be. This post in 2002 would have been followed by 3 days of vitriolic responses that cited everything from 19th century Supreme Court cases to Turkish proverbs, with Admiral Ackbar and Johnny Bench chiming in, Dan Werr giving a geography lesson, Brattain telling bad jokes, and Nieporent explaining that whoever leaked the results of the anonymous tests should be hung like Mussolini. Nowadays, it will be followed by one sentence quips. Steroids is the abortion debate of sports. People have already made up their minds, and that's it. There's no argument left to be had. I just have to sit here while the all-time hits leader, the all-time home run leader, and the only guy to ever hit 60 homers three times never get to Cooperstown because Napoleanic-complex sportswriters hold the keys to the kingdom. That has nothing to do with what I've seen happen on the baseball field. It's like someone had a Men In Black-style mind eraser, and used it on 90% of the baseball watching public.

The best thing I've ever seen on a baseball field was on or about September 19, 2001, when Sammy Sosa hit his 59th home run of the season and ran around the bases carrying an American flag. I don't care if he shot up 9000 grams of heroin to pull that off. It was majestic. It was important. Most of all, it was real. It happened. I refuse to let anyone take that away.

Isn't that what sports are about? The memories?

As an example, if you find out the cook at your favorite restaurant doesn't wash his hands after he wipes his ass, would you trust him for anything? Would you trust him less than you did before you knew that?

I think it just means I found out what makes his "special sauce" so special.

See Dan, I hate steroids, but share your dislike for the discourse on it here. I much prefer a more pitching and defense-oriented style of baseball. Probably because I grew up in the 70s and 80s. Of course, I have no idea to what extent steroids have affected run scoring, but that's kind of what they're supposed to do, at least on the offense end, and it's not hard to believe it has more of an effect on offense than on pitching and defense (again, an unknown though). I also have major ethical concerns about it, but I have no interest in discussing it further here.

As for Sosa:

I'm a big Cubs fan, and enjoyed his time with the Cubs. Loved the big HR totals when they were coming from Sosa. I saw him hit his 500th HR in Cincinnati! But I don't like the guy. He's a completely narcissistic jerk. Of course, faulting a star athlete for being a narcissist is something like faulting your dog for licking his balls, but he took it to a new level. I sort of assumed he was a PED user, like however many PED users there were out there at the time, and this just confirms it. So I'm not really feeling much in the way of disappointment. More a matter of confirmation of suspicion.

And from my strictly biased perspective, it might be nice to know what exactly was the PED in question.

To add to this, what was being tested for back in 2003? I am sure steroids, but what else? Amphetamines? Andro? I don't recall how broadly they defined PEDs for the purpose of those tests.

Greg, that's either the most bizarre or the most deadpan, tongue-in-cheek sentence I can ever remember reading on BTF. Or maybe it's possible that you've missed the last 500 steroids or political threads. Just out of curiosity, which is it?

I was going for run of the mill sarcasm, but I appreciate your compliment.

Well, as it turns out, it was well deserved, and well played.

And Dan, thanks for rehashing all the old apologists' cliches for old times' sake. And if you're not up picketing in Cooperstown or attending a wrestling smackdown, come back in 2013 for a reunion party.

Dan, I couldn't agree with you more as a former one-time Primer addict myself (I was Will, Will AKA RCS, Malcolm Little, etc, back in the day). That post was the best I've seen in years. I left for the same reasons, not to mention the racist overtones of the accusations over the years (McGwire, pass, Bonds/Sosa, lynch).

And if anyone's watching, I nominate it for a Primey.

I love Sosa. I got great joy watching that guy play, hit, and perform like Dwight Howard does now, with the giant smile. I miss being able to say that without being slammed for the bat and whatever other presumption of guilt we have.

Until the whole list is out legally, I trust nothing I hear of it. It wouldn't be admissible in a court of law (hearsay), it's not admissible in the court of Tuttle.

not to mention the racist overtones of the accusations over the years (McGwire, pass, Bonds/Sosa, lynch)

You have a rather bizarre definition of "lynching". You also have selective amnesia about unfolding events regarding this issue. Have you seen Mark McGwire's Hall of Fame vote totals? Or for that matter the ongoing Clemens investigation?

Throw the deck of race cards in the trash can where it belongs.

Maris is still the only player that doesn't fit in the +60 HR list.

Maris = J Burnitz give or take a little

In 1960 Maris had 64 XBH in 578 PAs
In 1962 Maris had 81 XBH in 698 PAs
In 1962 Maris had 68 XBH in 687 PAs

His extra base hits per PAs were:
1960: 11.1
1961: 11.6
1962: 9.8
1963: 10.8

In 1961 he had 61 homers out of 81 total XBHs....
But his XBH rate was not that much higher than other years

Anyway, he was quit a bit better than Burnitz
Shawn Green, among recent hitters, is probably a closer match as far as hitting goes

Throw the deck of race cards in the trash can where it belongs.

is there still a freeway in St Louis named after Big Mac? Just curious as i don't rightfully know?

Rocket got his day in front of congress. Hell he even got to lobby congress, before he went on to step all over his dick.
Bonds specifically wasn't invited to congress, because the federal government had a sweet little perjury trap set up for him. When the Bonds case ended up being weak, the feds started leaning on other ballplayers to try and catch Bonds on tape. When that backfired they went after family, and friends of family .. .. all the while leaking secret grand jury testimony, and any other trash they could find at the guy (see Kimberly Bell). Its been seven years now, and the broke ass federal government is still wasting your coin, trying to put the brother in jail. Seven years since Novitsky decided he was going to get his man, hell or high water. Three Grand jury's .. and the man still hasn't had his day in court.

I can guarantee you, no one is naming a freeway or a school after him either

Or for that matter the ongoing Clemens investigation?

Cant wait for that trial to fire up. I hope they televise it. The star witness is a rapist, who has been caught in a large number of lies. This is gonna be good.

is there still a freeway in St Louis named after Big Mac? Just curious as i don't rightfully know?

We're not here to talk about the path.

Joey, there was a huge long run here during which seemingly Sosa and Bonds alone were steroids scape goats. McGwire only got hammered post Congress and Clemens after that. Before Congress, people hammered Bonds and gave McGwire a pass, at least here on Primer. I don't remember you from those earlier days.

Your use of "race card" is telling.

And Dan, thanks for rehashing all the old apologists' cliches for old times' sake. And if you're not up picketing in Cooperstown or attending a wrestling smackdown, come back in 2013 for a reunion party.

Thanks for proving Dan's point about the level of discourse here.

A baseball player used STEROIDS!?

MISPLACED OUTRAGE!

We're not here to talk about the path.

primey

How many of you would be surprised to learn that this season's HR leaders are hiding current negative tests with whatever au courant masking agents are available now?

Even with 173, Dan wins the thread going away.

Joey, there was a huge long run here during which seemingly Sosa and Bonds alone were steroids scape goats. McGwire only got hammered post Congress and Clemens after that. Before Congress, people hammered Bonds and gave McGwire a pass, at least here on Primer. I don't remember you from those earlier days.

Oh, so it's the old BTF crowd that you're accusing of being racist "lynchers". I'm a little dubious, but you've clarified it a little better.

I'm pretty sure I've been around nearly as long as you have. I joined two days after you did, and I was around in the pre-registration days as well. I don't quite remember it that way, but I don't keep a dossier for everything everyone ever says here like some people do.

BTW #180 Vince Lloyd is still there for me, it is the least I can do for someone who announced that Jim Gilliam was coaching first base for the Dodgers several years after Jim had died.

And Dan, thanks for rehashing all the old apologists' cliches for old times' sake. And if you're not up picketing in Cooperstown or attending a wrestling smackdown, come back in 2013 for a reunion party.

Thanks for proving Dan's point about the level of discourse here.

Actually, I wasn't arguing against his observations, but do you really want another 5000 post steroids thread filled with lawyer's briefs about admissible evidence, and statistical "proofs" that steroids increased Bonds's home run totals by 17.66% and that Mickey Mantle's career stats were padded 14.31% by greenies? Do you honestly think that there's anything new to add to all this?

Of course the simplest solution is to stop posting articles like this for people to vent against. That'd be fine by me. Personally, I've found the NBA thread to be much more enjoyable.

Dossiers? WTF?

In the old days of Primer, we had had many, many threads about Bonds/Sosa, and they seemed to be the crux of those attacked circumstantially for PEDs. This was in large part because of the myriad articles centering around those two figures above all others. For as much as I and others pointed out that there was likely a racist component to their undue prominence in the anti-PED talks, it wasn't a popular opinion then, nor now, as you're showing.

Yes, I certainly meant that to be taken extremely literally on the word "lynch."

I love Jim Rome equating bat-corking with using roids.

Illegally decorating your car is like illegally modifying the motor.

I love Jim Rome equating bat-corking with using roids.

Illegally decorating your car is like illegally modifying the motor.

Aren't they both theoretically supposed to do the same thing? Hit the ball harder/farther?

And Tuttle - you are not the only one who thinks there is a racial undertone to the way steroids have been covered.

Troy Ellerman got 2.5 years for leaking grand jury testimony. That is more than his clients got for masterminding the bay area connection. How much more indignation do you want?

I don't want more indignation. I want Ellerman to be the rule rather than the exception.

I also want the scum who were leaking to the press about (say but not limited to) Richard Jewell to end up in prison too. Yeah I know Jewell ended up with a settlement, but that's not good enough.

I wonder how many positives on that list were from actual, intentional users of illegal steroids, and how many were from guys who were using perfectly legal GNC supplments that are banned from most sports as being performance enhancing.

There's a study out there some place that has over 20% of the supplements on the market at that time likely to result in positive drug tests. Mostly andro (often cited as a masking agent. In fact it seems to result in nandrolone false positives.)

And Tuttle - you are not the only one who thinks there is a racial undertone to the way steroids have been covered.

You might argue that point in the outside world, but it certainly hasn't been the case here. The few exceptions to this (mainly the mocking of Sosa's accent) have been rebutted pretty quickly.

I seem to remember some group of Primates giving me old heck for that stance: some name, gag, from "professional wrestling." The Union? Been a long time.

#189 - I agree, the undertones come from the media not here.

Personally, I've found the NBA thread to be much more enjoyable.

Me too, except for this one dude with a Walton fetish. Talk about being an apologist and rehashing tired arguments!

Count me as glad that that steroid aplauder no longer posts here. His point of view makes me sick and furious, People like him are what is wrong with sports and the world.

Here's something that is never said about the baseball steroid users: They wanted to win. Sure, doing steroids helped their stats and got them fat contracts. Do you really think that's why Barry Bonds did steroids?

I'm pretty much indifferent to steroids, but I do think stats and fat contracts are pretty much the only reason anyone used them.

Personally, I've found the NBA thread to be much more enjoyable.

Me too, except for this one dude with a Walton fetish. Talk about being an apologist and rehashing tired arguments!

Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Go, Bill!

Count me as glad that that steroid aplauder no longer posts here. His point of view makes me sick and furious, People like him are what is wrong with sports and the world.

As always, you are a real joy, Gaelan.

I'm sad that we don't have an intelligent poster here, not worrying about if his positions align 100% with mine.

It's all just a litmus test for you.

People who are so blinded by rage at their opposition that they can't take the care to read intelligently are much more a blight to the world.

Dr Stankus -

Galean is a philosopher. As such, all his opinions have been thoroughly reasoned out with the utmost care. To disagree with him is to smite all reason at it's source.

Galean is a philosopher. . . . To disagree with him is to smite all reason at it's source.

To take him off ignore is to smite all reason at its source.

johnny tuttle

i remember those discussions and you and i got our asses kicked for saying that there was anything racial about barry bonds Uppity Nigga Primero being treated different because of his race. or anything racial about sammy sosa wanting a translator to speak before CONGRESS

sigh

i miss you boy and hope that your wife and kids are doing well

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as for me i am patiently waiting to find out what the actual positive substance is (if it is even true) before judging