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Monday, July 20, 2009

NYBD: Heyman: Mets Turned Down Halladay

Mets rejected request of package of F-mart, Niese, Parnell and Ruben tejada for Halladay.

This was a very reasonable request by Toronto. I would have to guess the Mets are adverse to paying the price to keep Halladay around and don’t want to give up four of their better prospects. As I said with Brian Cashman on last night’s show, and this goes double for Minaya, he better be right on these guys or he will regret watching Minaya beat him in Philly.

Heyman is on MLB.Harold as we type…

Repoz Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:07 PM | 203 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, mets

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   1. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:21 PM (#3260625)
This means the Mets consider themselves officially done for 2009.
   2. Raskolnikov Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:22 PM (#3260627)
No to any package involving Fernando. Wilmer and Mejia are negotiable. Everyone else should be fair game.

If Omar can pull this off, I'll forgive him for Francoeur and Castro/Santos.
   3. Rough Carrigan Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:23 PM (#3260631)
Shouldn't the excerpt have said "averse" and not "adverse"?
   4. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:26 PM (#3260634)
Shouldn't the excerpt have said "averse" and not "adverse"?


That's the part of the excerpt that jumped out at you?
   5. Juan V Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:28 PM (#3260640)
Having Johan and Halladay in the same staff would be pretty neat, if nothing else.
   6. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:29 PM (#3260642)
No to any package involving Fernando.

I suspect that Halladay will not be going to any team that has an "untouchables" list.
   7. Sam M. Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:32 PM (#3260646)
If that's accurate, I wouldn't do that deal either without a Halladay extension. Halladay has almost no value to the Mets for the rest of 2009 -- they're done for this year. Would I give up all of those guys for Halladay's value in 2010 alone? No; I don't do rentals for Grade A prospect (F-Mart), a Grade B prospect (Niese) and a solid contributor like Parnell.

Extend him? I'd do it. Makes all the difference in the world.
   8.   Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:32 PM (#3260649)
No to any package involving Fernando.


Then no to Halladay.


Extend him? I'd do it. Makes all the difference in the world.


This could be a Delgado/04 situation where Halladay won't waive his NTC unless he can extend. It doesn't seem like he wants to be a rental any more than teams want him to be one.
   9. Swoboda is freedom Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:33 PM (#3260650)
I suspect that Halladay will not be going to any team that has an "untouchables" list.

Well, the Pirates do have those Indian pitchers, but I am not sure what caste they are from.
   10. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:34 PM (#3260652)
Does the Minaya in Philly have a goatee?
   11. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:35 PM (#3260655)
If FMart-blah is all Halladay's going to cost, then he's gonna get traded. One might be able to make the case that the Mets, because their farm system is barren, ought to hang on to what young talent they have, but pretty much every other team in contention can match that package.

I think the Mets should have taken it - they'd be the front-runners in 2010 immediately, with an outside shot at the division this year.

I'll bet that Halladay puts up more value in 2010 and the remainder of 2009 than those four guys do between 2010 and 2012.
   12. Raskolnikov Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:38 PM (#3260657)
Yeah, this is a double edged piece of news for the Mets. First, this means that we have a realistic shot at Halladay, which I didn't think that we had the chips for.
But it also means that the Phillies could match this package, and nothing would piss me off more than a rotation of Halladay/Hamels/Pedro. If that happens, you might as well check me into a mental asylum.
   13. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:39 PM (#3260661)
I'd have done this in a second. None of those guys are difference makers, and I don't know what FMart's ever done to make anyone think otherwise.
   14. Sam M. Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:43 PM (#3260665)
But it also means that the Phillies could match this package, and nothing would piss me off more than a rotation of Halladay/Hamels/Pedro.

I'm not so sure about that. The Phillies talk has been all about Kyle Drabek, and I don't know that they have a position player they can bring to the table who matches what F-Mart offers. If that is what the Jays want, can the Phillies really match/top it?

As for Pedro, that just doesn't bother me. What will bother me is when he gets hammered, regardless of the uni he's wearing.
   15. CraigK Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:43 PM (#3260666)
So, if this hypothetical trade went through, then what's the top prospect list for the Mets look like? I don't see anyone coming up for the forseeable future.
   16. Raskolnikov Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:46 PM (#3260670)
I don't know that they have a position player they can bring to the table who matches what F-Mart offers. If that is what the Jays want, can the Phillies really match/top it?

They have Michael Taylor and Dominic Brown. Kevin Goldstein absolutely loves Taylor, calls him a future occasional All-Star.

The Phillies system matches ours, likely is stronger.
   17. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:47 PM (#3260672)
The Phils might not have FMart but they can surround a Taylor/Brown with guys like Marson and Donald. If the Jays are willing to take the package Heyman names, the Phils can put together an equivalent if they so desire.

I'm also not sure why they're after an OF with Wells, Rios, Lind, and Snider in the mix in the forseeable future.
   18. Raskolnikov Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:47 PM (#3260673)
So, if this hypothetical trade went through, then what's the top prospect list for the Mets look like? I don't see anyone coming up for the forseeable future.

The top 5 prospects on the Mets are pretty easy. It's some order of Fernando, Wilmer Flores, Jenry Mejia, Brad Holt, and Ike Davis.

BTW: I still call BS on this Heyman rumor. The package that TOR asked for seems like something that they would settle for when down to no other options, not a package to ask for in 1st negotiations.
   19. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:49 PM (#3260675)
So, if this hypothetical trade went through, then what's the top prospect list for the Mets look like? I don't see anyone coming up for the forseeable future.
Brad Holt would probably be the number one.
   20. Mister High Standards Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:49 PM (#3260676)
I don't do rentals for Grade A prospect (F-Mart), a Grade B prospect (Niese) and a solid contributor like Parnell.


Is there any reputable source that actually currently considers F-mart a A level prospect or Niese a B level prospect?

Not that I disagree with the overarching point, that the Mets should sit this one out... so I guess I'm quibbling.

One might be able to make the case that the Mets, because their farm system is barren


I don't think the Mets system is that barren at this point.
   21. Sam M. Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:49 PM (#3260677)
So, if this hypothetical trade went through, then what's the top prospect list for the Mets look like? I don't see anyone coming up for the forseeable future.

1) Brad Holt
2) Jenry Mejia
3) Wilmer Flores
4) Ike Davis
5) Nick Evans
6) Reese Havens
7) Steven Matz
8) Josh Thole
9) Jefry Marte
10) Ruben Tejada

Something like that?
   22. Raskolnikov Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:52 PM (#3260683)
I love Thole, but I don't think he's going to rank high amongst the lists. I don't think scouts are convinced by his defense.

But Ike Davis and Wilmer Flores must have moved up some lists this past month. Davis is showing that he can clearly handle AA, and Flores likewise in low A.
   23. Sam M. Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:54 PM (#3260688)
Is there any reputable source that actually currently considers F-mart a A level prospect or Niese a B level prospect?

Well, even before he had a very good season at Buffalo, BA ranked him the # 30 prospect in all of baseball. Personally, I put aside his struggles at the major league level; the kid is 20 years old -- at the same age, David Wright was at St. Lucie, for goodness sake. But I also think F-Mart needs a good year of seasoning. The talent is there, but his approach at the plate still needs development.

I think Niese is a B level prospect. He strikes me as a guy who is very likely to be a good contributor, but very unlikely to be a star. I like the high probability a lot, and am not all that worried about the lack of a star ceiling.
   24. HGH Positive Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:54 PM (#3260689)
I don't believe Evans qualifies anymore.

Familia is likely above Matz for now.
   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:57 PM (#3260691)
If I were Minaya, I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could extend him, and I don't see why the Mets couldn't.
   26. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:00 AM (#3260695)
I love me some Fernando but all these injuries are starting to worry me. That's the only reason why I could live with the potential deal above.

Stefan Welch is really mashing in St. Lucie. Francisco Pena hit homers in three straight days and I thought he might be turning a corner but he's struggling again. I don't know where I'd place those guys.
   27. HGH Positive Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3260702)
Pena is still extremely young, that's what I keep telling myself.

I wish we'd keep one prospect on a typical progression scale so we can properly judge their development.
   28. Sam M. Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:02 AM (#3260703)
I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could extend him, and I don't see why the Mets couldn't.

There could be millions of reasons why he couldn't. Or maybe just two:

1) Halladay wants to hit the FA market to (a) test his value, (b) wait and see if the Mets are going to be contenders, (c) decide if he wants to be in the NL, or any of a number of other reasons.

2) The Mets really are in a precarious financial position because of the Madoff thing, and have to retrench on the budget. Spending huge bucks on Halladay and a Halladay extension -- and knowing they also have big holes to fill in the outfield -- may just be something they are not in a position to take on right now. I for one will be very, very curious to see what next year's budget looks like.
   29. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:04 AM (#3260706)
but all these injuries are starting to worry me.

None of them bothered me until the recent one. Torn meniscus is a serious injury - cartilage doesn't repair itself. I'm praying that Fernando won't lose anything when he gets back. But when we saw him finally in June, I can see why everyone was enamored with him. Plus raw speed and plus power even to the opposite field.

BTW, I would actually put Alonzo Harris as my #5 prospect for the Mets. But Sam and Russlan knows how much I value players with raw potential over reliability.
   30. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:05 AM (#3260707)
Bart Hubbach says the Wilpons can't afford a Halladay extension.
   31. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:08 AM (#3260713)
I wish we'd keep one prospect on a typical progression scale so we can properly judge their development.

Unlikely for the teenage prospects. The Mets do it a different way from other organizations. Basically, they challenge the teen prospects to a level where they initially will be overmatched. Then one judges whether the kid can figure it out as the season progresses. Hence, many of the teen prospects won't have gaudy overall season stats.

Personally, I love this approach. Being able to adjust after initially being overmatched requires a type of intelligence and resilience which should pay off in the long run.

For the college prospects, the Mets tend to follow a more conventional approach.
   32. Swedish Chef Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:19 AM (#3260738)
Bart Hubbach says the Wilpons can't afford a Halladay extension.

If that is the case they shouldn't be involved.
   33. Sam M. Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:24 AM (#3260746)
Bart Hubbach says the Wilpons can't afford a Halladay extension.

If that is the case they shouldn't be involved.


If that is the case, they shouldn't be the owners of the Mets.

A good way to raise $1B or so would be to sell the team. They recapitalize, and the Mets get more competent ownership. And the world is an all-around happier place.

Mark Cuban, come on down.
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:25 AM (#3260747)
If that is the case, they shouldn't be the owners of the Mets.


Winner.
   35. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:26 AM (#3260748)
Cuban, come on down.

Oh great, another reason for Levski to make stupid jokes about street spanish.
   36. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:27 AM (#3260749)
Ed Coleman talking on the WFAN right now.

- Omar and Jerry will be back next year.

- Sounds like Omar and JP have been talking, but no comment on which side has rejected whom.

- Reyes is the closest to coming back.
   37.   Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:29 AM (#3260754)

Something like that?


Ruben Tejada was part of the hypothetical.
   38. Metman died today. Or yesterday maybe, Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:45 AM (#3260794)
There is no possible way this rumor is true. F-Mart, a fringe 4-5 starter, a reliever, and an A ball SS that can't really hit? Seriously? Absolutely no way. Phillies could top that without touching Brown or Drabek. Laughable.
   39. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:49 AM (#3260803)
Laughable.


Well, Rasky said it was too much.
   40. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:50 AM (#3260809)
There is no possible way this rumor is true. F-Mart, a fringe 4-5 starter, a reliever, and an A ball SS that can't really hit? Seriously? Absolutely no way. Phillies could top that without touching Brown or Drabek. Laughable.


Seriously, Ricciardi has done some pretty dumb things, but there's no way he's this stupid. To turn a pitcher on a borderline Hall of Fame career path into that package would get him strung up in Toronto.

The Jays have enough outfielders, and they (believe it or not) have more than enough back of the rotation starters and relievers. The only way this rumour makes sense is if it also involves the Mets eating the Wells deal, which the Wilpons (rightfully) won't do.
   41. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:52 AM (#3260812)
I'd give up my left pinkie before watching Fernando in another uniform.

BTW, Primakov, I stated above that I think this rumor is not true. I can't see Ricciardi settling for this package so early.
   42. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:53 AM (#3260815)
I'd give up my left pinkie before watching Fernando in another uniform.


Fair enough. I'll burn Toronto to the ground before watching Halladay in another uniform.

(prediction for next year: unseasonably flammable)
   43. Greg K Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:56 AM (#3260822)
Fair enough. I'll burn Toronto to the ground before watching Halladay in another uniform.

Are we talking like everything south of Bloor? Or the whole Mega-City? Just curious about whether I should stay in Scarborough the next two weeks or head up to the cottage.
   44. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:58 AM (#3260828)
Are we talking like everything south of Bloor? Or the whole Mega-City? Just curious about whether I should stay in Scarborough the next two weeks or head up to the cottage.


If I were you, I'd make sure to be north of Barrie. Once I get started, it might be hard to stop.

Seriously, all these trade rumours are just killing me.
   45. Greg K Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:02 AM (#3260833)
I'm finding that it calms me down to go back and look at Vernon Wells trade rumours from before he signed his contract. It's the little things that really make being a Jays fan a joy.
   46. Swedish Chef Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:03 AM (#3260835)
I don't see how Toronto fans can expect to get more than one super prospect, a very good one and a couple of mildly useful players.
   47. steagles Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:03 AM (#3260839)

There is no possible way this rumor is true. F-Mart, a fringe 4-5 starter, a reliever, and an A ball SS that can't really hit? Seriously? Absolutely no way. Phillies could top that without touching Brown or Drabek. Laughable.
the only thing this leak could even come close to accomplishing is to poison the well for a potential phillies trade for halladay. drabek's tangible upside far exceeds that of niese or holt, since he's got the best of both of them in the same frame. his fastball matches holt's, and his curve is just as good a pitch as any of niese's.

and if anyone thinks f-mart is a better prospect than michael taylor, well, please, join my DMB league. here's the website.




as i said, the only possible reason for this to have gotten out is to poison the well for the phillies. if they were dumb enough to believe it, either they'd pull drabek and taylor off the table and try to pawn off donald, marson, carpenter, savery, and knapp because TOR didn't hold out for a better offer from the mets, or if they're dumb enough to believe the mets hype, they'd bow to pressure and overpay by dumping both of taylor and drabek.



seriously, you people are slipping.
   48. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:04 AM (#3260841)
I'm finding that it calms me down to go back and look at Vernon Wells trade rumours from before he signed his contract.


It'd calm me down a lot more if there were Vernon Wells rumours now.
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:14 AM (#3260870)
It'd calm me down a lot more if there were Vernon Wells rumours now.

Halladay, Wells and $50M to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera, Austin Romine, and 2 B- arms.

Feel better?
   50. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:18 AM (#3260876)
cheney, Goldstein's on your side, but I'm not going to concede Taylor vs. Fernando. I'll give you Drabek vs. Holt (although I think it's close), but Fernando's a 20 yo who's hit well in AAA, Taylor's a 23 yo who's hit well in AA. I think Fernando is the best player in either the PHI or NYM systems.
   51. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:18 AM (#3260877)
Halladay, Wells to the Yankees for Melky Cabrera, Austin Romine, 2 B- arms, and $50M.


There. Now I'd almost feel not completely terrible.
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:22 AM (#3260884)
There. Now I'd almost feel not completely terrible.

Sorry, even the Yankees aren't that rich. That big a bailout requires Federal money. Maybe the Canadian and Ontario governments can pay Wells' contract to facilitate the trade.

Seriously, that Wells contract is unfathomably bad. If the Jays offered Halladay and Wells for absolutely nothing I don't think even the Yankees could do it.
   53. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:25 AM (#3260889)
I suspect that Halladay will not be going to any team that has an "untouchables" list.

Well, the Pirates do have those Indian pitchers, but I am not sure what caste they are from.


This response should have been acknowledged many posts ago. Kudos.
   54. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:26 AM (#3260890)
Seriously, that Wells contract is unfathomably bad. If the Jays offered Halladay and Wells for absolutely nothing I don't think even the Yankees could do it.


Sadly enough, I know. The contract is just a massive albatross. The Yankees probably could afford it, but they'd then be hard pressed to extend the Halladay contract and fill whatever offseason holes they may have.
   55. steagles Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:27 AM (#3260894)
cheney, Goldstein's on your side, but I'm not going to concede Taylor vs. Fernando. I'll give you Drabek vs. Holt (although I think it's close), but Fernando's a 20 yo who's hit well in AAA, Taylor's a 23 yo who's hit well in AA. I think Fernando is the best player in either the PHI or NYM systems.


i'll put it like this, f-mart's physical upside is as a .330/.380/.500 CFer. that being said, both his bat, and his likely position are in doubt, and though i'm actually a believer in f-mart, 95 times out of 100, he tops out as a serviceable starter. those other 5 times, he's maybe garrett anderson/luis gonzalez (pre roids)

michael taylor, though he's 3 years older and playing at a lower level, has the physical upside of being the best player in baseball. and not only does he have the look and the body, he's got the stats as well. he's an absolute stud.
   56. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:29 AM (#3260899)
Ed Coleman talking on the WFAN right now.

- Omar and Jerry will be back next year.


I guess the Wilpons must have detected that the fans are not quite enough enraged and still have some hope left.
   57. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:30 AM (#3260905)
Sadly enough, I know. The contract is just a massive albatross. The Yankees probably could afford it, but they'd then be hard pressed to extend the Halladay contract and fill whatever offseason holes they may have.

Yes. They could technically afford it with the Damon/Matsui/Pettitte money. But, they'd only trade for him to extend him and they'd basically be paying Halladay $40M per year plus luxury tax, so almost $60M per year. No player is worth that, unless you resurrected a 21 year old Babe Ruth and failed to alert the media.
   58. Swedish Chef Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:34 AM (#3260912)
The Blue Jays should do with Wells what banks do when they have assets that stink, they should finance his salary by selling bonds backed by his performance.
   59. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:34 AM (#3260913)
has the physical upside of being the best player in baseball. and not only does he have the look and the body,

So did Glenalen Hill. I think Taylor is intriguing, and I respect Goldstein's input, but let's see Taylor sustain this over a couple of years and another level first. Taylor could also bust.
   60. Metman died today. Or yesterday maybe, Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:47 AM (#3260932)
cheney, Goldstein's on your side, but I'm not going to concede Taylor vs. Fernando. I'll give you Drabek vs. Holt (although I think it's close), but Fernando's a 20 yo who's hit well in AAA, Taylor's a 23 yo who's hit well in AA. I think Fernando is the best player in either the PHI or NYM systems


Who knows on FMart v. Taylor. FMart has been so badly rushed for no good reason he never has had the chance for sustained success. The Mets are just awful at letting prospects progress on a normal path. He had one good month at AAA before he was stupidly rushed to ML before he had any chance of learning patience, pitch recognition, etc. And he might be Snelling Part II.

Drabek has a substantially higher upside than Holt and is 14 months younger.
   61. steagles Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:55 AM (#3260952)

So did Glenalen Hill. I think Taylor is intriguing, and I respect Goldstein's input, but let's see Taylor sustain this over a couple of years and another level first. Taylor could also bust.
taylor has sustained this level of performance for a year and a half now, over three different levels. i still question exactly how high an average he'll hit for at the major league level, but after seeing him play last year in low A, and now having seen him play this year in AA, i am 100% a believer. the guy is great.
   62. J. Michael Neal Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:05 AM (#3260977)
Who knows on FMart v. Taylor. FMart has been so badly rushed for no good reason he never has had the chance for sustained success. The Mets are just awful at letting prospects progress on a normal path. He had one good month at AAA before he was stupidly rushed to ML before he had any chance of learning patience, pitch recognition, etc. And he might be Snelling Part II.

You bad mouthed Ruben Tejada up above, but he's in the same boat. He's a 19-year old getting on base at a .350 clip in AA. I don't think he's a star in the making, but I think he's definitely interesting.
   63. Bob Koo Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:11 AM (#3260986)
I would definitely do that trade, even without the extension. You energize the fan base for the rest of 2009, and have a strong chance of being the NL favorite in 2010. And you'll have first dibs on re-signing him.

Let's look at the pieces: Parnell's ceiling is quality setup man, and I don't even think he gets there. I like Niese (see him as a future #3 starter), but you're upgrading him with Halladay (and you still have Holt and Mejia). Martinez is injury-prone, and many scouts vary on his long-term potential. And Tejada? Nothing special at all.

I guess it depends on what you think of Martinez. I'm not as high on him as some other Mets fans on this site, so to me, this deal is a no-brainer. Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball, and he seems to be someone who will age well.

And yes, Wilpons, please sell the team.
   64. Bob Koo Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:12 AM (#3260990)
You bad mouthed Ruben Tejada up above, but he's in the same boat. He's a 19-year old getting on base at a .350 clip in AA. I don't think he's a star in the making, but I think he's definitely interesting.

Very few talent evaluators think Tejada will ever be a good major-league hitter. Just looking at OBP is not a good way to make a value judgment on a prospect.
   65. Metman died today. Or yesterday maybe, Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:28 AM (#3261011)
You bad mouthed Ruben Tejada up above, but he's in the same boat. He's a 19-year old getting on base at a .350 clip in AA. I don't think he's a star in the making, but I think he's definitely interesting.


Tejada has no business being a 19 year old in AA. He had a .588 OPS in in High A last year (which he shouldnt have been in). He should be in Low A or the FSL at best. The Mets continually do this and it benefits no one. Their player development system blows.
   66. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:40 AM (#3261028)
Tejada has no business being a 19 year old in AA. He had a .588 OPS in in High A last year (which he shouldnt have been in). He should be in Low A or the FSL at best. The Mets continually do this and it benefits no one. Their player development system blows.


Tejada is on AA because Havens is in High A and Flores is in Low A. Of course with Havens injuries, he could have been playing High A. But Tejada is going to be a backup infielder or trade bait at best for the Mets.
   67. Metman died today. Or yesterday maybe, Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:50 AM (#3261044)
KLaw now twittering the obvious in light of the prospects involved...this story was bogus.
   68. The Artist Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:55 AM (#3261052)
There's no way the Mets get him for one good prospect, and 3 could=be sorta might be's. And at some point, F-Mart (an admittedly very good prospect) needs to actually produce to match the hype.
   69. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:02 AM (#3261060)
There's no way the Mets get him for one good prospect, and 3 scrubs; Neise is neat at best. And at some point, F-Mart (an admittedly very good prospect) needs to actually produce to match the hype.

Fernando was mashing in AAA this year and mashed in Low-A at the age of 17. He's been promoted aggressively so his minor league numbers weren't great in in 2007 and 2008 but to say he has not actually produced is inaccuarate.

Tejada's only 19 and holding his own in AA. He's a small guy though and I am not sure if he'll ever hit for power. He draws a lot of walks but he strike out too much to be a good regular if he doesn't add that power. In reality, he probably needs Luis Castillo to teach him how to be a better table-setter.
   70. Hugh Jorgan Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:04 AM (#3261066)
Hmmmm, the Mets. I thought Doc wanted to go to a contender who would make the playoffs every year...guess not.
   71. The Artist Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:10 AM (#3261071)
Tejada's only 19 and holding his own in AA. He's a small guy though and I am not sure if he'll ever hit for power. He draws a lot of walks but he strike out too much to be a good regular if he doesn't add that power. In reality, he probably needs Luis Castillo to teach him how to be a better table-setter.


He had a .589! OPS last year in A ball. I get the Mets keep pushing their guys up the ladder, but he has to produce at even league-average levels some point, right?

Re: Martinez, again, I accept the age argument to some extent and he's a very good prospect, but a lot of it is projection; he's looked good in AAA this year, but let him keep that up the whole season. He's not worth Halladay though.
   72. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:18 AM (#3261081)
I am just talking about the prospects, not whether they are worth Halladay. I have no idea what Halladay's worth because of his contract status and the fact that I don't know how many teams can afford a Halladay extension.

Tejada does have a .278/.350/.356 batting line this season. It's not particularly good but it's probably around league average for a middle infielder. Your point is taken that he's more about projection than actual performance but it's OK.

Ike Davis, who looked like a complete bust last season, is handling his promotion to AA quite well. .286/.386/.510 in AA after a miserable .650ish OPS in rookie-ball last year.
   73. Sam M. Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:33 AM (#3261088)
KLaw now twittering the obvious in light of the prospects involved...this story was bogus.

Let's assume for the moment that it was. The question then becomes: why? Who planted this story with Heyman and for what purpose? The only reason someone with the Mets would have done it would be to create the impression that someone out there has a higher regard for the Mets' system (and these prospects in particular) than the general consensus holds. You leak enough of these rumors, and you might -- might -- begin to create a bit of a new CW about your system.

Far more likely, though, is that it came from the Jays. Their incentive would be to prime the pump. Get teams thinking a trade can get done, that they are not aiming as high as some earlier articles have made it seem. Far from poisoning the well, it starts the offers coming in, and then J.P. uses that to get the bidding going. It's like an auctioneer who can't get an opening bid at his first price lowering it to get things started . . . in the hopes that once the crowd warms up, it'll eventually soar to what he hopes the market will bear.

That'd be my guess.
   74. JPWF13 Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:33 AM (#3261090)
BTW: I still call BS on this Heyman rumor. The package that TOR asked for seems like something that they would settle for when down to no other options, not a package to ask for in 1st negotiations.


Well it is MORE than Minny took for Johan....

Seriously, I can't believe Toronto wouldn't ask for Holt if in fact they were making the pitch to the Mets and not the other way around.

FMart has missed time to injuries EVERY YEAR as a pro, that is really starting to worry me.
I'm not high on Parnell
Tejada- eh
I like Niese, but I doubt he'd ever be a star, maybe a John Maine type.
   75. JPWF13 Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:35 AM (#3261091)
The question then becomes: why?


Which leads to "who", and my guess is Bernazard
   76. Darren Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:41 AM (#3261096)
Who among these players does Boras represent and how does this article benefit him? That's the question to ask while reading it.
   77. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:47 AM (#3261100)
It is nice to see Heyman get punked.
   78. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:16 AM (#3261114)
Far more likely, though, is that it came from the Jays.


So, Toronto plants a rumour that F-Mart etc, was too much to ask for Halladay? And they should ask for less?
   79. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:21 AM (#3261117)
It is nice to see Heyman get punked.

Are Law's sources much more likely to be right than Heyman?

BTW, posted without comment: Francoeur's first seven games with the Mets: .345/.345/.517 with 7 ribbies in 7 games.
   80. Eric P. Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:22 AM (#3261118)
mets' rejection of jays' 4-prospect bid shows value of youth (and money). dont forget, mets got santana for much less!


That's Heyman's follow-up on Twitter. So take a wild guess which camp planted this story.
   81. Eric P. Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:24 AM (#3261120)
BTW, posted without comment: Francoeur's first seven games with the Mets: .345/.345/.517 with 7 ribbies in 7 games.


Likewise without comment, Frenchy's first 6 games with the Mets: .280/.280/.320.
   82. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:27 AM (#3261121)
Very few talent evaluators think Tejada will ever be a good major-league hitter. Just looking at OBP is not a good way to make a value judgment on a prospect.

But Tejada is going to be a backup infielder or trade bait at best for the Mets.


I respect Bob and Mark S, but I strongly disagree with this. Tejada's a 19yo holding his own in AA, there's no way anyone can project his ceiling at this point. Okay, he won't be Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder. But he's not going to flame out at AA either, where many youngsters' hopes end (like say Aaron Baldiris). He could end up anywhere in between, which spans the entire major league player spectrum.

The next 2 years will go a long way towards determining what type of player Tejada will become. I would think any team that will trade for him must be hoping for the chance that he'll develop into a starting caliber middle infielder.
   83. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:33 AM (#3261122)
I don't know. Maybe the fact Law is a former member of the Toronto front office. And he's saying multiple sources. And he's smarter than Heyman. And that rumor doesn't pass the smell test.

The only way the Mets reject that offer is if their financial situation is worse than we think.
   84. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:39 AM (#3261125)
I don't know. Maybe the fact Law is a former member of the Toronto front office. And he's saying multiple sources. And he's smarter than Heyman. And that rumor doesn't pass the smell test.

Well, if you put it that way....

I know Frenchy's good game spiked his numbers but I am just giddy when I see a Met hit a homer. His homer tonight was only the fourth one the Mets have hit this month.
   85. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:41 AM (#3261129)
Well it is MORE than Minny took for Johan....


People keep raising the Santana trade as a comparison to the Halladay sweeps, but there are two things I'd like to bring up:

1) Delios Guerra was the other big prize in the NYM end. Nowadays, the perception is Gomez + 3 scrubs, but Sickels and Goldstein raved about Guerra throughout the year. Many thought that he would eventually developed a mid90s fastball to complement his excellent changeup, with front-line starter as a ceiling. Guerra just stopped developing, and now is actually getting worse. Ah, pitching prospects.

2) Minny was basically left in a bind. They were intent on shopping Santana and looked to play off Boston and NYY against each other. Instead, it turned out that BOS and NYY were more interested in blocking Santana from going to the other side. BOS will unwilling to part with Bucholz, NYY with Hughes. Look at the comments after the Santana trade, Boston and Yankee primates were happy that Santana wasn't going to the enemy, not annoyed that they didn't get Johan.

Omar timed it perfectly. MINN was impatient to get some kind of prospect haul and move on, while the Yankees and the Bosox were more interested in obstructing each other's negotiations. So the Mets ended up with the coup.

I doubt that any GM will be able to have the timing of circumstances that enabled the Santana trade.
   86. J. Michael Neal Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:44 AM (#3261130)
You know who Tejada's stat lines look an awful lot like? Elvis Andrus. No, I don't think either one of them is ever going to be a great hitter. However, I think both of them have the chance to be decent major league shortstops.
   87. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:44 AM (#3261131)

Ike Davis, who looked like a complete bust last season, is handling his promotion to AA quite well. .286/.386/.510 in AA after a miserable .650ish OPS in rookie-ball last year.


Davis with another HR tonight. As did Flores and Pena. This was one of the best nights of the year for the farm.
   88. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:46 AM (#3261132)
Cuban, come on down.
Oh great, another reason for Levski to make stupid jokes about street spanish.

Such a move would allow the Mets to wrestle the the all important pipeline into the deep reservoir of Cuban baseball away from the Yankees.
   89. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:48 AM (#3261134)
I respect Bob and Mark S, but I strongly disagree with this. Tejada's a 19yo holding his own in AA, there's no way anyone can project his ceiling at this point.


Tejada isn't going to be playing SS for the Mets, since they have Reyes signed for several more years. Havens is a step behind Tejada, has better power and patience, assuming he can stay healthy. If Tejada breaks out, it won't be for the Mets.
   90. Ron Johnson Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:49 AM (#3261135)
Sam a complication on the extending Halliday front. Riccardi has said that nobody can talk to Halliday before making the deal.

To me that's a sign that he really doesn't want to make a deal.

Of course he's free to change his mind if he gets his price, but it sure looks to me like he's doing his best to deter the offers he really has to think about.
   91. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:49 AM (#3261136)
While on the bus thinking about the Mets selling, I came up with a proposal which will never happen but would be interesting to think about:

Let's say that Beltran returns in August and shows that he is healthy in September, showing his old form.
Thole continues his current production.

Montero and Jackson continue their current pace.

Would a Beltran + Thole (or Pena) for Montero + Jackson + Melky work for both sides?
   92. Ignatius J. Reilly Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:50 AM (#3261138)
Does Tejada play defense like Andrus?
   93. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:50 AM (#3261139)
Well, the Pirates do have those Indian pitchers, but I am not sure what caste they are from.
This response should have been acknowledged many posts ago. Kudos.
Oh boy. Someone is not going to be amused at all by this, I suspect
   94. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:51 AM (#3261140)
That is Pena's 4th homer in 7 days. He really hasn't shown much as a hitter up to this point so it's nice to see that he has that kind of power.

Thole and Pena are almost the exact opposite as prospects but probably have the same value. It's kind of funny.
   95. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:52 AM (#3261141)
Ike Davis, who looked like a complete bust last season


Rookie League numbers are like Spring Training numbers, you can't take them as any sort of projection about the player.
   96. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:53 AM (#3261142)
To me that's a sign that he really doesn't want to make a deal.

Of course he's free to change his mind if he gets his price, but it sure looks to me like he's doing his best to deter the offers he really has to think about.


I don't get it. If it's to maximize prospects, he should be able to get the same number/quality this offseason.

The only reason to shop Halliday at the deadline is because of orders from above to cut salary by the deadline. Otherwise, he's just creating a PR nightmare as well as alienating Halliday.
   97. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:53 AM (#3261143)
Omar and Jerry will be back next year.
I guess the Wilpons must have detected that the fans are not quite enough enraged and still have some hope left.
My guess is the Wilpons are so broke right now, they couldn't afford an upgrade on the Delta shuttle to Atlanta, never mind an upgrade at GM and manager.
   98. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:55 AM (#3261145)

Thole and Pena are almost the exact opposite as prospects but probably have the same value. It's kind of funny.


It's too bad that they're both LH hitting, because they would make a perfect catching platoon pair.

Russlan: Thanks for the info. For some reason, all these years, I've always thought that Pena was LHed. Great, we should be set at C in a few years.
   99. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:55 AM (#3261146)
KLaw now twittering the obvious in light of the prospects involved...this story was bogus.
JP, being the ultimate intellectual, actually asked Omar for Fermat.
   100. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:00 AM (#3261149)
Rasky, Francisco is righthanded.

Havens has power and plate discipline but his numbers aren't great (I know his BABIP is low). He hasn't been able to stay healthy and he is making a ton of errors at SS so I am not sure he'd be a good defensive secondbaseman.
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