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Monday, July 20, 2009

NYBD: Heyman: Mets Turned Down Halladay

Mets rejected request of package of F-mart, Niese, Parnell and Ruben tejada for Halladay.

This was a very reasonable request by Toronto. I would have to guess the Mets are adverse to paying the price to keep Halladay around and don’t want to give up four of their better prospects. As I said with Brian Cashman on last night’s show, and this goes double for Minaya, he better be right on these guys or he will regret watching Minaya beat him in Philly.

Heyman is on MLB.Harold as we type…

Repoz Posted: July 20, 2009 at 11:07 PM | 203 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, mets

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   101. Xander Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:11 AM (#3261157)
Sebastian Valle is a stud. That is all.
   102. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:14 AM (#3261160)
Would a Beltran + Thole (or Pena) for Montero + Jackson + Melky work for both sides?


No. Gardner will hit worse than he has, but he's an excellent defender and the Yankees need pitching far more than a CF right now, especially an expensive one in his 30's.

Anyway, if Montero is traded (and it will break my heart if he is) it better be in a deal for someone like Halladay.
   103. Eric P. Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:18 AM (#3261161)
I don't get it. If it's to maximize prospects, he should be able to get the same number/quality this offseason.


Why would any team pay the same price for a lesser return? That makes zero sense. You're pretty much saying that it wouldn't be worth anything to (let's say) the Phillies to have Doc for a playoff push and potentially heading their postseason rotation.
   104. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:19 AM (#3261162)
Sebastian Valle is a stud
I agree. I saw him play against the Cyclones last week, and I think he was by far the best hitter on that Crosscutters team. A catcher, left handed, sweet swing... he made the Phillies first round pick Anthony Hewitt look embarrassingly bad in comparison, even if we're talking about only a few at bats for each player.
   105. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:26 AM (#3261171)
Oh great, how do the Phils keep coming up with these kids? Looking at the great bbref though, it looks like his CS% is pretty poor. Does Valle stick at C as he moves up?
   106. Xander Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:29 AM (#3261175)
I saw him this weekend. His arm was a tick below average. He received well and was athletic for the position.

Here is a video I took of him hitting a double, in case you're interested.
   107. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:33 AM (#3261180)
Valle's defense looked pretty good to me, but then I only stayed at the Holiday Inn Express that night.

From a scouting report on him from earlier this year

Defense: Originally, Valle was going to be a first baseman, but he simply wasn't going to have the glove to stick at first, so the Phillies have worked with him on learning how to catch and so far, so good. He needs some work on his mechanics, especially on putting himself into position to be able to throw out base-stealers. Last season, he threw out less than 25% of the runners attempting to run against him. The good news is that it's not really his arm that's the problem, most of the issues come from simply not knowing the mechanics of catching. Otherwise, he's picked up the skills pretty well and just needs to play more behind the plate and continue working on his defense to improve what he'll be able to do behind the plate.
   108. thetailor Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:34 AM (#3261182)
Tejada isn't going to be playing SS for the Mets, since they have Reyes signed for several more years. Havens is a step behind Tejada, has better power and patience, assuming he can stay healthy. If Tejada breaks out, it won't be for the Mets.

I don't know about this, and don't really understand why Tejada is getting talked-down so much in this string. Do the scouts hate him? I mean, the kid is putting up a decent OBP in AA as a 19 year old -- he's not hitting the cover off the ball, but is a 691 OPS really that bad from a 19 year old middle infielder at that level? And Binghamton isn't a friendly place to hit, if I recall.

As for Havens, the dude is three years older than Tejada and at a lower level, putting up pretty awful numbers. Someone mentioned the low BABIP but... 228/341/416? He's a college kid, he shouldn't be struggling in High-A like this.

None of this even mentions the sudden and terrifying uncertainty I have about Reyes' future in New York. I don't know what it was, but about two weeks ago I started getting a really bad feeling about his chances of sticking around. With the Mets floundering like this and with everyone clamoring for an "image makeover", doesn't he seem like the likeliest player to move? A young, talented SS who is under contract will bring back a TON in a trade -- I could see Omar doing it.
   109. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:38 AM (#3261187)
BTW, templeusox's video is right (obviously) - Valle is right handed hitter. His milb.com page really had me confused...
But it's the same hitter I saw - and he had a good series, 2 home runs on the 14th, a triple down the rf line on the 15th...
   110. thetailor Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:40 AM (#3261188)
Also, Ike Davis? Not liking him. I know that Brooklyn isn't a good place to hit either but his line this year seems a little artificially inflated.

Sure, he's hitting 277/376/457 (per fangraphs) but it's a fortunate line. He's striking out 30% of the time and his BABIP is .361. He's probably closer to 250/350/420 right? Do scouts like him? I saw him at Brooklyn a few times and not only did he go hitless but he looked bad.
   111. Xander Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:41 AM (#3261190)
Levski, you're right to be confused. Last year, he was always listed as batting right and throwing left, which, being so rare for a catcher, is why he caught my eye. This year, he is listed the opposite, even though he appears to be a garden variety R/R.

Edit: Levski, tell me if you agree, that league is as weak as I can ever remember it. Usually, there are one or two watchable prospects on each NYPL team. This year, you're lucky to get one. I've seen 6 teams so far and Valle and Westmoreland are the only who jump out at me as position prospects with any future.
   112. Raskolnikov Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:46 AM (#3261195)

I don't know about this, and don't really understand why Tejada is getting talked-down so much in this string. Do the scouts hate him? I mean, the kid is putting up a decent OBP in AA as a 19 year old -- he's not hitting the cover off the ball, but is a 691 OPS really that bad from a 19 year old middle infielder at that level? And Binghamton isn't a friendly place to hit, if I recall.

As for Havens, the dude is three years older than Tejada and at a lower level, putting up pretty awful numbers. Someone mentioned the low BABIP but... 228/341/416? He's a college kid, he shouldn't be struggling in High-A like this.


I've been arguing this point re: Havens vs. Tejada to Sam and Russlan. The injuries have really hurt Havens' development. He's relatively old and needs to start matching up with his peers at higher levels. He's been reasonably productive, but it would be a stretch to move him up to AA at this point. Unlike the teens that the Mets have been promoting aggressively, the time is ticking on Havens. How he finishes 2009 will be very important.

As for Tejada, what I love in particular is the resilience. The Mets putting him in the FSL last year and AA this year could have been disastrous. He was overmatched in the FSL last year and overmatched for the first month of this year. But rather than let his confidence get crushed, he adjusted and slowly bounced back. By now, I don't think anyone thinks that he's at the wrong level. That type of resilience will be so useful when he gets to the majors.
   113. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:53 AM (#3261200)
Sure, he's hitting 277/376/457 (per fangraphs) but it's a fortunate line. He's striking out 30% of the time and his BABIP is .361. He's probably closer to 250/350/420 right? Do scouts like him? I saw him at Brooklyn a few times and not only did he go hitless but he looked bad.

Davis went 2-4 with a double, homer, and a walk to raise his batting line to .286/.386/.500.

Also, BABIP for batters isn't quite the same as that of hitters so a .300 BABIP isn't necessariily what you'd expect. A .360 BABIP is sustainable. His strikeouts aren't out of control (25% of his plate apperances).

He is showing some pretty drastic platoon splits though so I could envision an Evans/Davis platoon at that position, possibly as soon as next season.
   114. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:53 AM (#3261202)
Well, this is the first time this year I went to Coney Island, so these are the only two teams I've seen. In terms of pitchers, I liked Brandon Moore on the Cyclones and Matthew Way of the X-cutters, who faced each other on the 15th. The Cyclones hitters (at least the ones that could be considered prospects) all looked pretty bad to me, a couple of slap hitters aside. On the X-cutters, Valle looked the best, even though Hewitt had a huge cheering section (turns out he's from Brooklyn) - whom he rewarded by routinely fumbling grounders hit to him at 3b and looking bad at the plate. Hewitt looked toolsy, and had a very strong arm, but that's about it in my book...
   115. thetailor Posted: July 21, 2009 at 05:56 AM (#3261207)
Primate Cyclones day!?!?

(after the bar exam pls)
   116. Honkie Kong Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:05 AM (#3261209)
BABIP for batters isn't quite the same as that of hitters

I hear BABIP for pitchers is not the same as BABIP for throwers :-)
   117. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:05 AM (#3261210)
[115] Which would probably turn into "beat the crap out of levski day", I fear... ;)
   118. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:08 AM (#3261213)
[115] Which would probably turn into "beat the crap out of levski day", I fear... ;)

I'd go to that.

I hear BABIP for pitchers is not the same as BABIP for throwers :-)

What David Murphy is to leftfield, I am to typing.
   119. BFFB Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:08 AM (#3261214)
I always have suspicions about hitters below AAA putting up decent OBP numbers that are walk heavy simply because the pitchers at the level have pretty damn spotty control.
   120. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:14 AM (#3261219)
[118] Russlan, I'd go to that too. Can't wait to see a bunch of nerds ganging up on a guy in line for some Brooklyn Lager.
   121. Greg Goosen at 30 Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:43 AM (#3261280)
Adam Rubin is right. If this proposal is true, then Riccardi should be fired for making it and Minaya should be fired for turning it down.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2009/07/mets-6-nationals-2-spin-city.html
   122. Bob Koo Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:12 PM (#3261312)
From the story in #121:
At a recent game at Citi Field, scouts had assembled in a row of seats behind home plate. Mets VP Tony Bernazard showed up during play and wanted a seat occupied by a young Diamondbacks scout. Bernazard’s deputy, already seated in the row, suggested to the Mets VP that he wait until the half-inning ended, to minimize the disruption. Bernazard then ripped into his Ivy League-educated deputy with a profanity-laced tirade, mortifying observers in the section.

My goodness, Bernazard needs to go. I've heard way too many bad things about him in the last couple years.
   123. Rusty Priske Posted: July 21, 2009 at 12:45 PM (#3261324)
Anyone who says any prospect is untouchable when they are talking about using him to get Halladay does not understand how good Halladay really is.

The ONLY question about Halladay is whether you think your team will be competitive in the next two years. If the answer is no, stay away. Otherwise, mortgage the farm. He will instantly be your pitching anchor.
   124. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:05 PM (#3261333)
Levski, tell me if you agree, that league is as weak as I can ever remember it.


This seems to be true in a lot of places, probably because of a series of relatively weak drafts recently. The Southern League is as devoid of prospects as I can ever remember (especially hitters), and the Carolina League isn't much different.

-- MWE
   125. Rants Mulliniks Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:20 PM (#3261343)
Late to the party...

"I don't see how Toronto fans can expect to get more than one super prospect, a very good one and a couple of mildly useful players."

If we can't expect more than that for arguably the most valuable (if not, he's top 3) pitcher in the league with a year and a half left on a bargain contract, J.P. had better stay away from the phone. Prospects aren't going to get it done for me, unless we're looking at at least 5 or 6 blue chip position players (preferably infielders and catchers). Toronto has enough pitching.
   126. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:35 PM (#3261354)
If we can't expect more than that for arguably the most valuable (if not, he's top 3) pitcher in the league with a year and a half left on a bargain contract, J.P. had better stay away from the phone. Prospects aren't going to get it done for me, unless we're looking at at least 5 or 6 blue chip position players (preferably infielders and catchers). Toronto has enough pitching.


Very true. As we've seen this year, the Jays have surprising depth in starting pitching prospects - between Marcum, Litsch, Romero, Richmond, Janssen, Cecil, Purcey, Ray, Rzepcynski, Mills, and so on, they can almost certainly cobble together an effective enough rotation for the next couple seasons - especially with the plus defense that they can throw out around the field. What the Jays need is young hitters.

Note: McGowan not listed, as it looks like he's done.
   127. Rants Mulliniks Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:41 PM (#3261359)
McGowan is done? What's the latest?
   128. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:48 PM (#3261367)
Bernazard then ripped into his Ivy League-educated deputy with a profanity-laced tirade, mortifying observers in the section.
You stay classy, Bernazard. And this guy is considered by some to be prime GM material?
Am sure the Newark Bears would listen if he called.
   129. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:49 PM (#3261368)
McGowan is done? What's the latest?

Nothing terribly new. It's just a matter of him already being behind on his rehab schedule, and continuing to fall further behind. Given that he already had Tommy John, he's now had major surgery on his shoulder, and it's been over a year since he even threw a ball competetively, it's getting a bit concerning - especially when combined with this from a couple weeks back:

Dustin McGowan, starter: More than 11 months after shoulder surgery, McGowan "can't get beyond playing catch right now," Ricciardi said. "I don't know when he'll come back." McGowan won 12 games two years ago and was 6-7 when he went down last July.
   130. AstrosFan Posted: July 21, 2009 at 01:53 PM (#3261371)
Adam Rubin is right. If this proposal is true, then Riccardi should be fired for making it and Minaya should be fired for turning it down.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2009/07/mets-6-nationals-2-spin-city.html


Wow- if you haven't read the above article, that's literally his whole argument. Which I guess is to say there isn't one. If you were going to make the argument it pretty much has to be an emotional one. I can't believe there is any way to project WAR's or future playoff odds or net asset values and say this is a good offer for the Mets. If Halladay makes every start he is a 10 WAR player (for the rest of the contract) which is at least what you would expect from Neise over 6 years if he makes absolutely no improvement...and for less money. Oh yeah and even though Halladay will be a 10 WAR player, those first three wins that come this year have absolutely no value to the Mets. Since the Blue Jays won't let teams negotiate before pulling the trigger, I think we can assume Halladay isn't interested in talking until he becomes a FA so we can add two draft picks to the analysis but I'd still rather have F-Mart.

From a playoff odds perspective, I think it comes down to this, do the Mets anticipate being somewhat competitive for at least a year or two from 2010-2015? Compensating for the loss of nearly free talent like Neise and F-Mart might cost them oh 100 million or so on the FA market.
   131. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:02 PM (#3261378)
Bernazard then ripped into his Ivy League-educated deputy with a profanity-laced tirade, mortifying observers in the section.

You stay classy, Bernazard. And this guy is considered by some to be prime GM material?
Am sure the Newark Bears would listen if he called.


If he started his tirade out with "Hey Mr. Princeton" or something, I'd give him a pass.
   132. Win one for Agrippa (haplo53) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:08 PM (#3261381)
If he started his tirade out with "Hey Mr. Princeton" or something, I'd give him a pass.


Heh.
   133. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:12 PM (#3261388)
If he started his tirade out with "Hey Mr. Princeton" or something, I'd give him a pass.

"And that over there is Harvard."
"Uh, that's just a barn."
"Well, looks like someone went to Yale."
   134. Maxwn Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:17 PM (#3261398)
I can't believe there is any way to project WAR's or future playoff odds or net asset values and say this is a good offer for the Mets. If Halladay makes every start he is a 10 WAR player (for the rest of the contract) which is at least what you would expect from Neise over 6 years if he makes absolutely no improvement...and for less money. Oh yeah and even though Halladay will be a 10 WAR player, those first three wins that come this year have absolutely no value to the Mets.


Not that I care about the Mets or any of their prospects, but this is just wrong. First, 10 WAR over a year and a half is worth much more than 10 WAR spread over six years. Secondly, even though the Mets are almost certainly out of it this year, those wins still have value to them. There is a difference in the attendance they will see over the rest of the year if they claw their way back towards .500 instead continuing their death spiral. A fan may not value any wins in a season that is not a playoff season, but those wins have real value to an actual baseball team, and Halladay's trade value will reflect that.
   135. Bob Koo Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:20 PM (#3261403)
Oh, and can someone please tell Jerry to stop bunting in the first inning with your second-best OBP guy? That's three straight games in which he's done it, and Pagan only finally scored last night.

I really thought Manuel was a pretty good in-game manager last year. This year, he's been a total disaster.
   136. zack Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:26 PM (#3261410)
A) This is a joke of a proposal, as has been mentioned.

B) If I'm the Mets, I still don't do it without a contract window. If it is true that no one will get to talk to Halladay, then the take isn't going to be that great.

C) Ruben Tejada is not a prospect, walks in AA don't mean much and he strikes out waaaaaay too much to be Luis Castillo. He's young, yes.
   137. HGH Positive Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:30 PM (#3261419)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=tejada001rub

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=escoba001alc

Am I missing something? I see Tejada having a much better line at 19 in AA vs A+. Almost 100 more OPS+ and better BB:K ratio. All reports on Tejada have him with an excellent glove and great speed. There's a big difference in steals, but the biggest thing for Tejada is how well he adds weight in the next two years. Saying he's not a prospect is a bit of a stretch.
   138. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:32 PM (#3261422)
Heyman should be pretty embarrassed right now.
   139. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:36 PM (#3261428)
If it is true that no one will get to talk to Halladay, then the take isn't going to be that great.


May I ask a really naive question. Why would the Jays refuse to allow a window for negotiations. As is stated above, that hurts how much Toronto can get back in return. This happens a lot, so I know there are good reasons for it but I'm an idiot.
   140. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:40 PM (#3261435)
This happens a lot, so I know there are good reasons for it but I'm an idiot.


Assuming that it's true, I'm guessing it's PR reasons - it'd look really bad for Toronto if they trade Halladay, and then he immediately signs an extremely reasonable extension that the Jays should have been able to afford. Also, trading him without allowing extension talks gives Jays fans the (false) hope that he'll return here once he hits free agency.

That's the best I can come up with.
   141. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:44 PM (#3261436)
I assume it's a negotiating ploy. If you say you won't give a window, then the other teams have to bid more to get a window.
   142. PreservedFish Posted: July 21, 2009 at 02:54 PM (#3261446)
Let's put it this way ... in a better system nobody would have ever heard of Tejada.

29 walks in 320 ABs is nice but it isn't something for a prospect to hang his hat on. And Jackie Rexrode agrees.
   143. zack Posted: July 21, 2009 at 03:40 PM (#3261488)

Am I missing something? I see Tejada having a much better line at 19 in AA vs A+. Almost 100 more OPS+ and better BB:K ratio. All reports on Tejada have him with an excellent glove and great speed. There's a big difference in steals, but the biggest thing for Tejada is how well he adds weight in the next two years. Saying he's not a prospect is a bit of a stretch.


This is what Sickles said about the two this winter:

2) Alcides Escobar, SS, Grade B: Should I go with B+ here? Defense is excellent and made huge progress with hitting, though I want to see another good year with the bat.

16) Ruben Tejada, SS, Grade C+: Gets slack on the grade because he was massively rushed to the Florida State League. Controls the strike zone, has promise with the glove, very young.

Escobar is a prospect almost entirely because of the glove, which is reportedly amazing. I haven't heard much at all about Tejada's glove, but I was under the impression it was average. If he is fast, then it doesn't show in the numbers at all. Knowing how to walk is great, but walk rates in the minors are not especially predictive given the quality of pitchers faced, and you need to be able to do something with the balls that are strikes.
   144. RollingWave Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:02 PM (#3261510)
If we can't expect more than that for arguably the most valuable (if not, he's top 3) pitcher in the league with a year and a half left on a bargain contract, J.P. had better stay away from the phone. Prospects aren't going to get it done for me, unless we're looking at at least 5 or 6 blue chip position players (preferably infielders and catchers). Toronto has enough pitching.
I think you will be disappointed then. He is a great player. but he is just one player. and making 15M at that.

Looking at fangraphs and beyondtheboxscore's calculation. the Jays should probably expect along the lines of one top prospect + some lottery tickets or one young player with serious potential and some similar tickets (i.e guys in the lower minors that might have some upsides but also significant question marks) or some quantity package (that seems less likely)

Some trades have been dramatic overpays. Eric Bedard and Mark Teixiera ( to the braves) are probably the two most obvious .

In the end, a GM can not get too caught up over the value of one player. unless he's Bonds / Ruth / William . prospect may or may not pan out. but a panned out prospect is generally worth a lot more than a vet. even a very good one. because your holding him at a primiuem. and the difference in money can be used to... you know, actually sign other players.
   145. JJ1986 Posted: July 21, 2009 at 04:08 PM (#3261517)
Wouldn't the Phillies be the party most likely to feed Heyman the information? The Blue Jays wouldn't want to drive the price down, but neither would the Mets, since they aren't going to trade for him.
   146. billyshears Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:16 PM (#3261659)
If the Mets were 50-42 and not missing 7 of the 8 best players to injury, of course they should make this deal. But they are 44 - 48 and half their team is dead. There's a 95% chance that this season is toast. They're not in any position to deal for Halladay right now. Unless of course, they want to engage in a bit of arbitrage, make the deal and then trade Halladay to the Yankees or Red Sox, who the Jays may be excluding from the process.
   147. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:21 PM (#3261668)
Mets VP Tony Bernazard showed up during play and wanted a seat occupied by a young Diamondbacks scout.

Could this have been the Carlos formerly known as ChadBradfordWannabe?
   148. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:28 PM (#3261675)
Looking at fangraphs and beyondtheboxscore's calculation. the Jays should probably expect along the lines of one top prospect + some lottery tickets or one young player with serious potential and some similar tickets


Which they can essentially get by waiting until next year, and taking the draft picks from arbitration, which also gives them the benefit of another year and a half of Halladay (in terms of both on-field and PR benefits). If a team wants to get Halladay, they're going to have to beat what the Jays would get from keeping him for the next 18 months. One top prospect and some lottery tickets doesn't do that.
   149. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:43 PM (#3261697)

Could this have been the Carlos formerly known as ChadBradfordWannabe?
I don't think he covers the Mets, but you never know.
   150. puck Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:44 PM (#3261698)
Could this have been the Carlos formerly known as ChadBradfordWannabe


Get out of my ####### seat, you ####### blogger!
   151. 1k5v3L Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:49 PM (#3261703)
[150] Never mind. Not funny
   152. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:55 PM (#3261711)
16) Ruben Tejada, SS, Grade C+: Gets slack on the grade because he was massively rushed to the Florida State League. Controls the strike zone, has promise with the glove, very young.

That C+ grade was after a miserable season in A-ball. Tejada is doing better despite being promoted a level. That probably makes him a B- or B prospect in Sickels' eye. And I don't think anyone, even his biggest supporters, are saying anything different.
   153. BFFB Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:56 PM (#3261712)
that's a banning
   154. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2009 at 06:59 PM (#3261718)
I don't think he covers the Mets, but you never know.

Good point, I forgot they probably have regions.


Or was it, ¡Salga de mi asiento del #######, usted blogger del #######!

Levski, this is what I get for actually defending you? More thorns in more eyes? You're worthless. And ignored. Bye.
   155. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 07:12 PM (#3261731)
[150] Never mind. Not funny

That's never stopped you before.

Levski, this is what I get for actually defending you? More thorns in more eyes? You're worthless. And ignored. Bye.

If Lassus, probably the nicest Met BTFer, is mad at you, you probably need to change your behaviour.
   156. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2009 at 07:24 PM (#3261748)
Now that Russlan has given me credit for my temperament, I realize I need to be equal. Or maybe it was just being shamed by the eminently proper British/Canadian spellings. Regardless, I have to say "worthless" was not particularly a good thing to say, and I apologize.
   157. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 07:31 PM (#3261754)
If Lassus, probably the nicest Met BTFer, is mad at you, you probably need to change your behaviour.


HEY!
   158. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: July 21, 2009 at 07:52 PM (#3261787)
MFC, you're a good guy but how many Met BTFers would go out of their way to defend Levski? Heck, I consider myself to be an amicable fellow and I said earlier in this thread that I would attend a Beat The Crap Out Of Levski Day.
   159. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3261791)
I would attend a Beat The Crap Out Of Levski Day.


Proof that not everything I see on BTF is a snark?
   160. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:12 PM (#3261814)
"Bernazard then ripped into his Ivy League-educated deputy with a profanity-laced tirade..."

Yes, but was it in street Spanish?
   161. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:15 PM (#3261819)
Heh, also from the article: "Meanwhile, it was a refreshingly light atmosphere in the visitors’ clubhouse after the Mets beat the Nationals, 6-2. Michael Jackson classics blared over a speaker."

Bringing in a wife-beater was only the first step - now they're embracing a pedophile, too.
   162. Swedish Chef Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3261824)
I don't get it, Levski has made some bad jokes but at no point in this discussion or the earlier one has he gotten nasty or personal against any poster. What is there to get so aggro about?

Have you ever seen any of the steroid flame wars? (Of course you have, that was a retorical question...)
   163. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:21 PM (#3261828)
I have the sense that a post got deleted.
   164. RJ in TO Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:24 PM (#3261834)
I don't get it, Levski has made some bad jokes but at no point in this discussion or the earlier one has he gotten nasty or personal against any poster. What is there to get so aggro about?


It was probably over post 151, which apparently used to contain this:

Or was it, ¡Salga de mi asiento del #######, usted blogger del #######!

Not speaking Spanish, I don't know what it means, but I'm guessing it's not terribly nice.
   165.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3261837)
It seems like he took post 150 and translated it into Spanish. Oh...kay...
   166. Swedish Chef Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3261838)
I have the sense that a post got deleted.

Yes, I saw that, and it's probably just the Babelfish translation of the previous post. Just like last time. Stupid, but so what?
   167. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2009 at 08:27 PM (#3261839)
It wasn't that specific post, it was nerds like me referencing it back to a previous bit of kerfuffle.

He erased it, so I feel bad now that I quoted it. I've had that happen to me when I've thought better of it 3 minutes too late.
   168. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 09:24 PM (#3261913)

Yes, but was it in street Spanish?


So hard to execute a profanity-laced tirade in classical Castillian.
   169. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 09:26 PM (#3261914)

I don't get it, Levski has made some bad jokes but at no point in this discussion or the earlier one has he gotten nasty or personal against any poster. What is there to get so aggro about?


Our friend thinks it's funny to imitate Spanish-speaking people.
   170. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: July 21, 2009 at 09:52 PM (#3261939)
Our friend thinks it's funny to imitate Spanish-speaking people.

Que malo. Once again I must sugar my own churro.
   171. Freeballin' (Tales of Met Power) Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:02 PM (#3261948)

Que malo. Once again I must sugar my own churro.


Maybe you guys can run off and sugar each others churros.
   172. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:10 PM (#3261956)
I mostly lurk here, but feel compelled to comment - I'm surprised that more of you don't find this Spanish business bigoted. Since when is it ok to mock somebody because they speak Spanish?

Is it that hard to understand why a Latino person is offended by this behavior?
   173. BFFB Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:14 PM (#3261960)
   174. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:19 PM (#3261966)
edit - never mind
   175. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:26 PM (#3261973)
It isn't so much that it isn't seen as bigoted I think as that the poster - Levski - simply has a long long long history of annoying the Mets fans. He's been known here a long time for that, well, more than anything else. His primary priority was indeed that and it probably just didn't connect as to how it might be a little more specifically thoughtless and possibly bigoted. A good portion of the crowd saw the former as the weight of the comment rather than the latter. That being said, it wasn't a good thing to say, and I would understand and have no issue at all with Not Amused's reaction.

I PERSONALLY think that a dialogue over email - as opposed to an internet board - between Not Amused and Levski would probably be beneficial, but that's up to them.

Beyond that, the thoughts of the peanut gallery - myself included - are their own, and valid in varying degrees, I guess.
   176. JPWF13 Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:31 PM (#3261977)
I mostly lurk here, but feel compelled to comment - I'm surprised that more of you don't find this Spanish business bigoted. Since when is it ok to mock somebody because they speak Spanish?

Is it that hard to understand why a Latino person is offended by this behavior?


Hey not amused has an ally...

Seriously it started when Levski botched translating a Monty Python skit into a NY Mets baseball context...
and now it has taken on a weird life of its own - and I'm starting to think that Not Amused may have had a point afterall (of course had he wisely ignored Levski it wouldn't have happened)
   177. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 21, 2009 at 10:45 PM (#3261986)
I don't think it's the botching of the Spanish, correct me if I'm wrong Not Amused, but the fact that he used Spanish to imitate somebody, when Spanish had nothing to do with what was being discussed. It's like interjecting any other person's race or ethnicity or religion or whatever, when it has no relevance to anything.
   178. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 22, 2009 at 11:35 AM (#3262457)
But the joke, such as it is, is that Bernazard can't actually speak proper Spanish. That he speaks Spanish like a bad Babelfish translation. It wouldn't be any less funny if he were Caucasian, or Japanese, or whatever, and known for speaking Spanish equally badly.
   179. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 22, 2009 at 02:56 PM (#3262707)
MFC, you're a good guy but how many Met BTFers would go out of their way to defend Levski? Heck, I consider myself to be an amicable fellow and I said earlier in this thread that I would attend a Beat The Crap Out Of Levski Day.


Well, so would I, so ya got me, there...

So what does Levski do if Bernzard & Omar BOTH get canned? And what if they're replaced by the likes of Krivsky or DePo? The mind boggles...
   180. SoSH U at work Posted: July 22, 2009 at 03:02 PM (#3262713)
So what does Levski do if Bernzard & Omar BOTH get canned? And what if they're replaced by the likes of Krivsky or DePo? The mind boggles...


I'm pretty sure he would find new ways to annoy Mets fans.
   181. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 22, 2009 at 03:08 PM (#3262723)
What a terrible thread.
   182. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: July 22, 2009 at 03:51 PM (#3262777)
OT, but this voice needs to be heard in the wilderness...
   183. JPWF13 Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:01 PM (#3262788)
So what does Levski do if Bernzard & Omar BOTH get canned? And what if they're replaced by the likes of Krivsky or DePo? The mind boggles...


Or better yet, the Mets and DBacks swap GMs...
   184. 1k5v3L Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:14 PM (#3262812)
[169] I'm not your friend.
[178] I owe you an alcoholic beverage of your choice.
[180] "So, what do you think, Jackie, have we got a case?" "Like taking candy from a baby!"
   185. 1k5v3L Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:15 PM (#3262815)
Or better yet, the Mets and DBacks swap GMs...
Well, the Mets could use more cowbell...
   186. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:29 PM (#3262846)
But the joke, such as it is, is that Bernazard can't actually speak proper Spanish. That he speaks Spanish like a bad Babelfish translation. It wouldn't be any less funny if he were Caucasian, or Japanese, or whatever, and known for speaking Spanish equally badly.


I doubt that was the joke. Looks to me like our friend went to Babelfish to get some Spanish, and Babelfish mistook "just" as in "only" for "just" as in "right."

And I don't know what you think "Street Spanish" is, but it assuredly is not that.
   187. 1k5v3L Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:38 PM (#3262871)
Looks to me like our friend went to Babelfish to get some Spanish, and Babelfish mistook "just" as in "only" for "just" as in "right."
Wow, you really got me pegged there.
   188. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:46 PM (#3262881)
You've got problems.
   189. twon8 Posted: July 22, 2009 at 04:55 PM (#3262891)
I may be wrong, but isn't the line "Tis but a flesh wound"?

Unless I'm misremembering, accurate quoting would have avoided this whole kerfuffle.
   190. JPWF13 Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:02 PM (#3262902)
I doubt that was the joke. Looks to me like our friend went to Babelfish to get some Spanish, and Babelfish mistook "just" as in "only" for "just" as in "right."


I don't know, I went to Babelfish put in "it is just a flesh wound" and got":

" es apenas un wound" de la carne;


if you put in "it is only a flesh wound" you get:

es solamente una herida de carne
from babelfish

Google translates it as:

es sólo una herida superficial


which IS accurate, but you lose the connection to the Monty Python joke...
   191. JPWF13 Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:04 PM (#3262906)
Unless I'm misremembering, accurate quoting would have avoided this whole kerfuffle.


Actually we need to know how that line was dubbed into the spanish language version of the movie for the joke to work
   192. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:09 PM (#3262927)
[190] Interesting - so his claim that he got the translation from Babelfish is false. Not sure which way that cuts.
   193.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:14 PM (#3262942)
Sometimes it is impossible to know where BBTF threads are going to go.

Roy Halladay --> Butchered spanish translations of Monty Python. Of course!
   194. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:33 PM (#3262984)
[190] Interesting - so his claim that he got the translation from Babelfish is false.


levski made a joke that you found offensive. We get it.

He claims it was a Monty Python / Carlos Delgado free agency reference. You claim it was blatant racism. We get it.

We get it.

Continuing this Woodward & Bernstein act into the deep dark motives of one of the 1,000 off the cuff attempts at humour on this site will only spawn more the same.
   195. Kyle S at work Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:35 PM (#3262990)
So you guys are telling me that Babelfish doesn't actually translate into street Spanish? Que avergonzado estoy!
   196. Banta Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:46 PM (#3263017)
I think they're saying Babelfish is racist. But I'm not really reading at this point.

Which makes this post just as worthless as the rest! Wheee!
   197. Banta Posted: July 22, 2009 at 05:48 PM (#3263021)
By the way, LASSUS is the nicest Mets BTFer? I'm ####### nice. I'm so ####### nice you'd have to be a ####### idiot to think otherwise.
   198. BFFB Posted: July 22, 2009 at 06:19 PM (#3263092)
[196] the babelfish is a blatant earist, the bastard
   199. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 22, 2009 at 08:00 PM (#3263319)
[194] At what point do you realize what we're discussing in this thread and stop checking in and getting annoyed over and over and over? Seems like you'd have to be, I don't know, a raging imbecile? No offense intended to imbeciles.
   200. Baseball Analyst Posted: July 22, 2009 at 08:02 PM (#3263324)

So you guys are telling me that Babelfish doesn't actually translate into street Spanish? Que avergonzado estoy!


For the love of El Es Aqui, it is not "Street Spanish" for some gringo half wit to accidentally use the cognate of "just" as in "right and fair" when he meant to translate "just" as in "only [a flesh wound]."
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