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Monday, May 21, 2012

NYDN: 60,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews fill Citi Field and Arthur Ashe Stadium to denounce evils of the Internet

No word if any of the speakers gave a brucha on behalf of Ike Davis’ bat. Also not sure if the Shake Shack sold many fruit plates.

A mass rally for men only drew more than 40,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews to Citi Field Sunday to denounce the Internet and its pervasive impact on family life.

An overflow crowd of another 20,000 bearded men sporting long black coats and big black hats filled nearby Arthur Ashe Stadium for the unprecedented attack on modern technology.

Unable to enter the Queens stadiums because of the strict separation of the sexes enforced by the organizers, more than 15,000 Hasidic women watched the speeches at six sites across the tristate area — thanks to live-streaming on the Internet.

The rally was organized by a little-known rabbinical group called Ichud Hakehillos L’tohar Hamachane — the Union of Communities for the Purity of the Camp — to spread the word that online activities can lead to porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality.

But Eytan Kobre, who runs a Jewish family weekly magazine in Brooklyn and serves as the group’s spokesman, insists it is not calling for a ban on Internet use, but wants to use filters to manage it.

 

JE (Jason) Posted: May 21, 2012 at 03:27 PM | 72 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, stadiums

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   1. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: May 22, 2012 at 02:04 AM (#4137528)
So they denounced the evils of the internet and streamed it on the internet?
   2. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: May 22, 2012 at 02:18 AM (#4137530)
to spread the word that online activities can lead to porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality.

Really??? Where on this "internet" can I find porn and other acts of immorality? I had no idea.
   3. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 22, 2012 at 02:22 AM (#4137531)
This does not seem to be baseball-related.
   4. PreservedFish Posted: May 22, 2012 at 02:24 AM (#4137532)
The NY Times noted the irony of everyone on the 7 train whipping out their mobile phones as soon as they emerged from the tunnel.
   5. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: May 22, 2012 at 05:06 AM (#4137541)
YOU ARE ALL GOING TO HELL!
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:46 AM (#4137551)

"This does not seem to be baseball-related."

Citi
Field

voila!


   7. Downtown Bookie Posted: May 22, 2012 at 07:20 AM (#4137553)
The rally was organized by a little-known rabbinical group called Ichud Hakehillos L’tohar Hamachane — the Union of Communities for the Purity of the Camp — to spread the word that online activities can lead to porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality.

But Eytan Kobre, who runs a Jewish family weekly magazine in Brooklyn and serves as the group’s spokesman, insists it is not calling for a ban on Internet use, but wants to use filters to manage it.


Couldn't decide which way I wanted to go on this:

1) Yes, because, Lord knows, there was no porn, child abuse, and other acts of immorality pre-internet;

OR

2) If we're going to start filtering porn, child abuse, and other acts of immorality out of the media, the good rabbis should be aware of this book that I have a passing familiarity with; a book where, ironically enough, nearly all the main characters are Jewish.

Snark (mostly) aside, it amazes me how people can so casually call for censorship (be it internet, movies, TV, comic books, etc.) without foreseeing the probability that, if the censorship they call for comes, it won't just be "immoral acts" that get censored.

DB
   8. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:27 AM (#4137563)
Did they use the internet to organize this rally?
   9. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4137572)
Also, it's an urban legend that the large banners that were unfurled at the event have little holes in them.
   10. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:09 AM (#4137578)
These ultra Orthodox Jews are an embarrassment to humanity.
   11. zonk Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:37 AM (#4137601)
First they came for the Deadspinners and I did not speak out because Deadspin sucks,
Then they came for the Facebookers and I did not speak out because Facebook is for Kardashian-obsessed women,
Then they came for the Primates and were turned back by a wall of Pavement
   12. Morty Causa Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:42 AM (#4137603)
The South shall come again!
   13. JE (Jason) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4137604)
These ultra Orthodox Jews are an embarrassment to humanity.

Speak for yourself. Unlike the rest of us, they got into Citi Field for free.
   14. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:48 AM (#4137607)
Speak for yourself. Unlike the rest of us, they got into Citi Field for free.

And unlike the rest of you, they didn't have to watch the Mets.
   15. Lassus Posted: May 22, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4137619)
And unlike the rest of you, they didn't have to watch the Mets.
You're one to talk, at least we're over .500.
   16. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4137632)
to spread the word that online activities can lead to porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality.


I thought the gateway drug was weed.
   17. zonk Posted: May 22, 2012 at 10:36 AM (#4137642)

I thought the gateway drug was weed.


Only when laced with internet.
   18. phredbird Posted: May 22, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4137735)
YOU ARE ALL GOING TO HELL!


wait, i thought jews didn't believe in an afterlife.
   19. zenbitz Posted: May 22, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4137768)
Yes, all those women with their hair showing.
   20. Srul Itza Posted: May 22, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4137783)
wait, i thought jews didn't believe in an afterlife.


Seriously, this is what you understood?

In any event, how is it that 20 comments into a thread about the ultra-orthodox asserting that they are concerned about "porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality", there is no mention of the fact that this same community is covering up these crimes and protecting the perpetrators, as reported in the Times?
   21. Hack Wilson Posted: May 22, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4137788)
Hopefully a few hundred Jews for Jesus were passing out literature around the stadium.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: May 22, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4137790)
In any event, how is it that 20 comments into a thread about the ultra-orthodox asserting that they are concerned about "porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality", there is no mention of the fact that this same community is covering up these crimes and protecting the perpetrators, as reported in the Times?


The concern is the internet is horning in on its action?
   23. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4137791)
#20, I clicked on the thread to post the exact same thing. As a non-Orthodox Jew myself, I would say these folks need to get their own house in order before telling the rest of us how to run ours.
   24. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: May 22, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4137849)
In any event, how is it that 20 comments into a thread about the ultra-orthodox asserting that they are concerned about "porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality", there is no mention of the fact that this same community is covering up these crimes and protecting the perpetrators, as reported in the Times?


Dude, you can't hold people responsible for their own actions! It's the internet's fault, aren't you paying attention!
   25. Dan The Mediocre Posted: May 22, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4137855)
In any event, how is it that 20 comments into a thread about the ultra-orthodox asserting that they are concerned about "porn, child abuse and other acts of immorality", there is no mention of the fact that this same community is covering up these crimes and protecting the perpetrators, as reported in the Times?


My first thought on seeing this was "maybe they are against the internet because that's how we know that they've been covering up crimes related to those things".
   26. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4137920)
Hopefully a few hundred Jews for Jesus were passing out literature around the stadium.


Reminding me of the great submitted headline that wasn't allowed to run in the paper here for an article on those guys --

Choosy Jews choose Jesus
   27. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 22, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4137921)
This does not seem to be baseball-related.


I found out about this event from a RedSox fan co-worker, "Hey they finally sold out Citifield this year!"

   28. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4137943)
Not surprisingly, the folks who organized this own a company that provides internet filtering services.
   29. Big fan Posted: May 22, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4138007)
OK I am orthodox so take this with a grain of salt.

To Never Given an Inge - NO ONE is telling YOU what to do. This was an event by the orthos for the orthos, and of course the vast majority of the orthos (myself included) paid no attention. I just assume they are talking to the hasidics, who are like the Amish. If they can live their lives without electricity good for them. It has nothing to do with me and even less to do with you.

To Weekly Journalist - I am sure you will tell me that some of your best friends are jewish or even orthos, but your hatred is clear and it doesn't make you sound intelligent. By and large this group has lower drug rates and divorce rates than the world at large. The non-hasid orthos have higher college graduation rates than the rest of the US. They get an unusually high percentage of call outs any time some magazine does a top-doctor list. Maybe that is what you mean by saying the are embarrassment to humanity; the rest of humanity ought to be embarrassed.

To Phrebird - OUCH, Your complete lack of knowledge is astounding. You can are certainly free to remain uninformed, but with this new tool called the 'internets' within a few clicks you can learn things so you don't come off sounding stupid.

My rant is over. Now gettign back to baseball - the yankees really stink.
   30. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4138038)
This was an event by the orthos for the orthos


Is this just internet shorthand, or do these people actually like to be known as a brand of insecticide?
   31. Srul Itza Posted: May 22, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4138042)
To Weekly Journalist - I am sure you will tell me that some of your best friends are jewish or even orthos, but your hatred is clear and it doesn't make you sound intelligent.


Weekly Journalist actually claims to be Jewish. From what I've read by him, it is an ultra-liberal, completely assimilated, very weak tea kind of Judaism, but to each their own. Since I'm essentially an atheistic, secular Jew, who am I to talk.

However, there is orthodox, and there is ultra-orthodox. I went to Law School with orthodox, and they were very devout, but otherwise mainstream. Now, I was never the kind of guy to drive through New Square on a Saturday, but the ultra-orthodox, like the Hasidim, live apart, and their actions with regard to the child abuse scandal are completely inexcusable.

As to phredbird -- well, he has no excuse. Then again, he is a Cardinals fan, so he would probably already be going to Hell, if there was one.
   32. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4138063)

However, there is orthodox, and there is ultra-orthodox. I went to Law School with orthodox, and they were very devout, but otherwise mainstream.

Yes, of course, this. My mom was raised Orthodox, I have pretty close college friends and co-workers who are Orthodox Jews, and there's a big difference between them and the Hasids.
   33. Flynn Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4138079)
To Weekly Journalist - I am sure you will tell me that some of your best friends are jewish or even orthos, but your hatred is clear and it doesn't make you sound intelligent. By and large this group has lower drug rates and divorce rates than the world at large. The non-hasid orthos have higher college graduation rates than the rest of the US. They get an unusually high percentage of call outs any time some magazine does a top-doctor list. Maybe that is what you mean by saying the are embarrassment to humanity; the rest of humanity ought to be embarrassed.


Isn't this basically irrelevant, since WJ was talking about ultra-Orthodox Jews? I, as a goy, immediately understood the phrase ultra-Orthodox to mean Hasidim and Lubavitcher-type Jews, who are two sects named in the Times article as obstructing justice for child molesters in their communities.

I suppose you can attack him for painting with a broad brush, but then who is subtle?
   34. phredbird Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:35 PM (#4138083)
er, my apologies.

i know this is going to make me sound worse, but: i've been pals with jews all my life; also, i almost married a nice jewish girl. somehow, we never got into metaphysical discussions. i must have heard someone say something to that effect once - no afterlife - and never bothered to think much about it. intuitively, i think i knew that jews have a different idea of what happens to you after you die, and just assumed that's what they meant.

i did do a few clicks as recommended above, and see that there is much confusion among gentiles about the jewish conception about the afterlife.

if i can further elucidate. as a buddhist-minded unwashed pagan, i also don't think much about the afterlife, or even if there is one. the only thing one really has to do to be a buddhist is to accept the four noble truths and the eightfold path. relief of suffering is the focus of buddhism, and metaphysical discussions are not really a big concern of buddhism.

again, my apologies and i won't make that mistake again.
   35. JE (Jason) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4138084)
As to phredbird -- well, he has no excuse. Then again, he is a Cardinals fan, so he would probably already be going to Hell, if there was one.

Since the Cardinals always get the luckiest breaks, I would expect St. Louis fans who end up in Hell are given an unlimited supply of SPF45.
   36. Tim McCarver's Orange Marmalade Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4138086)
Unable to enter the Queens stadiums because of the strict separation of the sexes enforced by the organizers, more than 15,000 Hasidic women watched the speeches at six sites across the tristate area — thanks to live-streaming on the Internet.


Well alrighty then.
   37. Swedish Chef Posted: May 22, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4138092)
The Verge had a pretty nifty feature on the rally.
   38. Big fan Posted: May 22, 2012 at 07:53 PM (#4138140)
Me again. Not sure how to define ultra-orthodox versus orthodox. I wear a skullcap; I only eat kosher food; I don't work or surf the web on Saturday. I have a filter on my kids computer so they don't spend their time studying porn and my sons and daughters go to separate gender schools. . Am I ultra? Or by the fact that I went to college, work for a major ins co for a living, surf the web 6 days a week, and hate child molesters (and would RUN to the police if I even thought anything was going on anywhere) make me just regular orthodox?

Of course in my view anyone to the right of me is ultra; anyone to the left of me is a 'goy'. (bad joke)

And just for the record, the one about the banners with the holes in it made me laugh.



   39. Dan The Mediocre Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4138182)
Me again. Not sure how to define ultra-orthodox versus orthodox. I wear a skullcap; I only eat kosher food; I don't work or surf the web on Saturday. I have a filter on my kids computer so they don't spend their time studying porn and my sons and daughters go to separate gender schools. . Am I ultra?


First question: Would you throw rocks at a firetruck that's operating on a Saturday? If not, there's a very good chance you wouldn't be put in the ultra-orthodox category.
   40. PerroX Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4138183)
again, my apologies and i won't make that mistake again.


You're no fun.

   41. PerroX Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4138185)
If you wasted this life, why wouldn't you waste the afterlife?
   42. Big fan Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4138194)
Dan the Med - maybe that is how we define it. Take any orthodox jew, add any one of a hundred disgusting things someone might do, and if they do that we call them Ultra! Public nose picking? Littering? sneezing without covering your nose and mouth? Not saying good morning? ULTRA!

Have you actaully ever seen anyone throw a rock at a car driving on Saturday?
   43. zenbitz Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4138197)
@37 that is a surprisingly good article, and paints a reasonable picture. I guess what it comes down to is that "some ideas and images are poison". They will ruin attempts to lead a devout life. You see this in fanatics of all kinds, and I cannot understand this mentality. If you don't like the internet - or some of the internet - don't use it/look at it/read it. And it's not like the UOs here are trying to ban the internet for goyim, so I can't really be very upset.

   44. Dan The Mediocre Posted: May 22, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4138202)
Dan the Med - maybe that is how we define it. Take any orthodox jew, add any one of a hundred disgusting things someone might do, and if they do that we call them Ultra! Public nose picking? Littering? sneezing without covering your nose and mouth? Not saying good morning? ULTRA!


I think violence against those who don't observe your religion is a bit different than anything you list.

Have you actaully ever seen anyone throw a rock at a car driving on Saturday?


Nope, all I have are news reports about that.
   45. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4138236)
Big Fan;


To Weekly Journalist - I am sure you will tell me that some of your best friends are jewish or even orthos, but your hatred is clear and it doesn't make you sound intelligent.

It's better than that. I AM Jewish. Attended school at Joseph Kusher Academy in New Jersey. Raised in a pretty mainstreatm Conservative synagogue. Bar Mitzvahed October, 1993, a few days before Joe Carter's homer. Parshat Lech Lecha. And yes, indeed, most of my best friends growing up as a child were Orthodox Jews and my very best friend from early childhood is an officer in the Israeli army.

By and large this group has lower drug rates and divorce rates than the world at large. The non-hasid orthos have higher college graduation rates than the rest of the US.

Let's be clear. I'm not talking about mainline Orthodox Jews. I'm talking about the ultra orthodox, the Haredi, and their ilk, who wouldn't even consider me or even most mainstream Orthodox as real Jews. These are the same fanatics who hate women and pretty much all minorities and non Jews and who spit on Christians at the Western Wall.

They get an unusually high percentage of call outs any time some magazine does a top-doctor list. Maybe that is what you mean by saying the are embarrassment to humanity; the rest of humanity ought to be embarrassed.

See above. I love those dudes. I hate shmucks like this asshat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaakov_Litzman

For the record, I also have nothing by comtempt for Radical muslims, the current hierarchy of the Catholic church, and Evangelical Christians.
   46. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:16 PM (#4138240)
NO ONE is telling YOU what to do. This was an event by the orthos for the orthos,

Also, part of the problem with the Israeli Haredi and United Torah Judaism and their type is that they are indeed trying to tell everyone else what to do in Israel. They are driving Israel into utter destruction.

I guess I don't really care about the ultra Orthodox in this country as long as they stop harboring child molesters.
   47. Srul Itza Posted: May 22, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4138299)
Me again. Not sure how to define ultra-orthodox versus orthodox.


Do you ever shave?

Will you sit next to a woman not your relative?
   48. JE (Jason) Posted: May 22, 2012 at 10:45 PM (#4138316)
Let's be clear. I'm not talking about mainline Orthodox Jews. I'm talking about the ultra orthodox, the Haredi, and their ilk, who wouldn't even consider me or even most mainstream Orthodox as real Jews.

Sure, a Hasid probably thinks you are not living your life according to Jewish law but why would he think you're not really Jewish? (FWIW, I live a mostly secular lifestyle, but when I do go to shul on the occasional Friday night and on major holidays, I attend the local Chabad and treated with nothing but respect.)
   49. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: May 23, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4138368)
And just for the record, the one about the banners with the holes in it made me laugh.

I can also report that for one night only, Citi Field maintained two separate home plates.
   50. Tuque Posted: May 23, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4138371)
I didn't even know there were extremist Jews. I thought Judaism was all about being really indecisive, and talking about how you shouldn't eat pork but you really love bacon.
   51. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: May 23, 2012 at 07:08 AM (#4138398)
I had a shotgun Bar Mitzvah. I'm a Jew, damnit.
   52. Big fan Posted: May 23, 2012 at 08:48 AM (#4138419)
{47} Yes I shave and I ride the subway so I sit next to women. On the other hand I have never kissed a woman other than my wife (and mother) - so that makes me an extremist, right?

I am with JE here - have any of you gone to an ultra-ortho synagogue and been teated badly? have any of you actually been spat on? have rocks thrown at your car? or are you taking the acts of a (very) few and applying it to the many?

I thought I read that Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy were atheists - if so, can I assume all atheists are murderers and worse? and since Son of Sam was an irreligious jew as was Bernie Madoff I guess that means that irreligious jews are horrible people. Yes taking extreme examples is a strawman; in my 5 decades of travel around the ortho and ultra-ortho worlds I've never met the ugly people some have described.

For all I know I've met child molestors though; I have no idea. But for that mess I blame the Brooklyn DA, who seems more worried about reelection than the law.

Meanwhile, Texiera still stinks.
   53. JE (Jason) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 08:59 AM (#4138425)
I agree with Big fan about Teixeira.

There is one more thing I discovered from interacting with the Hasidim over the years: They are far more likely to have serious differences of opinion with other Hasidic sects than less observant Jews, with whom they have little interaction.
   54. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: May 23, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4138445)
There is one more thing I discovered from interacting with the Hasidim over the years: They are far more likely to have serious differences of opinion with other Hasidic sects than less observant Jews, with whom they have little interaction.

Sounds like another cult that used to be in the news in the late 60's:

In the summer of 1969, the ninth SDS national convention was held at the Chicago Coliseum with some 2000 people attending. Many factions of the movement were present, and set up their literature tables all around the edges of the cavernous hall. The Young Socialist Alliance, Wobblies, Spartacists, Marxists and Maoists of various sorts, all together with various law-enforcement spies and informers contributed to the air of impending expectations.

Each delegate was given the convention issue of the newspaper New Left Notes, which contained a manifesto, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows", a line taken from Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues. This manifesto had been first presented at the Spring, 1969, SDS National Council Meeting in Austin, Texas. The document had been written by an 11-member committee that included Mark Rudd, Bernardine Dohrn and John Jacobs, and represented the position of the Revolutionary Youth Movement (RYM) wing of SDS, most of which later turned into the Weather Underground Organization. The New Left Notes issue was full of the language of the Old Left of the 1930s; and was thus impenetrable and irrelevant to the majority of SDSers.

Once it became clear that the Worker Student Alliance (WSA) faction was the largest contingent with a majority of the delegates, the convention quickly fell into disarray, as the RYM and allied groups moved to expel Progressive Labor (PL) members and the WSA faction of SDS. The Black Panther representatives attacked PL and at the same time proved itself inclined towards sexism by advocating \"##### power." The entire convention fell into something approaching chaos, or worse, farce.[22]

The RYM and the National Office faction, led by Bernardine Dohrn, led a breakaway meeting from which PL and WSA members were barred. This group then voted by about 500 to 100 to expel PL from SDS, and then walked out of the conference hall with that 500. By the next day, there were two SDS organizations, which RYM termed "SDS-RYM" and "SDS-WSA."


   55. Martin Hemner Posted: May 23, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4138480)
Yes I shave and I ride the subway so I sit next to women. On the other hand I have never kissed a woman other than my wife (and mother) - so that makes me an extremist, right? I am with JE here - have any of you gone to an ultra-ortho synagogue and been teated badly? have any of you actually been spat on? have rocks thrown at your car? or are you taking the acts of a (very) few and applying it to the many?

No, No, No, No, Probably.

As a less observant Jew, what is relevant to me is your community's opinion of other Jews who have kissed other women(or done more than that), don't keep kosher, and don't observe the Sabbath. Is there any judgment of the (otherwise legal) behavior of others?
   56. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4138489)
On the other hand I have never kissed a woman other than my wife (and mother) - so that makes me an extremist, right?


Dunno. But it definitely makes you a Southerner.

   57. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: May 23, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4138496)
As a less observant Jew, what is relevant to me is your community's opinion of other Jews who have kissed other women(or done more than that), don't keep kosher, and don't observe the Sabbath. Is there any judgment of the (otherwise legal) behavior of others?


Why is that relevant to you? With the exception of a few friends and family what others think of me is pretty irrelevant to me. It would be nice if everyone thought I was fabulous (because of course I am) and I try to conduct myself in a way that leaves me respected by others but at the end of the day as long as I can look in a mirror and feel that I'm doing the right thing, it doesn't matter to me what some random person or group of people thinks.

If someone who believes differently than I do religiously tries to convert me out of a sincere concern for my spiritual well-being I would accept that as a genuinely decent act even while I rejected their overtures. Other than that someone thinking I'm wrong in my Catholicism (or anything else) seems pretty pointless.
   58. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4138536)
This was an event by the orthos for the orthos

Is this just internet shorthand, or do these people actually like to be known as a brand of insecticide?


I thought is was a stereochemical designation. Keeping the paras out obviously maintains an appropriate level of consistency.

Was that too meta?
   59. Martin Hemner Posted: May 23, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4138540)
Why is that relevant to you? With the exception of a few friends and family what others think of me is pretty irrelevant to me. It would be nice if everyone thought I was fabulous (because of course I am) and I try to conduct myself in a way that leaves me respected by others but at the end of the day as long as I can look in a mirror and feel that I'm doing the right thing, it doesn't matter to me what some random person or group of people thinks..

What BF thinks of me personally has nothing to do with anything. Whether BF views me as wonderful or an ****** has nothing to do with this discussion. BF is commenting about the perceptions of others, and I am asking him about his perceptions.

What BF is saying that other individuals are rushing to judge the ultra-orthodox community unfairly. I am asking to clarify whether the statements are truly unfair. There is definitely a perception amongst many of the less religious Jews I know that they are looked down upon by more religious sects of the Jewish community. If BF states that he is accepting of individuals' choices of how to observe their religion, even if he disagrees, then I applaud his consistency.

Invoking Godwin's law, if you want to know why it matters, I will tell you. My grandparents' family died in the concentration camps alongside the grandparents of more religious Jews. If only a few generations after that, some branches of Judiasm feel the need to discriminate against others (not just disagree), it's pretty offensive.
   60. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4138541)
i did do a few clicks as recommended above, and see that there is much confusion among gentiles about the jewish conception about the afterlife.


What do the Gentiles know, those nudniks can't even get the day of the Sabbath right.
   61. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4138561)
Does anyone else call the Hasids "frummies"? I didn't know they had any other formal designation until I was almost 20.
   62. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: May 23, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4138622)
Does anyone else call the Hasids "frummies"? I didn't know they had any other formal designation until I was almost 20


I have never heard "frummies" before, i have heard-in no particular order:

hasids
haredi
beards
ultras
schneersonites (from my lawschool roomie, I assume he was talking about the lubavitchers)

The Lubavitchers used to have a van (probably still do but I do not see it anymore), that would park by the Great Neck Train Station, out would come 6-8 Hasids, and they would go around downtown Great Neck, near the train station, asking [white] men if they were Jewish (The right answer to that question even if- especially if- you are Jewish, is "no" btw)- their goal is apparently to save the souls of other jews... (I've been told by more than a few Jews that the religion the Lubavitchers practice is not really recognizable as judaism anymore)

I noticed a definite generational split among the lubavitchers-

If the guy asking you if you are Jewish was old (50+)- they tended to recoil in horror after you say "no" and act (I am not kidding) as though you had some easily communicable disease, and hurry to get out of your presence, twice I had old geezers spit at the ground between us.

If the guy asking was young (less than 30... you don't really see the 20-50 years olds doing this kind of thing- I guess they are working or something)- after you say no, they would usually say, "have nice day" and walk away like a normal human being...

   63. phredbird Posted: May 23, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4138623)
again, my apologies and i won't make that mistake again.


You're no fun.


that's me, i'm just a buzzkill.
   64. Cabbage Posted: May 23, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4138629)
What BF is saying that other individuals are rushing to judge the ultra-orthodox community unfairly. I am asking to clarify whether the statements are truly unfair. There is definitely a perception amongst many of the less religious Jews I know that they are looked down upon by more religious sects of the Jewish community. If BF states that he is accepting of individuals' choices of how to observe their religion, even if he disagrees, then I applaud his consistency.

As an outsider, I find this conflict rather interesting. "Jewishness" can encompass both ethnic and religious identities, and the dispute between secular and religious jew over their shared-yet-conflicted identity is one that raises a lot of philosophical and political questions. I'm personally interested in the longstanding differences and debates between the Christian East and West, and the intersections of culture and religion are always rich with interesting parallels.
   65. JE (Jason) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4138662)
The Lubavitchers used to have a van (probably still do but I do not see it anymore)....

They are called mitzvah tanks!

their goal is apparently to save the souls of other jews...

Which, even in more extreme interpretations, is less likely to lead to violence than proselytizing to those who are not of the same faith.
   66. Big fan Posted: May 23, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4138682)
Martin H - I am not the official arbiter of all things religious, but your basic question dates back thousands of years and was even labeled in the Talmud (2,000 years ago) under the topic " a child who was taken captive" - in other words a person who is jewish with no religous training. We simply cannnot judge such a person the way we would someone who does. So for example, there are things I would do that may invalidate me as a witness in jewish court ('Big Fan knows better and doesn't give a hoot about our laws how can we trust him?') but would not in your case ('MH is a good guy who never was able to acquire knowledge'). Exactly how this plays out in God's eyes I HAVE NO IDEA since unlike John Denver I have never heard directly from Him. I figure God expects you to learn a little something about your heritage, and try to do as many mitzvahs as you can; much as he expects me to learn as much as I can about the laws and do as much as I can. I juist assume he expects more from me based on my starting point.

What do I think when I see my fellow tribesman who have no knowledge of their history and laws? Well, I feel bad about it, and wish I had the personality to reach out and teach them what they are missing out on. I don't feel superior in anyway; after all, do I know I would be any different if I grew up without the training I was lucky enough to have received?

Do I throw rocks at them if I see them driving on Saturday? No. If they are soldiers in the US army or the Israeli army do I pray for their saftey? YES. Then again, I do the same for non-jews too. I am an equal opportunity prayer and non-rock-thrower.




   67. zenbitz Posted: May 23, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4138790)
>They are called mitzvah tanks!

Huh? No big gun. They would have to be ABCs (Armored Beard Carriers)
   68. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 23, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4138825)
Exactly how this plays out in God's eyes I HAVE NO IDEA since unlike John Denver I have never heard directly from Him.


Just as well, it seems all He does is gripe about queers and abortions.
   69. Greg K Posted: May 23, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4138850)
or are you taking the acts of a (very) few and applying it to the many?

Welcome to a discussion of religion on the internet!

Speaking of people doing weird stuff in the name of religion...I just heard an interesting paper at a conference last weekend about what the fellow referred to as "private crusades". Using a kind of forensic study of the fastest news could possibly have traveled from the Holy Land to France he argued quite convincingly that this minor crusade that took place in the 1120s (or thereabouts? I forget) was initiated and organized by a local noble, rather than proclaimed by the Pope as was previously assumed. Particularly before the whole idea of "crusade" became more developed and formalized in later generations there were continuous waves of "crusaders" who were no doubt expressing their piety through crusade, but were also acting independently of the Church and were motivated by local prestige and influence more than theology.

I don't know much about Crusade studies, (except that seemingly everyone studying the Crusades these days specialize in Crusades and Gender) but I found that interesting. I thought that might be a less dangerous topic of religious discussion...it was generations ago and Christians and Muslims have mostly put their differences behind them right?
   70. Swedish Chef Posted: May 23, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4138872)
I thought that might be a less dangerous topic of religious discussion...it was generations ago and Christians and Muslims have mostly put their differences behind them right?

Radical Islamists uses "Crusaders" even now when they talk about Western countries, so it must have left a mark that isn't wholly eradicated. I guess they don't use "colonialists" (from the last time the Europeans came round) because the Crusaders was beaten in battle (of course, the Westerners last time was seen off by secularists and monarchists, maybe they don't want to remind people of that).

but were also acting independently of the Church and were motivated by local prestige and influence more than theology.

I don't see why a Church-sponsored thing would be more indicative of theological reasons. I can see how a Church-sponsored crusade would be more motivated by broader international prestige and influence than a two-bit one (you do the big one together with your peers and a royal or two, that's high-class), but a true believer would gladly run off on either kind, I think.
   71. Greg K Posted: May 23, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4138881)
I don't see why a Church-sponsored thing would be more indicative of theological reasons. I can see how a Church-sponsored crusade would be more motivated by broader international prestige and influence than a two-bit one (you do the big one together with your peers and a royal or two, that's high-class), but a true believer would gladly run off on either kind, I think.

Oh certainly. Motivations are one of the more interesting elements in Crusading I find, mostly because at a certain level they're impossible to nail down with perfect certainty. Church doesn't directly equal theology. As I say I'm not a Crusades-guy by any stretch, but it seems that much of the historiography of the Crusades is tied up in a grand narrative in which a lot hangs on Papal influence (the head honcho of Crusade studies Jonathan Riley-Smith seems to argue Papal influence as a necessary defining element for something to be considered a "Crusade"). Challenging that narrative by necessity challenges some other assumptions about the Crusades, among which are those on the motivations of crusaders. Considering this isn't my field of study (if someone who actually knows what they're talking about wants to correct my representations here, by all means go ahead) I've probably over-simplified things here re: theology vs. prestige. Obviously the two are inter-linked and it's not entirely clear a 12th century crusader would find a distinction between the two of them intelligible.* It's probably more accurate to say that these "private crusades" suggest some kind of prestige/piety matrix that exists outside Church control or articulation. I suppose it remains to be studied how that operates differently (or perhaps not differently at all) to the more traditional narrative.

EDIT: *Nor at this time would be probably understand what you meant by "Crusader". I don't think it was until later that the process was formalized and people started using that terminology. Confusion seemed to extend quite far into the "crusading era" as to how what they were doing was different (if it was at all) from pilgrimage.
   72. Martin Hemner Posted: May 23, 2012 at 10:58 PM (#4139098)
BF - Thanks for your thoughtful response!

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