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Monday, December 17, 2012

NYPost: Davidoff—Discussing R.A. Dickey

In which Davidoff explains all!

3. “Why are we just hearing now about these aspects of Dickey’s personality?”

Well, I’ve alluded a few times to them, first in my column on July 10, the day of the All-Star Game and then a few times these last few weeks, particularly when Dickey showed up at the Winter Meetings claiming he needed to be there to see Mets trainer Ray Ramirez. [...]

4. “What other examples do you have of Dickey being self-absorbed?”

a) When he supported the idea of pushing to charge David Wright with an error so he could get a no-hitter in Tampa Bay. The Mets never should have initiated this idea, but Dickey, who needed Wright as a teammate, could have and should have put a stop to it. You think Wright was happy about being put in the middle of this?

b) In Dickey’s book, he wrote about Mike Pelfrey injuring his shin while kicking field goals on spring training of 2011, as part of a silly bet Pelfrey had with Wright. Is this a horrible action by Dickey? No. But it’s an example of him violating teammates’ confidences to boost his own cause; it’s a funny story, but it makes Pelfrey look bad. It’s why Dickey wasn’t a particularly popular teammate.

And as for that assertion of his clubhouse popularity…yes, it comes from anonymous sources. Such is the way of the world. Dickey knows this very well. My credibility, both within the industry and among readers, derives from not making up stuff. From acting responsibly with information gathered from anonymous sources.

Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 17, 2012 at 07:02 PM | 174 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, mets, new york, toronto

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   1. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4327264)
By Grabthar's Hammer, that is some petty shit.
   2. Swedish Chef Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4327268)
And as for that assertion of his clubhouse popularity…yes, it comes from anonymous sources. Such is the way of the world. Dickey knows this very well. My credibility, both within the industry and among readers, derives from not making up stuff. From acting responsibly with information gathered from anonymous sources.

Well, if your sources don't give you any quotes or any information about concrete incidents to include in your article maybe you should press them harder or simply don't write up the crap you have. Because the case against Dickey was laughably weak.

Sorry, Davidoff, your credibility is shot with me. Every time you use an anonymous source I will think "Jeff Wilpon".
   3. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4327270)
Dickey borrow Chico's soap, no give back.
   4. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4327275)
If you use anonymous sources how would people know if you are making stuff up?
   5. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4327278)
Sorry, Davidoff, your credibility is shot with me. Every time you use an anonymous source I will think "Jeff Wilpon".
Except that Tim Marchman (sportswriter for the WSJ) confirmed, in the other thread, that Davidoff wasn't making it up. He'd heard the same griping from Mets players about Dickey.

Listen: just because a sportswriter is saying something that you personally do not want to hear -- in this case, that a guy who all of us here like is regarded as a bit of an image-conscious primadonna by his teammates -- does make it proper for you to shoot the mssenger. If you click through to the link, you will also see that, indeed, this is not the first time that Davidoff has referenced this matter; he'd been dropping hints about it since the All-Star break at least.

Ken Davidoff is not Murray Chass, and it seems unconstructive to act as if he is. He didn't impugn the morality of Christ, for crying out loud.
   6. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 17, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4327283)
By Grabthar's Hammer, that is some petty ####.
Points!

Well, if your sources don't give you any quotes or any information about concrete incidents to include in your article maybe you should press them harder or simply don't write up the crap you have. Because the case against Dickey was laughably weak.

Sorry, Davidoff, your credibility is shot with me. Every time you use an anonymous source I will think "Jeff Wilpon".
Davidoff should have quit while he was behind. This is sad stuff.

Such is the way of the world.
That writers over time risk becoming hacks who carry management's water because that's where they keep the gold? That seems to be the way of the world, too.
   7. depletion Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4327291)
that is some petty ####.

My thoughts exactly. I'll take Mr Davidoff's at his word, although without exact quotes and context it's hard to know the intent of some of these passages. But "the Mets pushed for a hit to be changed to Wright's error, and Dickey supported it"? Weak.
   8. DA Baracus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4327293)
Except that Tim Marchman (sportswriter for the WSJ) confirmed, in the other thread, that Davidoff wasn't making it up. He'd heard the same griping from Mets players about Dickey.


Fine. It was still a petty, shitty article.
   9. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:16 PM (#4327294)
This is some kind of pathetic display.


Except that Tim Marchman (sportswriter for the WSJ) confirmed, in the other thread, that Davidoff wasn't making it up. He'd heard the same griping from Mets players about Dickey.

Let's see -

81. Tim Marchman Posted: December 16, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4326015)

This isn't something being pulled out of thin air. I think the most neutral way to put it might be that Dickey is perceived to be very aware of his brand. Since that brand is based on openness and authenticity, there's a little bit of dissonance, and that's going to mildly irritate some people. That's mostly irrelevant gossip. (And it doesn't mean that Dickey isn't a legitimately great guy. Every public person is playing a role and managing their brand to some extent.)

The relevant part is that Dickey is (rightly!) seen as being very good at manipulating the press, so if you've decided to trade rather than extend him, you probably want to get it done sooner rather than later, since if the issue lingers he'll be around making himself look good and you look bad. (Not that there's anything wrong with him doing that!)


That sounds about as weak a confirmation of a gripe I've ever heard. In fact, what gripe did he actually confirm? It sounds like he's doing his best to make Davidoff look like less of an ass. And he doesn't use any word like "heard" at all, it sounds more like he's grasping to verbalize a mood, again, in defense of Davidoff.

More the odd thing is that anyone upset at Dickey is somehow seen here - and by you - as some kind of baseball-playing angel child of innocent virtue. It seems just as, and MORE likely that two petulant pricks were bitching and moaning one day because no one wanted to talk to them.

Hey, maybe someone else will come out and confirm that Dickey was a jerk, but at the moment, it looks just pathetic.
   10. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4327297)
5/Esoteric nails it. If this article were about Arod, posters would be far more inclined to believe this sort of thing.
   11. Tripon Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4327298)
Except that Tim Marchman (sportswriter for the WSJ) confirmed, in the other thread, that Davidoff wasn't making it up. He'd heard the same griping from Mets players about Dickey.


The difference is that Tim Marchman didn't spend an entire column on it. You might as hear some griping, but really, that doesn't mean you have to give column space to it.
   12. Tripon Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4327301)

5/Esoteric nails it. If this article were about Arod, posters would be far more inclined to believe this sort of thing.


Yes, because A-Rod actually has centaur pics of himself.
   13. Lassus Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4327306)
5/Esoteric nails it. If this article were about Arod, posters would be far more inclined to believe this sort of thing.

This is an odd way to defend a perceived hatchet job.
   14. JJ1986 Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:29 PM (#4327307)
When Mike Pelfrey pitched, he was not very good. Is this horrible? No. But it is an example of him violating his teammates; it makes Pelfrey look bad. It's why Pelfrey wasn't a particularly popular teammate.

   15. JJ1986 Posted: December 17, 2012 at 09:39 PM (#4327311)
Reasons to trade a player: he might talk about his contract status during the season.

But Dickey's yearning for long-term security, as he expressed in that unfortunate setting, made that an increasingly less palatable option for the Mets.If he couldn't control himself there, how would he not restrain himelf from addressing his situation throughout the entire 2013 season?

   16. Walt Davis Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:05 PM (#4327323)
5/Esoteric nails it. If this article were about Arod, posters would be far more inclined to believe this sort of thing.

Actually we generally "defend" ARod against the sillier stuff around here. Not universally but the general tenor around here (esp among the old hands) is that ARod isn't a playoff choker, we don't care who he's dating, we weren't deeply offended when he ran across the pitcher's mound, we're not even that upset if he's flirting with women in the stands while he's sitting on the bench (or did things go crazy after I left that silly thread). Sure, the centaur, the transvestite and the glove slap ... but those are classics!

C'mon, it's 25 guys plus all the guys who cycle through plus a half-dozen coaches plus trainers plus ... Every player must have at least 10 people they have to hang out with every day that they find "mildly irritating." If the trivial #### Davidoff mentions creates a clubhouse problem -- and a clubhouse problem to the degree that you trade a CYA winner -- then there's not a single player in baseball that's not a problem in the clubhouse.

Were there really no Orioles who grumbled that maybe Cal needed a day off? Are there no Yankees who think maybe Jeter gets a little too much attention? Are there not Angels who are not exactly thrilled to have Vernon Wells sucking up 10% of the payroll? Just wait until Darwin Barney is strutting around the clubhouse with his gold glove and blasting Taylor Swift on his boombox!

And it's weird yeah? Dickey with a 2/$20 extension is not a clubhouse problem but with a 2/$26 extension he is. Does anybody here really think Dickey's personality had anything to do with this trade? Don't be silly.

And let's recall the headline of Davidoff's piece. I know, he doesn't have control over that but it was that the Mets wouldn't "knuckle under" Dickey's "laughable threats". Where the hell does that come from unless Davidoff is choosing sides? He describes this trade as "calling Dickey's bluff" to leave after 2013. That sentence doesn't even make sense. Then the next sentence:

Forget about Dickey, who is not expected to sign an extension with Toronto

Good call on Davidoff's part there.

This is hilarious:

This transaction marks a brave new path for the Mets, one in which sound baseball operations trumps sentiment.

Ummm ... the whole point of your article is that the Mets and their players have _negative_ sentiment towards Dickey. And, yeah, when have the Mets ever followed the "brave path" of getting rid of a popular player?

   17. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4327325)
If he couldn't control himself there, how would he not restrain himself from addressing his situation throughout the entire 2013 season?

The first rule of Spite Club is you do not talk about Spite Club.
   18. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:25 PM (#4327334)
But Dickey's yearning for long-term security, as he expressed in that unfortunate setting, made that an increasingly less palatable option for the Mets.If he couldn't control himself there, how would he not restrain himelf from addressing his situation throughout the entire 2013 season?
This is one fabulously stupid paragraph. Thought of another way, if this is how far Davidoff and Wilpons have to go to stick it to Dickey, how likely is it that's he actually any kind of problem at all?

And what Walt said in #16.
   19. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4327345)
Dickey was such a bad team-mate he didn't jump up to defend the highest paid player on the team, from the ignoble fate of having a bad defensive play termed an "error".
   20. Srul Itza Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4327346)
What struck me is the double standard, where it was okay for the Reporters to ask Dickey about his contract status, but it was wrong for Dickey to tell the truth about how he felt.

Typical "sports journalist" no win situation. If you tell the truth, you are ruining the occasion. If you blow them off, you are failing to properly respect "the reporters' jobs to act as fans' advocates". How self-important can you get?

They are not acting as anyone's advocate. They are trying to corral eyeballs so the paper can sell more advertising space and they can keep their jobs.

Everybody's entitled to earn an honest, or even a semi-honest living. But please don't act like an asshole and then claim you are doing it on my behalf.
   21. Tripon Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4327352)
When Davidoff jumped from from the NYDaily News to the Post, did his colleagues at the Daily claim Davidoff's move was 'laughable'? Or was Davidoff a bad teammate?
   22. Tim D Posted: December 17, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4327358)
Walt nails it as usual. The guy was the only reason to watch the Mets all year and they treated him like $hit. Maybe he is a prima donna. Big whoopee. Like NY clubhouses never deal with that. I see zero evidence to suggest that a failure to extend Dickey would have caused a problem or that he would be unable to "reign it in" during the year. The Mets traded him for baseball reasons which is fine, but they didn't have to abet trashing his character on the way out. Nor did Davidoff, who IMHO just made things worse for himself by writing this latest piece of trash. Dickey makes them all look bad by signing the extension with Toronto. He's 38 and it's his one chance to make some real coin. Cut him some slack.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4327363)
Incredibly petty. Both my the Mets and Davidoff.
   24. Howie Menckel Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4327364)

"When Davidoff jumped from from the NYDaily News to the Post"

well, Newsday to the Post.

MLB clubhouses have lots of players who fart and then giggle at how gross they are. Picture R.A. Dickey in that setting. I guess saying it's a "combustible mix" paints an unfortunate word picture.

   25. J.R. Wolf Posted: December 17, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4327387)
He should be ashamed to even have his name on that article.
   26. Benji Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4327399)
Save this article for mid-2016 when they decide Harvey and D'Arnaud are too expensive for them. They suck the fun out of being a Met fan. The two things the Wilpons are known for: incompetence and sliming their players.
   27. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:12 AM (#4327402)
from the TFA:
8) "You're just carrying the Mets' water. This is like when Dick Young ran Tom Seaver out of town."

Ouch. Well, I've never portrayed Dickey as greedy, because he has been the opposite of greedy. I just think he's high-maintenance, that's all. And I think this trade from a baseball standpoint is very defendable for the Mets. It's a very good return for the Mets. So if I come off as a shill for Mets ownership, that's an unfortunate coincidence.

A corollary to that: I am very much a geek when it comes to analyzing baseball. I think there's nothing more important than statistical analysis. But personalities do matter. They're part of the equation. Mets GM Sandy Alderson may be a godfather of "Moneyball," but he wants a harmonious clubhouse as much as anyone else.

   28. John Northey Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:32 AM (#4327408)
The best way to get a harmonious clubhouse? To win. Doesn't always work (see early 70's A's for a classic example) but winning does make even the biggest pains endurable.

From what I can tell the Mets pushed hard to make Dickey a negative in the local press so he could be traded. After all, he was a hero to fans in 2012 and the Mets knew that this was the best time to trade him to a contender. They got top quality back but had to kill the negative press as best they could and this was how.
   29. JE (Jason) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 12:48 AM (#4327418)
And I think this trade from a baseball standpoint is very defendable for the Mets.

Are there any English majors awake? Does "defendable" look awkward in that sentence? Shouldn't Ken have written "defensible" instead?
   30. drone1313 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4327424)
Are there any English majors awake? Does "defendable" look awkward in that sentence? Shouldn't Ken have written "defensible" instead?


It's a sly way to admit that the trade is not defensible!

The trade could only be "defendable" if the Wilpons and Travis d'Arnaud are forced to hunker down against an onslaught of angry, pitchfork-wielding Mets fans. Which is a very possible turn of events at this point, actually.
   31. Yellow Tango Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4327443)
From this article in the Daily News, here's Dickey's reaction to the no-hitter appeal:
“Part of me would love a no-hitter; regardless of how you get it, it’s still a no-hitter,” Dickey said.

“I don’t know if it would be quite as satisfying,” he added. “I think the asterisk beside the no-hitter would get more attention than the no-hitter, you know? Plus, you’re not pitching the eighth, ninth inning with the pressure of a no-hitter going, you know? It would be a little bit cheap. But, for the integrity of the game, I think it’s worthy of a review, just to make sure.”
Here's Wright's reaction from the same article after failing to make two plays that cost Dickey not just a no-hitter, but a perfect game (the only other baserunner reached on Wright's throwing error in the ninth):
“I guess that’s not an ideal situation,” Wright said sheepishly. “That’s their decision. It’s a little awkward when the team wants an error on its own player.”
And from this Reuters article:
"I tried to make a play. I didn't make it. It's simple as that," Wright said of Upton's ball. "If they want to go back and give me an error, they can do that."
That article also claims without a quote, however, that Wright would "gladly take the error."

Suggesting that Dickey is an unpopular teammate because he didn't push to keep Wright from being charged with an error, rather than that Wright is a bad teammate because he didn't push for Dickey to receive credit for the no-hitter is a bit hard to comprehend, especially when Dickey would have (potentially) had a perfect game had Wright made his plays. I'm sure other things went on behind the scenes, and clubhouse popularity often seems arbitrary, but it's hard to criticize Dickey for what happened based on the public statements.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:16 AM (#4327458)
And I think this trade from a baseball standpoint is very defendable for the Mets.

You could say the same thing about the Seaver trade. It may turn out the Mets got more:

Pat Zachry: he won the RoY the year before the trade ... with 200 IP and a 128 ERA+. He wasn't going to be great (peripherals not so nice) but he was above-average. His problem was he got hurt. This is a bit like the Yankees getting Pineda last year.

Steve Henderson: 24-year-old ML-ready OF. Put up a 120 OPS+ in 2000 PA before being traded to the Cubs for Kingman.

Dan Norman was just filler and Doug Flynn was an embarrassment to the human race.

Skipping the half-season after the trade (Seaver was a stud!), in his 5 full seasons in Cincy, Seaver only put up 12 WAR. Henderson gave them 6 in 3 years and Zachry gave them 6.

That the Mets got perfectly reasonable baseball value* out of that trade (at less cost) yet this remains almost certainly the most reviled trade in history by Mets fans shows why you don't trade a franchise icon when he's still productive. (Not that Dickey is an icon)

*Well, in the alternate universe where the Mets have some baseball sense and don't play Doug Flynn.
   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:24 AM (#4327460)
My general observation has been that Mets fans have acted predictably silly about Dickey, swallowing whole the myth that Dickey is just a naive country bumpkin Forrest Gump type who doesn't care about money.

Not that it's bad to care about money, certainly - but let's not pretend Dickey was willing to work for the league minimum like Barry Bonds was.

   34. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:51 AM (#4327464)
just a naive country bumpkin Forrest Gump type

I don't think anyone who has followed Dickey at all would ever use those words to describe Dickey. He is unusual among baseball players because of his intellect. I don't think that part of your statement could be more wrong.

I don't think most Met fans thought that Dickey was unconcerned about the money. Rather, we think that he was willing to take a relative discount before free agency to ensure that he'd cash in considering he had made relatively little for a 38 year old MLB player.
   35. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:23 AM (#4327469)
He went to war over $6 million when he had very little leverage, signed for another year before free agency at age 38 and for just $5 million and thus without any real ability to completely leverage his Cy Young season.

I expect Dickey to be out of the league in three years.
   36. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:41 AM (#4327475)
He went to war over $6 million when he had very little leverage, signed for another year before free agency at age 38 and for just $5 million and thus without any real ability to completely leverage his Cy Young season.

And how does this make you think that Met fans thought he was "just a naive country bumpkin Forrest Gump type"? If anything, that makes him sound like the opposite of that. Maybe I'm dense but I don't really follow your argument. It sounds like you think that strategy was foolhardy. Whether it was a good move by Toronto or not, if cashing in was Dickey's goal overall, he was definitely successful in doing so.

I expect Dickey to be out of the league in three years.

Absolutely possible. Three years is a long time. Three years ago, Tim Lincecum was coming off two straight Cy Youngs and Ryan Vogelsong was an afterthought, if that. I don't know how that furthers your argument that Met fans thought Dickey was a country bumpkin.
   37. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 03:55 AM (#4327478)
Whether it was a good move by Toronto or not, if cashing in was Dickey's goal overall, he was definitely successful in doing so.


Umm, that's my point.
   38. my2cents Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:10 AM (#4327479)
Makes me shake my head. I only wish that baseball would allow the fans to cast a vote of no confidence.
   39. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:15 AM (#4327480)
The Mets traded him for baseball reasons which is fine,...
Well, let's keep this clear: the Mets did not trade Dickey just for baseball reasons.

You could say the same thing about the Seaver trade. It may turn out the Mets got more:....
I've long been aware of this, but it's the first time I've seen it written up. Reminds me of the situation a decade ago when Reggie Jackson was upheld as the paragon of postseason hitting, the giant who never failed.

Maybe I'm dense but I don't really follow your argument.
It's not you. Ray wears out his welcome and gets called on his bs on the political thread, so he has to come here and make random straw man arguments to keep himself entertained.

He went to war over $6 million...
He didn't go 'to war'. What complete nonsense.

That the Mets got perfectly reasonable baseball value* out of that trade (at less cost) yet this remains almost certainly the most reviled trade in history by Mets fans shows why you don't trade a franchise icon when he's still productive. (Not that Dickey is an icon)
If not, he was getting there. All the more pity, as the Mets have been short of beloved players with respectable tenures on the club since the 1986 Mets.
   40. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:50 AM (#4327484)
He went to war over $6 million when he had very little leverage, signed for another year before free agency at age 38 and for just $5 million and thus without any real ability to completely leverage his Cy Young season


LOL, he had no leverage yet got almost exactly what he asked for.

The Mets offered him $16m, and despite having all the leverage, bumped it to $20M, and despite Dickey's lack of options, he was somehow able to refuse them. Then Toronto gave him only $1M less than what he wanted, except more money up front so it was nearly as valuable as the deal he asked for.

The Mets were the ones without leverage. They had to either sign or trade him now, or risk losing him with only a sandwich pick to show for it a year from now (and forced to risk $14M in a qualifying offer, almost what they offered him for 2 years, just to claim that pick).

The Mets did very well in this trade, but not because they had leverage, and not because they were smart.
   41. bookbook Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:53 AM (#4327485)
O's fans (and management) loved Jim Palmer, who was much more of a prima Donna than this. Is it possible some Mets teammates felt threatened by Dickey's smarts?
   42. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:33 AM (#4327488)
LOL, he had no leverage yet got almost exactly what he asked for.
Funny how that worked out, eh?

Wonder where Ray got to?

@41--yup. Or, to put it another way, have you ever seen an extremely successful guy in a situation where the organization and many of its members weren't doing so well, where no one grumbled about the guy?
Has that ever happened, anywhere?
   43. Flynn Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:18 AM (#4327494)
I'm not buying Davidoff or Marchman's tepid endorsement. If we're quoting journalists and sources, Andy Martino of the Daily News, who is the beat writer for the Mets, quoted a player saying that the only Mets who didn't like Dickey were the d-bags.

Anyway, Dickey comes up smelling of roses here. He gets his extension, he gets to play for a contending team instead of a laughingstock and he is going to be a media darling in Toronto, telling his story to a new audience who will like him a lot (judging by their hockey players the modest, friendly, personable guys do very well in Canada).
   44. Rants Mulliniks Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:33 AM (#4327498)
Is it possible some Mets teammates felt threatened by Dickey's smarts?


Definitely. A smart person, if they like to talk at all, has to be extremely self-conscious in a room full of dumb jocks. Uttering any word with more that three syllables can get you into trouble.
   45. Lassus Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:36 AM (#4327499)
My general observation has been that Mets fans have acted predictably silly about Dickey, swallowing whole the myth that Dickey is just a naive country bumpkin Forrest Gump type who doesn't care about money.

I can't believe I even just read this. WTF are you talking about? Bumpkin? Jesus.
   46. Bob Tufts Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4327506)
Andy Martino of the Daily News, who is the beat writer for the Mets, quoted a player saying that the only Mets who didn't like Dickey were the d-bags.


Considering it is the Mets organization, the higher d-quotient is probably learned in the minors and covers a majority of the people in the clubhouse.

When you play on a team all year, natural factions develop which are hidden by winning and exposed by losing. It is not logical, but it is a natural reaction to being worn down by losses each and every day. You end up with 5 players that like the manager (or player), 5 players that hate that person and 15 who don't care at all. When you lose, the 15 in the middle start to drift towards being negative and the team suffers.

In the minors and on my major league teams, players with bonuses or the high salaried players with media attention were often ####### about behind their backs when things were not going well.
   47. Bug Selig Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:00 AM (#4327508)
The Mets never should have initiated this idea, but Dickey, who needed Wright as a teammate, could have and should have put a stop to it.


Seriously? That's absolutely ridiculous. "After granting that the team are the buffoons in this, I'm going to claim that the employee should have somehow saved the employer from their own buffoonery."

Stop digging. The hole just gets deeper.
   48. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:04 AM (#4327575)
from the TFA:


I'm so sick of people like you, R.A. Dickey, and Albert Belle putting a "the" before "TFA."
   49. attaboy Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4327589)
'You could say the same thing about the Seaver trade. It may turn out the Mets got more'

Wow, I have never heard of anyone trying to say that the Seaver trade was a wash before! If it takes the entire group of players to equal Seaver, doesn't that mean that the 4 or 5 open roster spots that would have been there if Seaver was still on the team had some expected value? I have read lots of article and responses on this site over the past 8 or 9 years, started reading here around 2003 and I really can't (don't want to) believe this comment! As a Mets fan during that time, with Seaver (and Buddy Harrelson) my favorite players from my youth, this trade actually made me a Reds fan until I graduated college and came back home and back to the Mets. Never forgiving and never forgetting but moving on.
   50. Nasty Nate Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4327600)
He went to war over $6 million when he had very little leverage, signed for another year before free agency at age 38 and for just $5 million and thus without any real ability to completely leverage his Cy Young season.

I expect Dickey to be out of the league in three years.


Why do his negotiating tactics lead you to believe that his career is nearing the end? (or am I reading that wrong?)
   51. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4327611)
#50 Got squat to do with Dickey's negotiating tactics and everything to do with Dickey's age.

It'd be a fairly safe bet with most pitchers. But there are no useful priors for Dickey.
   52. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4327616)
Why do his negotiating tactics lead you to believe that his career is nearing the end? (or am I reading that wrong?)


His career is over. It's always been over.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4327619)
It'd be a fairly safe bet with most pitchers. But there are no useful priors for Dickey.

Except it wasn't true for a lot of very good to great pitchers in the recent past.

Just in recent history, all of Clemens, R Johnson, Maddux, Glavine, D Wells, Smoltz, K Rogers, Moyer and Wakefield pitched very effectively from 38-40.

I'd say if a guy is excellent at 37, the odds of him pitching into his 40s are really good.
   54. FrankM Posted: December 18, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4327716)
I suppose the best comps for Dickey would have to be knuckleballers with very good success at ages 35 to 37. It's a small list - Phil Niekro, Hough, Wilhelm, (unless I forgot someone) and those guys were good over their next three years. At the next tier down, you have Joe Niekro, Candiotti and Wakefield who weren't at Dickey's level at 35 to 37 but were sort of OK though not real good over that 38 to 40 span.
   55. Flynn Posted: December 18, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4327753)
The priors for knuckleballers at age 38 is a mixed bag. Phil Niekro and Hough had arguably the best three year stretch of their careers from 38 to 40. Candiotti was already in decline while Wakefield and Joe Niekro definitely hit their decline phases at that age. I guess it's possible Dickey is out of the league in three years, but there is little history to go on. Ted Lyons started using the knuckler more as he aged and had a very successful spell as Sunday Teddy.
   56. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4327899)
Dickey is apparently donating 1% of his salary to Blue Jays charities. ~$300,000.00 in other words.

Can you believe the nerve of this showboating turd.
   57. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4327934)
Dickey showed up at the Winter Meetings claiming he needed to be there to see Mets trainer Ray Ramirez. [...]

When he supported the idea of pushing to charge David Wright with an error so he could get a no-hitter in Tampa Bay. The Mets never should have initiated this idea, but Dickey, who needed Wright as a teammate, could have and should have put a stop to it. You think Wright was happy about being put in the middle of this?

In Dickey’s book, he wrote about Mike Pelfrey injuring his shin while kicking field goals on spring training of 2011, as part of a silly bet Pelfrey had with Wright.

Sorry Jimmy Carter. You're no longer history's greatest monster.
   58. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4327935)
Sorry Jimmy Carter. You're no longer history's greatest monster.

Ha. I wonder if Davidoff felt ridiculous even writing this. It's gotta be the lamest hatchet job of all time.
   59. depletion Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4327945)
Dickey is apparently donating 1% of his salary to Blue Jays charities. ~$300,000.00 in other words.

He probably didn't even ask David Wright if it was OK to donate it to the Jays charity, rather than the David Wright Foundation. You know what he should have called that book: "Wherever I Wind Up, as long as David Wright Says It's OK".
   60. Bruce Chen's Huge Panamanian Robot Posted: December 18, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4327949)
He is unusual among baseball players because of his intellect.


I don't know where people get this idea. He seems like a moron to me.
   61. formerly dp Posted: December 18, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4327981)
It's a little known fact that, in a very dark moment during the descent from the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro, RA Dickey and Dave Racaniello ate Kevin Slowey.
   62. Ron J2 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4328064)
I'd say if a guy is excellent at 37, the odds of him pitching into his 40s are really good.


Well he's had a really nice run from 35-37. Is that enough to dismiss the fact that

a) most pitchers show real age related decline starting at 36 and it becomes more pronounced at 37.
b) He wasn't much before 35.

a probably matters a great deal more than b, but (as you've noted) there are plenty of specific exceptions.

Joe Niekro's probably as useful a comp as you'll get and while he lasted until he was 43, he didn't pitch all that well (ERA+ of 92 after putting up a 117 at 36 and a 135 at 37)

Of interest. Did not realize that Dickey had the 3rd highest K/9 IP in history for a 37 year old. This is of course a very useful indication of longevity.

Strikeouts per 9IP age 37
1. Randy Johnson 13.4 2001
2. Nolan Ryan 9.7 1984
3. R
.ADickey 8.9 2012
4. Steve Carlton 8.7 1982
5. Roger Clemens 8.3 2000
6. Greg Harris 8.3 1993
7. Curt Schilling 8.1 2004
8. Kevin Tapani 8.0 2001
9. Mike Mussina 7.8 2006
10. Stu Miller 7.8 1965 


But Greg Harris and Stu Miller? Never thought of either as old power pitchers.
   63. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4328067)
But Greg Harris and Stu Miller? Never thought of either as old power pitchers.

The Killer Moth? Hooda thunkit.

I just checked his BRef page and a strange thing happened when he was traded to the AL. In the NL, he never had a K/9 > 6.6 (and most years were much lower). But his first year with Baltimore, he went up to 9.1 and stayed relatively high for a few years
   64. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:16 PM (#4328103)
He is unusual among baseball players because of his intellect.

I don't know where people get this idea. He seems like a moron to me.


As he does to me. Who knows. Mets fans have been really silly with this stuff.
   65. caprules Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:24 PM (#4328107)
My general observation has been that Mets fans have acted predictably silly about Dickey, swallowing whole the myth that Dickey is just a naive country bumpkin Forrest Gump type who doesn't care about money.


Can you actually provide 2 examples from different Mets fans here that would lead to this conclusion? Or are you rambling here about idiots you hear on talk shows?
   66. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:44 PM (#4328114)
Dickey wrote a book and it was pretty good. That's where the perception of his intelligence comes from. (He's also been reading Murakami short stories.)
   67. PreservedFish Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4328117)
He named his bat after some LOTR sword. He is said to be well-read. He once referred to himself as an "autodidact." He was charming on NPR. I think it's safe to say that he's a smart guy. At least by ballplayer standards.
   68. Lassus Posted: December 18, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4328118)
As he does to me.[Seem like a moron] Who knows. Mets fans have been really silly with this stuff.

Oh, Ray. Let's see if we can get you to elaborate.

Dickey attended the University of Tennessee, where he played college baseball for the Tennessee Volunteers baseball team in the Southeastern Conference. He majored in English literature at Tennessee, where he had a 3.35 GPA and was named Academic All-American. He was also named Academic All-SEC.


See, here's the thing, Ray. I (and other Mets fans) think he's smart because

a.) I realize English Literature compared to copyright law is some kind of rampart of idiocy, but 3.35 and Academic All-American and All-SEC is not nothing, and that kind of education and writing takes brains.

b.) Everyone who has ever interacted with him has talked about how well-spoken and intelligent he seems.

c.) When you listen to him in interviews, he IS well-spoken.

d.) His (co-authored) autobiography was well-received and well-reviewed.


So, now that I've given you the reasons for my silliness of thinking he's intelligent, why not give me the excellent non-silly reason you think he's a moron. Let's hear even one single reason for saying so. Something you read. Or something. I'll wait.

(P.S. I wrote all that already knowing he was a born-again Christian. I'm closing that response down right now. Good try, though.)
   69. JJ1986 Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4328124)
He named his bat after some LOTR sword.


Orcrist is actually from The Hobbit.
   70. Greg K Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:11 PM (#4328127)
My only extended exposure to Dickey came in the documentary "Knuckleball" which revovled around him and Wakefield.

He seemed thoughtful and open, especially compared to Wakefield who was a fine stand-in for the typical professional athlete who speaks in cliches. I should note this is not to suggest Wakefield is a moron. Professional athletes are well-trained in speaking without saying anything and "being boring".

As a note, Knuckleball was an interesting movie. I didn't realize the extent to which Dickey remains in communication with former knuckleballers throughout the season and goes to them for advice. At one point he visits with Charlie Hough (if I recall correctly) before a game in California and they talk through, and correct some of his mechanics.

I haven't followed Dickey especially closely, where in particular does the moron impression come from?
   71. Greg K Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:14 PM (#4328130)
He named his bat after some LOTR sword.

I named one of my bats "Needle" last year*. Do I get any intelligence points?

*Though I did sadly break it before it saw a live game.

My current bats are named "Gwenyth" and "Rubba-Hubba".
   72. Howie Menckel Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:15 PM (#4328131)

Alderson was on WFAN today.

He was "surprised" by the Dickey comments at the Christmas party, but said he "gets a pass" because otherwise he had handled the difficult situation so well. He added that Dickey was actually a last-minute add to the Christmas party - the Mets found out that very day that he was in town, and asked if he could come.

The implication was that Dickey may not have thought about the media being there, and how he would handle that when they asked about the contract talks. Seems pretty reasonable.
   73. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4328133)
He was "surprised" by the Dickey comments at the Christmas party, but said he "gets a pass" because otherwise he had handled the difficult situation so well. He added that Dickey was actually a last-minute add to the Christmas party - the Mets found out that very day that he was in town, and asked if he could come.

I doubt the slagging of Dickey came from Alderson. That's not really his style. If he wanted to slag Dickey he would have just been upfront about it.
   74. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4328134)
Ray, you're being really inconsistent here IMHO. First, you admonish Met fans for swallowing the myth that Dickey is a "country bumpkin", implying that he's not one. You say in 37 that you agree that Dickey was seemingly quite cunning to get an extension despite not having much leverage. It seems here that you think that Dickey was quite manipulative to get his goal. That would make a lot of things but not a moron.

Then in 64, you say that you think Dickey is a moron.
   75. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:21 PM (#4328138)
I doubt the slagging of Dickey came from Alderson. That's not really his style. If he wanted to slag Dickey he would have just been upfront about it.
I've assumed it came from Ricciadi. That's really his style. Though it's also Jeff Wilpon's style, I guess. What an organization!
   76. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:27 PM (#4328141)
I named one of my bats "Needle" last year*. Do I get any intelligence points?
Well...
My current bats are named "Gwenyth" and "Rubba-Hubba".

No.
   77. RJ in TO Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4328145)
I've assumed it came from Ricciadi. That's really his style.

This would not surprise me at all.
   78. Bug Selig Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:44 PM (#4328146)
He was also named Academic All-SEC.


In football, Academic All-SEC means you behaved in prison.
   79. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4328149)
Oh, Ray. Let's see if we can get you to elaborate.


Dickey attended the University of Tennessee, where he played college baseball for the Tennessee Volunteers baseball team in the Southeastern Conference. He majored in English literature at Tennessee, where he had a 3.35 GPA and was named Academic All-American. He was also named Academic All-SEC.


You don't really want me to opine on the silliness of an English lit degree, do you?
   80. Lassus Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4328151)
You don't really want me to opine on the silliness of an English lit degree, do you?

Yes, ignoring the whole post for a cheap shot a high-school senior could manage is very impressive.

So, I assume you can't elaborate and you are just flapping your lips?
   81. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: December 18, 2012 at 09:59 PM (#4328154)
You don't really want me to opine on the silliness of an English lit degree, do you?

####'s sake, Ray, I've got three of 'em! Technically American Lit, but still!
   82. formerly dp Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4328159)
You don't really want me to opine on the silliness of an English lit degree, do you?
Maybe if you'd taken some Humanities classes, you'd be able to think your way out of a paper bag more often. Instead we get the tortured ramblings and spams you try to pass off as "arguments". For someone trained in law, your critical thinking skills are...lacking...

Teaching reading and writing! What enterprise could possibly be sillier?
   83. JE (Jason) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4328185)
I've assumed it came from Ricciadi. That's really his style. Though it's also Jeff Wilpon's style, I guess. What an organization!

MCoA, I doubt that Sandy is the type of supervisor who permits any underling to engage in such antics. I vote for Jeffrey.
   84. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4328190)

I would echo everything in #70. Knuckleball was a very enjoyable movie (although ~50% too long) and Dickey comes across very well in it. I actually was at the premiere at the IFC center in New York, where Dickey and Wakefield were supposed to do a panel discussion with the filmmakers afterwards. The Mets had a rainout that was rescheduled for the day of the premiere, so Dickey was unable to attend, but they got Phil Niekro to come in his place, and Dickey sent some autographed baseballs for the kids in attendance. Once again, the idea that this guy was a prima donna is just laughable.
   85. Howie Menckel Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:09 PM (#4328194)

Dickey himself, the great man and also the world's greatest monster, had what seemed an impromptu appearance on WFAN this afternoon as well (with Evan and Joe filling in for the late-career Carson-like Francesa's schedule).

both interviews could be on the FAN website, but I'll let someone else carry the ball the rest of the way...
   86. PreservedFish Posted: December 18, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4328225)
My English degree rules! I'm good at stories that 19th century British people liked reading. What could be more relevant?
   87. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: December 19, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4328230)
both interviews could be on the FAN website, but I'll let someone else carry the ball the rest of the way...


Nice eight minute interview on both sides there. Mutual respect, fun, joking around. I've read in a few places how polite and cordial he always is with people, "thank you's" after compliments, etc. Not just because of the similarities in the two trades, but Mets fans respect for Dickey reminds me of Halladay for TOR fans. Dazzling player to watch, and an excellent person off the field as well. Hurts to lose those guys. I started following 7 or 8 NY reporters on Twitter Friday once the trade rumors starting leaking, and all weekend it's been overwhelmingly obvious how well liked he is and held in high regard. Just like Halladay, in the scads of articles i've read, and interviews i've watched/listen too in the last few days, I can't imagine anyone badmouthing this guy. Seems pretty f'n awesome to me.
   88. formerly dp Posted: December 19, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4328242)
#87: Yeah, we weren't coming from nowhere with our effusive praise of Dickey since he joined the team-- he seems like a guy who is humble about his success, because of how long it eluded him. Extremely polite. Easy to root for, a great competitor, even takes pride in his hitting (not that it'll matter much in Toronto). Also, fields his position well. Watching the knuckler turn into a strikeout pitch this season was suspenseful, and just a ton of fun to watch. You'll enjoy him. And Reyes, especially when he's on a winning team, is a joy to behold. The Jays are going to be an absolute force this year, in spite of Mike Nickeas.

As a Met/Jay fan, seeing Halladay dealt to the Phils stung. This and the Reyes trade go a long way to make up for that.
   89. Nasty Nate Posted: December 19, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4328247)
Wow, #79 as a response to #68 is pretty damn weak.
   90. Bruce Chen's Huge Panamanian Robot Posted: December 19, 2012 at 01:53 AM (#4328268)
c.) When you listen to him in interviews, he IS well-spoken.


You must have missed the one where he said "anals" instead of "annals."
   91.     Hey Gurl Posted: December 19, 2012 at 02:08 AM (#4328272)
Dickey is apparently donating 1% of his salary to Blue Jays charities. ~$300,000.00 in other words.

Can you believe the nerve of this showboating turd.


This is part of the deal if you sign with the Blue Jays.

I really don't care if Dickey is a moron, or if he's a giant self absorbed ass-hole, a puppy kicker, or even worse, a "born-again Christian." Just get that knuckleball to dance in the dome and makes hitters look dumb.
   92. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 19, 2012 at 03:13 AM (#4328294)
So, now that I've given you the reasons for my silliness of thinking he's intelligent, why not give me the excellent non-silly reason you think he's a moron. Let's hear even one single reason for saying so. Something you read. Or something. I'll wait.
You'll be waiting for a while.

Ray has nothing constructive to offer anyone, so when he runs out of gas in the political thread--there's not much mileage to be gotten from telling us over and over that nothing can be done, ever, regarding gun violence--he has to run over here and dump his odious nonsense in the Mets threads.

I guess the idea that the team had a smart, interesting, talented player was too much for Rayray.

Wow, #79 as a response to #68 is pretty damn weak.
Yup.
   93. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 19, 2012 at 03:23 AM (#4328296)
Of interest. Did not realize that Dickey had the 3rd highest K/9 IP in history for a 37 year old. This is of course a very useful indication of longevity.

Strikeouts per 9IP age 37
1. Randy Johnson 13.4 2001
2. Nolan Ryan 9.7 1984
3. R.A. Dickey 8.9 2012
4. Steve Carlton 8.7 1982
5. Roger Clemens 8.3 2000
6. Greg Harris 8.3 1993
7. Curt Schilling 8.1 2004
8. Kevin Tapani 8.0 2001
9. Mike Mussina 7.8 2006
10. Stu Miller 7.8 1965


That's extremely impressive company.

One thing, though, is his 2012 rate represented quite a jump for R. A. Would it make more sense to average (weighted average, probably) his previous three seasons? His Ks were 5.4/9 in 2010, and 5.9/9 in 2011. A 3-2-1 weighted average for 2010 through 2012 puts him around 7.3K/9. I'm just leery of outlier seasons, even when they're off a new, improved pitch (or batting stance, or ______) that depends a lot on touch, that may be putting additional strain on his arm, that helped keep him in games and therefore keep his innings total as high as its ever been, and whatever else may be involved.
   94. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: December 19, 2012 at 05:06 AM (#4328312)
Ray has nothing constructive to offer anyone, so when he runs out of gas in the political thread--there's not much mileage to be gotten from telling us over and over that nothing can be done, ever, regarding gun violence--he has to run over here and dump his odious nonsense in the Mets threads.
Hey, that's just not true. I like Ray a lot even when I violently disagree with him (it's actually funny, insofar as we tend to overlap politically -- which is pretty rare on Primer given the numerical scarcity of libertarian/conservative regulars -- but wildly diverge in terms of our baseball opinions). Trust me, you don't want this place to devolve into strict Kos-like groupthink, however intolerably insufferable us outliers must appear.

P.S. Ray is still egregiously f**king wrong about Ichiro and his HOF credentials. But then again his lovable indefatigability in arguing his side of the case is part of why we love him.
   95. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: December 19, 2012 at 06:09 AM (#4328316)
it's actually funny, insofar as we tend to overlap politically -- which is pretty rare on Primer given the numerical scarcity of libertarian/conservative regulars


I can't tell if you're being serious here because it certainly feels like a whole lot of people on Primer are libertarian.
   96. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: December 19, 2012 at 07:31 AM (#4328323)
a) When he supported the idea of pushing to charge David Wright with an error so he could get a no-hitter in Tampa Bay. The Mets never should have initiated this idea, but Dickey, who needed Wright as a teammate, could have and should have put a stop to it. You think Wright was happy about being put in the middle of this?


The inspired thing about this line of attack is that Davidoff has no way of knowing what Dickey might have said to the Mets brass behind closed doors -- his real objection seems to be that Dickey didn't criticize what the Mets were doing publicly. Yet if he had done so, Davidoff would have been able to use this as further evidence that Dickey is overly concerned about cultivating his public image and is for that reason unpopular with his teammates. So it works both ways!
   97. PerroX Posted: December 19, 2012 at 07:51 AM (#4328325)
RA_y, I bet you thought this thread was about you, 'bout you, 'bout you...
   98. Lassus Posted: December 19, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4328336)
Ray has plenty to contribute, and I enjoy his posts a lot. Site would be weaker without him.

I feel like I'm perfectly willing to back down when I've said something wrong or ridiculous. Ray is completely unwilling to do so. He isn't the only one by a long, long, long shot. But he is the loudest one.
   99. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 19, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4328346)
if the mets clubhouse was being disrupted by the likes of ra dickey then the mets clubhouse is more delicate than my wife's knitting circle

good grief.

   100. BDC Posted: December 19, 2012 at 09:45 AM (#4328360)
Hmmn, somehow I feel I have to respond to the idea that a degree in English is silly :) Not that all English majors are geniuses by a long chalk, but Tennessee has an excellent department, and a 3.35 in the academic track in literature there is very respectable. Just because the degree is proverbially useless doesn't mean that it's easy.

I've taught a lot of varsity athletes over the years, and baseball players have things stacked against them. They tend to be mobile (transferring often, leaving school early if they're much good at baseball), and as a sport played several times a week, baseball monopolizes their time during spring semesters. When ballplayers do well in a humanities degree despite these distractions, it's pretty safe to say they're not morons.
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