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Wednesday, January 23, 2013

Obama Petitioned to Force Loria to Sell Marlins

With 7 whole signatories already, don’t be the last on your block to sign!!!!111!!

Please help force Marlins owner Jeff Loria to sell the team. He has lied to the people of Miami to get tax funded dollars to build a stadium and promised to put a team on the field with a payroll avg. The Payroll for the Marlins is about 35 million when it was around 90 last year. He has traded every player away with a high salary after just signing to long term deals last off season.

Only 99,993 to go!

boteman Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:10 AM | 92 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: fanatics, marlins, politics

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   1. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4353207)
Good luck. My petition to have Jeff Francoeur released and to make George RR Martin write faster was taken down by the government after about 150 signatures. While the two things seem unrelated, sometimes you need a little bit of pork to move consensus.
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:07 AM (#4353208)
The headline makes it sound like Obama was the one who did the petitioning.
   3. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:18 AM (#4353217)
Socialist Obama to divide Giancarlo Stanton into his component molecules, give every American an equal share. Jeffrey Loria goes Galt and takes home run statue to Cayman Islands. Video at 11!
   4. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4353223)
It was mentioned in the OTP thread, but for some reason - they did let the 'build a death star' petition come to fruition and I thought the responses were pretty good...

The administration does not support building a death star because:

- such an enormous expenditure on a weapon that can be destroyed by a small, one-man fighter is wasteful
- As a policy, the administration does not support the destruction of planets.
   5. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4353231)
EDIT not working -- but here was the response to the Death Star petition...

This Isn't the Petition Response You're Looking For
   6. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:50 AM (#4353248)
I have to disagree with part of the administration's reasoning. It said "a" Death Star, not "the" Death Star, so presumably there's some leeway to fix some of the design flaws, so that it's not vulnerable to a small, one-man fighter. Why is there a vent to a central reactor essentially unguarded and on the outside of the ship? No competent engineer would say "No worries, that's smaller than a womp rat!"
   7. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4353252)
You canNOT petition the Lord with prayer...
   8. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 11:57 AM (#4353254)
It said "a" Death Star, not "the" Death Star, so presumably there's some leeway to fix some of the design flaws, so that it's not vulnerable to a small, one-man fighter.


By that logic, they could just buy some B-2s and just call them "Death Stars".
   9. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4353261)
I have to disagree with part of the administration's reasoning. It said "a" Death Star, not "the" Death Star, so presumably there's some leeway to fix some of the design flaws, so that it's not vulnerable to a small, one-man fighter. Why is there a vent to a central reactor essentially unguarded and on the outside of the ship? No competent engineer would say "No worries, that's smaller than a womp rat!"


I assume the Empire's structural engineers -- quite correctly, in my mind -- said "we need the open vent to allow for the enormous exhaust generated... covering that is that deflector shield engineers' problem".... and 'guarding it' isn't the engineers' problem, either... presumably, some admiral or general ought to be force choked over that.
   10. Ron J2 Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4353264)
#6 The specific flaws should probably not have been cited. That said, some massive design flaws seem likely to me if you cheap out and try to keep the cost to a mere 825 quadrillion dollars.
   11. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4353265)


By that logic, they could just buy some B-2s and just call them "Death Stars".


But then the 850 quadrillion price tag goes up because Northrup Grumman is going to want a big, big check in order to deliver these new "death stars", even if they're mimics of the existing B-2s.
   12. villageidiom Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4353266)
No competent engineer would say "No worries, that's smaller than a womp rat!"
If an engineer considered something like that to be a design flaw worth fixing, the Death Star would never have been completed.

For that design to be exploited, they needed someone in a small fighter who could get close enough to the vent, and make use of the force to nail the shot. At the time of the attack, there were three people alive in the galaxy who were known to be strong enough with the force to make the shot. One was not a fighter pilot, and the other two were building the Death Star. That they did not design something that would protect against the possibility of a new Jedi who also happened to be a fighter pilot is not on the engineers.

But you're correct, given what we know now, there's no need to stick with that particular design.
   13. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:07 PM (#4353273)
You canNOT petition the Lord with prayer...

Ah, the song that we played every night, as 6 19-21 year old doofusses living in a dump in Erie. This was 1970; the rent was $65/month. The guy who took the money over to the owner paid 10 bucks that month, the other 5 paid 11. IIRC, minimum wage was $1.70/hour to give a frame of reference. Two of us slept on couches in the attic, which were more comfortable than any of the beds in the place. I quit school and headed home in December. I'm glad I did for many, many reasons, including how freaking cold that attic got. We "finished" the ceiling by nailing metal sheets to the rafters; the metal sheets were stolen from Marx Toys by a couple of the guys who worked there; the sheets were printed with model train bodies that would have been cut out for assembly.

I lost touch with guys after I took off; I doubt they got the security deposit back. :)

Yes, there are times when I am grateful to still be alive.
   14. just plain joe Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4353285)
You canNOT petition the Lord with prayer...


That song still cracks me up every time I hear it. It is more than a little ironic that the Doors get more radio play now, many years after Jim Morrison's death, than they did in their heyday. Classic rock radio is a plague upon mankind.
   15. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4353293)

For that design to be exploited, they needed someone in a small fighter who could get close enough to the vent, and make use of the force to nail the shot. At the time of the attack, there were three people alive in the galaxy who were known to be strong enough with the force to make the shot. One was not a fighter pilot, and the other two were building the Death Star. That they did not design something that would protect against the possibility of a new Jedi who also happened to be a fighter pilot is not on the engineers.


You underestimate the power of the force.

The force exists in all living things, flows through them, binds them... by the point of construction, we knew it was a essentially a bacteria and it's entirely conceivable that this concentration of bacteria either existed in multiple then unknown persons, or, as galactic bacteria present in everything, could mutate, evolve, reproduce or otherwise concentrate in any or multiple beings at any time.

It was a problem that should have been addressed... just not by the structural engineers who clearly had a need for an open exhaust port. Now... the one thing I will say, it sounds like this flaw wasn't well known until the rebel attack pattern was analyzed.

THAT seems to me to be a mistake somewhere along the line. However, knowing the Imperial bureaucracy, I'm willing to suspect that the engineers did file the appropriate reports indicating that there was a potential weakness that either the deflector shield guys OR the Imperial command should have been on top of.

My guess -- it was that damnable Admiral Ozzel who dropped the ball... everyone knows he's as clumsy as he is stupid.
   16. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4353304)
For that design to be exploited, they needed someone in a small fighter who could get close enough to the vent, and make use of the force to nail the shot. At the time of the attack, there were three people alive in the galaxy who were known to be strong enough with the force to make the shot. One was not a fighter pilot, and the other two were building the Death Star. That they did not design something that would protect against the possibility of a new Jedi who also happened to be a fighter pilot is not on the engineers.


Obi Wan was alive, known to be alive, and was very much a fighter pilot, at least when they were building the death star if not at the time of the attack.
   17. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4353307)
My guess -- it was that damnable Admiral Ozzel who dropped the ball... everyone knows he's as clumsy as he is stupid.


Ozzel Guillen is no longer with the empire.
   18. flournoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:29 PM (#4353308)
At the time of the attack, there were three people alive in the galaxy who were known to be strong enough with the force to make the shot. One was not a fighter pilot, and the other two were building the Death Star.


Obi-Wan was a fighter pilot, although it had undoubtedly been many years since he had flown at that point. Unless you meant Yoda, but in that case, what about Obi-Wan?
   19. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4353310)
Here's a question...why did they let R2D2 escape with plans that exposed an ACTUAL flaw in the Death Star. Why didn't they just feed him fake plans with a fake flaw? That seems kind of stupid of them.
   20. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM (#4353314)
Here's a question...why did they let R2D2 escape with plans that exposed an ACTUAL flaw in the Death Star. Why didn't they just feed him fake plans with a fake flaw? That seems kind of stupid of them.


Because the plans weren't about the flaw, they were about the death star itself -- the blueprints had to be analyzed by the rebels to find the flaw... and they didn't feed them to him -- the Bothan spies stole them, gave them to Leia, who entrusted them to the droid.

At no time did the empire have R2D2 in its possession after the plans had been stored in its memory banks...
   21. flournoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4353317)
I'm under the impression that they weren't aware of the flaw.

"We've analyzed their attack patterns, and there is a danger." If they already knew of the flaw, they wouldn't have had to really analyze the attack patterns to be aware of the danger. This doesn't speak highly of their engineers, I suppose.

Also, I don't see how the Imperial guys could have known that the rebels who came to rescue the princess brought the plans with them.
   22. depletion Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4353318)
Classic rock radio is a plague upon mankind.

So true. The same 80 or so cuts over and over, year after year. Not even bothering with lesser known songs by the Stones or Hendrix.
   23. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4353321)

"We've analyzed their attack patterns, and there is a danger." If they already knew of the flaw, they wouldn't have had to really analyze the attack patterns to be aware of the danger. This doesn't speak highly of their engineers, I suppose.


I just want to repeat that we don't know that... the engineers might well have been aware and made appropriate suggestions to resolved by more appropriate areas - be it the Imperial command by having an overwhelming force defending that key point, or, by the shield guys to create something specifically for that weak point.

It seems just as likely to me that someone else failed to act... and frankly, it's entirely likely that Palpatine's preference for secrecy and playing various factions against each contributed to the lack of info sharing.
   24. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4353322)
Classic rock radio is a plague upon mankind.


No more or less so than "80's retro radio" or the burgeoning "90's radio" stations.
   25. AROM Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:41 PM (#4353323)
It is more than a little ironic that the Doors get more radio play now, many years after Jim Morrison's death, than they did in their heyday.


Pretty typical though. Death has always been a great career move for artists and musicians. Elvis and Michael Jackson are really raking in the bucks now.
   26. JJ1986 Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4353326)
Because the plans weren't about the flaw, they were about the death star itself -- the blueprints had to be analyzed by the rebels to find the flaw... and they didn't feed them to him -- the Bothan spies stole them, gave them to Leia, who entrusted them to the droid.


I thought the Bothans stole the plans for the second Death Star. Are they even mentioned in the first film?
   27. DA Baracus Posted: January 23, 2013 at 12:46 PM (#4353332)
I have to disagree with part of the administration's reasoning. It said "a" Death Star, not "the" Death Star, so presumably there's some leeway to fix some of the design flaws, so that it's not vulnerable to a small, one-man fighter. Why is there a vent to a central reactor essentially unguarded and on the outside of the ship? No competent engineer would say "No worries, that's smaller than a womp rat!"


The Empire built two of them and they both had a similar flaw. It seems to be inherent to a Death Star.
   28. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4353395)
It is more than a little ironic that the Doors get more radio play now, many years after Jim Morrison's death, than they did in their heyday.

Was there a heavier played song than Light My Fire in 1967? They had a boatload of singles that got constant airplay. I'm not sure that in the context of the times, that they are heavier played on Classic Rock radio than AM in the day.

It seems to me that Classic Rock is programmed to capture the "Guys Who Once Wore a Mullet" audience. The heavy focus on Led Zeppelin and groups taking off from them and the Rolling Stones' 70s and 80s material points me that way. You hear Beatles because that audience heard them as little kids from older siblings. The Kinks get airplay because Lola would have come out when they were little boys and they could titter over the lyrics once the older kids explained them.

I mean Journey? Styx? Steve Miller Band post-1970? That crap is classic?
   29. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4353396)

It seems just as likely to me that someone else failed to act... and frankly, it's entirely likely that Palpatine's preference for secrecy and playing various factions against each contributed to the lack of info sharing.


The biggest fault of the empire was not having a "Department of Homegalaxy Security" that allowed agencies to share information.
   30. just plain joe Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:43 PM (#4353399)
I mean Journey? Styx? Steve Miller Band post-1970? That crap is classic?


I suppose the reasoning is "if it is old enough, it must be classic". The same reasoning that makes every retired athlete a "former star", 30 years after his playing career ends.
   31. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:48 PM (#4353405)
   32. villageidiom Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:55 PM (#4353420)
Obi-Wan was a fighter pilot, although it had undoubtedly been many years since he had flown at that point. Unless you meant Yoda, but in that case, what about Obi-Wan?
I meant Yoda. At the time of the attack, Obi-Wan was dead.

The Empire built two of them and they both had a similar flaw. It seems to be inherent to a Death Star.
They had probably designed the second one without such a flaw, but at the time of its destruction 2.0 was still under construction and had gaps big enough to fit a cargo ship through.

Obi Wan was alive, known to be alive, and was very much a fighter pilot, at least when they were building the death star if not at the time of the attack.
The design of the Death Star predated the slaughter of the Jedi by a decade or so, so at a minimum it was designed at a time when any number of Jedi could have dealt with such a flaw. Regardless of the flaw, one could argue the mere construction of the Death Star would not have been possible without first extinguishing the Jedi. If you look at it that way, the Death Star was designed for a Jedi-free world, and it was on Vader and Palpatine to get that job done. Between letting a fighter-pilot Jedi get away, and not keeping his pants on - which led to the creation of another fighter-pilot Jedi - Vader really dropped the ball.

Damn middle management.
   33. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 01:59 PM (#4353424)
I suppose the reasoning is "if it is old enough, it must be classic".

I guess I can call myself "Classic" then.
   34. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4353425)
I think of myself as "Silver Age" (it fits with my hair color these days, too, especially the beard).
   35. Swedish Chef Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4353466)
The Death Star may be badly designed in details like reactor vents and so on, but that is nothing compared to the stupidity of the overall design. It is a strategic weapon designed to blow up entire planets into gravel, at an enormous cost in energy. In what way is that more terrifying for those on the other side of the barrel than a weapon that simply kills all life and sterilizes a planet? Which would be an at least ten orders of magnitude or so easier task.
   36. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4353472)
Chef, that's the epitome of hubris.
   37. zonk Posted: January 23, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4353476)
The Death Star may be badly designed in details like reactor vents and so on, but that is nothing compared to the stupidity of the overall design. It is a strategic weapon designed to blow up entire planets into gravel, at an enormous cost in energy. In what way is that more terrifying for those on the other side of the barrel than a weapon that simply kills all life and sterilizes a planet? Which would be an at least ten orders of magnitude or so easier task.


How do we know the 'beam' isn't just transporting a little vial of red matter into the planet's core?
   38. McCoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4353498)
I'm sorry but saying an exhaust shaft is a design flaw that needed to be corrected is like saying a the smokestacks on a battleship are a design flaw that the engineers should have fixed.

The Death Star didn't suffer from a design flaw it suffered from major tactical flaws. The whole station should have been put sent to combat stations and the TIE fighters should have been scrambled to their designated defensive zones. There should have been a defensive screen of mid to heavy warships out their or at the very least a picket screen of TIE fighters always surrounding the Death Star.

That they didn't take the attack seriously nor do any kind of planning or preparation for defending the Death Star is the flaw not some exhaust pipe.
   39. Jim Wisinski Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4353500)
a weapon that simply kills all life and sterilizes a planet


Darth Nihilius could kill all life on a planet if he wanted to (and he did!).
   40. bunyon Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4353504)
Obi-Wan was a fighter pilot, although it had undoubtedly been many years since he had flown at that point. Unless you meant Yoda, but in that case, what about Obi-Wan?

I meant Yoda. At the time of the attack, Obi-Wan was dead.


Obi-wan was pretty clearly the guy the Rebels intended to fly into the Death Star. They'd sent for him and everything. The whole point of him going to Alderraan was for him to lead the attack. In any sane universe, Luke would have been cannon fodder and given his life to save Obi-wan. But, no, the whiny selfish bastard had to go and ruin everything.
   41. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4353509)
That they didn't take the attack seriously nor do any kind of planning or preparation for defending the Death Star is the flaw not some exhaust pipe


Yeah. It's like complaining that ships were parked and stationary at Pearl Harbor, or their wasn't anti-aircraft guns on top of the WTC. They weren't prepared for a direct terrorist attack on their military superweapon.
   42. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 23, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4353516)
Darth Nihilius could kill all life on a planet if he wanted to (and he did!).

Little on the nose, isn't it? Makes me think of the brown x-wing squadron.
   43. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4353531)
This thread went in a much better direction than I feared it might. And yeah the Death Star is a better terror weapon than actual weapon.
   44. McCoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4353537)
This thread went in a much better direction than I feared it might. And yeah the Death Star is a better terror weapon than actual weapon.

It's the greatest and most effective weapon ever made. It was so powerful that the Rebellion had to throw everything they had at it and risk it all to destroy it or else they would perish. No other weapon in the galaxy could utterly destroy planet and devestate a star system as quickly and as effectively as a Death Star. With a little less hubris from the Empire the Death Star should have been virtually untouchable.

If the Empire had a fully operational Death Star then the Rebellion would have had to go deep underground and into basically small terrorist cells. They wouldn't be able to mass their forces nor operate war machines big enough and powerful to bother the Empire much.
   45. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4353541)
Classic rock radio is a plague upon mankind


Songs I never want to hear again

All Right Now-Free (why this one all the time? I don't even think it was a big hit then. And it sucks.)
We Are the Champions- Queen. Instant stab for the volume button
Hold Your Head Up- Argent. See #1
Anything- Eddie Money. Now he has a commercial.
Do You Think I'm Sexy- Rod Stewart. No.

   46. DA Baracus Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4353543)
They had probably designed the second one without such a flaw, but at the time of its destruction 2.0 was still under construction and had gaps big enough to fit a cargo ship through.


But that's not how the rebels entered and exited the 2nd Death Star, and they destroyed it with one man fighters as well (in addition to the Millienium Falcon).
   47. JJ1986 Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4353545)
They had to fly into the heart of the second one. They got the first one through a shaft that was accessible on the outside.
   48. McCoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4353550)
The second one was protected by a shield generator and the shield generator was protected by an army equipped with AT-AT walkers. The Death Star also had an entire fleet defending it as well. The problem with the second one is that the Emperor viewed the construction of the Death Star as a trap for the rebellion and Darth Vader allowed the rebels to land on the planet so that they could take out the shiled generator. Once again hubris caused the destruction of the Death Star and not any kind of design flaws.
   49. TerpNats Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4353552)
Songs from classic rock mainstays you almost never hear on those stations:

"Stone Free," Jimi Hendrix
"Emotional Rescue," Rolling Stones
"Victoria," the Kinks
"Call Me Lightning," the Who
"Old Brown Shoe," the Beatles
"Living In The USA," Steve Miller Band
   50. flournoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4353553)
I think it was pretty silly of the Emperor to set his trap for the Rebels while the second Death Star was still so vulnerable. The "entire legion his best troops" on Endor were clearly ill-prepared to defend the shield generator. This would have been a good trap if the Death Star were secretly not vulnerable, the way it was secretly operational. But the vulnerability coupled with the legion getting trounced by a handful of rebels and some teddy bears looks really bad.
   51. DA Baracus Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4353555)
The shield was only for during construction. It couldn't go with it since it originated from the moon of Endor.
   52. Swedish Chef Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4353556)
Never, ever build your superweapon near a planet with a race of cuddly little aliens suitable for merchandising.
   53. McCoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4353560)
The shield was only for during construction. It couldn't go with it since it originated from the moon of Endor.

I wasn't implying that somehow the Death Star would also bring a natural moon with it wherever it went only that the second Death Star should have been virtually impregnable when it was attacked and destroyed.
   54. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4353563)
It's been a while since I've trilogied; was there ever any discussion of (1) how long it had taken to build Death Star 2.0 up to the point of its destruction, and (2) was it capable of hyper speeds? How long would it take to move from one planet to another?
   55. DA Baracus Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4353568)
   56. Karl from NY Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4353569)
Death has always been a great career move for artists and musicians. Elvis and Michael Jackson are really raking in the bucks now.

Absolutely. For counterexamples, does anyone think Bob Dylan wouldn't have a significantly greater mythos if he'd died in that motorcycle crash? Or Jimi Hendrix wouldn't be in old-fogey territory now if he were still alive? Death freezes the perception of an artist at his peak and avoids the decline phase into irrelevancy.
   57. McCoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4353578)
The Death Star was capable of hyperspeed and it was destroyed about 4 years after the first one was destroyed and at around the same time the first one was being destroyed the Empire was building the second one. From what I remember the Death Star was had a much slower top hyperspeed than say an X-Wing or Star Destroyer.
   58. flournoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4353579)
I wouldn't say that Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson were at their peaks when they died.

(1) how long it had taken to build Death Star 2.0 up to the point of its destruction, and (2) was it capable of hyper speeds?


Clearly it took longer than the first one, which apparently took the better part of two decades. They might have started construction on the second one before the first was destroyed, however. You can never have too many Death Stars.

I'm sure the second one was capable of hyperspeed, or would have been by the time of its completion.
   59. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4353581)
Absolutely. For counterexamples, does anyone think Bob Dylan wouldn't have a significantly greater mythos if he'd died in that motorcycle crash? Or Jimi Hendrix wouldn't be in old-fogey territory now if he were still alive? Death freezes the perception of an artist at his peak and avoids the decline phase into irrelevancy.

I'm pretty happy Bob Dylan can still put out records, mythos be damned. I like the late-period bluesy stuff.
   60. JJ1986 Posted: January 23, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4353585)
Clearly it took longer than the first one, which apparently took the better part of two decades. They might have started construction on the second one before the first was destroyed, however. You can never have too many Death Stars.


The second Death Star is running behind schedule at the beginning of the film, but they are able to catch up in a matter of weeks or months. It's more likely that the project took years than that it took decades. I think there are 4-5 years between the conclusion of the first film and the second half of Jedi. The best thing to do is assume it takes a few years to build one and ignore the timeline established by the prequel.
   61. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:03 PM (#4353588)

I think it was pretty silly of the Emperor to set his trap for the Rebels while the second Death Star was still so vulnerable


The Emperor must have felt like Luke was enough of a threat that he had to take the gamble to lure him in to either turn him or destroy him. But did he really need to set that risky of a trap? Wasn't Luke headed for the Emperor anyway? I mean, the Emperor could have lay out a trap where he induces the rebellion to try to assassinate him on Naboo or something - why risk the destruction of the most powerful weapon in the universe and your right-hand man?
   62. JJ1986 Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4353593)
The Emperor seemed 100% certain that Luke would be coming to him anyway.
   63. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4353597)
Regarding the exhaust vent - why did Rebellion decide that they should fly down a trench at high speeds, drop a torpedo that still has forward momentum down a vent that presumably goes 90 degrees straight down to the core? Shouldn't you fly straight at the vent kamikaze-style and launch as many torpedoes directly into the vent?

Regarding the dead musician mini-discussion - haven't there been more Tupac albums released since his death then before?
   64. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4353599)
Classic rock radio is a plague upon mankind.


So true. The same 80 or so cuts over and over, year after year. Not even bothering with lesser known songs by the Stones or Hendrix.


Just drove to the grocery store. On the "Classic Vinyl" station on Sirius in the car they played "Sugar Magnolia" by the Dead. Then I went into the store and "Touch of Grey" was playing on the local classic rock station. That about sums it up.
   65. zenbitz Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4353600)
The Death Star may be badly designed in details like reactor vents and so on, but that is nothing compared to the stupidity of the overall design. It is a strategic weapon designed to blow up entire planets into gravel, at an enormous cost in energy. In what way is that more terrifying for those on the other side of the barrel than a weapon that simply kills all life and sterilizes a planet? Which would be an at least ten orders of magnitude or so easier task.


Are you saying a Death Star is as clumsy as it is stupid?
   66. AROM Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4353603)
Death freezes the perception of an artist at his peak and avoids the decline phase into irrelevancy.


And say what you will about their drug addled brains and self destructive tendencies, but they figured out that peak was age 27 a full decade before Bill James did.
   67. DA Baracus Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4353605)
Regarding the exhaust vent - why did Rebellion decide that they should fly down a trench at high speeds, drop a torpedo that still has forward momentum down a vent that presumably goes 90 degrees straight down to the core? Shouldn't you fly straight at the vent kamikaze-style and launch as many torpedoes directly into the vent?


This part always bugged me. At the least, just enter the trench closer to the shaft. You could still have a really cool battle.
   68. zenbitz Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4353608)
And the whole point of classic rock stations (and essentially ALL commercial radio stations) is to play the same songs over and over again. That's their whole business. I haven't done a study but I am strongly convinced that for most people, familiarity is a huge part of the charm of a given piece of music. The opposite of novelty. Activates nostalgia pathways, etc.

Complaining about it is like complaining that "the food at every McDonalds all tastes the same".

If you want to listen to 'deep cuts' or what have you, get an mp3 player and plug it in to your car stereo!
   69. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:21 PM (#4353612)
I'm pretty happy Bob Dylan can still put out records, mythos be damned. I like the late-period bluesy stuff.

The greatness of Dylan and to a degree, Leonard Cohen, is that they continued to evolve and take risks into old age.

Anyone who has been given the moniker "Sir", on the other hand, just looks bloated and foolish.

Songs I never want to hear again

All Right Now-Free (why this one all the time? I don't even think it was a big hit then. And it sucks.)
-CHECK
We Are the Champions- Queen. Instant stab for the volume button -- CHECK
Hold Your Head Up- Argent. See #1 -- It had very good FM airplay in Philly. I love the song but it is one of those that I can see someone hating though.
Anything- Eddie Money. Now he has a commercial. -- Two Tickets and Baby Hold On got plenty of play in the day. Not that they are "classic", just cromulent songs for their time.
Do You Think I'm Sexy- Rod Stewart. No. -- God, what an abortion of a song.

There are some songs that rotate on and off my "I've heard these way too many times" list. Popping into mind:
Satisfaction - Stones -- Is this song soooo good that I have to hear it for the 3,001st time? 19th Nervous Breakdown and Paint It Black? I'd listen to them any time.
Maggie May - Rod Stewart -- Much lesser song than Reason to Believe from the same era, which gets played 1/10 the number of times

Versions that get played rather than the superior version:
Live Maybe I'm Amazed - Sir Paul -- The studio version is the one post-Beatles Sir Paul song that I really like; the live version is too noisy
Do Ya - ELO -- the original by the predecessor band Move is more straight forward rock and roll and has just the right histrionics


   70. Swedish Chef Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4353614)
Regarding the exhaust vent - why did Rebellion decide that they should fly down a trench at high speeds, drop a torpedo that still has forward momentum down a vent that presumably goes 90 degrees straight down to the core? Shouldn't you fly straight at the vent kamikaze-style and launch as many torpedoes directly into the vent?

The idea is presumably that the Death Star's defensive batteries can't fire into the trench, while the shaft is well-guarded by those same batteries against attacks from straight up.

Now I feel dirty for getting into rationalizations. It was probably just a cool effect they cooked up.
   71. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4353620)
The idea is presumably that the Death Star's defensive batteries can't fire into the trench, while the shaft is well-guarded by those same batteries against attacks from straight up.


There were turbolaser batteries in the trench - when they stopped shooting the Rebellion pilots knew that the TIE fighters were coming.
   72. Swedish Chef Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4353621)
Anyone who has been given the moniker "Sir", on the other hand, just looks bloated and foolish.

Now you've made Sir Mix-A-Lot cry.
   73. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4353627)
Regarding the exhaust vent - why did Rebellion decide that they should fly down a trench at high speeds, drop a torpedo that still has forward momentum down a vent that presumably goes 90 degrees straight down to the core? Shouldn't you fly straight at the vent kamikaze-style and launch as many torpedoes directly into the vent?


regarding the use of the "force" to hit the vent- did they ever hear of GUIDED WEAPONS, heat seeking technology? radar guided? smart bombs???? It seems inconceivable that they didn't have munitions that could be programmed to home in on the damn vent, hell the idiot aliens from Battleship the Movie* could easily take it out with one of their pegs.

*saw it on a flight, mesmerizingly awful movie, but the aliens' weapon system was actually kind of cool- you could envision a real world weapons system working like that in a few decades.
   74. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:35 PM (#4353635)
Now I feel dirty for getting into rationalizations. It was probably just a cool effect they cooked up.


I've heard it was inspired by the scene in The Bridges at Toko-Ri when the attacking jets fly down a river cannon to take out some bridges while being fired on by AA guns.
   75. The District Attorney Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:39 PM (#4353641)
   76. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:48 PM (#4353653)
Nothing can crush my Star Wars Love*, so your over thinking the Death Stars certainly won't. The original scene in the trench is super cool and anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy wrong.

Oh and Classic Rock is OK, especially in small doses. I listen to my own (ever expanding) collection of music (which does include a fair amount of classic rock I admit) via MP3, but the occasional dip in the CR pool is fine.

Battleship was a crap-tastic movie. Not quite crap-tacular, but still enjoyable in a bad way.

* Seen the original move well over a 100 times (mostly back in the day, but every year or so I rewatch), and if the prequals did not kill my love, nothing will, ever.
   77. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:56 PM (#4353659)
* Seen the original move well over a 100 times (mostly back in the day, but every year or so I rewatch), and if the prequals did not kill my love, nothing will, ever.


even worse than the prequels is one seen in the re-edited original Star Wars, where Lucas wanted to change the scene so that Greedo shoots first...
   78. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4353661)

regarding the use of the "force" to hit the vent- did they ever hear of GUIDED WEAPONS, heat seeking technology? radar guided? smart bombs???? It seems inconceivable that they didn't have munitions that could be programmed to home in on the damn vent, hell the idiot aliens from Battleship the Movie* could easily take it out with one of their pegs.


Did you see the kind of computers they were using? Not high-tech stuff. Plus all of this happened a long, long time ago, presumably before that technology had been developed.

White House grossly overstates the costs of a Death Star

'The Administration does not support blowing up planets.'

Well, that is exactly what we have come to expect from the Obama Administration. In fact, as a reason for blocking the development of a Death Star it should be challenged without delay in the Supreme Court as a likely violation of the Second Amendment to the US Constitution.

As David Keene would surely inform the President in no uncertain terms, Death Stars do not blow up planets, people blow up planets.


   79. Moeball Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:24 PM (#4353677)
Songs I never want to hear again

All Right Now-Free (why this one all the time? I don't even think it was a big hit then. And it sucks.)
We Are the Champions- Queen. Instant stab for the volume button
Hold Your Head Up- Argent. See #1
Anything- Eddie Money. Now he has a commercial.
Do You Think I'm Sexy- Rod Stewart. No.


These aren't classics.

Bach and Beethoven are Classics. And Mozart really rocked.
   80. villageidiom Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4353684)
Did you see the kind of computers they were using? Not high-tech stuff. Plus all of this happened a long, long time ago, presumably before that technology had been developed.
One of the things I like about the series, in retrospect, is the mix of technology and primitive culture. You have Coruscant, a tech-heavy city-planet; and you have Tattooine, where you have huts, and beasts of burden, and just enough technology to make a desert planet borderline livable. In many ways it's not unlike life on this planet, with the contrast between a Somali village and, say, Tokyo.
   81. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 23, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4353697)
Obvious there was a limit on what they could have done in the late 70s/early 80s regarding graphics but you would think with the development of droids such as R2-D2 or C3PO they would have been able to develop some sort of guided missile (which did exist in reality already, so it didn't exactly have to come from some futurist).
   82. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 23, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4353712)
but you would think with the development of droids such as R2-D2 or C3PO


and also both R2 and C3PO evidenced a level of AI programming beyond what has yet been managed
   83. flournoy Posted: January 23, 2013 at 07:38 PM (#4353732)
and also both R2 and C3PO evidenced a level of AI programming beyond what has yet been managed


I think some of the posters on this site exhibit AI programming comparable to that of the droids.
   84. Swedish Chef Posted: January 23, 2013 at 07:39 PM (#4353733)
with the development of droids such as R2-D2 or C3PO they would have been able to develop some sort of guided missile

They probably had guided missiles before, but the development of AI technology, like that in the droids, made smart munitions too intelligent to fool into committing suicide on command.
   85. Tripon Posted: January 23, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4353750)

Good luck. My petition to have Jeff Francoeur released and to make George RR Martin write faster was taken down by the government after about 150 signatures. While the two things seem unrelated, sometimes you need a little bit of pork to move consensus.

Winter is coming...
   86. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: January 23, 2013 at 09:36 PM (#4353775)
At the least, just enter the trench closer to the shaft.

Hmm.
   87. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 23, 2013 at 09:39 PM (#4353776)
Winter is coming...


In 2013, even!

Allegedly ...
   88. bobm Posted: January 23, 2013 at 09:41 PM (#4353777)
Regarding the exhaust vent - why did Rebellion decide that they should fly down a trench at high speeds, drop a torpedo that still has forward momentum down a vent that presumably goes 90 degrees straight down to the core? Shouldn't you fly straight at the vent kamikaze-style and launch as many torpedoes directly into the vent?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046889/trivia


The Dam Busters (1955)

Did You Know? ...

This is one of the films that George Lucas used clips from to edit the rough cut of Star Wars (which utilizes many features of the finale of this film quite closely, notably the briefing, the ground staff waiting for news, the troika formation of the attacking aircraft and so on). In Addition, the following exchange from this film is reproduced almost verbatim (with the exception of the characters' names) in "Star Wars": Gibson: "How many guns d'you think there are, Trevor?" Trevor: "I'd say there's about 10 guns - some in the field and some in the tower". 
   89. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 23, 2013 at 10:36 PM (#4353788)
This is a fantastic thread. Ozzel Guillen is the winner.
   90. Bourbon Samurai Posted: January 23, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4353792)
The greatness of Dylan and to a degree, Leonard Cohen, is that they continued to evolve and take risks into old age.


Not to mention he was still in the middle of some of his most interesting stuff. A dylan who dies in the motorcycle crash produces no Blood on the Tracks or Basement Tapes, not even mentioning John Wesley Harding, Nashville Skyline, Desire, Love and Theft, etc
   91. Morty Causa Posted: January 24, 2013 at 01:24 AM (#4353829)
Tribute and interesting comments on how he works his material. He will not repeat himself, either vocally or musically.

A sampling of the ocmments:

“Bob really, really hates to repeat himself. A lot of times he’d do a version of a song and he’d say, “Aw, I’ve done that already. We gotta figure out some other way.” That’s what it’s all about with him.”


“Have I ever played any song twice exactly the same?”
“No, Bob, no.”
“See? I don’t do that.”

And Dan’s like, ‘Yeah, but that song “Can’t Wait”…’ Bob’s like, ‘I did it that way, and I’m never doing it that way again.’


“For him, a recording is a document of the song at that moment in time. My favourite Bob Dylan song is probably ‘It’s Alright Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)’. He has this wicked way of playing it live now, and I saw him backstage once after a show, and I said, ‘Hey, I love the new version of “It’s Alright Ma” – but do you ever play it like the original recording?’ And he looked at me, and he said: ‘Well, y’know, a record is just a recording of what you were doing that day. You don’t wanna live the same day over and over again, now. Do ya?’

When we finished ‘Highlands’, one of the managers came out, and he said, ‘Well, Bob, have you got a short version of that song?’ Dylan said: ‘That was the short version.’”
   92. villageidiom Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4353895)
“Bob really, really hates to repeat himself. A lot of times he’d do a version of a song and he’d say, “Aw, I’ve done that already. We gotta figure out some other way.” That’s what it’s all about with him.”
Given the changes to Star Wars with each re-release, I guess George Lucas is the same way.

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