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Friday, May 19, 2017

Olney: The stupidity of retaliation

So what was the point of the retaliation?

Longtime broadcaster Joe Simpson asked a really great question as Teheran struggled in the early innings: How much was Teheran thinking about his forthcoming retaliatory strike on Bautista as he prepared and warmed up for the game? Because drilling a hitter on purpose is not something pitchers do often.

Keep in mind: Teheran went into Thursday’s start needing performance traction. He really could have used a clean first inning, to get off to a good start, to try to pick up a team reeling from the loss of Freeman. Instead, Teheran and the Braves jump-started a rally for the Blue Jays, and by the bottom of the fourth inning, Teheran was in the clubhouse, having generated his worst start of the year.

What was gained?

Bautista may have a bruise on his thigh, but in his second plate appearance, he mashed a double; it wasn’t like he was intimidated. There was no competitive advantage gleaned. And what if the Blue Jays had retaliated, and another Braves player was hurt?

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:07 PM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: brawls, retaliation, unwritten rules of baseball

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:10 PM (#5459433)
I submitted this as well--worth reading
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5459438)
Isn't this why teams usually wait until the late innings of a non-competitive game to retaliate?
   3. bigglou115 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5459443)
It was really bizarre for me to watch that game and hear all the ramp up. The announcers were begging for it and that it was a foregone conclusion. Nobody worried about it until after the runs starting coming in, which is dumb considering you put a guy with I think a sub .300 OBP on for free.

Sidenote, Teheran had been bad. He's a guy who has gained a reputation as out pitching his FIP because he gives up flyballs that don't turn into homers that often. But this new park has played so hitter friendly so far that he's completely lost whatever part of that was real. Combined with a general poor performance he just looks bad. Last night he gave up 3 homers, highest career wRC+ among the hitters was I believe 35.
   4. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:22 PM (#5459444)
Isn't this why teams usually wait until the late innings of a non-competitive game to retaliate?


or the last game of a series the following year
   5. Greg K Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:32 PM (#5459454)
Last night he gave up 3 homers, highest career wRC+ among the hitters was I believe 35.

I don't know...one of the homers he gave up was to Marcus Stroman, who came into the game batting 1.000, and slugging 2.000!
   6. Greg K Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5459456)
Also of interest, one of the other homers was hit by Darrell Ceciliani, who dislocated his shoulder in the process of hitting the home run. He had to round the bases with his arm hanging at his side.

On the Jays broadcast Gregg Zaun said he had seen someone (I want to say Butch Huskey) do that in the Arizona Fall League in the early 90s. Apparently he was in too much pain to run the bases so Rich Aurilia had to sub-in and do it for him. I don't suppose there are old box scores of AFL games to check up on Zaun's memory.
   7. Ithaca2323 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:36 PM (#5459457)
Isn't this why teams usually wait until the late innings of a non-competitive game to retaliate?


That, and it affords them the ability to pick a pitcher who, if he were lost to suspension, would not really matter
   8. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:41 PM (#5459462)
From a game theory perspective, ###-for-tat strategies actually lead to stable equilibria.
   9. Greg K Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5459464)
I think this was an odd case of the chance of a Jays retaliation being pretty close to 0%. Bautista had already apologized for the thing they were pissed at him for, and unless Teheran shattered his eye socket or something I think everyone was happy to leave it at that.

EDIT: When these things get out of hand it's usually because the two teams disagree on whether the original action is worthy of punishment.
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 02:44 PM (#5459467)
That, and it affords them the ability to pick a pitcher who, if he were lost to suspension, would not really matter

True. I also think you might get some benefit of Bautista anticipating the HBP in his first 2 or 3 PAs.
   11. cmd600 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:09 PM (#5459490)
I saw/heard an interesting discussion in response to the Warriors-Spurs issue with Pachulia stepping under Leonard and twisting his ankle that pointed out that MLB does have the system that the players seem to agree is the most fair way to dish out punishment. Not that getting hit with a pitched ball in the thigh, much less risking one to the head, is anything short of criminal, but I think there is something to be said that in the majority of cases, both sides acknowledge it and move on.
   12. Jess Franco Posted: May 19, 2017 at 03:30 PM (#5459524)
Bautista took one for the team.

Being a red ass is all about self-motivation. Not too many players become stars just shy of 30.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:52 PM (#5459624)
Not that getting hit with a pitched ball in the thigh, much less risking one to the head, is anything short of criminal,

It's clearly far short of criminal, otherwise every single play in the NFL would be assault and battery.
   14. Jess Franco Posted: May 19, 2017 at 04:59 PM (#5459633)
every single play in the NFL would be assault and battery.


Practice.
   15. Rickey! No. You move. Posted: May 19, 2017 at 06:32 PM (#5459715)
Well, they did break our best player's wrist. Someone needs hurting for that.
   16. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 06:37 PM (#5459716)
Well, they did break our best player's wrist. Someone needs hurting for that.

Is there any reason to believe that was intentional?
   17. Jess Franco Posted: May 19, 2017 at 06:40 PM (#5459718)
Rickey is like that maniac in Times Square, except he would have aimed at strollers.
   18. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: May 19, 2017 at 07:12 PM (#5459730)
You might get stabile equilibria, but you might not always like them. ### for tat playing against always defect just leads to lots of bruised batters. (Don't know what strategy each is playing, but even two TFT players can lead to disaster if one misreads the other.)
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:38 PM (#5459812)
I believe Teheran has been horrible in the bandbox and great on the road, no?
   20. baerga1 Posted: May 19, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5459813)
There was no competitive advantage gleaned.

"gleaned"? I dunno I hate to be that guy but that's pretty terrible. It's like a less-than-talented 9th grader making a half-hearted attempt to use a vocab word in a sentence. But this guy is a professional writer. Yes I'm being a bit of a dick but it's friday night and I've had a couple drinks and I'm watching baseball and that's just how it's gonna be.
   21. Bote Man Posted: May 20, 2017 at 02:59 AM (#5459954)
It's Friday night and I've had a couple drinks and I'm just posting my dismay that t-i-t gets censored by the nanny. What's next? Lips??
   22. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 20, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5459996)
You might get stabile equilibria, but you might not always like them


Known to game theorists as "stupid equilibria".
   23. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: May 20, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5460002)
Isn't this why teams usually wait until the late innings of a non-competitive game to retaliate?

...

That, and it affords them the ability to pick a pitcher who, if he were lost to suspension, would not really matter



Doesn't the fact that Teheran was pitching address both the non-competitive game and suspension wouldn't matter issues?
   24. DanG Posted: May 20, 2017 at 03:07 PM (#5460062)
I'm just posting my dismay that t-i-t gets censored by the nanny. What's next? Lips??
You could write t!t. Or (.)(.) when plural.
   25. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 20, 2017 at 05:01 PM (#5460090)
Or (.)(.) when plural.


Lovely!

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