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Sunday, July 27, 2014

OMNICHATTER 7-27-2014

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY


OMNICHATTER OMNICHATTER OMNICHATTER

Gamingboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM | 145 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: omnichatter

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   1. Gamingboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4758433)
Also, HOF is on MLB Network right now.
   2. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4758440)
Gary Thorne is such a great choice to be MC. Great pipes and he conveys a sense of respect and fun in the game. Not surprisingly based on the introductions the entire state of Georgia is in Cooperstown today.
   3. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4758455)
And there's the first Maddux fart joke!
   4. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4758467)
granderson with a slick sliding catch to end the 2nd inning
   5. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4758470)
latos walks in a run. he's all over the place but in classic latos fashion he is making all kinds of faces at the ball/strikes call

guy has good stuff and he's a hard worker but the one thing that is annoying is his fussing at umpire calls. he's beyond the usual griping. he's a crybaby
   6. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4758471)
No one conveys disdain with a bat flip better than David Ortiz.
   7. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:53 PM (#4758472)
laroche loops one to left for a hit and drives in 2.

if you thought latos was unhappy before.................
   8. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:53 PM (#4758473)
and now latos yelling at someone. either the ump or the hitter?

   9. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4758475)
kind of fun to look at the pitcher leaderboard and see kershaw on top of just about positive list.

   10. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4758476)
so the padres have the top two guys in wild pitches. actually wild or catcher issues?
   11. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4758479)
jimmy nelson with his first professional base hit (didn't hit in the minors)
   12. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4758480)
so pedro alvarez has turned 24 double plays. but made 22 errors.
   13. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4758481)
so the padres have the top two guys in wild pitches. actually wild or catcher issues?


Their catchers are tied for the league lead in passed balls so I suspect the catchers bear more than a little blame.
   14. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:09 PM (#4758482)
saltalamacchia with 12 errors while catching

wow
   15. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:10 PM (#4758483)
Allen Webster is a baffling guy to watch. He's like a knuckleballer except he throw in the 90s. The ball has crazy movement and he never seems to know where it is going. Despite throwing reasonably hard and with movement when he misses his spots he gets creamed.
   16. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4758484)
saltalamacchia with 12 errors while catching


I love Salty but he is brutal defensively. Any throw has the potential to end up in the outfield and his pitch framing skills are non-existent. Big stupid swing is a lot of fun when he runs into one though.

It's been funny this year. A lot of people in Boston have been ######## about AJ's defense and pitch framing (deservedly) but seemed to ignore the fact that Salty was every bit as bad last year in that regard. Of course Salty hit.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:16 PM (#4758488)
i made the wife a gin rickey to toast teh baseball hall of fame inductees
   18. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4758490)
jimmy nelson doing pretty ok. of course the mets offense ain't much. not with wright being mortal and teh only real power threat is duda
   19. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:23 PM (#4758492)
one of the things that i tihnk the baseball whizzes are missing about milwaukee is that the team is a good fit for 60's style baseball. solid starters, solid bullpen and an offense based on power. defense has some concerns but up the middle ain't awful.

   20. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4758493)
the brewers have a weird road trip later this season when they go to chicago and then finish in la.

normally san fran, sd and la get baked together in some manner. that and colorado
   21. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4758494)
The Big Hurt is a Big Softy. Bawling his eyes out while making his speech. I was already happy for him but this makes me happier.

EDIT: I don't mean that to be snarky, he seems genuinely touched by the honor.
   22. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4758495)
this jumbo diaz guy, what's his story?
   23. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4758496)
oh boy, i think there is going to be an argument in miller park

reynolds hit a ball that struck the wires of the miller park roof and the umps called it foul.

no argument. ron drops it.

by all accounts a bad call
   24. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4758498)
stadium boundaries and obstructions are reviewable

umps clearly motioned to ron that the ball was NOT reviewable

great work fellas
   25. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4758499)
nelson hitting 94/95 pretty regularly. and i think it's legit
   26. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4758500)
the wendy's places commercials are getting pretty strange
   27. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:46 PM (#4758501)
heartily recommend victoria's gin if you can get a bottle. makes an excellent gin/tonic as well as a good gin rickey
   28. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4758503)
0-0 in milwaukee and not a whole lot of balls hit that hard. degrom and nelson going toe to toe
   29. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4758504)
Hendrick's is my go to gin. How does it compare?
   30. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4758505)
in a vague way dozier of the twins reminds me of dick mcauliffe. all power and walks as a hitter and solid to good defensively.
   31. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4758506)
jose

victoria's has more of a citrus taste. hendricks is all cucumber
   32. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4758509)
kind of fun to look at the pitcher leaderboard and see kershaw on top of just about positive list.


Wainwright is charging up again on the era and era+ side. Not sure what Wainwright is doing differently this year, he's actually dropped his k rate a little this year and his walk rate is up, but his hrs are down and his whip is also improved(which makes his k/9 look like it's dropped more than it really has)
   33. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4758510)
so duda hits another homer in the series. apparently challenging duda was the approach advocated by the coaching staff which seems loony
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 03:59 PM (#4758511)
can i just mention how i am amused on how bereft the chatters are of mets and cubs fans? brewer fans took a lot of guff from both parties back int eh day but now the brewers are still solid and those teams are on the downswing so nary a fan of either club to be seen.
   35. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4758513)
we are here harv, just not worth constantly posting a bunch of swearing.
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4758514)
can i just mention how i am amused on how bereft the chatters are of mets and cubs fans? brewer fans took a lot of guff from both parties back int eh day but now the brewers are still solid and those teams are on the downswing so nary a fan of either club to be seen.


Someone posited that the lack of people on these chatters is a direct result of the first week of the season and the boards being down because of the burst net fiasco.
   37. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:07 PM (#4758515)
Wong may not be as good as Fernando Vina was at the pivot, but he's damn good at it.
   38. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:08 PM (#4758516)
Someone posited that the lack of people on these chatters is a direct result of the first week of the season and the boards being down because of the burst net fiasco.

well that's a load of horsesh8t as i know the same people who used to sneer and mock milwaukee are posting currently in other threads at various times.
   39. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:21 PM (#4758521)
Bases loaded, 2 outs, 7th inning of a 1-0 game and Adam Wainwright is batting for himself. I'm fine with this move, but I'm sure MGL thinks it's the worst managerial decision ever.
   40. bobm Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4758524)
Collins may be a good motivator but he is a terrible in-game manager.
   41. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4758526)
Well that was predictable.... Adam just walked a man to put two men on, two outs, in the bottom of the seventh...Matheny goes out and instead of just replacing him, asks Adam what he thinks he should do, of course Wainwright says "one more batter".... one pitch, ground out to second base.... that is probably it for Wainwright though, drops his era to 1.92.
   42. bobm Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4758528)
Good job by Black
   43. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4758530)
the mets will likely get a split this series thanks to some good pitching and the brewers unable to grasp that murphy and duda are the mets offense.

murphy has 7 hits in the series and duda has 3 homers

   44. mathesond Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4758532)
The Jays continue a poll-All Star pattern of dropping the first game of a series and winning the rest. Now 7-3 post-ASB, and rumors of the returns of Lind and Encarnacion within the week abound.

Aaron Sanchez gets his first career win, in NYS.
   45. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4758534)
Sanchez looked awfully impressive in his debut against the Red Sox the other night.
   46. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4758535)
Bang, zoom, another rubber game winning Curly W is in the books!!!

Allowing only 4 runs in a series in that park is pretty damn impressive.
   47. Snowboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4758536)
Yesterday on the Jays broadcast they were saying Encarnacion had suffered a setback in his rehab, and there was now no timetable for his return. Was there an update/revision today?
   48. morineko Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4758537)
I love Jacob deGrom so much, which sucks as a Brewers fan. What also sucks is the 115 pitches he got left in for. It's not that I don't think he can handle the load but after his moment in the sun with the bunt-into-DP mess he didn't look as put-together as he did during the first 6 innings.
   49. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4758538)
so the reds lose. that helps
   50. bobm Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4758539)
Huge shift against Chris Young by Brewers - first baseman playing between 1B and 2B, 3 infielders playing in and between 2B and 3B.

Young strikes out.
   51. mathesond Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4758541)
Re: 47,

I can't remember where I read it, and it was a blog comment quoting an article they had seen, so there is some question about the validity. I do remember hearing that Lawrie was behind the others, but it didn't sound like he was a long ways off - just needs to get his timing back, or something.
   52. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4758542)
Carlos Santana homers, his 14th in 48 games since being moved to 1B. He's hitting .308/.435/.615 in that period.
   53. Ziggy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4758544)
CFB, re: #32, I haven't looked closely, but that sure sounds like a formula for a jump in ERA. Of course, so does an ERA below 2, so this may not be very surprising.

Anyhoo, Wainwright is really good (even if he's not quite this good), and probably the frontrunner for the CYY, given his IP lead.
   54. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4758546)
ziggy

i htink kershaw's tremendous dominance will hold sway. he's clearly better innings or no
   55. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4758547)
CFB, re: #32, I haven't looked closely, but that sure sounds like a formula for a jump in ERA. Of course, so does an ERA below 2, so this may not be very surprising.


By fip, he's basically the same pitcher as last year 2.55 vs 2.60 this year. Kershaw's fip is actually matching his era this year, so rate wise, Kershaw has been a little more impressive, but yes, I think right now Waino has to be the front runner just because of the innings difference, but at the end of the season, that 30 ip difference won't be as big of a deal. (right now it's around 25% of their value, at the end of the year it will be 15% or so)
   56. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4758551)
something i find odd is that there are now oodles of no name relievers throwing 97-98 mph plus but nobody suggests those guys are using.

when guys were hitting homers that was all the chatter

but apparently anyone can get to the bigs, throw like randy johnson and it's received with a shrug


look, i think the peds stuff is dumb. but i do expect consistency.
   57. Ziggy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4758552)
YOWZA! I hadn't looked at Kershaw in a while, he's leading in *everything*. (And has a higher BABIP than Wainwright.) 30 IP is substantial, but I might revise that comment and agree with Harvey here.
   58. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4758553)
Wong doing Jeter's stupid ass hop throw...it works but wasn't really necessary.
   59. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4758554)
One of the few times a ball on the shortstop side of the diamond makes it pass Peralta. He doesn't have range, but positioning by the Cardinal defenders this year has been excellent.
   60. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4758556)
ziggy

it's not even worth discussing. look, wainwright is great but kershaw is hercules.

   61. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4758558)
Wow, Erick Aybar goes from 2nd to third on an errant pick-off throw, then sneaks home when the throw in from centerfield is lobbed to the cutoff man.
   62. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4758559)
Wrigley sounds like a Cardinal home game right now. 1-0, Cardinals 18th shutout of the season. Wainwright with his 13th win, and his 14th game with 7+ innings and 1 or less runs allowed. (10th start where he has allowed 0 runs)
   63. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:06 PM (#4758561)
I own Carlos Santana in a DMB league. My hope this year was that he would play just enough catcher to qualify at the position, but that he would actually play 1B or DH regularly and that he would have a career hitting year because of the removed defensive stress. He was hitting .160 for a long time but all of a sudden it seems like this is exactly what's happening. Is that 5 HR in 3 days?
   64. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:10 PM (#4758567)
Allen Webster is a baffling guy to watch. He's like a knuckleballer except he throw in the 90s. The ball has crazy movement and he never seems to know where it is going. Despite throwing reasonably hard and with movement when he misses his spots he gets creamed.


This sounds like Aaron Heilman.
   65. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:10 PM (#4758569)
I remember somebody posted a list of all pitchers to win 2/3 of a FIP triple crown and none of them had both BB9 and K9. Kershaw is leading both of those. It would be pretty unlikely that he gets the HR9 title this year though.
   66. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:10 PM (#4758570)
it's not even worth discussing. look, wainwright is great but kershaw is hercules.


Kershaw is a great pitcher and the better talent than Wainwright, but I really don't see that much of a difference between them this year when you break it down. Kershaw has a park advantage that helps him, (which is why their era+/- are so close to each other) while Wainwright has had the better injury luck this year, which gives him the added value.

13-5, 1.92 era and 149.6 ip vs 12-2, 1.76 era and 112.3 ip. I'm not really seeing a Hercules level of difference between these two.

Of course if you project forward, Kershaw should be able to pull away from Wainwright, but as far as backwards looking at results, there really is no difference.
   67. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4758571)
pf

good comparison. heilman was a guy who seemed to have the stuff but any time he got the ball anywhere but the edge it got hammered
   68. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4758574)
cfb

nothing wrong with being the second best pitcher in the league

you need to get used ot the idea that unless kershaw gets hurt he's winning the nl cy young
   69. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:18 PM (#4758577)
Steve Lyons on the Red Sox post game show talking about how guys don't play smart and how they aren't aware of what's going on around them. That's pretty rich for a guy who dropped his pants at first base. I mean, #### happens.
   70. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:18 PM (#4758578)
cfb

nothing wrong with being the second best pitcher in the league

you need to get used ot the idea that unless kershaw gets hurt he's winning the nl cy young


Agree with pretty much that entire comment, doesn't change the fact that if things stay the way they are now, that Wainwright deserves it more then Kershaw.
   71. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4758580)
and the brewers lose

on a side note the mets closer is going to have moments in the future where batters are going to mock his showmanship. here's hoping he's man enough to cope
   72. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4758590)
Agree with pretty much that entire comment, doesn't change the fact that if things stay the way they are now, that Wainwright deserves it more then Kershaw.
I wouldn't be so definitive; it's a coin flip at this point, with a slight edge to Wainwright because of the extra innings. As the year goes on, that edge is going to get thinner, and as good as Wainwright has been, Kershaw's been otherworldly — just one bad start the entire season thusfar, and just 13 runs allowed in the other 15 starts. When push comes to shove, I'm going to opt for the crazy dominant guy.
   73. Every Inge Counts Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4758595)
Tigers O is wasting some good pitching in this series.
   74. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4758596)
Carlos Santana homers again, his fifth in three games. Updating the numbers I posted an hour ago, he's hitting .312/.438/.635 since moving to 1B.
   75. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4758597)
Not sure if this has been verified yet, but some people are saying this was the first three game series without a single home run at Great American Ballpark.

If that's true, that's pretty damn incredible, given that this is year 12.
   76. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4758599)
Fantasy baseball question:

3B in a weekly head-to-head points league: Sandoval, Prado, Headley, or A. Ramirez?
   77. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4758603)
Tigers O is wasting some good pitching in this series.
Angels have run into some monster starting pitching since the break. Against the Mariners, Orioles and Tigers, the Angels have hit just .229/.341/.368 coming into today, just 2.8 runs per. So far today, Porcello's dropped those numbers even more.
   78. Lindor Truffles Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:51 PM (#4758605)
I own Carlos Santana in a DMB league. My hope this year was that he would play just enough catcher to qualify at the position, but that he would actually play 1B or DH regularly and that he would have a career hitting year because of the removed defensive stress. He was hitting .160 for a long time but all of a sudden it seems like this is exactly what's happening. Is that 5 HR in 3 days?

Yes. The thing about Carlos is that he'll take some walks to go with some head shaking K's, unlike a Swisher who won't adjust. He won't ever hit .300 but the eye is there and the random hot streaks make him valuable.

Dunno what the cutoff for C eligibility is, but this will be the last year he makes it. Yan Gomes is entrenched for the next few years, and Roberto Perez has shown well in the three weeks since debuting. He's 25 and not a premium prospect, but should be a good caddy. They started all three guys for the second time today.
   79. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4758606)
I wouldn't be so definitive; it's a coin flip at this point, with a slight edge to Wainwright because of the extra innings. As the year goes on, that edge is going to get thinner, and as good as Wainwright has been, Kershaw's been otherworldly — just one bad start the entire season thusfar, and just 13 runs allowed in the other 15 starts. When push comes to shove, I'm going to opt for the crazy dominant guy.


Absolutely agree here, and said as much in a prior post, that the 30 inning difference won't be the difference maker that it is right now. But right now I think it does give an edge to Wainwright.

Wainwright has had 4 bad starts, in his other 17 starts he has allowed 11 runs.... in his 18 best starts he has allowed 15 runs, in his 19 best starts he has allowed 21 runs...I'm not really seeing a massive difference between these two guys in that regards.

Kershaw has allowed 3 or more runs in a game, exactly as many times as Wainwright has this year.(cherry picked stat and intentionally misleading, even though it is true)
   80. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4758614)
Kershaw has allowed 3 or more runs in a game, exactly as many times as Wainwright has this year.(cherry picked stat and intentionally misleading, even though it is true)
I laughed. :)
   81. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4758617)
David Freese homers, Angels take a 2-1 lead in the bottom of the 8th. Porcello, not happy.
   82. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:08 PM (#4758627)
I know that I'm in the minority by a large amount on this argument, and a lot of people will put it into my Cardinal colored glasses, but I do think that the value of these two pitchers has been very comparable, and both have been impressive in their own way. Non-Cardinal fans underestimate Wainwrights dominance this year in my opinion. Again, in 21 starts this year, he has allowed 0 runs 10 times. Kershaw, Kyle Gibson, and Josh Beckett are second in baseball with 7 times.(who the f is Kyle Gibson?)

Wainwright has 13 games with 1 or less runs....Kershaw, Garret Richards and Kazmir are tied for second with 11 games. (not that impressive of a stat now that I look at the other names on the list, but still it's one point)

And again. Kershaw is the best pitcher on the planet, regardless of value or any other crap I try to argue against that. But the Cy Young isn't about talent or ability, it's about results and I just don't see that there is that much of a reason to put Kershaw ahead of Waino, right now, in the results department.


   83. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:08 PM (#4758628)
cfb

here is what will happen

some st louis writer will start a campaign in mid-august on how the innings pitched makes so much of a differen blah, blah, blah. and it will be picked up by others, maybe even a national guy like costas (for obvious reasons), and serious baseball fans will have to endure an entire september of hearing why adam wainwright deserves the cy young. when really it's message is 'adam is really good. he should not miss out on at least one cy young because of pitching at the same time as kershaw'

it will be obvious and pathetic and annoying

and it might work
   84. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4758631)
cfb

please do not be obvious, pathetic and annoying

try and not be a true cardinal
   85. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:12 PM (#4758632)
David Freese homers, Angels take a 2-1 lead in the bottom of the 8th. Porcello, not happy.


Two names of players I like. Do Angel fans still hate Freese? He's doing better, where I think he's probably close to an average third baseman now.
   86. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4758637)
cfb

please do not be obvious, pathetic and annoying

try and not be a true cardinal



Try and not be a closed minded brewer fan. Why is Kershaw better than Wainwright bringing evidence that is based upon results?
   87. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:21 PM (#4758642)
I know that I'm in the minority by a large amount on this argument, and a lot of people will put it into my Cardinal colored glasses, but I do think that the value of these two pitchers has been very comparable,
They're absolutely comparable, but so long as Kershaw pitches like Kershaw, the distance between him and Wainwright is going to get wider.

Two names of players I like. Do Angel fans still hate Freese?
Last 26 games, he's hit .294/.365/. 482, so it's hard to hate that.

Angels win again. 6-4 against three of the best teams in the league despite just 2.7 runs per game in that stretch. Now it's on the road to Baltimore, Tampa, the Dodgers. No easy slog, but the improved bullpen makes this a fearsome team even when they don't hit.
   88. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4758649)
They're absolutely comparable, but so long as Kershaw pitches like Kershaw, the distance between him and Wainwright is going to get wider.


I still find this talk of distance between them to be somewhat exaggerated. Wainwright has more games in which he allowed fewer than 1 runs(9-6), games in which he allowed fewer than 2 runs(13-11). Number of games where he pitched 7(17-12), 8(8-6) innings. So basically Kershaw has been a strikeout machine, but that is pretty much it as far as the differences between these two guys.

I just don't get the certainty that people have that Kershaw has been significantly better this year.
   89. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4758653)
I just don't get the certainty that people have that Kershaw has been significantly better this year.
Not "significantly." No one's said "significantly."
   90. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4758662)
agreed with 89

and cfb, you just have to look at the leaderboard. are you really going to dispute the obvious?

basically your argument is that gross totals are better than rate per game with the difference in games being not that dramatic and likely to close

this is a peak vs career argument on a seasonal basis
   91. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:51 PM (#4758668)
Not "significantly." No one's said "significantly."


If they have been comparable, then the extra inning advantage would put Wainwright clearly over the top, instead the extra innings makes them comparable, so that indicates that people think Kershaw has been pretty clearly better on a rate basis. I'm not seeing a real gap on rate basis, especially after you account for park factors.

Basically Kershaw has been slightly better on a rate basis than Wainwright, while Wainwright has a clear advantage on innings pitched, that more than makes up the rate difference. Again, over the remaining amount of the season, you expect Kershaw to do better because his peripherals are somewhat better, but as of right now, there really is nothing separating them on a per rate/game basis.
   92. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:53 PM (#4758671)
so let's list all the categories where per bbref kershaw is number 1:

war
era
won-lost percentage
walks plus hits per innings pitched
bases on balls per nine innings
strikeouts per nine innings
complete games
strikeouts/bases on balls
fip

and by the way, wainwright leads the nl in how many categories that folks can recognize?

he's second in a number of them. oh wait, to kershaw
   93. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:54 PM (#4758672)
and cfb, you just have to look at the leaderboard. are you really going to dispute the obvious?


What leaderboard? The one that has Wainwright with more wins, more innings pitched, that shows that their era- is 56 vs 51, that shows Wainwright has more games in which he allowed 0 runs, 1 runs etc?


so you are basically saying that Kershaw wins this debate because he has dodger stadium aided era, and more strikeouts and fewer walks?
   94. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:54 PM (#4758673)
cfb

so your argument now is that if the cy young was decided today then wainwright should win?

hey, congrats to adam wainwright on the thru july cy young!!
   95. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:55 PM (#4758674)
post 93

see post 92

   96. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:56 PM (#4758676)
and note i won't do any mockery of pitcher wins as a category like os many in htis community

it has a place though not as prominent

   97. cardsfanboy Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:56 PM (#4758677)
agreed with 89

and cfb, you just have to look at the leaderboard. are you really going to dispute the obvious?

basically your argument is that gross totals are better than rate per game with the difference in games being not that dramatic and likely to close

this is a peak vs career argument on a seasonal basis


Not really, this is a result versus process argument. Wainwright has been equivalent on a rate basis at the most important thing between these two guys, and that is preventing runs. Kershaw has been posting a dodger stadium aided positive fip.... If you want to argue fip as the only factor, then of course that is going to go to Kershaw. The argument is over, we shouldn't ever debate again, and just rely on a non-park adjusted stat to determine everything from here on out.
   98. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:57 PM (#4758679)
If they have been comparable, then the extra inning advantage would put Wainwright clearly over the top, instead the extra innings makes them comparable, so that indicates that people think Kershaw has been pretty clearly better on a rate basis.
You misunderstand. The extra innings go a long way towards making them comparable.

Basically Kershaw has been slightly better on a rate basis than Wainwright, while Wainwright has a clear advantage on innings pitched, that more than makes up the rate difference
But as the season rolls on, the bonus Wainwright gets from those extra innings dwindles.
   99. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4758680)
CBF, I know you're reading the preference for Kershaw as a knock towards Wainwright. It's really, really not. Wainwright's been fantastic this year.
   100. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 27, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4758681)
so strikeout rate, walk rate, etc? they don't matter as rates

i am really surprised you are taking the st louis dispatch appraoch of dying on a hill that ain't worth it.

wainwright is tremendous. kershaw is the tremendousest.

why you persist down this path is curious
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