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Saturday, June 16, 2018

OMNICHATTER for the weekend of June 16-17, 2018

Scoreboards for the Major Leagues and all minor leagues,
courtesy of Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee).

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:17 PM | 204 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: omnichatter

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   101. Brian C Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:04 PM (#5693698)
These Cardinals are sure a lot of fun to watch playing defense. At least they are for me, as a Cubs fan.
   102. Howie Menckel Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5693700)
do not adjust your televisions - the Mets HAVE scored 4 runs in a game for the first time since June 1 (they lost that one, too, but still)

and it's only the 3rd inning!
   103. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5693702)
I think that Heyward is realistically a 110 ops+ hitter who just hasn't played that well as a Cub.


I was going to reply, "Yeah, totally! That's about his career OPS+!" But looking, it's down to 104. (It was 114 when the Cubs signed him.)
   104. Brian C Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:07 PM (#5693703)
#88 ... that was for TBS yeah? And largely in the studio? Or am I misremembering that? Now on Fox and the color guy, I suspect he's been told to talk a lot, talk authoritatively, probably be more traditions.

Sounds about right. FOX! ruins everything. Watching Joe Buck do the US Open is like running into an annoying co-worker after hours at your favorite restaurant.
   105. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5693705)

I was going to reply, "Yeah, totally! That's about his career OPS+!" But looking, it's down to 104. (It was 114 when the Cubs signed him.)


I also thought that when the Cubs signed him, that he was a guy who was probably going to be a 120 ops+ hitter over the life of the contract.... and was upset that he shot the Cardinals equivalent offer down. But I'm guessing I can live with it, since we got Ozuna for pretty much nothing, Pham was now given a real shot, and the team still has room for Bader, and O'Neill to make a dent on the roster(not to mention Jose Martinez)
   106. Walt Davis Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5693706)
#97 ... well, he was a 110 OPS+ hitter. If you've seen much of his swing the last couple of years, I don't think you'd say he was a 110 OPS+ hitter having bad luck or struggling a bit. The swing was a monumental mess. The couple of hot streaks and other little successes he had were more luck than you'd like -- bloops and swinging bunts. I'm no hitting expert but I don't think I've ever seen a ML hitter with such an awkward swing and apparent desperation just to get bat on ball and hit it fair somewhere.

This year started that way too but I have to say that the last few weeks, the swing has looked infinitely better. I won't be surprised if it disappears overnight and, even if it sticks around, clearly he's not going to keep hitting 350 or whatever. But this has been more hopeful than anytime in the last 2+ seasons.

Alas, his defense seems to have dropped a notch this year. Still solid IMO but the excellent Heyward hasn't been there. (Statcast agrees by the way although Heyward's numbers are a little odd -- way more 3-star opps than any other OF despite limited PT and way fewer 4-5 star opps.
   107. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5693707)
Watching Joe Buck do the US Open


My lame claim to fame of the day. Daniel Berger is my dentist's grandson.
   108. Walt Davis Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:18 PM (#5693710)
#105 ... on the other hand, if you'd resigned Heyward, you probably don't sign Fowler. And maybe we would have.
   109. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5693712)
Alas, his defense seems to have dropped a notch this year. Still solid IMO but the excellent Heyward hasn't been there. (Statcast agrees by the way although Heyward's numbers are a little odd -- way more 3-star opps than any other OF despite limited PT and way fewer 4-5 star opps.


His defense was going to always drop, you go past 30 years old, your defense drops, but generally you add obp and power to your bat when that happens....


But I agree, I don't watch enough of his play as a Cub to know how well he has swung the bat, in St Louis, he looked like a guy who was just a streaky week away from greatness, and a guy who was inconsistent offensively but a real bat with potential.
   110. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:22 PM (#5693713)
With the Cubs, Heyward's outs are painful in a way that good hitters' outs aren't. Sad popups or groundouts. Even his hits are (were?!?) usually sad. Weak liners into RF.
   111. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5693715)
#105 ... on the other hand, if you'd resigned Heyward, you probably don't sign Fowler. And maybe we would have.


Seems very likely, or the Cubs end up making a trade for Blackmon, who was always available, but for some reason nobody made the deal. Cardinals rejected a deal very similar for Blackmon that they accepted for Ozuna, and the Cardinals have had a hard-on for Blackmon for two seasons.
   112. Howie Menckel Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:28 PM (#5693717)
Berger and Finau were in 43rd place entering today. both played well in the very easy conditions early, and both are top-50 level players. they each shot 66.

but they finished before the leaders even teed off, under brutal wind conditions that rendered several greens semi-unplayable. the last 10 players off the tee - most of them superior to Berger and Finau by any measure and coming off two stellar rounds - averaged 77.

it is such a disaster that Berger and Finau are now the final group in the US Open tomorrow - thanks to having the dumb luck of being mediocre in the first two days.

co-leaders Brooks Koepka - last year's winner - and Dustin Johnson - who won this event in 2016 - are paired in the second-to-last group.

it's an embarrassment to the sport.
   113. Brian C Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5693719)
it's an embarrassment to the sport.

That seems like an overbid. I mean, what are you gonna do?* Weather conditions change sometimes. It happens.

*-Not a rhetorical question
   114. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5693720)
His defense was going to always drop, you go past 30 years old, your defense drops, but generally you add obp and power to your bat when that happens....

Yeah, but he's still only 28.
   115. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5693721)
damnit... that was freaking close.....
   116. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5693724)

Yeah, but he's still only 28.


and his defense hasn't really dropped yet, but the theoretical tradeoff was that his offense was going to improve while his defense dropped, and that hasn't happened, his offense hasn't improved. (he's literally on pace for the exact same rField that he has posted the previous two seasons)
   117. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5693725)
With the Cubs, Heyward's outs are painful in a way that good hitters' outs aren't.


And this is the difference in Heyward's recent hot streak. He LOOKS much more like a legitimate hitter: harder contact, handling pitches and doing what he wants with them. It's stunning and I still don't entirely believe it'll last, but it seems much more real than the rare previous "hot" streak he had as a Cub.
   118. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5693727)
Pham is up, a guy who is struggling, and is also the best hitter on the team.... this is exactly what every broadcast wants, but still it's nail biting for a fan.
   119. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5693728)
and his defense hasn't really dropped yet

The point is that it has, both by the numbers and the eye test.
   120. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5693730)

and his defense hasn't really dropped yet, but the theoretical tradeoff was that his offense was going to improve while his defense dropped, and that hasn't happened, his offense hasn't improved. (he's literally on pace for the exact same rField that he has posted the previous two seasons)



Except last year he did it in 126 games while this year he is on pace to play around 150 games.
   121. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5693731)
The point is that it has, both by the numbers and the eye test.


He's at 6 rField after 51 games, he has been an 18 rField player as a Cub.... how has there been any real drop off?
   122. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:39 PM (#5693732)
ugh.... Cubs win the first two games.....
   123. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5693733)
Except last year he did it in 126 games while this year he is on pace to play around 150 games.


and that is sample size issues with defensive numbers.
   124. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5693734)
So that leads to the conclusion that they are the same?
   125. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:44 PM (#5693735)
He's at 6 rField after 51 games, he has been an 18 rField player as a Cub.... how has there been any real drop off?


Exactly how McCoy explained. Per BB-Ref his Rtot/yr in RF has gone +25, +28, +15. His Rdrs/yr in RF has gone +16, +24, +12. Per Fangraphs his UZR/150 (again, only in RF) has gone +17.5, +10.4, +8.1. He's still a really, really good defensive RF, and two months is a pretty small sample. But his fielding has taken a slight step back this year - which has been more than offset by him remembering how to hit.
   126. Howie Menckel Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:46 PM (#5693737)
so I just learned on MLB Network (a little behind on the DVR) that the 2018 Mets are the quickest ever to go from 10 games over .500 to 10 games under. a female broadcaster who appears to be wearing a bathrobe delivers this news.

I don't generally watch this channel after midnight. what should I expect if I taped that, too?
   127. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5693738)
So that leads to the conclusion that they are the same?


No that leads to the conclusion that his defense is still pretty good and that there is no real evidence that it's taken a noticeable drop.
   128. perros Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5693740)
Golf's not really a sport.
   129. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:52 PM (#5693741)
You mean besides every defensive stat, statcast, and virtually all the Cubs fans who watch him everyday telling you so?

I never said he was bad. He used to be amazing, consistently. This year, he's been pretty good, with random pretty bad mixed in (I linked a bunch of videos in a recent gonfalon blog post). Which for him is definitely a noticable drop.
   130. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:56 PM (#5693742)
Golf's not really a sport.


agree. I like to piss off my friends by saying that, and then doubling down with Bowling is not a sport....and note; I'm a bowler(I have worked part time in a bowling alley for 20 years.....I carry a 200+ average and have a recognized 300 with the USBC--bowling organization---) but it's not a sport, it doesn't mean anything against being good at it as an insult or participants at it as an insult, but Bowling, Golf, Nascar, Chess, Video Games, etc... are not sports...


   131. cardsfanboy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:58 PM (#5693743)

I never said he was bad. He used to be amazing, consistently. This year, he's been pretty good, with random pretty bad mixed in (I linked a bunch of videos in a recent gonfalon blog post). Which for him is definitely a noticable drop.


And I think people are just focusing on a routine misplay or two, which happens to every elite defender. I've seen Andruw Jones clearly misjudge a fly ball twice in a month, while he was in his elite phase.... it happens to the best, focusing on that just doesn't really make sense... Nobody is a +20 defender in the corner outfield spots, the fact that he scored well on a test for a few years, and then stopped scoring as well is not really a knock against him, but more an acknowledgement of reality.
   132. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5693768)
Golf's not really a sport.

agree. I like to piss off my friends by saying that, and then doubling down with Bowling is not a sport....and note; I'm a bowler(I have worked part time in a bowling alley for 20 years.....I carry a 200+ average and have a recognized 300 with the USBC--bowling organization---) but it's not a sport, it doesn't mean anything against being good at it as an insult or participants at it as an insult, but Bowling, Golf, Nascar, Chess, Video Games, etc... are not sports...

I've yet to hear a coherent and consistent explanation of exactly what it is that distinguishes a "sport" from a "not-a-sport". AFAIC if it involves either a rare degree of hand/eye or foot/eye coordination at an advanced level, plus a certain amount of physical endurance to play it well at that level, it's a sport. The confusion I see coming from some people is that for many activities, it can be a "game" or a "pastime" at a low-end level, but when it's pursued at a much higher level it most definitely becomes a "sport".

Golf and bowling are two very good examples of this. The idea that top golfers or bowlers aren't athletes is little more than misplaced condescension. Just because you find golfers who can't break 100 or league bowlers with 120 averages doesn't mean that Tiger Woods or Ryan Ciminelli aren't superb athletes, or what they excel at isn't a sport.
   133. Brian C Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5693774)
I've yet to hear a coherent and consistent explanation of exactly what it is that distinguishes a "sport" from a "not-a-sport".

It's all just trolling anyway, though, isn't it? CFB flat-out said it's something that he likes to piss off his friends with.
   134. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5693782)
I've yet to hear a coherent and consistent explanation of exactly what it is that distinguishes a "sport" from a "not-a-sport".

It's all just trolling anyway, though, isn't it? CFB flat-out said it's something that he likes to piss off his friends with.


Since CFB isn't a troll by nature, I took what he wrote at face value. And I'd still like to hear him (or anyone) tell us what distinguishes a "sport" from a "non-sport", in a definition that can be consistently applied across the board. What is it, for instance, that makes golf, which takes a combination of unworldly hand-eye coordination, timing, strength, visual analysis and endurance to play a high level, a "non-sport", while a sprinter whose only challenge is to get from point A to point B a split second faster than his opponent, is said to be participating in a "sport"? All I can see is that they're different sports, not that one is a sport while the other isn't.
   135. TomH Posted: June 17, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5693895)
JOhn Kruk - "Lady, I'm not an athlete. I'm a professional baseball player."

If Baseball = a sport, so does golf. QED
   136. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5693899)
There are sporting competitions on the margins where one can argue if it is a sport or not. I'm thinking of darts, bocce, chess, bridge... Both golf and bowling clear the hurdle with ease.
   137. Baldrick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5693906)
I feel like Wittgenstein pretty firmly dispensed with all efforts to establish a definitive take on 'what is a sport.' In the end, while somewhat unsatisfying, something is a sport if enough people think it's a sport.

If you want to establish the characteristics that define the family resemblance of 'sports,' you'd probably first look for a requirement of physical dexterity and some clear interaction with the material world (which eliminates chess, for example). If you want to draw the circle a little tighter you might look for some requirement of athleticism (which might affect golf, darts, etc.). Further, you might want to see some clear competitive interactions between competitors (which would distinguish 'sports' from 'athletics'). You could go further and distinguish relatively trivial competitive interactions from more substantive ones (in golf, you obviously care about the score of your competitors, but you're not trying to interfere with each other. In running, there's a certain element of interaction with drafting and pacing, but it's nothing like someone trying to tackle you or intercept your pass).
   138. TomH Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5693909)
Weall expected the great Wilmur Font to shut down the Yankees today, right!?
   139. TomH Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5693910)
Julio Teheran; comes out after 6 with a no-hitter intact. Welcome to 2018.
   140. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5693921)
Seems like that Red Sox error should be Mitch Moreland's. Don't understand why he couldn't stretch for that throw.
   141. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5693923)
Bryce Harper's horrible June continues as he leaves the bases loaded in the 8th inning against the Jays.

He's 1-for-12 with a walk this series, 7-for-48 for the month of June,
   142. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5693924)
I feel like Wittgenstein pretty firmly dispensed with all efforts to establish a definitive take on 'what is a sport.' In the end, while somewhat unsatisfying, something is a sport if enough people think it's a sport.

If you want to establish the characteristics that define the family resemblance of 'sports,' you'd probably first look for a requirement of physical dexterity and some clear interaction with the material world (which eliminates chess, for example).


I'd agree with that.

If you want to draw the circle a little tighter you might look for some requirement of athleticism (which might affect golf, darts, etc.).

I can see how it might disqualify darts, but unless athleticism is defined solely in track and field terms (running, lifting, etc.), I don't see how golf doesn't take athleticism.

Further, you might want to see some clear competitive interactions between competitors (which would distinguish 'sports' from 'athletics'). You could go further and distinguish relatively trivial competitive interactions from more substantive ones (in golf, you obviously care about the score of your competitors, but you're not trying to interfere with each other.

That's an interesting distinction, and I'll add that it allows for pool and snooker, where safety play is a key part of the game, even if you're not physically interfering with your opponent.

In running, there's a certain element of interaction with drafting and pacing, but it's nothing like someone trying to tackle you or intercept your pass).

Another good point, but it also shows the limitations of trying to make hard and fast distinctions between "sports" and "non-sports". I doubt if too many people would say that an Olympic sprinter isn't an athlete.

I still think it's better to break activities down into three broad categories: "Always a sport" (hockey; baseball; soccer, basketball); "Game at a lower level, sport at a higher level" (golf, pool, bowling, softball); and "Never a sport" (card games and board games). Obviously that second category is where most of the arguments occur.
   143. rconn23 Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5693925)
Best record and all that, but the Yankees offense has been scuffling for quite a bit. Got all you can ask out of CC today, and they put up nothing against a guy who has given up 11 HRs in the last 27 innings. However, if LeBlanc can shut out the Red Sox, I guess anything can happen.
   144. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5693927)
There are sporting competitions on the margins where one can argue if it is a sport or not. I'm thinking of darts, bocce, chess, bridge... Both golf and bowling clear the hurdle with ease.

Physical skill is the number one test to answer the question for me. I was going to say that competition or at least keeping score is required, but thinking further, no.

Chess and bridge don't fit the definition, then. Bocce and darts do.

My wife is not quilting, which takes some manual dexterity. But I don't think she would call it a sport.
   145. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5693928)
I think we can all agree that a sport at least needs objective criteria for victory, and that nothing that comes down to judges' scoring is really a sport, correct? I realize that puts boxing on the borderline in that a match can be won by objective or scoring criteria. But I think I'm ok with that - seems to me that it's not really "sporting" if there's really no goal other than beating the living sh*t out of the other guy. That's combat, not sport.
   146. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5693930)
Suppose I go shoot hoops with a friend, but that's all, no competition?

Now, suppose we play HORSE?



   147. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5693931)
I've yet to hear a coherent and consistent explanation of exactly what it is that distinguishes a "sport" from a "not-a-sport".
Click here for George Carlin's opinion. (starting around 3:45 of that link)
   148. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5693932)


requirement of physical dexterity and some clear interaction with the material world (which eliminates chess, for example)



Not arguing about the first, but brains and chess pieces are interacting parts of the material world.
   149. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5693933)
Dodgers Caleb Ferguson is a talented lefty obviouslupy learning on the job. Surrenders a 2-2-2 two run homer to Hundley in the first, strikes out the side in the second.

At least he doesn't look like a deer in the headlights this afternoon.
   150. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5693935)
Bryce Harper's horrible June continues as he leaves the bases loaded in the 8th inning against the Jays.

He's 1-for-12 with a walk this series, 7-for-48 for the month of June
And Harper's May, while better, wasn't all that great either.

Is he hurt? Even-year curse?
   151. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5693936)
I admit there are sports where people can excel in their 30's and even 40's. Distance running seems to fall in this category.
   152. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5693939)
Ferguson gives up another two-run homer. Completely a matter of inexperience.
   153. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5693948)
Couldn't get the Carlin link to work, but found it here. Absolutely hilarious, vintage Carlin.
   154. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5693950)
Thank you, Phillies.
   155. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5693952)
The Dodgers gave a gametime PSA to Michael Milken for his Prostate Cancer foundation.

Approve.
   156. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5693954)
Couldn't get the Carlin link to work, but found it here. Absolutely hilarious, vintage Carlin.
Mea culpa, I botched that one bigly. Glad you found it!
   157. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5693955)
Ferguson gets through five giving up just two hits with six strikeouts. Unfortunately those w3nt yard. He's a good-looking rookie.

Time to get some of those back.
   158. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5693999)
C'mon, get Melancon.
   159. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 17, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5694008)
The Angels bring in Blake Parker, nominally their closer, into the bottom of the 9th with a two-run lead. First pitch, homer. Second batter, 4-pitch walk.

No team can compete with a bullpen like this.
   160. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5694013)
ANOTHER blown save by the Angel bullpen. EVERY ####### SERIES.
   161. Baldrick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5694016)
Over his last five games, Mike Trout had a 2.107 OPS. Today he's gone 2-2 with two walks and a HBP. That LOWERED his OPS over this period.
   162. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5694017)
Wow
   163. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:35 PM (#5694026)
The pisser is that they've lost four of those five games, with the bullpen blowing leads in three of those four losses. If they lose today, it'll be four times in the last 6 games.
   164. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:44 PM (#5694030)
I'm surprised the Braves are in first place and I was going to say that it feels like nobody in the Atlanta area cares. Attendance has been ok but not great but apparently their TV ratings are jumping up dramatically year over year. Braves weren't buying it in April but come May ratings were up something like 83%. They are up 43% overall.
   165. Howie Menckel Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5694031)
The Mets were down 3-1 with out to go in the 9th when they rallied and held on for a 5-3 win.

I could try to offer details of the heroics, but I'd be bluffing. they are in a "no watch zone" until they get back to .500 - which could take years.

#fairweatherfan
   166. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:47 PM (#5694032)
The Angels have lost five of six. The bullpen has been responsible for four of those losses. The pen is a complete and utter ####### disaster.

Mike Trout should murder them all. Justifiable homicide.
   167. stanmvp48 Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5694038)
Bad day for bullpens
   168. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 07:59 PM (#5694041)
The Mets were down 3-1 with out to go in the 9th when they rallied and held on for a 5-3 win.


Excellent. Won the series, too.
   169. AT-AT at bat@AT&T Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5694047)
Finally, I get to watch that awesome Jason Heyward without any distractions whatsoever.
I hope I don't get disappointed.
Also, I want to see another Marcell Ozuna whatcha talkin' 'bout' BLUE ? scene.

Go... Cards, I guess.
   170. perros Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:25 PM (#5694054)
Jay probably should've corraled Bautista's double, as he got a bad jump.

Nimmo's a player.
   171. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:41 PM (#5694065)
Well, sh*t. I think Javy just broke a bone.
   172. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5694066)
maybe it just hit his funny bone.
   173. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:44 PM (#5694067)
maybe it just hit his funny bone.
A-Rod just explained to the viewers, "that's called your funny bone." Thanks for that.
   174. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5694070)
Heh... i'm watching on mute. Even if it is 'just' the funny bone, id assume a ML fastball off of it causes unimaginable pain.
   175. Bote Man the walk-off king Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5694071)
I think it's CFB who's always saying the Cards' defense stinks. I agree.
   176. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5694073)
Since CFB isn't a troll by nature, I took what he wrote at face value. And I'd still like to hear him (or anyone) tell us what distinguishes a "sport" from a "non-sport", in a definition that can be consistently applied across the board. What is it, for instance, that makes golf, which takes a combination of unworldly hand-eye coordination, timing, strength, visual analysis and endurance to play a high level, a "non-sport", while a sprinter whose only challenge is to get from point A to point B a split second faster than his opponent, is said to be participating in a "sport"? All I can see is that they're different sports, not that one is a sport while the other isn't.


I think of a sport as a competition between people(or groups of people) in which a judges arbitrary scoring system isn't necessary (in it's purest form) in which the participants are frequently expected to do maximum physical exertion for 5 or more second from time to time in the event.

I don't think that it diminishes someone to say their game of choice is not a sport. Star Wars isn't a musical, it doesn't diminish it as a form of entertainment(or if you don't like musicals, Singing in the Rain isn't science fiction etc.)

What it boils down to is that boxing is a sport(yes there is a judge system, but at it's heart it's about knocking the other person out) , track is a sport, synchronized swimming and gymnastics are not(even though latter is probably among the best athletes participating in competitions) neither is car/horse racing, bowling, pool, video game, poker, x-games scoring type of events, hunting etc. And I fully admit it's a subjective opinion from me. I don't doubt that the best people in the world at those competitions are good athletes. I just don't view it as a sport.
   177. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5694076)
Yeah. Usually fans of a team get skewed expectations since they have no baseline. But they've looked bad the last couple games. FWIW, Fangraphs has them about average overall.
   178. Leroy Kincaid Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5694078)
Mike Shannon needs to retire. It's like listening to Abe Simpson announce the game.
   179. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5694079)
I think it's CFB who's always saying the Cards' defense stinks. I agree.


I think their defense is sub par, Ozuna, Fowler, Jose Martinez and Carpenter at times are poor defenders, while Gyorko, Wong and Bader are excellent defenders with the rest being about average, and Molina not being given a chance at all of showing off his skills this season because the pitching sucks at holding runners, and at the same time, nobody is actually running on Molina(Not sure where he is at right now, but at one point in time the Cardinals had yet to nail anyone attempting a steal, and were 2nd fewest in steal attempts allowed, meaning teams were only running with their best runners or when they had great jumps.)
   180. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5694081)
Mike Maddux looks like he should be wearing cutoff jean shorts and a tank top rather than a crisp white major league uniform.
   181. Bote Man the walk-off king Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5694116)
There's a sports bar in Key West called Jack Flats. I wonder if Jack Flaherty owns it?
   182. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5694127)
Bader showing off the speed, I'm not watching the game at all(don't have ESPN) but he really doesn't look like he's as fast as he is supposedly (top 7 fastest guy in MLB according to statcast)
   183. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:16 PM (#5694128)
I think of a sport as a competition between people(or groups of people) in which a judges arbitrary scoring system isn't necessary (in it's purest form) in which the participants are frequently expected to do maximum physical exertion for 5 or more second from time to time in the event.

I don't think that it diminishes someone to say their game of choice is not a sport. Star Wars isn't a musical, it doesn't diminish it as a form of entertainment(or if you don't like musicals, Singing in the Rain isn't science fiction etc.)

What it boils down to is that boxing is a sport(yes there is a judge system, but at it's heart it's about knocking the other person out) , track is a sport, synchronized swimming and gymnastics are not(even though latter is probably among the best athletes participating in competitions) neither is car/horse racing, bowling, pool, video game, poker, x-games scoring type of events, hunting etc. And I fully admit it's a subjective opinion from me. I don't doubt that the best people in the world at those competitions are good athletes. I just don't view it as a sport.


Fair enough, since as you say, all of this is inherently subjective. I like my gradations way of ranking them better, but to each his own.

But I can't see how either car racing or horse racing wouldn't qualify under your definition, especially the latter, unless you think that jockeys do nothing but sit there on their horses and have no effect on the outcome.

So what's the most demanding sport overall? I can't see any other choice than ice hockey, even though you couldn't pay me enough money to watch it for more than five minutes. Blinding speed, stamina, maximum hand/eye coordination, skating ability, unworldly reflexes, and a physicality that's exceeded only by rugby and American football. The only thing that diminishes it somewhat is that players don't play even close to the full 60 minutes, but IMO that's more than made up for by the intensity of the play while they're actually on the ice, which is more than 3 times as long as the average football player is doing anything other than standing around.
   184. Walt Davis Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5694130)
Finally free to watch a bit of the game and ... Anthony Bass is pitching in a crucial situation? C'mon Joe.
   185. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5694131)
So, the high-leverage reliever is...Anthony Bass??
   186. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5694132)
Coke to Walt. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe had decided before the game that Bass was going to be first out of the pen. Managering.
   187. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5694134)
Why not go home with that?? Hard hit ball, Molina running, you're going to get the DP either way. Come on.
   188. Walt Davis Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:32 PM (#5694137)
Not that any of it was Bass's fault really. He got the two GB he wanted, ARod is right he should have gone to 3rd and he should have made a better throw and Rizzo should have caught that throw. The pitch to Gyorko was a bit of a meatball but he'd basically already done his job by then.

I suppose the Cubs are a bit short-handed on the RH reliever side at the moment. Morrow threw 25 pitches last night (not that he's coming in there anyway). But Cishek had just 15 and Strop just 13 ... but then they're likely not available to pitch the 7th-8th. Rosario's been used two straight games so you'd probably then have Wilson coming on (of course he's probably coming on at some point anyway now). Anyway, I'm not gonna work through all of the scenarios but Bass there looks reasonable and might be optimal. Getting Edwards back will be good.
   189. McCoy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5694138)
So what's the most demanding sport overall?

Weightlifting? Chess? For one you basically have to be autistic to play at a high level and the other you have to destroy your body every single day to excel.
   190. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:36 PM (#5694139)
But I can't see how either car racing or horse racing wouldn't qualify under your definition, especially the latter, unless you think that jockeys do nothing but sit there on their horses and have no effect on the outcome.


Horse racing is a sport for the horses, but not the jockeys, same with cars and car racing. Again I'm not diminishing the technical skills, athletic endurance etc of these athletes, but when the competitor is not the guy in the winners circle, then I'm not sure I would call it a sport.

So what's the most demanding sport overall? I can't see any other choice than ice hockey, even though you couldn't pay me enough money to watch it for more than five minutes. Blinding speed, stamina, maximum hand/eye coordination, skating ability, unworldly reflexes, and a physicality that's exceeded only by rugby and American football. The only thing that diminishes it somewhat is that players don't play even close to the full 60 minutes, but IMO that's more than made up for by the intensity of the play while they're actually on the ice, which is more than 3 times as long as the average football player is doing anything other than standing around.


That is tough... I mean among team sports I don't really see any difference between soccer, hockey, basketball and football (or rugby even and others) Mind you, I imagine the essence of a sport as the way it's played in unorganized grade school type of play. Where you can't afford to get a full team and how you play it at it's essence. There is no players who are strictly offense or defense etc.

At the pro level, there is of course difference based simply because of how much money that they have. If the NFL all the sudden got to the point that it couldn't afford to pay more than $10,000 a year to it's players, you will see much more two way players than you do nowadays. same with hockey and basketball, the ability to substitute players will become something different and rarer.


But if you put a gun to my head, I would say that boxing is the most demanding sport. (or MMA or more and more extreme versions of the combat sport, although a good point you are making is that it doesn't require the coordination at the same level as hockey)

Mind you, I think the best athletes on the planet are ADULT gymnasts, and that competition level cheerleading is more demanding than most of the big money making sports, but the fact that it's scored by judges just makes it too subjective to me to call it a sport.


edit: there is a reason I capitalized adult, when you are looking at children gymnasts,(mostly in the women's division) you are mostly looking at flexibility and not really the same level of strength/coordination/flexibility that you get in the male gymnast events. (at the same time you are giving up fine tune coordination that exists even in golf, baseball, basketball and hockey)
   191. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5694142)
But if you put a gun to my head, I would say that boxing is the most demanding sport.
Who the hell would put a gun to your head in an argument about the most demanding sport?

I mean, other than Kevin Brown.
   192. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5694144)
Yes Matt Carpenter gives the Cardinals a 3-0 lead with his 10th homerun of the season.
   193. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5694145)
But I can't see how either car racing or horse racing wouldn't qualify under your definition, especially the latter, unless you think that jockeys do nothing but sit there on their horses and have no effect on the outcome.

Horse racing is a sport for the horses, but not the jockeys, same with cars and car racing. Again I'm not diminishing the technical skills, athletic endurance etc of these athletes, but when the competitor is not the guy in the winners circle, then I'm not sure I would call it a sport.


I'd strongly suggest you try being a jockey or an Indy driver before you finalize that opinion. In a close race the skill of the jockey is often the decisive factor.

So what's the most demanding sport overall? I can't see any other choice than ice hockey, even though you couldn't pay me enough money to watch it for more than five minutes. Blinding speed, stamina, maximum hand/eye coordination, skating ability, unworldly reflexes, and a physicality that's exceeded only by rugby and American football. The only thing that diminishes it somewhat is that players don't play even close to the full 60 minutes, but IMO that's more than made up for by the intensity of the play while they're actually on the ice, which is more than 3 times as long as the average football player is doing anything other than standing around.

That is tough... I mean among team sports I don't really see any difference between soccer, hockey, basketball and football (or rugby even and others) Mind you, I imagine the essence of a sport as the way it's played in unorganized grade school type of play. Where you can't afford to get a full team and how you play it at it's essence. There is no players who are strictly offense or defense etc.

At the pro level, there is of course difference based simply because of how much money that they have. If the NFL all the sudden got to the point that it couldn't afford to pay more than $10,000 a year to it's players, you will see much more two way players than you do nowadays. same with hockey and basketball, the ability to substitute players will become something different and rarer.


I'm thinking of sports on the professional or at least college level. Below that there's just way too much variation in the level of skill and dedication. Slow pitch softball doesn't seem like much of a sport to me, unless it's on the very highest level.

But if you put a gun to my head, I would say that boxing is the most demanding sport. (or MMA or more and more extreme versions of the combat sport, although a good point you are making is that it doesn't require the coordination at the same level as hockey)

I was thinking of team sports when I wrote the above, but when individual sports come into the mix then it'd be boxing** without question.

** I'll let MMA aficionados make the case for that sport. YR might be the person to call on here.
   194. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5694146)
Who the hell would put a gun to your head in an argument about the most demanding sport?

I mean, other than Kevin Brown.


I know, but who knows with the world today. (Children concentration camps, all to force people to vote for a useless wall and more stringent immigration laws)
   195. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:50 PM (#5694147)
I'd strongly suggest you try being a jockey or an Indy driver before you finalize that opinion. In a close race the skill of the jockey is often the decisive factor.


Don't disagree at all, but they are not the ones doing the primary work. (I forgot to include in my definition "in which the primary means of propulsion is powered by the participant of the sport."----which is why I would include cycle racing in that definition, but not horse or car racing.)
   196. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5694149)
Is Hicks injured? His velocity is a little off - he's only sitting at 101.
   197. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5694150)
I'm thinking of sports on the professional or at least college level. Below that there's just way too much variation in the level of skill and dedication. Slow pitch softball doesn't seem like much of a sport to me, unless it's on the very highest level.


Agree, but that isn't the way my subjective opinion is looking at it. I think of the essence of the sport first and foremost, and that is something that has nothing to do with professional or organized versions of that sport, but instead the base way you would discover or become a participant of it. In theory Red Rover or Dodge Ball could be sports in the way I look at it, regardless of how the final product would look when it reached a professional level, but the essence of the sport would be determined by how it's played in parks throughout the country.


Softball is just a variation of baseball. I don't care if it's beer league softball, 8 year old softball or fast pitch softball, it's just a cosmetic change to baseball. You still swing a bat and run the bases, you still field and throw to a first baseman, a fly ball caught in the air is an out etc.

Same with 5 on 5 football or 3 on 3 basketball or even lingerie football....they are just variations on the sport.
   198. cardsfanboy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5694152)
Is Hicks injured? His velocity is a little off - he's only sitting at 101.


They are asking him to not throw 105mph anymore, simply to get more control and more deception. His k rate has gone up fairly dramatically since he stopped trying to overthrow for the radar gun.
   199. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5694153)
Interesting, thanks for the insight. Seems to be working.
   200. Bote Man the walk-off king Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5694155)
I mean, other than Kevin Brown.

And even then, only if you mail it in.
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