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Thursday, February 02, 2012

One Hall of Fame finally welcomes Tony Oliva

Vote Tony O: Destination La Romana.

Oliva isn’t the only former Twin feeling a bit frustrated these days about Hall of Fame voting.

There’s Jack Morris, baseball’s winningest pitcher of the 1980s and author of arguably the greatest Game 7 pitching performance in World Series history… “He go next year,” Oliva predicted. “They give him a big push this year.”

There’s Jim Kaat, a 283-game winner who fell two votes short in the most recent balloting by the Golden Era Committee. “There’s a lot of guys — Jim Kaat, Luis Tiant,” Oliva said. “I don’t know what the Veteran’s Committee wants.”

And, there’s Oliva. He’ll have to wait until 2014 for another chance with the Golden Era Committee, which meets every three years.

He’s 73 now. With any luck, he’ll be 76 the next time he comes up for election — but nobody has that guarantee.

“We no have too much time, you know?” Oliva said of himself, Kaat and others. “We don’t live forever. We only have one life. “I mention to them, the guy who no make it now, he have to wait three years. A lot of those guys (being considered) will be 90 — why they have to wait three more years? “Why it not like the young players? They (are eligible for election) every year. I no care what group they consider.”

Repoz Posted: February 02, 2012 at 06:24 AM | 10 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: hall of fame, history, twins

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1. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 02, 2012 at 07:37 AM (#4051821)

Are there a lot of papers still using the "he put pee-pee in your Coke" style of quotation?

2. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: February 02, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4051880)

Oliva had a great prime from ages 25 through 27: 18.5 WAR in just those three years. The problem is that it isn't an awesome prime, and it's most of his argument for the Hall. There are 60 players (post-1893) who had greater three-year primes at ages 25-27 alone, and they include Roy White and Chuck Knoblauch. And Oliva's good defense is part of that equation. If you look just to his hitting, he had 100 WAR batting runs from ages 25-27, and there are 99 players with a better total just between those two ages, including Bobby Murcer and Bobby Abreu and some guy named Mike Smith who was an outfielder for the 1893-95 Pittsburgh Pirates.

Sorry if I seem to be raining on Oliva's complaining :) He was a terrific "pure hitter" and at his peak would have improved just about any team he'd have played for. But he doesn't have a real strong HOF case unless your Hall is very large and very primey. (He did of course have one other great year, in 1970, and then a batting championship in limited play in '71, but that's still not a very complete resumé.)

3. DL from MN Posted: February 02, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4051899)

If the BBWAA would quit electing guys like Jim Rice then Oliva probably would be able to accept being on the wrong side of the line.

4. AROM Posted: February 02, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4051931)

Oliva had a great prime from ages 25 through 27: 18.5 WAR in just those three years.

Oliva played at that same level for 8 consecutive years though, 41 WAR from 1964-1971. There are a lot fewer people who sustained that excellence for 8 years than who did it for 3.

He would probably be in the Hall if he had 11-12 years like that. I'm not going to say "if he had stayed healthy" because staying healthy is a big part of a player's value and there are hundreds or thousands who have the same lament.

Oliva should have been in the majors quicker though. He played 3 years in the minors and they are quite impressive. Yet he had a total of 16 AB before age 25, then finally got to play and led the league in batting and total bases as a rookie. While it appears the Twins moved him a bit too slow, his late start was also due to him not coming over from Cuba until he was 22.

5. DL from MN Posted: February 02, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4051949)

> not coming over from Cuba until he was 22

Be careful with Oliva's age. He was using his brother's identity. It isn't like the Twins were certain he was 24 and let him stagnate in the minors.

6. oscar madisox Posted: February 02, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4052038)

Indeed. News reports at the time of his 1972 knee surgery indicated he was just 30 years old, which would have made him 22 when he was tearing up the AL in 1964. It's now known he was three years older. Had the Twins known his true age it's possible they would have not have had him in the low minors in 61 and 62, and perhaps he plays in the majors full-time in 1963. But even if you take his 63 numbers in Dallas and move them directly to the Twins (23-74-.304, .342 OBP, .519 slugging, I don't know how many WAR, maybe between 4 and 5, numbers he could have produced given how well he played in 64) he's still likely not a hall of famer.

7. Bob Evans Posted: February 02, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4052143)

Whatever his age, he was tearing it up in the minors, and he immediately hit in the majors (led AL in runs, hits, doubles, batting, total bases). Why would you give a guy 500 PA in the Sally League if he was hitting .350? Were they that stocked at AA? Then all the next year he rocked AAA. Weird, to me.

OTOH I wonder what the story was behind moving Bob Allison to 1B in '64 and leaving Killebrew in LF.

8. AROM Posted: February 02, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4052144)

OK, so at the time they thought they had signed a 19 year old in 61, and started a 22 year old rookie in 1964?

If that's the case, probably a good thing he lied about his age to start. Twins may have never bothered to sign him if they new he was 22.

9. AROM Posted: February 02, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4052165)

According to his baseball card he was considered 23 as a rookie, turning 24 in mid season (July 1940 Birth date).

http://1965topps.blogspot.com/2011/06/340-tony-oliva.html

Even with that information, it is surprising the Twins didn't have him starting earlier. If he were a bat-only type of player, it would be understandable. Most great hitters who are fast and athletic, as Tony was at the time, get their chances a bit earlier than he did.

10. DL from MN Posted: February 02, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4052201)

The Twins actually released him just after signing him and only re-signed him after the minor league manager from Charlotte said he liked the kid. The Twins of that era also traded Nettles for Tiant and then released Tiant after his injury. They thought Allison at 1B and Killebrew in LF was a good idea.

Oliva also came over with absolutely no English skills. He said he ate hamburgers at restaurants for years because that's all he knew how to order. They used that same idea in the movie Sugar.

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Thursday, February 02, 2012

One Hall of Fame finally welcomes Tony Oliva

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