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Tuesday, April 08, 2014

Orioles’ Chris Davis says Hank Aaron is HR king

Had no idea Crayola’s Dry Erase Flash Cards: Numbers & Counting set had gone national.

The question caught Chris Davis off guard, a bit like the avalanche of publicity that engulfed the Baltimore Orioles slugger last season when he said he thought the real single-season home run record was Roger Maris’ 61, not Barry Bonds’ 73.

Given that, does Davis consider Hank Aaron’s 755 home runs the real career record, over Bonds’ 762?

Davis hadn’t pondered the notion, but he’s exceedingly cooperative with the news media and not afraid to share his opinion. After thinking about it a bit, he cast his lot with Aaron.

“I think you have to look at the body of work that not only Hank Aaron put in but also Barry Bonds,” Davis told USA TODAY Sports. “Bonds was a great player for a long time. But it’s hard to say that Hank Aaron’s record isn’t the legitimate home run record because of all the allegations, the accusations regarding Bonds.”

...But the legacy of the steroid era remains palpable, especially in the skepticism that arises whenever a hitter breaks out in an unexpected homer spree, as was the case with the Toronto Blue Jays’ Jose Bautista in 2010 and Davis last season.

So, for this home run champion, the logical choice as all-time king is Aaron.

Said Davis: “It’s hard for me to go against the old-timer, so to speak.”

Repoz Posted: April 08, 2014 at 05:28 AM | 72 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history

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   1. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 08, 2014 at 06:37 AM (#4681648)
Well, that's what you get when people look for reasons to worship their boyhood heroes.
   2. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: April 08, 2014 at 08:29 AM (#4681667)
For me, the real single-season record is held by George Hall.
   3. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 08:29 AM (#4681668)
Yeah, but what does Chris Davis know? He's just an elite major league power hitter. It's not as though he has a law degree, or even an associates degree in internet sophistry.
   4. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: April 08, 2014 at 08:56 AM (#4681678)
For many years, Barry Bonds has been the only athlete I've ever heard mentioned as a cheater in actual conversations IRL. All the hatred has passed to him. I wonder if we'll actually get to a point where Roger Clemens and Sammy Sosa get into the Hall of Fame before he does.
   5. Spectral Posted: April 08, 2014 at 09:26 AM (#4681695)
Lots of people think lots of things that are just plain factually wrong. I guess this is one of those things.
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 09:30 AM (#4681702)
Also, the Montreal Expos were the 1994 World Champions, Al Gore was President from 2001-2004, and I helped my HS baseball team win state senior year.

I like pretending.
   7. JE (Jason) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4681714)
I helped my HS baseball team win state senior year.

Didn't you also say you could throw that football over them mountains?
   8. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: April 08, 2014 at 09:51 AM (#4681720)
I say the 1983 Orioles are the current World Series winner.
   9. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:10 AM (#4681740)
Yeah, but what does Chris Davis know? He's just an elite major league power hitter. It's not as though he has a law degree, or even an associates degree in internet sophistry.


Huh. Today I learned that you need a law degree to determine that 62 is bigger than 55. Who knew?
   10. Into the Void Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4681783)
Huh. Today I learned that you need a law degree to determine that 62 is bigger than 55. Who knew?


There you go with all that crazy internet sophistry again.
   11. Canker Soriano Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:46 AM (#4681786)
Today I learned that you need a law degree to determine that 62 is bigger than 55. Who knew?

Res ipsa loquitur.
   12. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4681795)
Yeah, but what does Chris Davis know? He's just an elite major league power hitter. It's not as though he has a law degree, or even an associates degree in internet sophistry.

Comedy gold! I miss my early years on this site when I used to get into arguments and get all serious about them. Now I just chuckle at a lot of this. Even a certain Nationals fan can't get me riled anymore. You knuckleheads have either broken my spirit or made me into some kind of indestructible super brain. So curse you jerks! or thank you jerks! as soon as I figure out which it is.
   13. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4681797)
So curse you jerks! or thank you jerks! as soon as I figure out which it is.


Por que no los dos?
   14. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4681810)
the Baltimore Orioles slugger last season when he said he thought the real single-season home run record was Roger Maris’ 61, not Barry Bonds’ 73.

Given that, does Davis consider Hank Aaron’s 755 home runs the real career record, over Bonds’ 762?

Davis hadn’t pondered the notion,


Wow. His pondering seems to be remarkably narrowly compartmentalized.
   15. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 08, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4681811)
The "HR totals among the top 10 that I'm most impressed by":

Ruth 714
Aaron 755
Mays 660
Bonds 762

   16. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:06 AM (#4681822)
I'm actually the stolen base king.
   17. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4681823)
The "real" HR champion isn't a matter of "fact." It's an exercise in evaluating "facts" in the pursuit of, and with an eye toward determining, higher truths.

This really isn't that hard to understand. Feigning an inability to understand it is internet sophistry, pretty much definitionally.
   18. tshipman Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4681826)
Looking forward to Chris Davis being out of baseball in a few years.

His second half splits: .245/.339/.515

Elite power hitter my ass. More like guy who lucked into 20 mistakes in the first half of last year.
   19. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4681875)
The "real" HR champion isn't a matter of "fact."


Yes it is. It's simple math. One number is higher than the other, period. That makes it the record. Saying Aaron's "clean" number is more impressive than Barry's "dirty" one is a legit opinion, of course, but it doesn't change statistical facts.

Looking forward to Chris Davis being out of baseball in a few years.

His second half splits: .245/.339/.515

Elite power hitter my ass. More like guy who lucked into 20 mistakes in the first half of last year.


Yeah. I know it's completely irrational (but honestly, isn't most sports hatred?), but Miggy C is one of my all time favorite players so I do have some dislike for Davis for costing Cabrera back to back Triple Crowns with what was very likely just a fluke season.
   20. Spectral Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4681876)
The "real" HR champion isn't a matter of "fact."

The sophistry is not where you think it lies.
   21. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4681880)
The sophistry is not where you think it lies.


Thread won. Close it down.
   22. Manny Coon Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4681882)
the Baltimore Orioles slugger last season when he said he thought the real single-season home run record was Roger Maris’ 61, not Barry Bonds’ 73.


This is convenient if you're currently playing because it makes challenging or breaking the record a much easier task.
   23. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4681884)
I hit 354 home runs one year as Frank Thomas in MVP Baseball.
   24. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4681885)
Yes it is. It's simple math. One number is higher than the other, period.

No one denies that Bonds hit more home runs in his career than Aaron. Whether that makes him the "legitimate" or "real" home run "champion" is the higher truth TFA and Davis were exploring.

Saying Aaron's "clean" number is more impressive than Barry's "dirty" one is a legit opinion, of course, but it doesn't change statistical facts.

That's what Davis said, or pretty close. He used the term "legitimate."

   25. Spectral Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4681891)
Whether that makes him the "legitimate" or "real" home run "champion" is the higher truth TFA and Davis were exploring.

In my experience, people talk about "higher truth" in a context where what they're really referring to is a personal gut feeling that they have about something. That can be interesting and lead to some neat conversation, but it's not a higher form of truth than a brute fact in any meaningful sense. Worse, people often use "higher truth" to obfuscate when things that they've claimed to be actually true turn out to be false.
   26. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:48 AM (#4681897)
Whether that makes him the "legitimate" or "real" home run "champion" is the higher truth TFA and Davis were exploring.


Ah, I see! You (and Davis) were expressing doubts about Bonds's true paternity. All has become clear.

I'm sure that he would be willing to provide suitable documentation, such as a birth certificate, if necessary.
   27. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:48 AM (#4681898)
In my experience, people talk about "higher truth" in a context where what they're really referring to is a personal gut feeling that they have about something.


No. YHWH actually appeared to Id in the form of a not-quite-burning, but definitely almost smoldering aloe plant and revealed to him the higher truth of this matter.
   28. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4681901)
In my experience, people talk about "higher truth" in a context where what they're really referring to is a personal gut feeling that they have about something.


Well, that depends on the precise meaning of terms like "higher" and "truth", doesn't it?
   29. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4681914)
the Baltimore Orioles slugger last season when he said he thought the real single-season home run record was Roger Maris’ 61, not Barry Bonds’ 73.

This is convenient if you're currently playing because it makes challenging or breaking the record a much easier task.


That's what I thought last year when Davis made that comment too. Of course he considers 61 the "true" single season record. He had a much better shot at hitting 62 than he did of hitting 74.

I'm glad no one has hit between 62-72 homers since Bonds broke the SS record so we don't have to hear much about this "true record" type of nonsense.
   30. Morton's Fork Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4681918)
I'm sure that he would be willing to provide suitable documentation, such as a birth certificate, if necessary.

You can show me as many birth certificates as you like; I will still maintain that Bonds can't be the home run champion because he was born in Kenya.
   31. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4681926)
His second half splits: .245/.339/.515

Elite power hitter my ass.


His second half ISO would have been the 2nd best in baseball, behind only Miguel Cabrera. My ass.


   32. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:14 PM (#4681928)
Saying Aaron's "clean" number is more impressive than Barry's "dirty" one is a legit opinion, of course, but it doesn't change statistical facts.

That's what Davis said, or pretty close. He used the term "legitimate."


But you could apply this logic to anything. Maddux's ERA in 1994/1995 and Pedro's in 2000 are probably more impressive than whatever deadball era number holds the actual record. Carew's .388 in 1977, Brett's .390 in 1980, and Gwynn's .394 in 1994 are all (IMO) much more impressive than all the .400 seasons of the 1920's. It doesn't make them records.

"More impressive" does not equal "record." Nor does it even have a legit argument to be considered a record. Debating value across different era's can be fun, but denying statistical facts just comes across as delusional, IMO.
   33. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4681932)
I'm glad no one has hit between 62-72 homers since Bonds broke the SS record so we don't have to hear much about this "true record" type of nonsense.

Of course. The legitimacy of Bonds's records is something from which the anti-antis have been averting their gazes for years. They're still in abject denial, even as the majority of the baseball world renders their uncontrovertable verdict on the matter.
   34. Nasty Nate Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4681938)
Of course. The legitimacy of Bonds's records is something from which the anti-antis have been averting their gazes for years. They're still in abject denial, even as the majority of the baseball world renders their uncontrovertable verdict on the matter.


The denial is not where you think it lies.
   35. BDC Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:26 PM (#4681941)
It's an exercise in evaluating "facts" in the pursuit of, and with an eye toward determining, higher truths

OK, Hank Aaron is the all-time leader in home runs by a guy we all agree is a mensch.

That was easy.
   36. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:30 PM (#4681944)
The legitimacy of Bonds's records is something from which the anti-antis have been averting their gazes for years.


I hear Bonds isn't the legitimate king because he's actually the incestuous bastard of the Queen Regent and her brother!
   37. Nasty Nate Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4681946)
I hear Bonds isn't the legitimate king because he's actually the incestuous bastard of the Queen Regent and her brother!


Is this some cruel jape?

Was Bonds' elbow pad a lobstered steel gauntlet?

Can they drug test for Milk of the Poppy?

Was Bonds at the tourney at Dan Haren Hall in the year of the false spring?
   38. Lassus Posted: April 08, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4681950)
I'm actually the stolen base king.

I have bad news.

That Meatloaf song was not about you.
   39. Ron J2 Posted: April 08, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4681976)
#19 Leaving aside the whole "clean" "dirty", Aaron would clearly have hit a lot more HR playing in the same offensive context as Bonds. He spent his prime either in a fairly tough HR park or in pitching dominated leagues (most of the 60s, particularly after the strike zone change) or both.

There's a reason his career high in HR came at 37.
   40. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 01:25 PM (#4681992)
There's a reason his career high in HR came at 37.

Amps?
   41. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4682016)
#19 Leaving aside the whole "clean" "dirty", Aaron would clearly have hit a lot more HR playing in the same offensive context as Bonds. He spent his prime either in a fairly tough HR park or in pitching dominated leagues (most of the 60s, particularly after the strike zone change) or both.


Sure. And that kind of stuff is fun to ponder. But debating what COULD have been a record if circumstances were different is not the same thing as accepting what IS a record based on what actually happened.

On the same note, Clemens, RJ, Seaver, etc, could have won 30 games a year with peak ERA's in the 1.20's or so had they pitched in the deadball era. Gwynn, Boggs, and Carew could've hit .400 a few times if they played in the 1920's.
   42. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4682035)
But debating what COULD have been a record if circumstances were different is not the same thing as accepting what IS a record based on what actually happened.

Someone cheating their way to a record is (correctly) seen as fundamentally different from benefitting from different circumstances. Bob Gibson didn't cheat his way to his 1968 ERA, though he certainly benefitted from circumstances.
   43. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: April 08, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4682040)
SugarBear is right, it's all about context. That's why Barry Bonds hitting 762 home runs against powerful, steroid-fueled pitching is a lot more impressive than Hank Aaron hitting only 755 against weak, amphetimine-fueled pitching. If Bonds played in the 60s and 70s why he'd have hit 855 home runs I say!
   44. Long Time Listener, First Time Caller Posted: April 08, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4682054)
Ah yes, who can forget that rule on the books that Bonds broke en route to 762. One of the most sacred rules in all of sports, so sacred that they didn't even bother coming up with a punishment (or a rule) for it
   45. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4682070)
#42 - Yes, cuz Bonds was the only player in MLB that had access to steroids. They had a strict testing regimen that they applied to everyone but him.

Everyone from his era played under the same rules (or lack thereof) and had the same opportunties. That sounds like a simple benefit of the circumstances to me, just like Gibson's 1968.
   46. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 03:04 PM (#4682091)
#42 - Yes, cuz Bonds was the only player in MLB that had access to steroids.


We don't know what Bonds had access to.
   47. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 08, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4682102)
This all amounts to "Barry Bonds will never be the king of my feelings."

Philip K. Dick said: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
   48. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 08, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4682104)
We don't know what Bonds had access to.


Technically speaking, we don't know what any of them had access to.
   49. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 08, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4682107)
Everyone from his era played under the same rules (or lack thereof) and had the same opportunties.

And everyone in 1968 had the same opportunity to doctor the ball, cork their bat, or take roids. But guess what? When a guy actually takes the opportunity, he delegitimizes his statistical output.
   50. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4682116)
And everyone in 1968 had the same opportunity to doctor the ball, cork their bat, or take roids. But guess what? When a guy actually takes the opportunity, he delegitimizes his statistical output.


Really? I can't think of anyone from Gibson's era whose numbers have been largely delegitimized for doing any of those things. Seems like only in the last decade or so critics have started doing that, and only with modern steroids inflated numbers, not with any previous methods players used to inflate their numbers by "cheating."
   51. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4682117)
Do you honestly think that if Gibson admitted tomorrow that he'd doctored the ball like crazy throughout his 1968 season that the majority of people would see his numbers as less pure or legitimate? I don't.
   52. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 08, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4682164)
That Meatloaf song was not about you.


You're free to believe as much, but at the end of the day, no matter what you choose to believe, I still won't do that.
   53. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 08, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4682167)
We don't know what Bonds had access to.


The cheap seats, 762 times.
   54. The District Attorney Posted: April 08, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4682281)
Poz:
Henry Aaron is NOT The Home Run King. The sounds like I’m going to follow with some rant about Barry Bonds breaking his record and how terrible that was ... but I’m not. My thought here has nothing to do with that. Henry Aaron is not the Home Run King because that silly title would do nothing but diminish his greatness.

Pete Rose IS The Hit King. That title fits him, and it fits his career which was a relentless pursuit of hits. That’s really what it comes down to. Rose loved playing baseball, but hits were his business just as sausages were Abe Froman’s business and burgers are that king’s business and horror novels are Stephen King’s business. Rose needed to keep score, that was his great strength and tragic flaw, and his ambition was to be The Hit King. Other things did not play out as he had hoped. But he got his 4,256 hits and he had his coronation.

Henry Aaron was not a great home run hitter. To call him that diminishes him. Frank Howard was a great home run hitter. Harmon Killebrew was a great home run hitter. Reggie Jackson was a great home run hitter. Henry Aaron was a great HITTER -- any qualifier put before that word cheapens his genius.
   55. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 08, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4682295)
I can't think of anyone from Gibson's era whose numbers have been largely delegitimized for doing any of those things.

Ford Frick was a protector of the game's legacy, before he became a revisionist crony, before he became a pioneer of unskewed history. I wonder what he'll be in another 20 years?
   56. cardsfanboy Posted: April 08, 2014 at 06:32 PM (#4682322)
Of course. The legitimacy of Bonds's records is something from which the anti-antis have been averting their gazes for years. They're still in abject denial, even as the majority of the baseball world renders their uncontrovertable verdict on the matter.


The determining voice in whether a record is legitimate or not is the MLB. And they have very clearly stated that Bonds is the legitimate homerun record holder. Anyone that is denying this, isn't talking about legitimacy, but instead of in their personal opinion.

Just like when I say I don't consider Golf, Nascar or Bowling a sport, it doesn't mean I don't think they meet the text book definition of sport, it just means in my own close minded mind, I don't consider them a sport, if someone wants to argue legitimacy, or facts, I absolutely 100% lose that argument, since I'm making up my own definition which has no bearing on what the rest of the world considers a sport. Same thing, here. There is no debate or doubt who is the legitimate homerun champion(record holder), the one body that makes that decision has ruled on it. You can talk from your viewpoint as much as you want, but if you don't acknowledge the actual truth of the matter, then you are just being a dumbass.
   57. cardsfanboy Posted: April 08, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4682333)
I can't think of anyone from Gibson's era whose numbers have been largely delegitimized for doing any of those things.


Just to name two that haven't really been delegitimized is Norm Cash and Gaylord Perry.
   58. vivaelpujols Posted: April 08, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4682344)
No one denies that Bonds hit more home runs in his career than Aaron. Whether that makes him the "legitimate" or "real" home run "champion" is the higher truth TFA and Davis were exploring.


You know there is an interesting philisophical debate on what constitute's a "higher truth". Some people like to look at hard facts, others like to go with intuition and morals. SBB uses the "boner method", where whichever player gives him the most wood has the all time record.
   59. Booey Posted: April 08, 2014 at 07:24 PM (#4682359)
#56 - Nailed it.

It would be like arguing whether Bonds IS a HOFer instead of whether he should be. His plaque isn't in there, so he's not. That's an undebatable fact. Asking whether he SHOULD be a HOFer is a different argument entirely, and one that's open to opinion.

The only party that gets to decide which HR total will be recognized as the record has declared that Barry has it, so that makes it a fact. Whether or not someone disagrees with that decision doesn't turn fact into opinion. I'm not going to go around stating that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Clemens are in the HOF just cuz I think they should be.
   60. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 08, 2014 at 11:10 PM (#4682543)
#56 - Nailed it.

It would be like arguing whether Bonds IS a HOFer instead of whether he should be. His plaque isn't in there, so he's not. That's an undebatable fact. Asking whether he SHOULD be a HOFer is a different argument entirely, and one that's open to opinion.

The only party that gets to decide which HR total will be recognized as the record has declared that Barry has it, so that makes it a fact. Whether or not someone disagrees with that decision doesn't turn fact into opinion. I'm not going to go around stating that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Clemens are in the HOF just cuz I think they should be.


All this is like saying that the Earth is round or that the Red Sox are the reigning champions, but you're still going to find people who keep trying to negate reality.
   61. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 09, 2014 at 07:42 AM (#4682633)
Just to name two that haven't really been delegitimized is Norm Cash and Gaylord Perry.


You can't bring up their names without references to 1961 and spitballs coming out of the woodwork.
   62. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 09, 2014 at 08:01 AM (#4682636)
The only party that gets to decide which HR total will be recognized as the record has declared that Barry has it, so that makes it a fact.

Already stipulated. Barry Bonds is the recognized career HR leader. But the question is whether that record is true and/or legitimate.
   63. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 09, 2014 at 08:11 AM (#4682644)
But the question is whether that record is true and/or legitimate.


And the answer to that question, as determined by MLB, is "yes".
   64. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: April 09, 2014 at 08:20 AM (#4682649)
Everyone from his era played under the same rules (or lack thereof) and had the same opportunties. That sounds like a simple benefit of the circumstances to me, just like Gibson's 1968.
Or Babe Ruth and all white baseball.

WRT Amps, no one says Mantle was a cheater. And here's the killer, under today's rules Mantle would have been gone. Mickey Mantle. Willie Mays. If today's frothing masses had their way, we'd have never had Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle. Or for that matter, if you have read "If I had a Hammer", Hank Aaron.

   65. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: April 09, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4682730)
Just to name two that haven't really been delegitimized is Norm Cash and Gaylord Perry.

Those are the two that HAVE been delegitimized, in that they are famous as "The corked bat guy" and "The spitball guy". Although they were never legitimized to begin with.
   66. Booey Posted: April 09, 2014 at 10:17 AM (#4682758)
You can't bring up their names without references to 1961 and spitballs coming out of the woodwork.

Those are the two that HAVE been delegitimized, in that they are famous as "The corked bat guy" and "The spitball guy". Although they were never legitimized to begin with.


Just cuz people occasionally mention their cheating doesn't mean their feats have been "delegitimized." I've never heard anyone suggest that Cash's batting title should be retroactively taken away and awarded to whoever finished 2nd, nor have I heard anyone say that Perry should be removed from the HOF. People suggest both those things and more when it comes to steroid users*.

* The removing someone from the HOF thing is in the event that a current HOFer later admits or gets outed for juicing, of course
   67. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 09, 2014 at 10:23 AM (#4682771)
Just cuz people occasionally mention their cheating doesn't mean their feats have been "delegitimized. I've never heard anyone suggest that Cash's batting title should be retroactively taken away and awarded to whoever finished 2nd, nor have I heard anyone say that Perry should be removed from the HOF. People suggest both those things and more when it comes to steroid users*.

* The removing someone from the HOF thing is in the event that a current HOFer later admits or gets outed for juicing, of course"


That's true, but just because many people think that steroid users should be barred from the HoF doesn't also mean that all of those people want to play The Commissar Vanishes with the record books. Those are two entirely separate issues.
   68. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 09, 2014 at 10:31 AM (#4682783)
And the answer to that question, as determined by MLB, is "yes".

Got sophistry?
   69. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 09, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4682844)
Got sophistry?


Why, you got a surplus you're trying to sell?
   70. Booey Posted: April 09, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4682895)
That's true, but just because many people think that steroid users should be barred from the HoF doesn't also mean that all of those people want to play The Commissar Vanishes with the record books. Those are two entirely separate issues.


Agreed. But there are still plenty of people who DO think the record keepers should go nuts with a bottle of whiteout when it comes to the stats of the last 20 years (my Dad, for one). Nomar suggested a few months back that we should remove players from the HOF if it ever comes out that they used. I've never heard anyone suggest doing that to Cash or Perry or any other "cheaters" from their generation. There ARE a few people who say that everything prior to integration should be asterisked, but that's not quite the same thing (and it's still stupid, IMO).
   71. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: April 09, 2014 at 12:38 PM (#4682927)
Agreed. But there are still plenty of people who DO think the record keepers should go nuts with a bottle of whiteout when it comes to the stats of the last 20 years (my Dad, for one).

Yeah, I've seen plenty of people like your Dad, who confuse a an understandable (to me, at least) disinclination to honor steroid users with a plaque in Cooperstown with a crazy idea that you can Commissar Vanish the entire record book in order to (somehow) keep it pure. The problem is that while acting on the first sentiment is easy, to "purify" the record book is literally an impossible task, and putting asterisks next to certain cherished records would only raise more questions than it would resolve.

Nomar suggested a few months back that we should remove players from the HOF if it ever comes out that they used. I've never heard anyone suggest doing that to Cash or Perry or any other "cheaters" from their generation.

I've often heard that suggestion, but I don't agree with Nomar. IMO the disgrace and mockery that would accompany those players' outing would be far more punishment than the symbolic removal of their plaques.

(Although I could see one minor benefit of such a post-facto removal: The prospect of a fan at a card show telling Johnny Juicer to add the year he was removed from the HOF alongside the obligatory "HOF YYYY" addendum that HOF members now place with their signatures.)
   72. zenbitz Posted: April 09, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4683319)
Obligitory Giants' Fan perspective:

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2014/4/9/5598566/barry-bonds-the-true-home-run-king-yellow-king-ray-king

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