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Friday, November 24, 2017

Ortiz: Plea to consider ‘character’ alters Hall of Fame vote | Jose de Jesus Ortiz | stltoday.com

Why are so many people actively working to make the Hall of Fame completely irrelevant?

Jim Furtado Posted: November 24, 2017 at 08:52 AM | 104 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame

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   1. I Am Not a Number Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:16 AM (#5580667)
Where do you draw the line on character flaws that can be forgiven versus those that cannot? Confirmed steroid use? Suspected steroid use? Perjury? Racism? Tax evasion? Marital infidelity? A grumpy disposition?

The urge to place professional athletes on a pedestal and romanticize their character and integrity seems naive and anachronistic. Are we still so desperate for heroes that we need to invent them?
   2. Adam Starblind Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:21 AM (#5580669)
Are we still so desperate for heroes that we need to invent them?


I am. OH GOD please help us.
   3. Baldrick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:49 AM (#5580676)
He's voting against Jones because of some bad tweets, but is voting FOR Clemens, who is clearly an objectively terrible person.

I just can't.
   4. Russ Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:57 AM (#5580680)
I am. OH GOD please help us.


/winkandfingergun.gif

   5. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5580694)
Double post
   6. Captain Supporter Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:08 AM (#5580696)
Lets just say that Jose de Jesus Ortiz is not going to ever be a candidate for the journalist Hall of Fame. The column is downright embarrassing. Naive, puerile, and inconsistent in its standards. We learn that Barry Bonds lacks character, but Roger Clemens is a gem among men. We learn that Chipper Jones is a bad guy because he does not support illegal immigration and made a really dumb tweet about Sandy Hook (yes, it really was dumb) which he subsequently recanted. We learn that Sosa, Ramirez and Sheffield do not measure up to Clemens because....well, just because they don't
   7. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:09 AM (#5580697)
Where do you draw the line on character flaws that can be forgiven versus those that cannot? Confirmed steroid use? Suspected steroid use? Perjury? Racism? Tax evasion? Marital infidelity? A grumpy disposition?

What would de Jesus do?
   8. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:18 AM (#5580703)
Where do you draw the line on character flaws that can be forgiven versus those that cannot?


Dick pix.
   9. The Duke Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:33 AM (#5580708)
If anything this column confirms that the wrong people are voting for the hall of fame. Why don’t they donut like the singing shows : 1/2 crowd vote, 1/2 a handful of judges and then ignore it all and put in who the Hall wants
   10. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 12:16 PM (#5580715)
If anything this column confirms that the wrong people are voting for the hall of fame. Why don’t they donut like the singing shows : 1/2 crowd vote, 1/2 a handful of judges and then ignore it all and put in who the Hall wants

Whatever the merits of that suggestion, I'm not sure you'd applaud the results.

And just who is "the Hall", anyway?
   11. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 12:21 PM (#5580717)
He's voting against Jones because of some bad tweets,

I wouldn't vote against Jones because of those tweets, but if anyone seriously doubts whether Jones is an ignorant bigot, maybe they should read them. He makes Donald Trump seem like a statesman by comparison.

“Y’all think if they took all them gators they trap in Fla and La and put them in the Rio Grande, it wud stop the illegals from crossing? Jk” Jones tweeted on June 8, 2013.

Then on Feb. 6, 2015, Jones tweeted this gem: “So the FBI comes out and confirms that Sandy Hook was a hoax! Where is the outrage? What else are we being lied about? Waco? JFK? Pfff …”
   12. dog poop god Posted: November 24, 2017 at 12:43 PM (#5580725)
I take it there's no mention of Mindy McCready at the link?

Baseball players are by and large dumb and disreputable. We honor them for their feats on the field, not defects off of it.

So while I don't give a hoot about PEDs, that counts as on-the-field. As would betting on baseball.
   13. dog poop god Posted: November 24, 2017 at 12:46 PM (#5580726)
Who's dumber? People who tweet, or the people who read them religiously? The only real purpose served, beyond boosting nobodies to public prominence, is to rubberneck a wreck.

Helped elect Trump. 'Nuff said.
   14. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: November 24, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5580733)
About Jones, his tweets, and Trump: I don't like his (apparent) political leanings,but I am certainly not surprised by them.

After all, he is:
- a white, heterosexual guy,
- from Volusia County, Florida (which went for Trump 55-42 last year over Clinton)
- with a high school degree for educational attainment.

If you told me nothing else but those three things, I'd say there's at least a 70% chance he'd be a Trump voter in 2016.

Political leanings don't bug me with Curt Schilling, Chipper Jones, or anybody else when it comes to the HOF vote -but I suspect it hurts Schilling a lot more than it ever will Jones, probably because Jones doesn't go on radio shows and talk about it.
   15. QLE Posted: November 24, 2017 at 01:31 PM (#5580734)
In case anyone here sincerely wonders why the character clause as a justification of votes is a terrible idea.....
   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5580738)
Political leanings don't bug me with Curt Schilling, Chipper Jones, or anybody else when it comes to the HOF vote -but I suspect it hurts Schilling a lot more than it ever will Jones, probably because Jones doesn't go on radio shows and talk about it.

Probably so, and it's just stupid. Unless their political views were affecting either theirs or their teammates' play on the field, which I seriously doubt, those opinions have nothing to do with their HoF qualifications, and both of them should easily gain entry by any objective standards.
   17. Rennie's Tenet Posted: November 24, 2017 at 01:44 PM (#5580742)
I think that IF they have a character/integrity clause THEN the rules should invoke it before a player gets on the ballot. They already do this with banned players. Make the Hall go on record as to who isn't good enough.
   18. Adam Starblind Posted: November 24, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5580747)

Probably so, and it's just stupid. Unless their political views were affecting either theirs or their teammates' play on the field, which I seriously doubt, those opinions have nothing to do with their HoF qualifications, and both of them should easily gain entry by any objective standards.


But I also see the merits of "I don't want to vote for that a$$hole. F##k him."
   19. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 02:57 PM (#5580772)
Probably so, and it's just stupid. Unless their political views were affecting either theirs or their teammates' play on the field, which I seriously doubt, those opinions have nothing to do with their HoF qualifications, and both of them should easily gain entry by any objective standards.

But I also see the merits of "I don't want to vote for that a$$hole. F##k him."


I can sympathize, but they're being honored for their play on the field, not for their wokeness.
   20. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 24, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5580775)
Chipper Jones is a dumbass and believes dumbass things. Curt Schilling is actively evil.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5580784)
Chipper Jones is a dumbass and believes dumbass things. Curt Schilling is actively evil.

And then for Part 2 we present the Alternate History version of baseball, where the Red Sox wind up in Atlanta while the Braves remain in Boston.
   22. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 24, 2017 at 03:25 PM (#5580791)
I know you're more or less incapable of nuance at this point in your slide into dementia, Andy, but nothing I wrote there is a defense of Chipper. Hoss is a moron, but he's not actively attempting to make the world a worse place the way Schilling is. I fully expect him to crater into worse and worse Crazy Uncle In A Cabin In Montana territory as he ages. Not unlikely to make Joe Morgan's age-induced stupidity look good by comparison. And yet still, not *actively evil* like Schilling.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: November 24, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5580795)
What would de Jesus do?

Play a solid shortstop while hitting 260.
   24. Adam Starblind Posted: November 24, 2017 at 03:55 PM (#5580805)

I can sympathize, but they're being honored for their play on the field, not for their wokeness.


I'd like to see a voter write an article that "Curt Schilling is a Hall of Famer--and the VC should induct him after he is dead."
   25. Morty Causa Posted: November 24, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5580808)
Who's the HOF for? And when someone votes for a player, why are they voting as they do? Are those the deciding questions that should be asked if we are concerned with the legitimacy of such an institution? I think the HOF for the most will elect/select, and has elected/selected, the truly great. No question about it. No one argues whether Cobb, Wagner, Ruth, Williams, and the like really belong. This brouhaha is all about lesser candidates, and mostly it's about candidate at least three steps from the top-tier.

Why anyone should genuinely feel honored to be elected to the HOF by a self-appointed group of people whose qualifications are dubious at best should make us view the whole matter with an amused, tolerantly neglectful attitude. Why don't we? Because it's not about them in the end either. It's about us knocking the phantasmagorical other's dick in the dirt. Same as most confected controversies. Carry on.
   26. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 04:26 PM (#5580814)
I know you're more or less incapable of nuance at this point in your slide into dementia, Andy, but nothing I wrote there is a defense of Chipper. Hoss is a moron, but he's not actively attempting to make the world a worse place the way Schilling is. I fully expect him to crater into worse and worse Crazy Uncle In A Cabin In Montana territory as he ages. Not unlikely to make Joe Morgan's age-induced stupidity look good by comparison. And yet still, not *actively evil* like Schilling.

Nevertheless, from my vantage point in Del Boca Vista, I'd still love to see your reaction if those two assclowns** had mixed up their laundry on their way to the FAIR convention.

** who should both still be in the HoF
   27. bachslunch Posted: November 24, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5580817)
I say shame on Ortiz for caving in to Joe Morgan and his disgusting ilk.
   28. Captain Supporter Posted: November 24, 2017 at 05:55 PM (#5580825)
Without attempting to defend Chipper or Curt, I will say that the many people on this site who seem to equate their leftish leanings with truth, justice, and morality, and assign the conservative folk, particularly if they are from the <shudder> Southern part of the country, to a particular Dantean circle of hell of their own, give me quite a chuckle.

We have a lot of people here who seem to believe deep down that a vote for the sitting President really should in some way disqualify you from the Hall of Fame, or at least make you a charter member of the Hall of Evil. Get a grip, folks.

   29. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 24, 2017 at 06:16 PM (#5580827)
Supporting the current regime should be equated with felonious assault on the basic ideals of the republic. Such people should be removed from civilization for at least 10 years.
   30. JJ1986 Posted: November 24, 2017 at 06:30 PM (#5580828)
Without attempting to defend Chipper or Curt, I will say that the many people on this site who seem to equate their leftish leanings with truth, justice, and morality, and assign the conservative folk, particularly if they are from the <shudder> Southern part of the country, to a particular Dantean circle of hell of their own, give me quite a chuckle.

We have a lot of people here who seem to believe deep down that a vote for the sitting President really should in some way disqualify you from the Hall of Fame, or at least make you a charter member of the Hall of Evil. Get a grip, folks.
You seem unfamiliar with Schilling's body of work.
   31. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: November 24, 2017 at 06:48 PM (#5580830)
The current regime thinks child molestation is OK as long as you deny it and promise to vote a certain way. Their supporters are beyond deplorable.
   32. John DiFool2 Posted: November 24, 2017 at 06:52 PM (#5580831)
About Jones, his tweets, and Trump: I don't like his (apparent) political leanings,but I am certainly not surprised by them.

After all, he is:
- a white, heterosexual guy,
- from Volusia County, Florida (which went for Trump 55-42 last year over Clinton)
- with a high school degree for educational attainment.


He went to my high school, probably the most exclusive and prestigious HS in the county, at least. FWIW. Yes, some people in my class (he was c. 8 years ahead of me) were just as jerkish, if not more so. He still would get my vote.
   33. michaelplank has knowledgeable eyes Posted: November 24, 2017 at 07:07 PM (#5580833)
I'm no fanboy, but in what world is Chipper not overqualified? Like Bill James said about Rickey!, if you cut him in half you'd have two Hall of Famers. He'd have to have spent the last five years lighting puppies on fire to even merit a hesitation. Geez.
   34. dog poop god Posted: November 24, 2017 at 07:21 PM (#5580838)
"Curt Schilling is a Hall of Famer--and the VC should induct him after he is dead."

There's a Viet Cong HOF?
   35. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 24, 2017 at 07:42 PM (#5580842)
We have a lot of people here who seem to believe deep down that a vote for the sitting President really should in some way disqualify you from the Hall of Fame, or at least make you a charter member of the Hall of Evil.


Not at all. It does, however, disqualify you from claiming to have any functional synapses in your cerebral cortex.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:22 PM (#5580856)
Not at all. It does, however, disqualify you from claiming to have any functional synapses in your cerebral cortex.

It still shocks me that peoplecan't understand the concept that many people would rather have as President an immoral, incompetent, buffoon, who generally supports (or at least doesn't oppose) their interests, than an immoral, highly competent, schemer who universally opposes their interests.

Seriously, the more competent on thinks Hillary is, the less I want her as President. I would literally rather have a potted plant in the White House than anyone who could feasibly be nominated by the Democratic party,
   37. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:29 PM (#5580859)
It still shocks me that people can't understand the concept that many people would rather have as President an immoral, incompetent, buffoon, who generally supports (or at least doesn't oppose) their interests,

The scary thing about that it what you and your fellow Trump supporters consider your interests to be.
   38. Adam Starblind Posted: November 24, 2017 at 09:50 PM (#5580862)
It still shocks me that peoplecan't understand the concept that many people would rather have as President an immoral, incompetent, buffoon, who generally supports (or at least doesn't oppose) their interests, than an immoral, highly competent, schemer who universally opposes their interests.


Well, there's the fact that the buffoon seems to be compromised by the Russians.
   39. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 24, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5580863)
Point of order from #3: in this round of HOF voting it's not OK to simply say "Jones" or "Braves' great Jones" or something like that. You have to add the "Chipper", because Andruw is also on the ballot.

(I saw "Jones" and thought Andruw and was wondering what in the world he could be tweeting about that anyone would find controversial.)

Looking through this ballot, it's something of a who's who of the players who were big in the game during the period of my greatest fandom. It makes me feel old.
   40. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:08 PM (#5580870)
Yes Snapper. You put party over country. We know this already.
   41. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: November 24, 2017 at 11:30 PM (#5580875)
I would literally rather have a potted plant in the White House than anyone who could feasibly be nominated by the Democratic party


Thanks for making my point.

Point of order from #3: in this round of HOF voting it's not OK to simply say "Jones" or "Braves' great Jones" or something like that. You have to add the "Chipper", because Andruw is also on the ballot.


The names are printed. With little check boxes next to them.
   42. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 25, 2017 at 12:34 AM (#5580883)
I would literally rather have a potted plant in the White House than anyone who could feasibly be nominated by the Democratic party
Republicans are always complaining that liberals simplistically see all Republicans as evil. As Snapper shows us, Republicans are just projecting.
   43. John Northey Posted: November 25, 2017 at 01:30 AM (#5580888)
Even though I am 100% against Chipper's politics I'd vote him into the HOF in a second. (FYI: ran for the Green Party here in Canada a few years ago)

2726 hits, 468 HR, played a decent 3B, 303/401/529 slash line lifetime, his worst OPS+ in his career was at age 23 with a 108, every other year was over 115 with 7 full seasons over 150 (I don't count that 8 game season at 21 going 2 for 3 with a double and a walk). Solid in the post season too 287/409/456 but just 1 WS title. Whats not to like there? Not bad for a value draft pick eh? (big market Oakland got the guy everyone had ranked #1 overall - Todd Van Poppel - who ended with a slightly negative WAR. Killer first round with 2 guys over 80 for lifetime WAR in Jones & Mussina (20th overall) and 3 more in the 20's (Alex Fernandez, Rondell White, and Carl Everett).
   44. Lars6788 Posted: November 25, 2017 at 01:38 AM (#5580890)
Chipper might literally be a no-brainer - he had the fame too as far as being taunted by a big market city's fanbase and not shying away from the 'attention.'
   45. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: November 25, 2017 at 02:17 AM (#5580891)
[37] No kidding. I recall snapper being upset recently over the possibility of Ohtani getting paid below market value by coming to MLB early and calling it a robbery. But giving a deficit exploding tax cut to the very wealthy that actually raises taxes on many middle class workers is just like meh whatever.
   46. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2017 at 04:32 AM (#5580893)
It still shocks me that peoplecan't understand the concept that many people would rather have as President an immoral, incompetent, buffoon, who generally supports (or at least doesn't oppose) their interests, than an immoral, highly competent, schemer who universally opposes their interests.


Sounds like a potted plant would be the best of both worlds for you, actually.
   47. PreservedFish Posted: November 25, 2017 at 04:33 AM (#5580894)
Chipper might literally be a no-brainer


Chipper's a dolt, but this seems extreme. He probably has a brain.
   48. Morty Causa Posted: November 25, 2017 at 06:37 AM (#5580895)
43:

At one time, superficial stats like that would have meant a lot of black and gray ink. Those stats were accrued in the flubber-ball era, where he had the heart of his career. (And he is the only one with superficially glittering stats who got them playing during the height of the recent hitting era, and thus need to be appreciated with a grain of salt.) And he played in Atlanta, a very good home park for him. Is he really that much more impressive than Larry Walker (say)?
   49. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:02 AM (#5580902)
Chipper had 2600 more PAs than Walker. Walker produced at a slightly higher rate per PA, but Chipper played the equivalent of 4 seasons and change more than Walker, and always at an above-average rate.
   50. Morty Causa Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:07 AM (#5580903)
Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way is to acknowledge that Walker's career represents a greater concentration of excellence. There's less filler to his career.
   51. TomH Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:09 AM (#5580904)
48: Um.... how many ways can I show that's silly? Shal we compare Chipper's stats, say, using Neutralized Batting (correcting for era and home park), so we can see his OPS* would be .895, which is more than 30 points higher than George Brett, widely thought to be one of the best three 3B of all time?

Yes, Larry Walker could hit (AS well as Chipper, not Better), when he's healthy. So Chipper Jones is a healthier version of Walker who played a more important position.
   52. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:23 AM (#5580907)
[37] No kidding. I recall snapper being upset recently over the possibility of Ohtani getting paid below market value by coming to MLB early and calling it a robbery. But giving a deficit exploding tax cut to the very wealthy that actually raises taxes on many middle class workers is just like meh whatever.

Most of the people who think like snapper get their views from the likes of Rush and Fox News. In snapper's case, his views seem to derive more from the last five Cardinals of the New York Archdiocese.
   53. Baldrick Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:31 AM (#5580908)
Please take the political sniping to the OT thread.

Larry Walker is a deserving HOFer, and Chipper Jones is clearly significantly better than Walker. This is not complicated.
   54. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:47 AM (#5580911)
I know a lot of people wonder why certain voters (wealthy voters who vote for Hillary; lower-income voters who vote for Trump) vote "against their self-interest". This comes up a lot these day in the Alabama Senate race, where Roy Moore's strongest support remains with those who describe themselves as the most religious.

The problem here is that "self interest" really means "economic self interest" - and economics are not necessarily the primary driver of people's voting behavior. There are a lot of people who vote based on the Supreme Court picks. If you ask a Trump voter if they are still with him, the #1 reason they are still there is because of Neil Gorsuch. And when you think about it, the Supreme Court nomination process this winter and spring was probably the most functional thing Trump has executed on this year. He made a list of 20+ people he'd consider for SCOTUS, then promised to pick one of them if elected. Then, 11 days after getting sworn in, he picks one of the people on the list - somebody who is unquestionably conservative, qualified, and young.

Then, he largely gets out of the way, and lets Mitch McConnell get him through the process, which is completed successfully.

Trump could do almost anything, and for 30% of the population, because of the courts, they are with him. It's not always economics.
   55. Adam Starblind Posted: November 25, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5580914)
I was very surprised when I learned that Chipper was fairly clearly better than Ken Griffey, Jr. The latter was much more ballyhooed during their playing days. Griffey was also a no-brainer HOFer, and it takes a lot to be better than one of those.
   56. manchestermets Posted: November 25, 2017 at 09:42 AM (#5580916)
There's less filler to his career.


I think the point of 43 is that there's no filler to his career.


In snapper's case, his views seem to derive more from the last five Cardinals of the New York Archdiocese.


Well, they certainly don't derive from any of the reported words of Christ. I've rarely seen anyone more eager to cast the first stone.
   57. Gazizza, my Dilznoofuses! Posted: November 25, 2017 at 10:35 AM (#5580927)
I posted in a playoff discussion and was encouraged to post frequently, given that I've been around this site for more than fifteen years and have barely made 200 comments since registration was mandated.

Threads like this are why I don't participate more. This is a site that calls itself "Baseball for the Thinking Fan" but routinely has threads like this one where actual baseball discussion and thinking are lacking. This is why I (and I'm sure others) have largely moved on to other locations for our baseball discussions.
   58. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 25, 2017 at 10:39 AM (#5580928)
Which ones, I have some dick jokes I'd like to try out in a different venue.
   59. Adam Starblind Posted: November 25, 2017 at 11:04 AM (#5580930)
There's a lot of mean people on the site. And others who are merely arrogant or impolite. It detracts.
   60. John Northey Posted: November 25, 2017 at 11:14 AM (#5580931)
As a Canadian I want Walker in the HOF but I know Chipper was a better player overall. Health is important and consistency. To be honest I was surprised Chipper didn't get 3000 hits or 500 HR. He was close and never had a real bad year. He was just 2-3 years away from both milestones and was still productive (120+ OPS+ his last 3 years, an All-Star his last 2) so it is odd he didn't try to hang on for those milestones. Was he getting hurt a lot at the end?

Walker only had a sub 100 OPS+ his first year in just 20 games, so I don't worry about that. His next worst was a 110 at age 33. He had as many years over 160 as below 120 - 3 each. He also was still productive at the end a 130 OPS+ his last year in 100 games, 82 games the year before with a 154 OPS+. A shame he didn't go the AL and DH at that point for a few years to get over 400 HR (383 is what he ended with) as that might have pushed a few old school voters over the edge. His 2160 hits were too few to be a major plus, but cracking 2000 helps keep him from being eliminated by many voters. His postseasons were OK but not great with a 230/350/510 line. Like Barry Bonds he only got to one World Series and did great (357/438/929) but his team didn't.
   61. Rennie's Tenet Posted: November 25, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5580934)
Threads like this are why I don't participate more. This is a site that calls itself "Baseball for the Thinking Fan" but routinely has threads like this one where actual baseball discussion and thinking are lacking. This is why I (and I'm sure others) have largely moved on to other locations for our baseball discussions.


It detracts.


I agree with both of these posters. I found this site eleven years ago, when I sought informed opinion about the special induction for Negro Leaguers. This is not the sort of thing I was seeking then, and I'm sure not interested in it here now.
   62. Booey Posted: November 25, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5580935)
I was very surprised when I learned that Chipper was fairly clearly better than Ken Griffey, Jr. The latter was much more ballyhooed during their playing days. Griffey was also a no-brainer HOFer, and it takes a lot to be better than one of those.


I wouldn't say that Chipper was clearly better than Griffey. In fact, they look about as identical as you can get:

Griffey - 83.6 WAR, 46.5 WAA (52.9 peak WAA)
Chipper - 85.0 WAR, 53.2 WAA

They got there in very different ways, though. It's the basic peak vs career argument. Despite the impressive career totals, Griffey is very much a peak player, with 4 seasons (adjusting for the strike) better than Jones best (1993, 1994, 1996, 1997). But of course the last half of his career was injury plagued and fairly unimpressive, producing negative WAA in 8 of his last 10 seasons.

Chipper of course was the opposite: his career high in WAR was "only" 7.6, but as noted above he literally never had a bad season, and he kept adding to his WAA total right up until the end.

I honestly don't know which one I'd prefer.
   63. Baldrick Posted: November 25, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5580939)
IMO Griffey was clearly better. He had an additional level above and beyond anything Chipper. But Chipper stayed good far longer, and if someone wanted to go with the steadier career, I wouldn't necessarily object.
   64. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 25, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5580943)
Chipper's talent advantage over Griffey---and I'm not saying this sarcastically---was in his greater ability to stay healthy during his prime years. But since they're both first ballot HoFers, trying to rank them with any precision is a wholly subjective exercise.
   65. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 25, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5580944)
The difference between Chipper and Walker is ~2600 PA, ~12.5 WAR, and ~5 WAA. BBRef tells me that's roughly the career of Danny Taylor had he been a hair better, or Pinky May if he'd been two hairs better. I'd never heard of either of them, but they were both useful ballplayers. (May's value depends in part on dWAR and he had his best season in 1943. He might not have actually been that good, but by raw stats he was a useful ballplayer.)

The difference between Griffey and Walker is 3274 PA, 10 WAR, and -1.7 WAA, or the career of Dale Long or Ryan Doumit (if we don't consider Doumit's disastrous pitch framing). IOW, a journeyman who won't kill you but isn't going make a team win. That's what filler looks like.
   66. QLE Posted: November 25, 2017 at 01:09 PM (#5580950)
The difference between Griffey and Walker is 3274 PA, 10 WAR, and -1.7 WAA, or the career of Dale Long or Ryan Doumit (if we don't consider Doumit's disastrous pitch framing). IOW, a journeyman who won't kill you but isn't going make a team win. That's what filler looks like.


This analysis is a tad misleading, though, when we consider one thing:

The best ten seasons of both Griffey and Walker:

Griffey: 9.7/9.1/8.7/7.1/6.9/6.6/5.8/5.5/5.2/4.9
Walker: 9.8/7.8/6.1/5.7/5.4/5.1/4.7/4.7/4.4/4.4

They had a peak year that was a statistical tie- but, after that, Griffey was better year-by-year than Walker, and in Years 2-7 by rather substantial amounts. Moreover, strike credit would only aid Griffey- the 6.9 listed is his 1994, while the two 4.7s are Walker's 1994 and 1995. Essentially, Griffey gained no WAR and lost 6.3 WAA in the five years he played after Walker retired- had they both retired in 2005, Griffey would have had 11 more WAR and 4.6 more WAA in only 1042 more PA, which is roughly two more seasons' worth of All-Star level play.
   67. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 25, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5580954)
Yeah, Griffey is funny, because he'd have looked so much better if the second half of his career hadn't happened. If he'd quit in order to walk the earth after the 2001 season then he would've been Joe DiMaggio:

Player       PA       WAA      WAR
Griffey    7736      52.1     78.0
DiMaggio   7672      54.5     78.1 


In his time after that he did roughly what Logan Morrison has done thus far:

Player       PA       WAA      WAR
Griffey    3568      
-5.6      5.6
Morrison   3354      
-5.8      5.1 


So *that* is the filler in Griffey's career.
   68. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 25, 2017 at 01:34 PM (#5580957)
A HOF without Chipper Jones is meaningless.
   69. Lassus Posted: November 25, 2017 at 03:50 PM (#5580972)
This is why I (and I'm sure others) have largely moved on to other locations for our baseball discussions.

Legitimately curious - where?
   70. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 25, 2017 at 05:05 PM (#5580977)
4chan
   71. Baldrick Posted: November 25, 2017 at 05:31 PM (#5580978)
This is still the best place to talk about baseball. But digressions like the one in this thread sure don't help.
   72. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 25, 2017 at 05:48 PM (#5580979)
If anything this column confirms that the wrong people are voting for the hall of fame. Why don’t they donut like the singing shows : 1/2 crowd vote, 1/2 a handful of judges and then ignore it all and put in who the Hall wants

Whatever the merits of that suggestion, I'm not sure you'd applaud the results.

And just who is "the Hall", anyway?



Arsenio, duh.
   73. Omineca Greg Posted: November 25, 2017 at 05:53 PM (#5580980)
Even though I am 100% against Chipper's politics I'd vote him into the HOF in a second. (FYI: ran for the Green Party here in Canada a few years ago)
That's awesome! I mean running for the Green Party, being fast at voting for Chipper is also laudable I suppose, but I was thinking of you taking a shot at the legislature. And generally I'm not a Green Party supporter (I did vote for them in the last Provincial Election...). But it's great that you put yourself out there and gave people an opportunity to vote Green if they wanted, I know I'm always a little sad when nobody in the Omineca takes up that challenge...I don't get a chance to vote Green every election, and I appreciate the years that I can, even when I don't exercise it. So thanks for helping our country work and giving voters an option. It's a wonderful thing you did.
   74. Hank G. Posted: November 25, 2017 at 05:57 PM (#5580981)
I'm no fanboy, but in what world is Chipper not overqualified? Like Bill James said about Rickey!, if you cut him in half you'd have two Hall of Famers. He'd have to have spent the last five years lighting puppies on fire to even merit a hesitation. Geez.


Except it was very nearly true for Rickey (110.8 WAR), and nowhere near true for Chipper (85.0 WAR).

Cut Chipper in half, and you have Amos Otis and Dixie Walker; both very good players, but nowhere near Hall of Fame caliber (there are some players in that range in the HOF, but they wouldn’t be elected today).
   75. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 25, 2017 at 06:35 PM (#5580990)
Except it was very nearly true for Rickey (110.8 WAR), and nowhere near true for Chipper (85.0 WAR).

Cut Chipper in half, and you have Amos Otis and Dixie Walker; both very good players, but nowhere near Hall of Fame caliber (there are some players in that range in the HOF, but they wouldn’t be elected today).

I don't think that is quite right either though. Presumably our Chip Jo would have put up his 40-45 WAR in about 3000 fewer PAs than those two guys. That gets into the range where it is at least an interesting peak case. That would be something like Joe Mauer before he moved to 1B. Or not far off Kirby Puckett. It probably depends a lot on the reason why his career was cut short, and the amount of goodwill he has among the electorate.

Of course I guess it depends how you are halving his career. If you just cut the value of each of his PA's in half then... he is roughly Omar Vizquel, who apparently is going to walk into the hall on the first ballot. Never mind.
   76. LargeBill Posted: November 25, 2017 at 06:41 PM (#5580991)
Political leanings don't bug me with Curt Schilling, Chipper Jones, or anybody else when it comes to the HOF vote -but I suspect it hurts Schilling a lot more than it ever will Jones, probably because Jones doesn't go on radio shows and talk about it.


It hurts Schilling more than Jones mainly because voters have more difficulty appreciating great starting pitchers (with less than 300 wins) than a great offensive player. A pitcher can lose a 1-0 game and it's judged as a loss. A 3B goes 4 for 5 in a dozen losses and holy crap he batted .800 for a two week period!!!
   77. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: November 25, 2017 at 07:08 PM (#5580995)
Nah, Schilling was ahead of Mussina, and would have stayed ahead, if he hadn't opened his mouth. Insulting the electorate is not a winning strategy.
   78. Bug Selig Posted: November 25, 2017 at 07:47 PM (#5581004)
Cobb, Wagner, Ruth, Williams, and the like really belong. This brouhaha is all about lesser candidates, and mostly it's about candidate at least three steps from the top-tier.
Yeah, who cares about bums like Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds?
   79. The Duke Posted: November 25, 2017 at 08:28 PM (#5581010)
I’m ecstatic Omar is getting recognition. It bodes well for defense first players and for the value of high performance over time. It would be great for Whitaker’s case for one. Rolen who is currently on the ballot will get a boost. Dwight Evans is another.
   80. cardsfanboy Posted: November 25, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5581028)
As a Cardinal fan who has been stuck with Ortiz writing the last few years, this is an example of what a ####### tool this stupid ass muther-focker is.
   81. cardsfanboy Posted: November 25, 2017 at 09:43 PM (#5581030)
For the record, Ortiz is a Houston Astros fan/writer, who f-ing hates the fact that his indiscretions have made him become a Cardinal writer...he Hates the team he is covering, but is stuck with them, because they were the only midwest city willing to hire him, simply because he spoke spanish, but he's a useless f-k of a writer that reduces the already low standards of the stltoday.
   82. Booey Posted: November 26, 2017 at 01:13 AM (#5581045)
I’m ecstatic Omar is getting recognition. It bodes well for defense first players and for the value of high performance over time. It would be great for Whitaker’s case for one. Rolen who is currently on the ballot will get a boost. Dwight Evans is another.


Not necessarily. Whitaker, Evans, and Rolen are the type of all around players that are often ignored. They didn't hit well enough to warrant election solely for their bats, and they didn't win enough gold gloves to get elected solely for their defense. Specialists like Vizquel that only excelled in one area generally stand a better chance for some reason, even though the former group are all much better players. It's weird.
   83. QLE Posted: November 26, 2017 at 04:32 AM (#5581047)
Specialists like Vizquel that only excelled in one area generally stand a better chance for some reason, even though the former group are all much better players.


Mind you, it should be noted that the "defense-first" mode of analysis seems to be applied by HOF voters almost solely to shortstops- looking at the lists of HOF inductees with both OPS+s under 100 and who were clearly elected solely on the basis of their position play, shortstop has far more inductees that fit in this category than any other position, with seven.

Even then, however:

1) Of these seven, four (Bancroft, Reese, Rizzuto, and Tinker) were inducted by various versions of the Veterans Committee, and three for reasons (being a teammate of Frankie Frisch, a long career as an announcer in NYC, and the verse of Franklin Pierce Adams) of dubious connection to actual play.

2) Of the other three, one (Aparicio) had an image of being a great baserunner from his years leading the American League in steals- in other words, they didn't think it was defense only, even if his offense contributions were being overrated.

3) This basically leaves Rabbit Maranville and Ozzie Smith as the two shortstops with defense-only claims inducted by the BBWAA- 48 years apart from one another.

Similarly, looking at other positions doesn't suggest much of a HOF interest in defense-only players- neither the two below-average-hitting catchers (Schalk and Ferrell) nor the two below-average-hitting second basemen (Mazeroski and Fox) nor the one below-average-hitting center fielder (Lloyd Waner) were BBWAA inductees (though Fox came very close), and, of these four, one's induction is heavily connected to one World Series play, another to being an honest player on a team selling out to gamblers, a third wasn't an especially great defensive player either (at least by current calculations) and apparently was inducted by mistake, and a forth was as below-average at fielding as he was his offense.

That's close to it involving position players who were below-average in offense that got inducted- note that even Brooks Robinson ended his career with an OPS+ of 104, Ivan Rodriguez with one of 106, and Richie Ashburn one of 111.

It is because of all of this that the support Vizquel is receiving seems so strange- this sort of campaign has rarely worked on the BBWAA, and it seems especially odd for it to be working now, especially given both the crowded ballot and changes in both statistical analysis and in relative values given to elements of the game in the last few decades.
   84. djordan Posted: November 26, 2017 at 06:24 AM (#5581048)
#83, the fascinating thing abour Pudge R is that at the close of his Age 32 season, he had a lifetime .306/.347/.490 slashline, 115 OPS+ and 2000 hits before he turned into Jim Sundberg.

He also reached 1000 by the age of 26. Also noteworthy - Pudge finished with a higher oWar than Ted Simmons.

Btw, I also used to wonder how Aparicio got into the Hall with his numbers. Jaffe's Cooperstown book points out Aparicio was one of the great baserunners of all time as measured by RBaser.
   85. PreservedFish Posted: November 26, 2017 at 08:06 AM (#5581050)
Except it was very nearly true for Rickey (110.8 WAR), and nowhere near true for Chipper (85.0 WAR).

Cut Chipper in half, and you have Amos Otis and Dixie Walker; both very good players, but nowhere near Hall of Fame caliber (there are some players in that range in the HOF, but they wouldn’t be elected today).


Is this really how James meant it?
   86. RMc's Unenviable Situation Posted: November 26, 2017 at 08:48 AM (#5581055)
Where do you draw the line on character flaws that can be forgiven versus those that cannot?

Everybody gets in except Republicans.
   87. PreservedFish Posted: November 26, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5581063)
I find character flaws to be an asset to one's Hall of Fame case. Curt Schilling's contentious personality and topsy-turvy post-MLB career make him a more memorable character.
   88. Omineca Greg Posted: November 26, 2017 at 01:43 PM (#5581128)
Curt Schilling's contentious personality and topsy-turvy post-MLB career make him a more memorable character.

That's what I think too. It seems a bit much to lament the lack of interesting quotes from ballplayers on the one hand, and then start to complain when somebody does say something interesting because it seems kind of whack-a-do to me. Schilling's controversies haven't had the chance to be judged by time, you have to imagine what people 150 years from now would think of his antics.

Imagine Curt was a player from the 1880s...who lost all his money on a harebrained scheme to bring electric streetlights to the West Coast. After he was penniless from that debacle, he spent his spare time writing letters to newspapers wondering out loud if Rutherford B. Hayes' grew his beard out to hide syphilitic lesions. Then one time he disguised himself as caterer to get access to the punch bowl at the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, so he could spike it with Pemberton's French Wine Coca, and then all the teetotalers went on a cocaethylene inspired riot, burning down the nearby Oyster House, so he was able to recoup his fortune by fortuitously having opened Curt's Cool Chowder House And Taproom just a week earlier. But then he blew all his new found wealth by investing it in Babcock Machines, which were selling really well into he got ###### up by Big Milk. Once again, bored and penniless, he started a letter writing campaign, claiming to have been Katharine O'Shea's illicit lover/father of her children, letting Charles Stewart Parnell off the hook, and thereby promoting the cause of Irish Nationalism. He was then interviewed by what appeared to be sportswriters, so of course he granted them access to his home, and right in the middle of his "blah-blah-blah", they whipped off their overcoats, and it turned out they were rogue C of I monks, who beat him to within an inch of his life while screaming "Home Rule Is Rome Rule!"...

I would totally vote for that guy. Even if he did give up 347 HR, which is an awful lot for the 1880s.
   89. dlf Posted: November 26, 2017 at 02:04 PM (#5581134)
Was [Chipper] getting hurt a lot at the end?


Very much so. His last full season was his age 31 year. After that, his games played, from high to low, are 143, 137, 134, 128, 126, 112, 110, 109, and 95. Mostly it was nagging little things that would keep him out for a couple of days, but also included a blown out ACL in '10 and a torn meniscus in '11.

...

Are there any clubs where politics markedly changed the clubhouse for the worse? I'm thinking of the very tense situation in San Diego during the John Birch Society starting staff of Whitson / Dravecky / Show, but unless you think that political dissent caused Goose Gossage to throw a meatball to Kirk Gibson, the '84 Padres aren't an example of a team hurt by politics. A few years later, the team was torn apart due to battling cliques but that was more Jack Clark vs. Tony Gwynn and, as far as I remember, had nothing to do with the earlier political issues in the clubhouse.
   90. PreservedFish Posted: November 26, 2017 at 02:11 PM (#5581136)
Are there any clubs where politics markedly changed the clubhouse for the worse?


I bet the world of soccer has some excellent examples of this.
   91. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: November 26, 2017 at 03:04 PM (#5581153)
Except it was very nearly true for Rickey (110.8 WAR), and nowhere near true for Chipper (85.0 WAR).

Cut Chipper in half, and you have Amos Otis and Dixie Walker; both very good players, but nowhere near Hall of Fame caliber (there are some players in that range in the HOF, but they wouldn’t be elected today).


Is this really how James meant it?

Wouldn't it depend on how you cut them in half? If you cut Rickey in half horizontally, you probably do have two Hall of Famers - the top half would be an excellent hitter, while the bottom half would have all the baserunning records. If you cut him in half vertically, though, you're left with a great righthanded hitter and OBP guy who can't throw - arguably a Hall of Famer - but a lefthanded throwing OF who can't hit. Plus, who knows how many bases he would steal if he had to hop.

Chipper, being a switch-hitter, would be able to provide offense with both the left and the right halves, but would half of Chipper throwing lefthanded be able to stick at 3B? If not, would his left-half offense be HOF-level for a corner OF/1B? I'm skeptical. Likewise, if you cut Chipper in half horizontally, the lower half is probably sub-replacement level.

So really, the only way you could most likely get two HOFers from either of them would be to cut Rickey in half at the waist.
   92. PreservedFish Posted: November 26, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5581162)
I should think that it was implied that you would vivisect Rickey's halves with the halves of other, lesser players, so that he need not hop nor drag his stump to first.
   93. DonPedro Posted: November 26, 2017 at 05:18 PM (#5581190)
Thank you for #88. Posts like that make slogging through all the sniping on the site worthwhile. Where else but an AHA* convention (at least on this side of the ocean) would you find a reference to Parnell?

* or the Canadian equivalent
   94. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 26, 2017 at 05:30 PM (#5581197)
If you cut Rickey Henderson in half, he could finally be Rickey speaking on behalf of Rickey.
   95. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: November 26, 2017 at 05:59 PM (#5581208)
Are there any clubs where politics markedly changed the clubhouse for the worse?


A few years back the Rockies had a big Christian movement I think driven from the ownership. Did that have an impact? I’m genuinely asking, I don’t remember all the particulars other than much being made of it at the time.
   96. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 27, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5581356)
Everybody gets in except Republicans.


I feel like it's also legitimate to keep out non-Republicans with demonstrated Republican values, like Marty Bergen.
   97. Rally Posted: November 27, 2017 at 10:12 AM (#5581367)
Of course I guess it depends how you are halving his career. If you just cut the value of each of his PA's in half then... he is roughly Omar Vizquel, who apparently is going to walk into the hall on the first ballot. Never mind.


10,000+ PA, under 50 WAR, HOF: Lou Brock, Nellie Fox, Rabbit Maranville, soon possibly Omar.

Reaching those numbers and not in the HOF not named Omar: 6 players (Baines, Parker, Finley, Staub, Rollins, Buckner).

Better than I thought, 30% (maybe soon 40%) of this type make it. But I'd expect half-Chipper to be one of those left out. He is a bat, not a good fielding, no power, middle infielder or baserunning legend.

Half-Chipper done that way is probably Steve Finley.
   98. Rally Posted: November 27, 2017 at 10:21 AM (#5581372)
Everybody gets in except Republicans.


Do BBWAA members as a group lean that strongly to the left? If this idea is taken seriously (I know your post is in jest, but Ortiz's vote is actually happening) then the Republican BBWAA will have to play by the same rules and make sure no Democrats get in. Since the HOF requires 75%, that's game over. Ortiz should be stripped of his vote to nip this in the bud and make sure players are elected based on what they did as a player, with consideration of character in strictly context of how that affected the teams they played on. A player's twitter account for things posted after his retirement should be 100% out of bounds, as should losing 100s of millions of public money on a failed video game company.
   99. RJ in TO Posted: November 27, 2017 at 10:38 AM (#5581387)
10,000+ PA, under 50 WAR, HOF: Lou Brock, Nellie Fox, Rabbit Maranville, soon possibly Omar.
So the greatest base stealer of all time (up to his time), a great defensive second baseman with an MVP and a strong association with a specific team, a showman who was the all time leader for games played at SS with a great defensive reputation, and the all time leader for games played at SS with a great defensive reputation.

Reaching those numbers and not in the HOF not named Omar: 6 players (Baines, Parker, Finley, Staub, Rollins, Buckner).
So a DH, a guy who blew the prime of his career on drugs, a guy who has no notable career moments, a guy who is best remembered as a PH, a guy who has yet to hit the ballot but who looks to me a lot like a future VC pick (with the play at SS, the MVP, and the strong association with the Phillies great run), and guy whose most memorable moment was a ######.

In other words, for guys in this group, it's all about narrative.
   100. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: November 27, 2017 at 10:46 AM (#5581399)
Do BBWAA members as a group lean that strongly to the left?


BBWAA members are overwhelmingly old white men. So, no.
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