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Help them do what? How likely are they to be any good, even with Tejada?
It seems like this is a fairly big trade that doesn't do all that much for either team.
Patton B+
Costanzo B-
Albers is not eligible, but he was rated B+ a year ago.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Scott flipped to a contender.
Bedard and Roberts are probably going to be shipped out very soon.
Tejada to third, perhaps? Reports on his defense are not good.
they cut off his eyelids, cover him with honey, tie him up and leave him in the desert. who cares really?
I hate it for the Astros. They're not going to compete this year. Tejada at third, Bourn in center, Pence in right is worse offensively than Wigginton at third Scott in right, Pence in center and this is a team that's already punting shortstop, second base and catcher sometimes at the plate.
Oswalt
Woody Williams
Wandy Rodriguez
Brandon Backe
....
The ants, for one.
Edit: Woody Williams is still pitching? No ####.
I can't find a reason to disagree. If Tejada couldn't take the losing in Baltimore, he's not going to be much happier here.
Considering that he's easily the best defensive SS in baseball, probably fans of the Astros. Both of them.
Patton B+
Huh. That's the same grade Sickels gave to Homer Bailey last week.
As a Reds fan, I hope that Bailey's chances of success aren't the same as Patton's.
If the Dodgers still have an interest in Bedard, I could see Scott going there to replace Kemp. But who knows given the Kuroda situation.
My first reaction to this was meh, but after further thought I think it's a decent return for Tejada. They weren't going to get an A prospect, and so quantity over quality isn't a bad idea. Put another way, are these five guys worth more than, say, Brandon Wood? Hard to say, but there's a decent chance Wood never does anything, and then the trade would be horrible. Here there's a good chance 1-2 players aside from Scott turn into something useful.
I realize that the key was to shed Tejada's contract and get young pitching. But I am still not impressed with Baltimore's haul. Not that Tejada provides a lot of help for Houston; it looks like a deal between two teams without grand strategies.
The Astros don't have one.
Can Markakis handle CF?
Given they had Jay Payton & Friends in LF last year, I'd think they'd give Scott a chance to do his thing over there.
It's also not a terrible deal for Houston - their farm system is such that there's no immediate help anywhere, and the NL Central is so weak that they might as well take a shot at trying to winkle out a division title over the next year or two while seeing what happens with the lower reaches of the system.
-- MWE
They also have Aubrey Huff at DH and Jays Gibbons and Payon in LF. Scott's a better hitter than any of those players. Plus, Scott could be very useful to some contenders. Cleveland, San Diego, Toronto (if they're willing to trade him in the division), The Cubs maybe if they get Pie back in a Roberts deal.
Both suck right now, but at least Bailey is a year younger and has shown a high K/9 rate at AA.
I'm probably going out on a limb here, but I think Scott might be able to make the transition to LF.
On second thought, the Orioles would prefer to move Payton, Gibbons, or Huff and keep Scott, but I'm guessing there's almost zero market for those guys.
I'm liking this trade more and more: trade Tejada for depth prospects, and get the elite guy(s) from a Bedard trade.
Yup.
-- MWE
Then don't trade him. At this point, I'm worried that this trade looks like a Syd Thrift trade from the 2000 purge. Scott, Albers, Costanzo are the new Chris Richard, Leslie Brea, and Jose Leon. I'm happy with Patton but I would rather have a better prospect than Costanzo. The rest of the guys just add to the mediocrity which the O's specialize in.
I don't think he'd be great out there, but he's been very impressive in the 30 some games I've seen him in RF. Camden isn't all that big of a centerfield, I wouldn't be surprised if he could handle it. I will of course, defer to the opinion of any O's fan that is subsequently posted.
Yeah. My first reaction was that was an awful lot of prospects from a team with a barren farm system. I think they should have absorbed some of the contract if it meant they could get better prospects from somebody.
I'm pretty sure all three of those guys will be gone before opening day, even if the Orioles have to eat some or all of their salaries.
He's a very good defensive RF to my eye, although most metrics have him as average.
I think he played some CF in the minors, and has filled in at CF once or twice in the majors.
Markakis has a plus ability to make diving catches, and a very strong arm, but he may not have enough speed to play CF full time.
I'm all for trying it out, since there's nothing to lose. If he can handle CF, Markakis becomes one of the most valuable players in the majors.
This is pretty much the first thing that comes to mind when I think of him, he's just good at going down and getting those balls at the edge of his range.
Never heard that one, I thought it was Oswalt, Everett, Ensberg, and another player I can't remember. And I remember a lot people saying that Ensberg would bounce back.
Yeah, but the best rumors are always better than the actual trades.
Wasn't there a Tejada to the Angels for Wood and Weaver rumor just a couple weeks ago?
I'd be surprised if Rosenthal pulled a Will Carroll on this one.
Sure, but it matters for whatever credibility mlbtraderumors.com is trying to garner.
It seems any blogger needs to be careful when calling out (if that's what it was) someone like Rosenthal, especially "on the heels" of Tim Dierkes' interview with none other than...Will Carroll.
Yeah, Scott could be flipped for something better if he starts out strong. Otherwise, he's too old for what the O's should be doing. The O's need young players with lots of upside and Scott is just too old to fit that bill. If the O's ever contend again, he'll be on the wrong side of 30.
But doesn't this trade utterly fail to address the biggest need of the Orioles, which is core position players (and young ones, as opposed to Luke Scott)? On the major league team they basically just have Markakis who can be part of the next good Orioles team (Roberts is already 30). Wieters and Rowell look good as prospects but they've got a long way to go and the system needs more talent in the pipe line.
Technically Costanzo is from the Phillies farm system, they got him in the Lidge trade.
He probably strikes out too much to be a worthwhile major-league regular, despite his power, but you could say that about an awful lot of prospects these days.
True, but this is obviously just the first of multiple trades, so those needs will be addressed. Evaluate this trade based on what the Orioles got back, not based on what they didn't get back.
I like the idea of dealing with the NL Central teams since they all (rightly) feel they are just a piece or two away from being serious competitors.
Bedard to the Reds.
Roberts to the Cubs.
Payton to the Pirates.
Hernandez to the Brewers.
Bradford to the Cards.
Ellis to the Cubs
Kotsay to the Pirates
Blanton to the Rangers for Salty, Salty to the Brewers
Street to the Cards
In any event, at least it's O's news that doesn't involve steroid allegations, arrests, or attempts to sign Jeromy Burnitz.
Maybe not.
So for the Orioles to "win" this trade, they just need to get ANY value out of the 5 players they got back. I don't think any of the five players are special, but all together, they'll probably be worth at least 5-10 mil, and if any of them become more than just spare parts, the O's will have fleeced the 'Stros.
This seems like the kind of trade you often could make in Baseball Mogul, just keep adding various B- to C- prospects until the AI caves and gives you the player you want.
Costanzo appears to me, after a cursory check of their minors stats, to be the only guy with some decent upside (3B with power and walks)-the various pitching prospects range from guys with some velocity but no control, to guys with control but no velocity. Scott is one of those late bloomers who often tend to hit the wall around age 30.
I'm not at all pissed at the suggestion. Were I in your position, I'd've preferred that, too.
This is the money quote of the thread.
Right now, I'm disappointed, b/c this looks like an empty salary-dump move that I (perhaps naively) expected MacPhail to avoid. There's no obvious quality coming back to the O's.
Trot Nixon age 27-29: .279/.369/.514 (.883 OPS, 128 OPS+)
Luke Scott age 27-29: .273/.366/.518 (.882 OPS, 125 OPS+)
Well, there aren't any sure things (and I'm a little surprised they couldn't get more than this), but it isn't THAT bad. Patton's a good prospect, and Albers a decent one; there's a decent chance you get a quality major league starter out of one of them. The rest are crapshoots without a whole lot of upside.
Contrary to DKDC's comment in the Fukudome thread, I think the proposed Cub package (whether it was actually offered, I have no clue) of Gallagher/Murton/Cedeno/Veal is a better package than what the O's got; it almost certainly has more upside.
Sickels rates Patton as a B+ prospect. I'll trust Sickels and say he looks like a decent prospect. The only other prospect is Constanza which Sickels rates as B-. He probably duplicates Scott Moore.
You have to love it when the team with the worst minor league system in baseball is able to make a prospects-for-now type deal. NOW how bad is Houston's system?
Adenhart B+
Bailey B+
Cueto A-
Detwiler B+
Guerra B+
Hanson B+
Hurley B+
Patton B+
Porcello B+
Robertson B+
Sickels seems to be higher on Patton than most, but it looks like he considers him to be one of the top 25-30 pitching prospects in the majors. Gallagher was rated a B, by the way.
Not unless Veal figures out how to find the strike zone consistently.
-- MWE
DKDC has it right in #56; this is the first of what will likely be at least three major Oriole trades, the other two of which will involve Roberts and Bedard.
-- MWE
Meh. Leaving Veal out of the equation, Gallagher/Patton's more or less a wash (edge to Patton), ditto Murton/Scott (I'd rather have Murton), and his miserable MLB performance notwithstanding, Cedeno's got more upside than anyone else the Orioles got for Tejada, and would fill their immediate need for a shortstop. I'd take Albers over Veal because he's more developed and more likely to contribute SOMETHING, but the other guys the O's got are pretty much non-entities.
But ... getting pitchers for Tejada means that the return for Bedard can be all hitters. And he should return some really good hitters.
In that Tigers thread, somebody estimated that Maybin has a 30% chance to have Sammy Sosa's career. Instead, the O's got Trot Nixon upside and some "non-entities" from the "worst minor league system in baseball." That's like getting nothing.
Tejada-for-filler. Great. Can't wait to see what Bedard brings.
In that Tigers thread, somebody estimated that Maybin has a 30% chance to have Sammy Sosa's career. Instead, the O's got Trot Nixon upside and some "non-entities" from the "worst minor league system in baseball." That's like getting nothing.
Tejada-for-filler. Great. Can't wait to see what Bedard brings.
I don't understand your complaint. Fairly or unfairly (and I think he's been undervalued), Tejada has nowhere near the trade value of Cabrera or Bedard. Cabrera is 24 on a HOF trajectory. Bedard is 28, cheap for the next two years, and was one of the best pitchers in baseball last year. Bedard should bring back a couple top prospects. The Orioles were never going to get an A prospect for tejada, and so getting back a bunch of role players isn't a bad return. As I said in the Mariners thread, decent role players are extremely important.
I think you're assuming he's trying to do anything, which might be a false assumption. Teams like Houston, Cincinatti, San Francisco, Pittsburgh (until now, maybe), Texas, the White Sox (07 and 08 models), and probably somebody else that I'm missing, always seem to think they're just one or two vets away from really putting it all together.
That being said, maybe I'm not being fair- Houston might just be stuck. You have Berkman, Lee, and Oswalt all in their primes, so you either go for it now or trade all of those guys away. You can't really blame them for going for it, especially in that division. But really going for it is going to involve getting some guys behind Oswalt, which might be impossible.
Cabrera and Willis brought in two A'ish prospects, plus four more players. I figured that, at worst, the O's could get one A'ish prospect and nothing else for Tejada.
I didn't see that as unreasonable.
Good move by the Astros.
It still baffles me that MacPhail openly discussed that he was marketing Tejada to other teams as a third baseman. He's far more valuable as an average-to-below-average fielding shortstop.
I didn't see that as unreasonable.
I just looking for two B/B+ prospects. Pattton is fine, maybe Scott can be flipped for another B+ prospect if he starts out well next year.
SUre, I was hoping for that too. And I'm sure MacPhail would have preferred getting a Maybin type back for tejada, but I doubt that was on the table. As it is, he did get a good return for Tejada. The key to this offseason has always been Bedard. If the Orioles can get 2 or even 3 top tier prospects for him they'll be in great shape. The Roberts and Tejada trades will round out the roster will useful role players.
But instead they got five players, including Patton, who is just 22 years old and has a pretty solid minor-league track record. He's not Clay Buchholz or Phil Hughes, but he's got some upside. Luke Scott is no slouch, and I'm sure he's not meant to be a long-term solution in Baltimore. I think if anyone made a bad trade here, it was Houston, not Baltimore.
I am a big fan of Everett's and am surprised that folks are falling back on the old canard that "any old shortstop will do if he can hit" routine.
There are shortstops and then there are SHORTSTOPS.
The Orioles' rotation last year included two good starters (Bedard and Guthrie), a talented-but-ineffective enigma (Cabrera), a terrifying-but-improbably-mediocre Steve Trachsel, and a collection of filler (Brian Burres, Jon Leicester, Jaret Wright, Victor Zambrano, Victor Santos, Kurt Birkins, and a not-ready-for-prime-time Garrett Olson and Radhames Liz). They'll get Loewen back next year, but they'll also probably flip Bedard, so there are still plenty of starts out there for "the field".
See post 83, you won't be happy.
Tampa seemed like by far the most logical landing spot for Everett before they got Bartlett. Now, I dunno. You'd need either a terrific hitting team that can contend but has a SS hole, or a rebuilding team that wants to ease life for its young pitchers. I don't see very many fits here at all, but the Nats strike me as an excellent one, in the latter category. Not only would Everett himself help the D, but moving Lopez to 2B essentially helps it twice... and if they're gonna have Milledge, who will probably be good defensively eventually but isn't yet, and Wily Mo and Dmitri Young, who will never be good defensively, all out there at the same time... well, it'd be nice if someone could field.
To be fair, this is all assuming that Everett still is an all-world fielder after a serious leg injury, which I don't think we know.
Cedeno's got almost no upside. The only place he's hit in the minors is in the PCL (yeah, Iowa, but still the PCL). He didn't hit in A-ball, he didn't hit in AA, and he didn't hit as a regular with the Cubs in 2006. He's got a lot more PAs of non-hitting than he does of hitting.
-- MWE
I like this trade from the Astros perspective ..
Pence
Berkman
Lee
Tejada .
thats a very formidable heart of the order.
Probably the best in the NL central if not the NL.
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