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Monday, March 24, 2014

Ostergaard: More reasons to hate the Yankees: It’s history, and much worse than A-Rod

There’s a unique spirit you’ll experience in a Del Webb community. You ain’t shittin’.

“Excerpted from “The Devil’s Snake Curve: A Fan’s Notes from Left Field” by Josh Ostergaard.”

Roosevelt’s order created an urgent need for housing. Del Webb’s company won the contract to build camps near Parker, Ariz., named Poston. Most Americans at the time didn’t know what happened to Japanese Americans during the war. The massive construction projects near Parker brought jobs, workers and an influx of business to an otherwise sleepy region of Arizona, and the few white Americans who knew why did not protest. Webb chose to build Poston’s three concentration camps on Native American land, despite arguments from the Colorado River Indian Reservation Tribal Council.

A map of Poston Unit I from November of 1942 makes the camp look like one of the Sun City retirement communities Webb would create decades later. The map shows a woodcraft shop, a drama center, a library, a hospital, a center for adult education, a barber and a beauty parlor. The perimeter is clearly marked, but the fence is not labeled as a fence. Apart from the police department, there is no evidence of the fact that residents were not allowed to leave. Webb was a former semi-pro baseball player, and his camp included America’s favorite pastime: the map shows a baseball field between the hospital and the Buddhist headquarters.

There were camps in seven states, and all of them had baseball teams.

...Everywhere the Yankees go in Japan, they are greeted by crowds eager to see Americans. The Yankees ride around in open-topped cars, waving to fans. The stadiums are packed, the Japanese media omnipresent. The Yankees visit Osaka, Nagoya, Sapporo. Locals give flowers to the players before the games. Red balloons are released and float toward heaven. The mood is light. Everyone, players and fans alike, seems happy. Baseball is a softer kind of violence than war.

The pleasant mood falls away. They are in Hiroshima. There are no fans, no convoys of waving Yankees, no welcome signs, no games. It could not have been a stop on the official itinerary. The cameraman focuses on a shrine. Shot from the side, it has the shape and look of a covered wagon, though it’s built of cement or stone and emits a dull gray color, like nothingness extruded from the sky on a cloudy day and used as paint. A patch of sunlight illuminates its center. The light catches the cameraman from behind, and his shadow wavers. Several other shadows are there, too. They seem to reach for the shrine and almost touch it. Ephemeral as ghosts, their faces are never shown.

Warrior

Decades later, former Yankees owner Del Webb died of complications from cancer surgery. Before his death, he’d been asked to reflect on his long, successful career: “‘I think the greatest thing our company ever did was move the Japs out of California. We did it in ninety days back in the war.’”

Repoz Posted: March 24, 2014 at 08:01 PM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 24, 2014 at 09:10 PM (#4676561)
A summary of the article in two pictures.
   2. Shibal Posted: March 24, 2014 at 09:11 PM (#4676563)
I'm usually the first one to congratulate the writer of any article hating the Yankees, but this one is god-awful.

Horrible writing. Horrible anecdotes that may or may not be true.

I can't imagine an entire book filled with dreck like this.
   3. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 24, 2014 at 09:35 PM (#4676572)
From the article:

Like Babe Ruth in his early years with the Red Sox, certain players had a knack for thrashing the Yankees. Christy Mathewson was among the first, but he beat them in 1910, before the Yankees were a worthy opponent.


Can somebody elucidate on that? What is he talking about - an inter-city exhibition game, perhaps?

Ruth, BTW, was 17-5, 2.21, lifetime against New York, so I think "thrashed" is an accurate statement.
   4. Kiko Sakata Posted: March 24, 2014 at 09:44 PM (#4676573)
Can somebody elucidate on that? What is he talking about - an inter-city exhibition game, perhaps?


In the early 20th century many of the 2-team cities (and some neighboring cities) had postseason exhibition series between their AL & NL teams. Retrosheet has a really nice page that covers a lot of this. Here's the link to the 1910 NY City Series (Mathewson won 3 games).
   5. Dale Sams Posted: March 24, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4676577)
And the Dodgers acquisition of land for their stadium?
   6. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 24, 2014 at 10:10 PM (#4676578)
Retrosheet has a really nice page that covers a lot of this. Here's the link to the 1910 NY City Series (Mathewson won 3 games).


Thanks - (the link seems broken, but I found it by going to Retrosheet). Three wins and a save in the four Giants wins in a seven game series...
   7. winnipegwhip Posted: March 25, 2014 at 01:04 AM (#4676625)
I didn't know Howard Zinn was still alive and covering sports under a pseudonym.
   8. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 25, 2014 at 09:21 AM (#4676665)
The first comment in TFA is the best:
You've provided a service to all of us who are baseball fans and intelligent readers by making it clear that this is a book to avoid. I can't see any other possible reason to print this other than to warn away potential readers.
   9. Moeball Posted: March 25, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4676960)
When I got married, I found out about a bit of WWII history that doesn't get talked about much.

You see, my wife's dad was a German Jew. He was a young teenager in the mid to late 1930s; with Hitler running the show, it was obvious that things weren't looking good even before Kristallnacht. For anyone who had any doubts about what Hitler's true intentions were - in most cases, when someone makes it clear you're not welcome to be there - the thing to do is just go away and then everybody's happy. Except that in Germany in the mid-1930s, Jews weren't allowed to just "go away". It was very clear that the real intent was to specifically exterminate them, not just remove them. Therefore the family had to change their last name to a "less Jewish" sounding name, falsify passports and escape through the underground channels, very similar to what blacks had to do on the underground railroad escaping from the South to the North in the good old USA back in the day. BTW, there is an excellent play comparing and contrasting the two called "Home on the Mornin' Train" - if you get a chance to take your kids to see it, I highly recommend it.

At any rate, the family was lucky enough to eventually make it out of Germany and get to the US in the late 1930s. They later found out that some of the people who had helped them escape - non Jewish Germans who still disagreed with what Hitler was preaching - were found out by the SS to be helping Jews escape and were thus summarily executed.

So, a few years later, Pearl Harbor happened. My wife's dad had just turned 18 (long before my wife was born, of course!) and was approached by the US Government with a delicate proposition - join the war effort or be deported back to Germany. Oh, goody! Become a soldier and maybe get killed or go back to Germany as a Jew and get murdered for certain! Such a choice! Obviously, he raised an American flag and went "Yay, USA!"

Yet, while much has been made of the Japanese internment camps of that time, not much has been made of the German-Italian camps (for one thing, more difficult to spot them on the street than the Japs). Yes, dear old father-in-law was told to join the war effort for the USA but was not allowed to go overseas and actually join the war effort, as the government didn't trust his loyalties. Like a German Jew was going to fight for Hitler? But, despite his protests, he was not allowed to go. So he was placed in a "camp" in northern California with other German and Italian immigrants and told to pick fruit for a couple of years. Such fun!

Finally, along about late 1944 or early 1945, he was allowed to go over to Germany and mostly was part of a crew doing cleanup after the Allies had bombed the crap out of some cities. He specifically mentioned to me many years later about having to do cleanup in Dresden, after all the great art pieces had been destroyed ("Monuments Men" suddenly comes to mind).

I had no idea that the US was rounding up Germans and Italians during WWII like they were doing with the Japanese, but I suppose it makes sense given the way people felt at the time. It was several years after all of this (in the late '50s) when my wife finally came into the picture, but I was amazed and surprised to hear about my father-in-law's experiences in the years leading up to WWII and then the war years themselves.
   10. The District Attorney Posted: March 25, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4676975)
I disagree with the implication in the previous comments that it's somehow unseemly to report this.

Anyone who read Bill Veeck's The Hustler's Handbook already hated Del Webb, but this is a whole new level. I mean, I could kind of accept a "just following orders" defense for building the camp in the first place. (Kind of. Not really.) But to still think internment was a great idea decades later? That is complete crazytown.

Of course, yes, Webb is dead, and an entirely different group owns the Yankees now. But talk about misplaced priorities -- I certainly hope no one is processing a discussion about Japanese internment in terms of how it reflects on the 2014 New York Yankees. This is important and interesting information, IMO.
   11. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: March 25, 2014 at 06:41 PM (#4676983)
I disagree with the implication in the previous comments that it's somehow unseemly to report this.


It's unseemly to say "this is a reason to hate the Yankees."
   12. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 25, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4676987)
I disagree with the implication in the previous comments that it's somehow unseemly to report this.
It's unseemly to say "this is a reason to hate the Yankees."


his next article: "The loss of Flight 370: another reason to hate the yankees"
   13. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: March 25, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4676994)
Damn Obama!
   14. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 25, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4677012)
Interesting story, Moeball (#9), but you have to put it in perspective. There were over 1.5 million first generation German Americans in the U.S. in 1940, with many more children and grandchildren. The government interned all of 11,000 German "enemy aliens" and a much smaller number of German-American civilians. It's not remotely comparable in any way to what the Japanese Americans went through.

At its peak before the outbreak of the war, 25,000 of those German-American civilians were in the pro-Hitler German-American Bund, with youth branches and Summer camps and more than a few members involved in espionage.

What you're talking about was more a matter of the cluelessness and/or anti-semitism of the State Department and Congress, which viewed Jewish refugees as undesirable aliens, and often as "Communists". This wasn't an isolated attitude, either, as rampant anti-semitism permeated nearly all of our institutions at the time, including virtually all of our leading universities. Gallup polls at the time showed anti-semitic sentiment to be at an all-time high. The rabidly anti-semitic radio priest Charles Coughlin had an audience for his weekly broadcasts that was much higher in absolute numbers than Rush Limbaugh has ever had.

The bottom line is that what your father-in-law went through had much more to do with his being Jewish than with being German.
   15. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 25, 2014 at 08:06 PM (#4677015)
Decades later, former Yankees owner Del Webb died of complications from cancer surgery. Before his death, he’d been asked to reflect on his long, successful career: “‘I think the greatest thing our company ever did was move the Japs out of California. We did it in ninety days back in the war.’”

Yet more class from America's classiest sports franchise.
   16. Hal Chase School of Professionalism Posted: March 25, 2014 at 08:12 PM (#4677017)
I had no idea that the US was rounding up Germans and Italians during WWII like they were doing with the Japanese, but I suppose it makes sense given the way people felt at the time.


The areas along the coasts were deemed "exclusion zones" from which any and all persons of questionable loyalty could be moved. In reality, it meant anyone of Japanese descent. Unfortunately, it meant anyone with a German or Italian accent as well, regardless of their reasons for being there. Truly a shameful episode in American history.

Even worse than the writing in TFA. It's close... but Japanese internment was still worse.
   17. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 25, 2014 at 08:26 PM (#4677021)
The areas along the coasts were deemed "exclusion zones" from which any and all persons of questionable loyalty could be moved. In reality, it meant anyone of Japanese descent. Unfortunately, it meant anyone with a German or Italian accent as well, regardless of their reasons for being there.

That last part is a wild exaggeration. If that were true, Yorkville and Little Italy would have lost half their population.

Even worse than the writing in TFA. It's close... but Japanese internment was still worse.

It wasn't remotely "close". Just look at the actual numbers of German-American and Japanese-American internees and their percentage of the population.

And BTW where was the Japanese-American counterpart of Eisenhower? German-Americans were accepted into the service without question, whereas Japanese-Americans had to beg to be allowed to fight.

I think you may be confusing the two World Wars, since during WWI there actually was an enormous amount of anti-German prejudice and activity, but relatively little in WWII once you got beyond actual pro-Nazis. How else would you explain that there were twice as many Germans in Fritz Kuhn's Bund than wound up in internment camps?

   18. haggard Posted: March 25, 2014 at 09:34 PM (#4677033)
If you need actual reasons to hate the Yankees, you're not doing it right.
   19. McCoy Posted: March 25, 2014 at 09:42 PM (#4677035)
My grandfather was born in Italy and him and his family came to America when he was a little boy. He was between 18 to 20 when Pearl Harbor was attacked. He went into the military and was a crew member of a bomber that was based in North Africa and later in Italy. In fact one of his air bases that he was stationed at had Mt. Vesuvius as a backdrop and he took some great photos of the volcano as it erupted in March of 1944. Neither he nor his family was interred and it does not appear that the military was nervous that he would turn against America when American troops invaded Italy.
   20. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 25, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4677036)
Neither he nor his family was interred and it does not appear that the military was nervous that he would turn against America when American troops invaded Italy.

famous (and apocryphal) story about an exchange between Churchill and Ribbentrop, when the latter told the former, "in a future war, the Italians will be on OUR side" and Churchill said “That’s only fair – we had them last time.”
   21. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: March 25, 2014 at 10:01 PM (#4677039)
If you need actual reasons to hate the Yankees, you're not doing it right.

Exactly. I don't hate the Yankees for their role in WWII discrimination or for bringing down MA370 or their role in hiding Iraqi WMD's.

General Principle is plenty enough reason to hate them.
   22. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 25, 2014 at 10:11 PM (#4677042)
There are no bad reasons to hate the Yankees.
   23. winnipegwhip Posted: March 25, 2014 at 10:26 PM (#4677045)
In the good ole days the Yankees would have sent Jake Powell around to visit Josh in the off-season.
   24. Morty Causa Posted: March 25, 2014 at 11:38 PM (#4677066)
I noticed how in our discussion of Woodrow Wilson, when the topic of the German ambassador to the US was given a huge amount of money to set up what was tantamount to a terrorist network, using disaffected immigrants, especially German immigrants, and especially recent immigrants who had been born in Germany (and there were millions of them), that thread for some reason went nowhere. It just doesn't fit some people's conventional wisdom template, so it's easier to pretend that the that some immigrants have greater loyalty to their country of origin just doesn't exist. Let the handwaving commence.

See Dark Invasion at Amazon

This is a fact-loaded interview with the author of Dark Invasion

Yes, it's horrible that many Japanese were treated as they were. But there is a lot of second-guessing and Monday Morning Quarterbacking attached to that. Maybe had there been world enough and time....but let's pretend there wasn't reason and cause. If the wrong that is done to someone or some people takes Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court to act, more or less, in what amounts to accord (we see right now how hard that is to obtain), you probably will get all the legal protection that there is in this vale of tears we call life on this here earth. And it could have been a whole lot worse--ask those people in Nanking, or those American servicemen in the Pacific theater who were POWs under something a little more stringent than a detention camp.

Edited: typos and clarity
   25. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 26, 2014 at 06:35 AM (#4677105)
Exactly. I don't hate the Yankees for their role in WWII discrimination or for bringing down MA370 or their role in hiding Iraqi WMD's.

General Principle is plenty enough reason to hate them.


"Losers hate winners" is a pretty general principle.
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2014 at 07:37 AM (#4677111)
Yes, it's horrible that many Japanese were treated as they were. But there is a lot of second-guessing and Monday Morning Quarterbacking attached to that. Maybe had there been world enough and time....but let's pretend there wasn't reason and cause. If the wrong that is done to someone or some people takes Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court to act, more or less, in what amounts to accord (we see right now how hard that is to obtain), you probably will get all the legal protection that there is in this vale of tears we call life on this here earth. And it could have been a whole lot worse--ask those people in Nanking, or those American servicemen in the Pacific theater who were POWs under something a little more stringent than a detention camp.

The Japanese American interment was one part panic, one part deeply ingrained prejudice against Asians that went back to the 19th century, and one part precaution based on the record of the Japanese government, though I think the first two parts were the predominant ones. But the point is that whatever you may think about the policy of preventive internment, it affected Japanese Americans infinitely more than it affected German Americans or Italian Americans. The experience of McCoy's grandfather is much more typical of those latter two groups.
   27. Hal Chase School of Professionalism Posted: March 26, 2014 at 09:12 AM (#4677139)
The areas along the coasts were deemed "exclusion zones" from which any and all persons of questionable loyalty could be moved. In reality, it meant anyone of Japanese descent. Unfortunately, it meant anyone with a German or Italian accent as well, regardless of their reasons for being there.

That last part is a wild exaggeration. If that were true, Yorkville and Little Italy would have lost half their population.

Even worse than the writing in TFA. It's close... but Japanese internment was still worse.

It wasn't remotely "close". Just look at the actual numbers of German-American and Japanese-American internees and their percentage of the population.


You are correct on the first one. I phrased that poorly. I'm inclined to believe your earlier explanation about anti-semitism/anti-communism.

In the second one, I didn't mean that German-Americans faced "close" to the same level of internment as Japanese-Americans.... I meant that the writing in this article sucked almost as badly as Japanese-American internment. A missed joke that, I guess, doesn't speak well of my ability to write, either.
   28. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 26, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4677221)
Got it, Hal. I now see what you meant.
   29. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: March 26, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4677512)
Internment wasn't necessarily the worst that could happen. I once had a girlfriend whose father was a third-generation Jewish immigrant from Russia. He wanted to help fight the Nazis and volunteered for the US Army. His anti-semitic fellow soldiers beat him up for being a Jew, putting him in the hospital twice and knocking out most of his teeth. Kristallnacht wasn't just a German thing. Of course, no one was ever prosecuted.
   30. McCoy Posted: April 11, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4684408)
Yes, it's horrible that many Japanese were treated as they were. But there is a lot of second-guessing and Monday Morning Quarterbacking attached to that. Maybe had there been world enough and time....but let's pretend there wasn't reason and cause. If the wrong that is done to someone or some people takes Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court to act, more or less, in what amounts to accord (we see right now how hard that is to obtain), you probably will get all the legal protection that there is in this vale of tears we call life on this here earth. And it could have been a whole lot worse--ask those people in Nanking, or those American servicemen in the Pacific theater who were POWs under something a little more stringent than a detention camp.

A weird take and excuse for the trampling of what many people view to be fundamental rights of American citizens. The Japanese had a very small handful of spies in Hawaii, probably only two who were sent specifically to Pearl Harbor to spy (they arrived in March of 1941 under the cover of being diplomats of the Japanese government), and either none or basically none in the continental US. In fact the US employed more Japanese American spies than the Japanese leading up to the war than the Japanese had. It is quite likely that Japan had no Japanese Americans spying for them while the US had at least two spying on the Japanese for them. The Japanese did not like nor trust Japanese who emigrated to America and they really didn't like nor trust second generation Japanese Americans.

The removal of American citizens from the West Coast was not excusable then nor now. It was done by people who were either consumed by fear, hatred, and or greed. Plain and simple.
   31. Ron J2 Posted: April 11, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4684414)
But there is a lot of second-guessing and Monday Morning Quarterbacking attached to that. Maybe had there been world enough and time....but let's pretend there wasn't reason and cause.


Perilous Times had some very good stuff on this. It wasn't based on any reason or cause. The initial Army investigations turned up zip so they simply made #### up.

Again going back to Perilous Times, about the only prominent person who came through looking well was Learned Hand.
   32. AROM Posted: April 11, 2014 at 11:06 AM (#4684422)
Decades later, former Yankees owner Del Webb died of complications from cancer surgery. Before his death, he’d been asked to reflect on his long, successful career: “‘I think the greatest thing our company ever did was move the Japs out of California. We did it in ninety days back in the war.’”


I wonder what the source for that quote is. It's not an easy one to believe.
   33. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: April 11, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4684439)
For anyone who had any doubts about what Hitler's true intentions were - in most cases, when someone makes it clear you're not welcome to be there - the thing to do is just go away and then everybody's happy. Except that in Germany in the mid-1930s, Jews weren't allowed to just "go away". It was very clear that the real intent was to specifically exterminate them, not just remove them.


I certainly do not wish to question the memories of a victim of Nazi Germany, but the above summary greatly oversimplifies Nazi policy in the 1930s as understood by most academic historians. It was rabidly anti-Semitic and not hesitant at all about using violence to pursue this anti-Semetism, and Hitler may have had fantasies of a Europe free of Jews, but the policy to "exterminate" all Jews was not created until many years later. Hence the Madagascar ideas and the Polish Ghettos. Sadly, the inability of Jews in the 1930s to escape owed as much to the failure of western nations to accept refugees as to the Nazis blocking their deportation (which actually supports your larger point). The Evian Conference sealed the fate of many German Jews just as surely as the 1933 elections.
   34. McCoy Posted: April 11, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4684462)
Yes and you can really see that was true in the evolution of their concentration/death camps. It wasn't until the war the was well under way that the Nazis decided to just kill as many of them as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Before that they had been simply content to strip them of their rights and herd them into ghettos. That then evolved into relocating them to slave labor camps (which nobody really expected them to live for many years) and finally at the end they simply sent them off to death camps.
   35. base ball chick Posted: April 11, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4684471)
there is always a "those People"
icky japs, icky negroes, icky jews, icky italians, icky irish - whatevs

i guess what i have never understood is this - if you think 'Group X" are Bad or Icky, why allow them to emigrate to your land in the first place? (i get the slaves part, but the rest of Those Icky People were not slaves). then again there are a whole lot of things about people with penises i do not understand - like all the places you want to put it, like in Black people if you think they are animals and not people and you would have a half animal offspring, but i digress...

and if you as a group are determined to exterminate a minority group of people living in your land, then why put up camps and keep them alive for years?

it never made any sense to me, but then again, i guess the truth about us human beings is that we always gotta have a Those People so as we can explain why the world and our own life is not perfect like it should be if we just could get shut of Them. and there is always SOMEthing to disagree about.
   36. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 11, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4684481)
If I hated every human organization that has had someone evil working for it in the past 100 years, I'd basically be required to hate every human organization.
   37. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 11, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4684483)
i guess what i have never understood is this - if you think 'Group X" are Bad or Icky, why allow them to emigrate to your land in the first place?

The people who think they are Bad or Icky aren't the ones writing immigration policy. I'm sure, if they had the power, they'd have prevented them from showing up in the first place.
   38. base ball chick Posted: April 11, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4684504)
barry

i guess i think that there would be more fighting/killing/war over something like that then there was - i mean besides complaining/grumbling/hate
   39. McCoy Posted: April 11, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4684514)
In some cases it was virtually impossible from stopping them from moving, in other cases they were invited in only to be kicked out some time later, and still in other cases they were in power and then lost power.
   40. Shibal Posted: April 11, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4684519)
I wonder what the source for that quote is. It's not an easy one to believe.


I'm assuming some drunken Fat Toad told the writer this story one crazy night at the Yankees Suck bar and grill.
   41. KT's Pot Arb Posted: April 11, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4684530)
Yes, it's horrible that many Japanese were treated as they were. But there is a lot of second-guessing and Monday Morning Quarterbacking attached to that. Maybe had there been world enough and time....but let's pretend there wasn't reason and cause. If the wrong that is done to someone or some people takes Congress, the President, and the Supreme Court to act, more or less, in what amounts to accord (we see right now how hard that is to obtain), you probably will get all the legal protection that there is in this vale of tears we call life on this here earth. And it could have been a whole lot worse--ask those people in Nanking, or those American servicemen in the Pacific theater who were POWs under something a little more stringent than a detention camp.


Those who would accept diminution of their constitutional rights in the name of security, deserve neither.

It's though processes like this that allow the NSA to read your texts and emails, in order to protect you from goat herders.
   42. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 11, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4684579)
I wonder what the source for that quote is. It's not an easy one to believe.

it's one of those stories that has been around forever, but I've never seen any attribution. I know Charles Einstein mentioned it in Willie's Time, as well as the 2 Rogers (Angell and Kahn) in some random articles.
   43. Wins Above Paul Westerberg Posted: April 11, 2014 at 03:09 PM (#4684587)
Can somebody who knows a bit more about this explain the German POW camps we set up across the middle of the country during WWII? It's a lot different than our internment of American citizens, but it's something I'd never heard about and clearly would not happen today. I think.
   44. McCoy Posted: April 11, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4684611)
What exactly needs to be explained?
   45. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: April 11, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4684624)
I had an uncle who was an Army officer stationed at a stateside POW camp in WWII. First generation Italian American who was given the same choice as Moeball's father-in-law. He actually thought about accepting deportation, because most of his family (including my mom) was back in Italy. In the end he decided to enlist because he was, after all, a patriotic American, and while a family reunion would have been a good thing, having it in America would have been a far better thing. He never talked about anything along the lines of not being trusted to go to Europe and fight against other Italians. After all, they could have solved that problem by sending him to the Pacific. His take was that being a native speaker of Italian and nearly fluent in German made him a pretty obvious choice for the station he was assigned. And also that it was pretty easy duty as far as WWII options went. Ironically, he ended up earning a purple heart when some of the prisoners staged something of an uprising and he was wounded trying to defuse the situation.
   46. nick swisher hygiene Posted: April 11, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4684634)
if you think 'Group X" are Bad or Icky, why allow them to emigrate to your land in the first place?


well, there's no one "YOU" who allows things; there are conflicting perspectives, and the powerful win.

their thoughts? cheap / free labor for exploitation.

spreading the belief about Bad/Icky/Not Fully Human just serves to justify the exploitation.
   47. base ball chick Posted: April 11, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4684694)
nick

yeah - as aesop sez - any excuse justifies the tyrant

have been reading about the almost wars in NYC a few hundred years ago between Icky Group A and Icky Group B and Icky Group C etc. they called it "gangs" instead of tribes, i guess because that is how you are supposed to label various groups of europeans

i think it is eventually tough for even a couple of very rich to completely control large numbers of the Icky, especially once guns were invented. it is easier to keep them under control if you manage to convince them that they are inferior/garbage like the european rulers did with their slaves (yeah i know we are supposed to say peasant or serf even though they were slaves anyhow)

i personally think that the REAL reasons the jews have always got all this hate from pretty much every other group of humans for centuries is that no group in power ever managed to convince them that they were/are inferior and should think of them self that way. and like it. impressive - at least to me
   48. Morty Causa Posted: April 11, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4684722)

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