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Wednesday, June 28, 2017

OT-NBA off season thread


I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none that bothered to submit a monthly thread for nearly 4 months as to avoid detracting from what this site is really about: ... white privilege

RollingWave Posted: June 28, 2017 at 07:45 AM | 1472 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off topic

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   1. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5484375)
Phil out! Magic in! Knicks and the Lakers on TNT!
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:30 AM (#5484380)
Congrats to LaVar Ball on being named the new Knicks GM.
   3. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5484390)
   4. Wins Above Paul Westerberg Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5484396)
Woj says Chris Paul is moving to Houston for Beverly, Dekker, Williams and an '18 first rounder.

I don't exactly know how that offense will work now.

   5. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5484397)
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA 7m7 minutes ago
After Chris Paul agreed to opt-in on contract, Clippers are trading All-Star guard to the Houston Rockets, league sources tell @TheVertical
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5484398)
Woj bomb - Chris Paul dealt to the Rockets for Beverly, Decker, Williams, FRP
   7. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:45 AM (#5484399)
Paul to the Rockets! I was going to listen to the Dunc'd on offseason podcast, seems out-dated already!
   8. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:46 AM (#5484400)
Lob City is dead. RIP, you whiny, glorious bastards.
   9. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:48 AM (#5484402)
I don't exactly know how that offense will work now.

i'd guess paul runs the transition/7SOL; harden handles the iso/late clock situations.
   10. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:49 AM (#5484404)
I'll give this to the Clips--at least they got Dekker in the deal. That kid is a player.
   11. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5484407)
Woah. Everyone said the sign and trade was dead, including me.
   12. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5484410)
does LAC keep beverley, or do they spin him off to a 3rd team?
   13. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5484411)
Jeez, this is insane
   14. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5484413)
I am confused by the Chris Paul trade (assuming it is real). I am not sure I see the point for the Clips, the Rockets, or Chris Paul. I mean it must help someone somehow, but it doesn't seem to have nearly as much impact as trading a HOF caliber player should have. Am I missing how this trade changes the outlook of Houston dramatically or makes the future of the Clippers amazingly better?

I must be missing something.
   15. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5484414)
Wow, that is legitimately shocking.
   16. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:53 AM (#5484415)
I'll give this to the Clips--at least they got Dekker in the deal. That kid is a player.
is he? i guess he's not worse than wesley johnson
   17. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5484416)
i'd guess paul runs the transition/7SOL

Again, Paul really likes to play slow these days, doesn't he? I mean, maybe he'll up the pace and really it'll be a lot of fun to watch. I just can't picture it quite yet.
   18. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5484417)
I am confused by the Chris Paul trade (assuming it is real). I am not sure I see the point for the Clips, the Rockets, or Chris Paul. I mean it must help someone somehow, but it doesn't seem to have nearly as much impact as trading a HOF caliber player should have. Am I missing how this trade changes the outlook of Houston dramatically or makes the future of the Clippers amazingly better?

LAC: they were gonna lose paul in FA anyway
HOU: chris paul is a substantial upgrade over beverley
paul: it's gotta be fun for a PG to play for dan tony.
   19. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM (#5484419)
does LAC keep beverley, or do they spin him off to a 3rd team?

What's their cap situation now with and without Blake? If they're still capped out, they should just keep Beverley. If they have room, it's a great summer to be in the market for a point guard. Also, if Blake leaves, they may as well flip Beverley for an asset and go full rebuild.
   20. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:56 AM (#5484420)
I am confused by the Chris Paul trade (assuming it is real). I am not sure I see the point for the Clips, the Rockets, or Chris Paul.

CP3 and Harden supposedly really wanted to play together. CP3 is a FA, so the Clips get something out of him leaving. The Rockets add Chris ####### Paul to their team. CP3 opts in for this year, and signs a full max next year. Win/win/win
   21. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:57 AM (#5484424)
Again, Paul really likes to play slow these days, doesn't he? I mean, maybe he'll up the pace and really it'll be a lot of fun to watch. I just can't picture it quite yet.

My knee-jerk response is this will be a disaster. I see the theory of it but I don't think it's a good fit. Paul isn't Steve Nash and Harden and Paul don't seem to be deferential in the way Curry can be. It'll be fun to watch them work, though!
   22. JC in DC Posted: June 28, 2017 at 11:58 AM (#5484427)
Don't forget that West works for the Clips now. I've never been a huge Paul fan. The clips we're going nowhere and it's time to reconfigure the team. I believe in West.
   23. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5484429)
CP3 and Harden supposedly really wanted to play together.


OK that is what I was missing. I really don't see the basketball synergy between those two (at all), but the heart wants what the heart wants.

CP3 is a FA, so the Clips get something out of him leaving.


Meh. I mean I get it, but often I think teams would in general be better off just letting them walk rather than getting stuff back. This case might be diffeent, but I was emotionally damaged by the KG trade and the crap MN got back and how (IMO) it actually hurt the inevitable rebuild.

The Rockets add Chris ####### Paul to their team.


I just don't see that they get that much better. Butler is a worse player than CP3, but his addition to MN IMO makes MN way better than before. It is likely a lack of BBIQ on my part but I don't see the huge upgrade for Houston. I hope I am wrong, I want a challenger to the Warriors. More fun that way.
   24. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5484430)
I've never been a huge Paul fan.

Like as a human? Or his style? Because he's objectively one of the 2 or 3 best point guards of all time.
   25. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:02 PM (#5484431)
Meh. I mean I get it, but often I think teams would in general be better off just letting them walk rather than getting stuff back. This case might be diffeent, but I was emotionally damaged by the KG trade and the crap MN got back and how (IMO) it actually hurt the inevitable rebuild.

They would have still had no money to spend, given their many other bad contracts. So this gives them more pieces to work with, play, or trade.
   26. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5484432)
Mike McGraw‏ @McGrawDHBulls 2m2 minutes ago

Last year at this time, Rockets were coming off 41-41 season; #Bulls were 42-40. Each had a young all-star to build around...


...
   27. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5484433)
Also count me in for this is a bad fit, coach, players, all around.
   28. JC in DC Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5484436)
First of all, there's no "objective" here. I don't buy him as one of the best 2-3 pgs ever. I'm no slave to the stats. Paul never adds up to the sun off his parts, imho. I find him very frustrating. In addition, he's older, missed ~20 games last year. I think this is a good deal for the Clips.
   29. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5484438)
Yea, Paul and Harden are most effective with the ball in their hands. Paul is a pretty good shooter, but Beverly is good enough. Having Paul sit in a corner seems a waste while Harden runs the PnR with Capela or whoever.
   30. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:06 PM (#5484440)
Like as a human? Or his style? Because he's objectively one of the 2 or 3 best point guards of all time.
cup check
   31. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5484442)
Bobby Marks‏ @BobbyMarks42 2m2 minutes ago

Clippers would only have had $36m in cap space if they left CP, Blake and JJ (and all their FA) go in FA. Little $ with so many holes.

Bobby Marks‏ @BobbyMarks42 7m7 minutes ago

The Rockets would only have had $10m in cap space in FA. Would have needed to move each contract to create space. CP still w/bird rights.

Bobby Marks‏ @BobbyMarks42 5s6 seconds ago

LAC could have $70m+ in room during the summer of 2018. Slate would be wiped clean to put a plan in place for the future.
   32. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:11 PM (#5484445)
First of all, there's no "objective" here. I don't buy him as one of the best 2-3 pgs ever. I'm no slave to the stats.

So who do you have as better? Magic and...?
   33. aberg Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:13 PM (#5484446)
Morey is known to believe in gathering talent and figuring out the fit later. Even better if the players are enthusiastic about finding a fit. Paul is a big talent upgrade over what they gave up. I like it for Houston. They can be a super powered version of Toronto's backcourt.
   34. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5484450)
I'm really curious how the Clippers proceed from here. Blake remains a very risky long-term, max bet, given his injury history.
   35. JC in DC Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:15 PM (#5484451)
Are you kidding? There's no one else even possible in your mind? In addition, we're not debating where he stands in history, but making a trade for next year and down the line. This was a good deal for the Clips, who were going nowhere fast.
   36. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5484458)
I'm really curious how the Clippers proceed from here. Blake remains a very risky long-term, max bet, given his injury history.

I'd put a small amount of money he leaves now. I'd put a smaller amount of money it's to Miami.
   37. Booey Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:19 PM (#5484459)
So who do you have as better? Magic and...?


I'd personally rank him behind Oscar and Stock for now (longevity and in-season durability are big for me), but that'd still put him as my 4th best PG ever. I don't see an argument for anyone else. Maybe Curry in a few years.
   38. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5484460)
Does anyone else see a lot of Harrison Barnes in Dekker? I think he'll top out as a solid two-way player on a good team.
   39. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5484461)
Are you kidding? There's no one else even possible in your mind? In addition, we're not debating where he stands in history

Honestly no, not for me.

And we are literally debating it now, good-naturedly of course, because you objected to my characterization of him as objectively top 2-3 ever.
   40. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5484462)
What a bummer, I thought there was a chance he'd come to SA
   41. JC in DC Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5484464)
Oh, and so I'm not dodging the question, I'd put Stockton, Thomas, Robertson, Kidd, and Magic above him safely, then argue about some others.
   42. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5484465)
Does anyone else see a lot of Harrison Barnes in Dekker? I think he'll top out as a solid two-way player on a good team.

While I would first like to point out that Harrison Barnes is none of those things, that is an interesting comp. Dekker is already much better than I thought he'd be- definitely a useful player.
   43. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5484468)
I'd put Stockton, Thomas, Robertson, Kidd, and Magic above him safely, then argue about some others

Isiah Thomas?! Safely?! Oh man, we're worlds apart.
   44. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5484469)
Regarding Paul, I was thinking about this idea that he hasn't made the conference finals. Perhaps relatedly, it seems like good people who are listed as point guards are fairly easy to come by (Lin/Teague/Beverley class), and the ball-dominant wing like Harden is more of a thing. So while Paul is a great player... how many traditional point guard types have been the best player on a good team recently, the "short guy with court vision"?

In the last 27 years, the best guy on the champs has been a point guard twice (Curry 2015 and Billups 2004). (Same thing for Finals MVP -- Parker 2007 and Billups 2004 -- if you prefer a less wishy-washy definition of best guy). The ball-controlling wing happens a lot (Durant, Leonard, James x3, Kobe x2, Wade, Jordan x6), as does the big (Duncan x5, Shaq x3, Garnett, Olajuwon x2). I'm not sure how to classify Dirk here but he's not a point guard. On most of these teams, the second best player also wasn't a point guard (maybe Parker a couple times but I tend to give the edge to Ginobili on those teams; potentially Curry this year; but most of these were wing-wing or wing-big).

You could say that LeBron is a 6'9" point guard (at least the Heat version of LeBron) but maybe that's the takeaway -- in an era with guys like Harden and LeBron and Durant who are perfectly capable bigger point guards, the idea of building an offense around a 6'0" "pure" point doesn't really carry the day -- Paul may be the best guy listed at the 1 but no matter what he does he will never be as good a player as LeBron or Durant or Leonard or Davis (or even Westbrook or Harden) just for physical reasons.

I know the stats don't match that (that Paul's uberstats are really good) but I do wonder if there is a fundamental limitation in today's game where now bigger players are encouraged to play more of a versatile role in the offense, and are being developed in a way that encourages ball skills and court vision, to the point where you max out as a short guy by being a pure shooter Curry-style instead of a visionary Paul-style.
   45. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5484471)

Stephen A Smith (I know) just said that if Carmelo gets a buyout, he's headed to Houston.
   46. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:25 PM (#5484472)
While I would first like to point out that Harrison Barnes is none of those things

Are you sure you're not a Warriors fan? Come on now, HB was good for the Dubs until the last 3 games of 2016! That said, I will remain in KD's debt forever not for the title this year, but for saving the Warriors from having to max out Barnes. Whew!
   47. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5484476)
And now Brian Windhorst says the Rockets are pursuing Paul George.
   48. JC in DC Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5484478)
Man, you guys hate Isiah. He was a legitimately great player. He'd eat Chris Paul for desayuno.
   49. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5484482)
Man, you guys hate Isiah. He was a legitimately great player. He'd eat Chris Paul for desayuno.

Paul is better at every single thing. All of the things. Except for possibly s3xual harassment.
   50. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:28 PM (#5484483)
And now Brian Windhorst says the Rockets are pursuing Paul George.

With what assets I wonder?
   51. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5484485)
If Phil Jackson were still alive I wonder if they could move Ryan Anderson's terrible contract for Carmelo. So much dribbling! It would be something to behold.
   52. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:29 PM (#5484486)
Yeah no way the Celtics can't give more than the Rockets for George.
   53. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:30 PM (#5484488)
On a side note, if this and the Butler deal don't make future free agents head east, nothing will.
   54. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5484492)
I'd put a small amount of money he leaves now. I'd put a smaller amount of money it's to Miami.

Dragic/Blake/Whiteside is at least the start of something interesting. They really screwed up with the Tyler Johnson deal last summer, though, it would be easier to build something with more flexibility.
   55. No, TFTIO is the puppet Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5484493)
This is some glorious nonsense.
   56. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:33 PM (#5484494)
BTW, I appreciate that Morey is taking on the challenge of the Warriors instead of crying into his beer.

Also, Steph is already above Paul in the pantheon. 2 titles, best player on 3 67 win teams, 2 MVP's, possibly the greatest offensive season of all time...we're going to wait until he compiles before putting him ahead of Paul?
   57. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:34 PM (#5484496)
that 2018 rockets 1st round pick is top 3 protected.
Yeah no way the Celtics can't give more than the Rockets for George.
won't, not can't.
   58. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:35 PM (#5484497)
I feel sorry for Nate Duncan and the boys...their 4 hour mock offseason podcast is in flames.
   59. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:37 PM (#5484501)
I see the Rockets are trying to dump Anderson to make room for George, but wouldn't they have to include an asset WITH Anderson to dump him. And, assuming that, what the hell else do they have to give the Pacers?
   60. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:39 PM (#5484503)
wait, did HOU trade lou williams to LAC?
   61. Booey Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:39 PM (#5484504)
In the last 27 years, the best guy on the champs has been a point guard twice (Curry 2015 and Billups 2004).


With Durant's injury, you could possibly say that Curry was the most valuable player on the 2017 Warriors, but that's nitpicking (and KD was certainly the best in the playoffs).

I've noticed this too, though. Magic and Isiah led their teams to 7 of 11 titles from 1980-1990, but since then the majority of the best PG's have either gone ringless (Stockton, Nash, Paul), or were heading that way before picking up a "cheap" ring late in their career as a role player (Payton, Kidd). Most the current crop of great PG's will probably follow one of these 2 routes too (Westbrook, IT, Wall, Conley, Lowry, Lillard, etc).

It seems that PG really might be the toughest position to build a championship team around for some reason.

The ball-controlling wing happens a lot (Durant, Leonard, James x3, Kobe x2, Wade, Jordan x6), as does the big (Duncan x5, Shaq x3, Garnett, Olajuwon x2).


TBF, "wing" and "big" both account for 2 positions though, so there should be twice as many of each of these types leading their teams to titles as PG's. Still, the number of times it's actually happened is much more than twice as often, so I think your overall point is valid.
   62. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5484506)
wait, did HOU trade lou williams to LAC?

Yes. Williams, Dekker, Beverley and a top 3 protected 2018 pick.
   63. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:40 PM (#5484507)
This sucks, I think if I can't sign a big player and the Celtics improve as expected and LMA really wants to leave I trade him for the best offer available (hopefully some cost controlled pieces) and shoot for next offseason to really reform the team.
   64. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5484509)
Also, Steph is already above Paul in the pantheon. 2 titles, best player on 3 67 win teams, 2 MVP's, possibly the greatest offensive season of all time...we're going to wait until he compiles before putting him ahead of Paul?

It's not compiling: Paul was the better player through their respective first 8 seasons (which is Curry's career to date). It's only a difference of 4 ppg in scoring, too, so it's not like there is an overwhelming scoring advantage, which Paul more than makes up for elsewhere.
   65. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5484510)
Lebron to the Spurs 2018, you heard it here first.
   66. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:41 PM (#5484511)
I love that, temporarily, Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford are on the same team.
   67. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:43 PM (#5484513)
It's not compiling: Paul was the better player through their respective first 8 seasons (which is Curry's career to date). It's only a difference of 4 ppg in scoring, too, so it's not like there is an overwhelming scoring advantage, which Paul more than makes up for elsewhere.

I'm more of a peak guy, I guess.
   68. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5484517)
I'm more of a peak guy, I guess.

Fair enough- I'm also not going to argue that Curry isn't on his way to being the better player, it certainly looks like he'll comfortably pass him.
   69. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:49 PM (#5484521)
Also, for the record, Paul had some pretty incredible single seasons, too. Here's their respective best against each other. Now, only one of those ended with 73 wins, so there's that.
   70. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5484522)
Lebron to the Spurs 2018, you heard it here first.
2018 free agency is shaping up to be kind of insane. paul, george, ringo, lebron. the dream banana boat team is still theoretically on track.
   71. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5484523)
Does anyone else see a lot of Harrison Barnes in Dekker? I think he'll top out as a solid two-way player on a good team.

Yes, though I'm also not 100% sure I know exactly what Harrison Barnes is.

JC in DC: I think you're pretty wrong about Paul, but I'd like to hear more of your thinking.

This trade: huh. I think anything other than "this makes Houston better" is a hot take - Paul is really, really good - but Beverley was a great fit and underrated player*, Lou is good - even given the bad fit with Gordon, Dekker is spackle (meant as a compliment, he fits in with lots of lineups) -- but I'm not sure how a Paul/Harden tandem works for the same reasons others aren't sure. Worth a shot and LAC did well to not lose him outright.


* While not Mahinmi level love - you can find multiple posts where I talked about Pat before he stuck in the league. Big fan.
   72. Booey Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:53 PM (#5484526)
Man, you guys hate Isiah.


Well yes, but that's not why we rank him so much lower than the old time consensus.

He was a legitimately great player


Not nearly as great as people think. The advanced stats show him to be horribly overrated. It's generally assumed that every team needs an MVP contender to win a title (and 90% of the time that's true), so that reputation was seemingly bestowed upon Thomas by default since the Pistons won a couple of rings. But those Bad Boys teams were deeper than they get credit for and less reliant on any single player, and Zeke was never really an MVP caliber player.
   73. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:53 PM (#5484527)
2018 free agency is shaping up to be kind of insane. paul, george, ringo, lebron. the dream banana boat team is still theoretically on track.

Paul can sign an extension with the Rockets in 6 months, so he may not make it to free agency. I have to think there's some kind of handshake deal there. It would be funny if this Harden-Paul thing doesn't work out and the Rockets just let him walk.
   74. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:58 PM (#5484536)
double
   75. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 12:59 PM (#5484537)
Whoa, we all missed this apparently:
Marc J. Spears‏
@MarcJSpearsESPN
The Mavs traded guard DeAndre Liggins to the Rockets in exchange for cash considerations.
   76. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5484542)
Tim Bontemps @TimBontemps
D'Angelo Russell gets introduced for the first time at Barclays Center since being traded here last week. He gets received with lots of boos
   77. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:03 PM (#5484544)
From Windhorst:
Paul Pierce & Clippers have agreed to extend the deadline on his contract to enable him to be traded before he retires, sources say. About $1M of Pierce's $3.6M is guaranteed but he could be traded or aggregated into a larger deal. Gives Clippers another asset if they need to use it.
   78. DCA Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5484546)
Magic and Isiah led their teams to 7 of 11 titles from 1980-1990, but since then the majority of the best PG's have either gone ringless (Stockton, Nash, Paul), or were heading that way before picking up a "cheap" ring late in their career as a role player (Payton, Kidd).

I think you are reading too much into what actually happened and not enough into what almost happened. A few dominoes fall differently and it's another story.

The Stockton/Malone finals teams were legitimately all-time great teams. They just had the misfortunate to run into one of the few teams who were better (and not by much). If Jordan's sabbatical happened a few years later, it is Stockton/Malone not Olajuwon who gets the narrative points without anything actually being different.

Nash's best chance was derailed by a Robert Horry thug move. In a full analysis it probably only moved the Suns' championship probability by 0.1 to 0.2 but I thought they were going all the way and then it was clear they weren't. Also, Steve Nash is probably my favorite NBA player ever, but MVPs aside he's not in the Magic/Stockton/Paul class.

Neither is Isiah, and those Pistons were an ensemble cast, kind of like the 2004 Pistons. I think most people here would agree that Billups was probably better than Isiah, both career and in championship seasons.

Paul admittedly has never been close to the finals.
   79. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5484547)
Chandler Parsons‏Verified account @ChandlerParsons 7m7 minutes ago

Is it too late to lock CP in a house
   80. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5484551)
Going back a bit ...

They would have still had no money to spend, given their many other bad contracts. So this gives them more pieces to work with, play, or trade.


My assumptions are:
1) When trading a HOF player you will never get value back.
2) You will get a bunch of stuff, stuff with contracts than now you are stuck with
3) Trading as much of that stuff as you can doesn't help all that much, because in general you will tend to get equal value for stuff, so you are just shifting things around
4) You will be helped in the short term, but I don't think teams (most of the time) should be run with a tiny window.
5) When you lose a HOF player it will crush your team. Get the pain over with as soon as possible, half measures only delay the inevitable


But I could very easily be wrong. I often am.
   81. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5484555)
Darren Rovell @darrenrovell
Phil Jackson worked for the Knicks for 1,200 days. He was paid $60 million for it or $50,000 a day.
   82. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:08 PM (#5484557)
Pretty good, Chandler.
   83. J. Sosa Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:14 PM (#5484570)
re: Paul

I'm more or less with Supporter and Booey. I think there are structural reasons that Paul tends to be overrated or has limitations depending on your POV. It is kind of like comparing a shortstop to a first baseman that both hit the same. Wings and bigs can do more to impact a game, harking back to the team selection of Planet Earth vs aliens discussion before the draft. I argued in favor of dropping the PG using that line of reasoning. That especially applies to stumpy point guards.

re: George

It doesn't really matter how many assets the Celtics have if George says behind the scenes that he isn't going to commit long term. NBA trades with star players have become more like soccer transfers. You have the selling party, the buying party, and the player. It doesn't matter how much the buying party offers if the player prefers somewhere else. Now usually those three tend to work together, because the big transfer fee often means the most money for the player, but in the NBA that doesn't really apply. George has to want to go to Boston.

re: Banana Boat Voltron

Still in play.
   84. Booey Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:20 PM (#5484579)
I think you are reading too much into what actually happened and not enough into what almost happened. A few dominoes fall differently and it's another story.


Fair enough.

The Stockton/Malone finals teams were legitimately all-time great teams. They just had the misfortunate to run into one of the few teams who were better (and not by much). If Jordan's sabbatical happened a few years later, it is Stockton/Malone not Olajuwon who gets the narrative points without anything actually being different.


No argument here. ;-) Though TBF, by the time the Jazz made the Finals, Malone was clearly the best player on the team. As someone who watched A LOT of Jazz games during those years, I'd say that Stockton and Malone were of roughly equal importance to Utah's success from about 1988-1996, but Malone took the lead in 1997 and held it until the duo parted ways in 2003.

You didn't mention GP, but I think the 1996 Sonics were also a legitimately great team that don't get their proper due mainly cuz of unfortunate timing.

Nash's best chance was derailed by a Robert Horry thug move. In a full analysis it probably only moved the Suns' championship probability by 0.1 to 0.2 but I thought they were going all the way and then it was clear they weren't.


Yeah, but personally I don't think those Suns were winning that series anyway. And if they did, I actually think they would've been only slight favorites to beat the DWill/Boozer/Okur/Ak-47 Jazz in the WCF. They had the better record, of course, but Utah matched up well with them and actually won the season series 3-1, including both games in Phoenix. As we saw with the Mavs and Warriors earlier in those same playoffs, match ups can matter as much as regular season records do.

Despite back to back Finals appearances in a trainwreck conference, Kidd's teams were never really title caliber teams, IMO.
   85. Moses Taylor, Unwavering Optimist Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:26 PM (#5484590)
2018 free agency is shaping up to be kind of insane. paul, george, ringo, lebron. the dream banana boat team is still theoretically on track.

No, Paul is off the market. I'm pretty sure part of the deal is the extension, either now or later.
   86. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:30 PM (#5484595)
Albert Nahmad‏ @AlbertNahmad

Albert Nahmad Retweeted Adrian Wojnarowski

Rockets goal now transparent. Blazers get $543K trade exception. Rockets take him into room, can be aggregated!


This goes beyond my cap expertise. The Rockets seem to be trading for guys they are going to waive in order to build a larger trade exception. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

edit: It seems they are buying players for cash to send to the Clippers to get the trade exception, not to waive them. So Liggins and Quarterman would be heading to the Clips.
   87. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:36 PM (#5484601)
I agree that the basketball fit with Paul and Harden is questionable. But at the very least, Harden won't have to face all those questions about why he flamed out against the Spurs. Having a certified alpha on the team might be what he needs.
   88. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:39 PM (#5484605)
This goes beyond my cap expertise. The Rockets seem to be trading for guys they are going to waive in order to build a larger trade exception. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

edit: It seems they are buying players for cash to send to the Clippers to get the trade exception, not to waive them. So Liggins and Quarterman would be heading to the Clips.

The salaries also didn't match. They have to send more salary to LAC than was in initially reported deal, but the Clippers obviously don't want to actually take on those salaries so they're seeking non-guaranteed deals than can then be waived (by LAC) after being used for salary-matching purposes.
   89. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:41 PM (#5484606)
#88. Thanks.
   90. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:42 PM (#5484608)
There's also something about Houston going over the cap so they can have the full mid-level available to them after July 1?
   91. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:43 PM (#5484609)
Mark Deeks‏Verified account @MarkDeeksNBA 13m13 minutes ago

Quarterman, Liggins, Dekker, Lou Williams, Beverley = $16,279,727. Magic number is $17,868,827.


Looks like the Rockets have a little more work to do.
   92. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:51 PM (#5484618)
This would be a good time for colangelo to offload gerald henderson
   93. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5484621)
Speaking of great teams that didn't get their due because of bad timing, what about the Spurs the last two years? Especially last years team.
   94. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:54 PM (#5484624)
Clippers also getting Montrezl Harrell.
   95. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:56 PM (#5484627)
Everyone suggesting there is now a lot of pressure on teams to get to George before Houston can figure that one out, and I agree. Lakers should be worried, and Boston needs to actually make a move if they really want him.
   96. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:57 PM (#5484628)
Adding Harrell makes the money work. Call it in, Morey!
   97. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5484630)
Everyone suggesting there is now a lot of pressure on teams to get to George before Houston can figure that one out, and I agree.

If they can dump Anderson and Gordon, it could happen. Gordon is an easy one, but I can't see anyone taking on Anderson without a sweetener. If they dump both, they'd have the room to go after Millsap if they wanted if George is off the table.
   98. Shooty is obsessed with the latest hoodie Posted: June 28, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5484631)
Tim MacMahon‏Verified account @espn_macmahon 25s25 seconds ago

Source on Rockets: "They think they are getting Carmelo or Paul George."


That's like me saying I'm going to get lobster bisque or Top Ramen. (Sorry Melo.)

edit: Also, The Melo-D'Antoni reunion must happen. Get involved Adam Silver!
   99. King Mekong Posted: June 28, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5484634)
It just doesn't seem possible that the Rox will put together the best offer for George and I don't see any reasons why the Pacers would rush into a worse offer than they would get by waiting.

edit: Melo seems much more realistic.
   100. jmurph Posted: June 28, 2017 at 02:03 PM (#5484636)
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