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Wednesday, June 28, 2017

OT-NBA off season thread


I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none that bothered to submit a monthly thread for nearly 4 months as to avoid detracting from what this site is really about: ... white privilege

RollingWave Posted: June 28, 2017 at 07:45 AM | 2859 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off topic

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   1801. PJ Martinez Posted: August 12, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5511949)
flip for real
   1802. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 14, 2017 at 06:05 PM (#5513139)
Michael K-B @therealmikekb
#sixers will have 23 (!) nationally televised games this season between ESPN, TNT, & NBATV.
   1803. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: August 14, 2017 at 10:05 PM (#5513258)
The day the NBA schedule is released is an amazing day.

Games I'm angling to go to:

San Antonio vs. Memphis (March 5)
Milwaukee vs. San Antonio (March 25)
Minneapolis vs. New Orleans (Jan 6) OR Minneapolis vs. Toronto (Jan 20)

I was about to say Minneapolis vs. New Orleans (Feb 3) was in the running, but as that's the day before the Super Bowl in Minneapolis, that's a no go.
   1804. Chicago Joe Posted: August 15, 2017 at 01:25 AM (#5513379)
Meyers Leonard could not handle New York City with my liver.
   1805. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 16, 2017 at 07:08 PM (#5514786)
why am i posting news about an NFL team firing its doctors after they misdiagnosed an injury? hmmm? what. could. i. possibly. be. implying.
The Saints have fired team orthopedists Deryk Jones and Misty Suri, per source, after it was discovered that CB Delvin Breaux has a fractured fibula and will require surgery expected to sidelined him for 4-6 weeks. Breaux was originally diagnosed with a contusion – and the team was frustrated that he wasn't recovering more quickly until the missed diagnosis was revealed. It was accurately reported that the team has had an issue with Breaux's string of nagging injuries in the past, but this case is different. And it seems unlikely at this point that the team will be as eager to trade or release Breaux.



   1806. jmurph Posted: August 17, 2017 at 05:09 PM (#5515705)
From Hoops Rumors:
Veteran forward Udonis Haslem is the latest Heat player to express interest in bringing back Dwyane Wade if he agrees to a buyout in Chicago, writes Ira Winderman of The Sun Sentinel. Interest in the possibility was reignited with a report Wednesday that Wade and the Bulls could part ways at some point this season.

I don't begrudge the guy his money, I'm sure he's a prince among men, but why in god's name are the Heat still paying Udonis Haslem millions of dollars per year? $4 million last year for 130 minutes! That's like three games for a Thibodeau player. If they want him around for the younger guys why don't they just make him a coach?
   1807. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 19, 2017 at 02:16 PM (#5516876)
LEAGUE PASS POWER RANKINGS
2 76ERS
Everybody is excited to see the culmination 76ers' Process. Joel Embiid looked like a future face of the league last season. They have the past two overall No. 1 picks (Markelle Fultz, Ben Simmons), and they signed veterans (J.J. Redick, Amir Johnson) to help them win. Philly could make a playoff run in the weak East (SportsLine projects 40.2 wins, good for the No. 7 seed).
20 LAKERS
The Lakers are young, and play a fun style. Is this the season they take a step forward? Probably not, but there's enough young talent (Lonzo Ball!) on this roster to make them watchable -- and you can see them plenty; L.A. is on national TV 35 times.

29 BULLS
The Bulls traded their most entertaining player in Butler. The main prize of that trade, Zach Lavine, may miss the beginning of the season with an injury. Dwyane Wade is seeking a buyout. Rajon Rondo is gone. Don't pay extra to watch the Bulls -- if you watch them at all.


link
   1808. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 19, 2017 at 02:28 PM (#5516881)
the mavs are way too low. dennis smith jr and nerlens noel should be insanely fun to watch. the suns are also underrated, assuming bledsoe stays healthy. the raptors should be bottom 5.

there's a strong underclass of unwatchable this year. CHI/NYK/DET/IND/ORL/ATL. even some teams that could be good (UTA/TOR/NOP/WAS/MEM/MIA) are likely to be boring/uninteresting.
   1809. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 20, 2017 at 09:29 PM (#5517643)
The possibility of impermissible contact between Los Angeles Lakers president of basketball operations Magic Johnson and four-time All-Star Paul George is at the crux of an NBA probe into possible tampering, league sources tell ESPN.

The Indiana Pacers filed tampering charges with the NBA against the Lakers, and the league issued a statement Sunday saying that a probe is underway.

...If the league office's probe can prove the Lakers were guilty of tampering with George while he was under contract with Indiana, Los Angeles can be punished in several ways, including a loss of draft picks, financial fines up to $5 million, future restrictions on acquiring George and possible suspensions of offending officials.

link
   1810. aberg Posted: August 21, 2017 at 12:42 PM (#5517916)
there's a strong underclass of unwatchable this year. CHI/NYK/DET/IND/ORL/ATL. even some teams that could be good (UTA/TOR/NOP/WAS/MEM/MIA) are likely to be boring/uninteresting.


I don't think NOP will be uninteresting. They might be a disaster but it will be interesting. I'm with you on that first list, though. I doubt I'll watch a game between any of those 2 teams at any point all year. Maybe NYK hosting someone if there isn't another game on, just to get Clyde and the Garden.
   1811. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: August 21, 2017 at 02:35 PM (#5517984)
GS should be way higher than 18. Agree that ATL is the worst (sigh).
   1812. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: August 21, 2017 at 04:33 PM (#5518063)
I don't think Milwaukee belongs anywhere near #1 on that list. I mean, they have exciting young players, but that doesn't always make an exciting team. Middleton will help with their spacing, but ultimately they're still a team that can really struggle to score and shoot the basketball. Their pace is quite low. I think people confuse the talent/promise/idea of the Bucks with how it actually looks on the court.
   1813. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 21, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5518066)
...If the league office's probe can prove the Lakers were guilty of tampering with George while he was under contract with Indiana, Los Angeles can be punished in several ways, including a loss of draft picks, financial fines up to $5 million, future restrictions on acquiring George and possible suspensions of offending officials.
They could just keep the Lakers from getting Chris Paul. #ForeverBitter
   1814. RJ in TO Posted: August 21, 2017 at 04:42 PM (#5518070)
For an NBA team, would a fine of $5 million really matter to them at all, especially if whatever action that led to the fine also led to them landing an elite player? I'd assume it would be viewed as just a rounding error on whatever the final contract was.

I could certainly see the other things mattering, but the fine seems like a pointlessly trivial deterrent.
   1815. Paul d mobile Posted: August 21, 2017 at 05:07 PM (#5518088)
   1816. Booey Posted: August 21, 2017 at 05:48 PM (#5518117)
#1815 - Some of those are actually pretty cool. Better than the Raptors real logo (and those of the original teams that they're spoofing). Others are amusingly bad (like the Celtics and Sixers spin-offs).
   1817. cmd600 Posted: August 21, 2017 at 07:11 PM (#5518154)
GS should be way higher than 18.


You'd only be paying for 39 Warriors games. They're on a national broadcast more often than not.
   1818. TFTIO sings Medieval Agrarian History Posted: August 21, 2017 at 08:46 PM (#5518184)
#1815: I actually really like the Wolves one.
   1819. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 22, 2017 at 05:41 PM (#5518821)
   1820. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:49 PM (#5518853)
Suddenly there is a lot of smoke about a Kyrie trade with Boston. ESPN reporting that it centers on IT and Crowder, maybe also including draft picks.

I've wondered if it might make sense for the Celtics to try to flip IT for Kyrie, but it seems like there would be a high price to pay to kick the contract issue for the scoring PG down the road for one year.
   1821. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:52 PM (#5518854)
Sources: Boston, Cleveland nearing deal on Kyrie Irving, but details still working to completion. Isaiah Thomas, Crowder, pick(s) in talks.


I really like this for Cleveland.

IT/Crowder/Zizic combination would save the Cavaliers $19M in taxes. Tax bill goes from $78.4M to $59.2M.


So does Dan Gilbert.

Edit:. Also supposedly LeBron is confident Wade will end up there too after a buyout. That's not as helpful for them.
   1822. PJ Martinez Posted: August 22, 2017 at 06:53 PM (#5518855)
Irving's also three years younger, and he doesn't have the same size issues as Isaiah (though I'm not sure he's much better on defense regardless). His pedigree suggests he may have a higher ceiling, though Isaiah, offensively, was awfully awfully good last year.

As a Celtics fan, I don't like the sound of things so far.
   1823. cmd600 Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:23 PM (#5518878)
Love love love this deal as a Cavs fan. I wonder who Lebron will want to trade that unprotected for.
   1824. PJ Martinez Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:24 PM (#5518880)
Oof, this seems brutal: "Cavs agree to deal Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and 2018 Nets pick, source told ESPN."
   1825. theboyqueen Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:30 PM (#5518882)
What a steal for the Cavs. How the hell did they pull this off? Not sure I would even trade Crowder straight up for Kyrie. Crowder has one of the best deals in the league.
   1826. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:30 PM (#5518883)
What in the world is Danny Ainge doing!?
   1827. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:31 PM (#5518884)
Can't believe they're giving up that pick unprotected too.
   1828. CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:35 PM (#5518887)
It's easy to make fun of the Cavs, but that seems like a pretty damned good salvage job on a crummy situation, no?
   1829. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:41 PM (#5518890)
Unfathomably terrible trade by Ainge. To finally part with the 2018 Nets pick, in a trade where you're giving up Isaiah Thomas, is just impossible to fathom. And it's just completely out of whack with the market established in the other recent "kind-of-superstar-but-kinda-notreally" trades.
   1830. cmd600 Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:44 PM (#5518893)
Man is Lebron against Irving in the ECF going to be fun to watch.
   1831. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:45 PM (#5518895)
It's such a bad trade that I need to see actual final confirmation of the Nets pick being included. I'm not buying it yet.
   1832. JC in DC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:45 PM (#5518896)
I think this deal is closer than some of you guys think. Irving is the best player in the trade (I know you guys don't all agree, but clearly NBA front offices do). Crowder is relatively expendable, no? You've got Tatum, the white guy, Morris, Brown, Horford, and I'm sure I'm forgetting guys, in the frontcourt. What is Zizic likely to become? Is he is as good - and I'm serious - as Willy Hernangomez? And I think we often overvalue picks. I agree the deal is very good for Cleveland, but I don't think this is horrible on Ainge's part.
   1833. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:47 PM (#5518899)
At least the Knicks didn't give up the farm for him. Though it wouldn't shock me if the Knicks were stupid enough to offer KP, and the Cavs shopped the offer. Nothing would shock me with the Knicks, so there's that.
   1834. JC in DC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:48 PM (#5518900)
Yeah, the big win is for the Knicktilina's.
   1835. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:50 PM (#5518902)
Man is Lebron against Irving embiid in the ECF going to be fun to watch.
FTFY
   1836. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:50 PM (#5518903)
If Kyrie is really like a top 10 player like Simmons said then I guess you do what it takes to get him!

This seems like a lot to give up, but I guess Boston can only play 5 guys at a time.
   1837. Blanks for Nothing, Larvell Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:52 PM (#5518904)
He's not.

Plus he thinks the Earth is flat, plus in vintage 2001 style, he just whined his way off a great team because he wanted his "own team."
   1838. JJ1986 Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:54 PM (#5518906)
I don't think Zizic is anything, but Crowder will help the Cavs against the Warriors (and Celtics) and that pick is one more chance for the Celtics to draft a superstar gone out the door.
   1839. JJ1986 Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:57 PM (#5518909)
I do wonder if the Cavs try to trade Kevin Love now. I think playing him and Thomas against the best teams will get picked on even more than Love and Kyrie did.
   1840. cmd600 Posted: August 22, 2017 at 07:59 PM (#5518910)
First game on the first night of the season - Celtics at Cavs. Its like Stern personally intervened here.
   1841. nick swisher hygiene Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:01 PM (#5518911)
Well, it's early, but I'll set the over/under for NBA finals appearances for the Irving Celtics.......0.5 look right?
   1842. theboyqueen Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:02 PM (#5518913)
Crowder is expendable if you have Gordon Hayward I guess, but that's hardly a reason to toss him into a deal like this. Otto Porter just got 4/100M to be Jae Crowder, who is ludicrously underpaid.

IT and Kyrie are both useless defenders, but IT can murder you all day in pick and roll and from the line. I don't think Kyrie's offensive game is quite as reliable.

And then the Brooklyn pick? Brooklyn is a runaway favorite to be the worst team in the NBA. That's very likely a #1 pick!
   1843. sardonic Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:10 PM (#5518917)
I don't hate this deal for Boston since I had IT4 lower than most, but I'm a bit surprised they gave up the Brooklyn pick as well. Makes me curious who they were bidding against, especially given Danny Ainge's seeming stinginess in trade deals.

Still... Kyrie/Marcus Smart/Gordon Hayward/Marcus Morris/Al Horford is nothing to sneeze at. Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum coming off the bench on the wing helps too.
   1844. MHS Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:13 PM (#5518919)
Terrible trade for Celtics. The inclusion of the nets pick is a dramatic overpay, with no assurances Kyrie doesn't walk.

Thomas, has been better than Kyrie. I'll grant that maybe context but god that's a huge premium.
   1845. jmurph Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:13 PM (#5518920)
Most shocking deal I can remember. I'm stunned.
   1846. jmurph Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:17 PM (#5518924)
Some thoughts, still turning it over:
- This probably confirms Boston didn't see Isaiah as a guy they wanted to max out for 5 years.
- One extra year of Kyrie is worth a lot when swapping him for Isaiah.
- It's not worth THAT much.
- So they clearly value Kyrie a lot more than Isaiah (duh). Perhaps also confident they'll get him to opt-in? That might be far-fetched.
   1847. theboyqueen Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:19 PM (#5518926)
Kyrie/Marcus Smart/Gordon Hayward/Marcus Morris/Al Horford
with
Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum coming off the bench on the wing
doesn't look like a much better Celtics team than what they had last year, if at all. I kind of prefer Amir Johnson to Marcus Morris, to be honest. I love Horford but he doesn't look to be aging very well.

It will be interesting to see if Brad Stevens can get something coherent out of Kyrie, who seems to enjoy doing his own thing.

   1848. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:21 PM (#5518927)
Kyrie/Smart/Hayward/Marcus Morris/Horford is nowhere close to championship caliber unless one of those people takes a big step forward and/or Stevens is a wizard. You can't rule out those two things, but I just like really don't see it. No good enough #1 and Smart and Morris would each easily be the worst starter on those 04 Pistons for that model.
   1849. jmurph Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:30 PM (#5518933)
Kyrie/Smart/Hayward/Marcus Morris/Horford is nowhere close to championship caliber unless one of those people takes a big step forward and/or Stevens is a wizard.

I think this is unquestionably a better playoff team than last year's version. So that's a step forward. And they're a little younger, with all of their key players signed for 2 or more years.

They've also given up a lot.

I'm torn, but I'm seeing a lot of people whose takes I don't trust (on twitter) coming out so strongly for the Cavs I'm inclined to think it's a fair deal.
   1850. jmurph Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:34 PM (#5518936)
I kind of prefer Amir Johnson to Marcus Morris, to be honest.

Amir is more than cooked. Played 10 minutes a game in the playoffs and was terrible, he just can't give serious, meaningful minutes anymore.
   1851. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:45 PM (#5518942)
Hombre's Hot Take:

Kyrie's the best player in the deal, and the Celtics are better up front. They needed someone to create consistent offense. Irving's ability to get to the rim is something the Celtics didn't have last season. They're not as deep now, but their front-line talent is clearly better.

The Cavs got much, much, better for this year, and they have a leg up on rebuilding after Lebron leaves.
   1852. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:46 PM (#5518944)
Adam Himmelsbach @AdamHimmelsbach
Or, this is easier. Here are the returning Celtics from the Eastern Conference finals team: Horford, Jaylen, Rozier, Smart. That's it.
   1853. PJ Martinez Posted: August 22, 2017 at 08:55 PM (#5518952)
Irving's ability to get to the rim is something the Celtics didn't have last season.

This is an imperfect proxy, but Thomas shot twice as many free throws per game as Irving did last year. Thomas is very good at getting to the rim.
   1854. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:06 PM (#5518960)
An expectation that Kyrie will go nuclear against the Cavs in the ECF must be a part of Ainge's calculus, right?
   1855. madvillain Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:09 PM (#5518965)
Thomas is very good at getting to the rim.


He's very good at convincing the officials to blow the whistle.
   1856. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:10 PM (#5518966)
This is an imperfect proxy, but Thomas shot twice as many free throws per game as Irving did last year.
That's likely a consequence of James and not Irving being the Cavs' primary ball handler. I don't know that Irving'll get 8 FTAs a game, but he'll definitely get more. Adding him and Heyward to the starting 5 makes that team better. Overall, though, I'm meh on the deal for Boston. It seems to help their biggest conference rival a lot more than it helps them.
   1857. JC in DC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:23 PM (#5518979)
Hombre's hot take = JCinDC's now room temperature take.
   1858. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:23 PM (#5518980)
Personally I am no more sanguine about maxing Kyrie out than maxing Isaiah out. My two concerns about Isaiah are unlikelihood of aging gracefully and defense. Kyrie is much younger, but he's got a checkered medical record. As for defense... I'd almost rather have the guy who sucks at defense because he's just too small than the guy who sucks at defense because he doesn't give a #### about defense.
   1859. JC in DC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:29 PM (#5518985)
I'm still kinda stunned by how quickly Cleveland's team fell apart. One minute, they're winning the championship, then, they're defending it unsuccessfully in the Finals, then Irving says he wants out, and now he's gone. That's quite a ride.
   1860. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:35 PM (#5518993)
I would rather have Kyrie for two years than Isaiah obviously, and Kyrie can up his intensity on defense to reach a level in the playoffs that Isaiah can't so maybe even just for next year Kyrie > Thomas (but I don't think it's a huge difference), but this trade is nuts. I don't buy RPM, but Crowder is a great fit on any team and his contract is a steal. I think including him and the Brooklyn pick means that the Celtics are significantly worse both in the short and long-term with this deal.
   1861. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5519001)
I've been expecting someone would estimate Kyrie to be a far better player than he is and dramatically overpay for him. I just didn't expect it to be Ainge. He could have gotten Jimmy Butler (and his much better contract) for that package. Even the Bulls wouldn't be dumb enough to turn it down. (...right?)
   1862. PJ Martinez Posted: August 22, 2017 at 09:55 PM (#5519024)
A Butler deal probably looks a little different, but is maybe similar in terms of value. It probably includes Jaylen Brown, say, instead of Isaiah, and maybe somebody else instead of Zizic to make the salaries work or something? But yeah, there seems to be enough reporting to suggest that Boston was very reluctant to include the Nets pick in trades for Butler or George, but then Irving becomes available and boom. Weird.
   1863. JC in DC Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:02 PM (#5519034)
If I were Cleveland's GM, I'd be thinking, "Now, how do I add 'Melo to this?"
   1864. jmurph Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:13 PM (#5519052)
But yeah, there seems to be enough reporting to suggest that Boston was very reluctant to include the Nets pick in trades for Butler or George, but then Irving becomes available and boom. Weird.

I think the logical conclusions from that are:
- Boston was very confident it could land Hayward; they felt Butler and Hayward would be redundant.
- They'd rather try to build around Kyrie for the next 7 years than Isaiah for the next 6.

I don't necessarily endorse those ideas, but I think that's what we can infer.

(Also, George was given away for a mediocre player on a terrible contract and a no-upside young guy. I don't think any lessons should be taken from that deal.)
   1865. PJ Martinez Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:38 PM (#5519076)
Right, also there's the George-supposedly-will-just-go-to-LA wrinkle. So that's not a perfect comparison.

I think Ainge really likes Irving and believes he'll get better as he hits the heart of his prime. We'll see.
   1866. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:45 PM (#5519084)
Add me to firmly in the Cavs camp.

Kyrie may be the best player, but I do really think it's close between the top 3 guys. Plus that pick!

Let's say the Pelicans collapse midyear and Davis requests a trade. Love + Nets pick + a couple other picks for Davis?

What would Utah say to Love + Nets pick + maybe something small for Gobert? I don't know that Cleveland does that, but man... Gobert + LeBron/Crowder at the 3/4 would be perfect for defending the Warriors.
   1867. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:47 PM (#5519087)
If the Jazz try to trade for Love it will be to pair him with Gobert. I don't think there's any way they trade Gobert short of knowing it's the #1 pick with a prospect they love.
   1868. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: August 22, 2017 at 10:47 PM (#5519088)
Of course, if you're positive LeBron leaves after this season, then maybe you really don't want to move that Nets pick. But, I feel like this has just made this year's team way more competitive. Holy ####, they needed someone like Crowder. He's such a perfect fit to be the real version of what Richard Jefferson was attempting to be.
   1869. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:12 PM (#5519111)
Here is what I have come up with in trying to justify this from Danny Ainge's point of view: if you think Kyrie is as good as his reputation, or going to grow away from LeBron, then flipping him for IT is a good choice, especially if you think you can resign him. Throwing in Crowder sucks, but if you feel good betting on Brown and Tatum if clears up your wing rotation. Zizic is unproven and the pick hurts but you still should have a lottery pick and your own first rounder. This sort of cleans up their plan, although I think it's a crazy amount in aggregate. Plus they get to keep Shane Larkin now that they don't have sixteen guaranteed contracts?

Really I think it means Ainge is trying to have this team at its best in two or three years, and 25 year old Kyrie fits that better than 28 year old IT. I'm not sure he's wrong about that part, but you have to like Kyrie more than I do to make it worth it. I agree that Crowder really helps the Cavs, though. He'll be great defensively next to LeBron, and they can use his shooting. (I guess anyone can use a good 3 and D guy, but the Cavs in particular.)
   1870. sardonic Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:40 PM (#5519124)
To be clear, I don't hate it for Boston but I don't like it either. It's arguable that the Brooklyn pick is the most valuable asset in the deal, and it's not clear who they were bidding against. Would Cleveland rather have Bledsoe and Josh Jackson over IT4 and Crowder? I don't think Ainge parts with that pick he values so much unless he was really pushed.
   1871. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 22, 2017 at 11:58 PM (#5519131)
To be clear, I don't hate it for Boston but I don't like it either.
That's my thing. I do think Irving is better than Thomas by a fair bit, but it's not some massive advantage. I don't understand what's to be gained by also improving the Cavs at the same time. Crowder's the type of player the Cavs could really use, and I don't see Irving being able to dismantle whomever the Cavs use to guard him in a fashion that would give the Celtics a H2H advantage.
   1872. tshipman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:21 AM (#5519138)
hot as lava take:

I think this is a bad trade for both teams.

It makes the Cavs worse against the Warriors, which is the only metric that should matter to them. If your crunch time line-up is LeBron, Tristan Thompson, Love, JR and Kyrie, how much of an upgrade are Isaiah and Crowder? Who do they play in place of? Any increase in defense from Crowder is given away by Isaiah. Any increase in offense is given away by Crowder.

It also makes the Celtics worse in the regular season. They lose their primary defender on LeBron and make it harder on themselves to have home court in the regular season. Also, how the hell were they not willing to give up this package for Jimmy Butler--a better player and a better fit?

I will note that getting the Brooklyn pick was an absolute coup, but irrelevant mostly to Cleveland's contention window.
   1873. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:34 AM (#5519139)
It makes the Cavs worse against the Warriors, which is the only metric that should matter to them. If your crunch time line-up is LeBron, Tristan Thompson, Love, JR and Kyrie, how much of an upgrade are Isaiah and Crowder? Who do they play in place of? Any increase in defense from Crowder is given away by Isaiah. Any increase in offense is given away by Crowder.

In your opinion, is Crowder someone who can be used to guard Durant without getting torched? I feel that if all Crowder does is replace Richard Jefferson's minutes, he'll provide a significant upgrade.

I will note that getting the Brooklyn pick was an absolute coup, but irrelevant mostly to Cleveland's contention window.

That pick is going to look pretty good during the season if the Cavaliers want to make an upgrade during the season.

Was I wrong to think that that Crowder and Bradley were the best Celtics during the ECF?
   1874. tshipman Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:38 AM (#5519140)
In your opinion, is Crowder someone who can be used to guard Durant without getting torched? I feel that if all Crowder does is replace Richard Jefferson's minutes, he'll provide a significant upgrade.


It's hard to say with certainty, since Durant hasn't played Boston a ton (just two games over the last 3 years), but Durant has averaged 26/8.5/8 in those two games for a combined +/- of +92.

So the available evidence doesn't give great confidence, let's say that.

That pick is going to look pretty good during the season if the Cavaliers want to make an upgrade during the season.


This is a fair point.
   1875. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 23, 2017 at 03:19 AM (#5519160)
Spank Horton @SpankHorton
Cleveland got another big defender to try and guard Durant that's a plus
Andre Iguodala ✔ @andre
Who?
   1876. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:23 AM (#5519174)
The only thing I can think of is that IT's health for this season is going to be iffy and the Celtics had to sweeten the pot to get the Cavs to take on the risk he doesn't make it through the season.
   1877. sardonic Posted: August 23, 2017 at 08:54 AM (#5519183)
I wonder what the Cavs could get for the Brooklyn pick. If their crunch time lineup is now Isaiah Thomas-JR Smith-Jae Crowder-Lebron-Love or something along those lines, what SHOULD they look for? If OKC is somehow not competitive could they pry Paul George away? Based on our rankings the next best wing not on a contender is CJ McCollum. Shumpert, Frye, filler for CJ works in the trade machine. If they want to go bigger they can always try to get DeMarcus Cousins or Marc Gasol depending on how those situations play out.

Isaiah Thomas-JR Smith-Jae Crowder-Lebron-Kevin Love
Isaiah Thomas-CJ McCollum-Jae Crowder-Lebron-Kevin Love
Isaiah Thomas-Jae Crowder-Lebron-Kevin Love-Marc Gasol

Hmmm
   1878. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: August 23, 2017 at 09:32 AM (#5519204)
The only thing I can think of is that IT's health for this season is going to be iffy and the Celtics had to sweeten the pot to get the Cavs to take on the risk he doesn't make it through the season.

I feel like it's a combination of:

1. Not wanting IT long term
2. Not really wanting him to walk for nothing
3. Asset consolidation

At some point you have to really consolidate assets into a rotation, especially when you have young guys that need to play. Right now they really wouldn't have had enough minutes to go around for Crowder, Tatum, Hayward, and Brown. That wasn't really going to be fixed over the next couple of years, and was going to become more of a problem over time.

As for Crowder's offense which tship called out, I don't see how it's a problem, really. I mean he's not Durant, but he averaged ~16 pts/36min over the last 2 years, with a good TS% (his TS% was even solid in 15-16 when he didn't shoot well from 3).

sardonic, I think with the pick a big question is their sense on if LeBron returns. I'd be loath to sell it cheap for this year if they're thinking he doesn't return. Otherwise, I think they either need a top interior defender/rebounder or a wing. McCollum is good but I wouldn't want to pair him with Thomas for defensive reasons.
   1879. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5519238)
That pick is going to look pretty good during the season if the Cavaliers want to make an upgrade during the season.

Agreed. Above all else, I'd say that the Cavs just got a lot more ammunition to improve their roster. Most teams are pretty happy with their point guard situation, but everyone values Brooklyn's 2018 pick and to a lesser extent Jae Crowder. The combination of that pick, Crowder, and Frye's expiring contract gets you another All-Star big man or wing if that's what you want, and depending on the trade target you might not even need to include Crowder.
   1880. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5519268)
sardonic, I think with the pick a big question is their sense on if LeBron returns. I'd be loath to sell it cheap for this year if they're thinking he doesn't return. Otherwise, I think they either need a top interior defender/rebounder or a wing. McCollum is good but I wouldn't want to pair him with Thomas for defensive reasons.


If I'm Dan Gilbert, and LBJ asks me to flip the pick into an immediate upgrade, I say, "sure, conditioned on you signing a 1 (or 2, if you're feeling frisky) extension." That seems like an obvious win-win.
   1881. JJ1986 Posted: August 23, 2017 at 10:52 AM (#5519276)
As Cleveland, I wouldn't trade the pick now on the off chance that you can get Paul George for it at the deadline (if OKC struggles and Brooklyn is as terrible as they might be). I would try to trade Kevin Love right away, although I'm not sure what you can get for him. I was messing around in the trade machine with a 3-team deal where he goes to Phoenix and the Cavs get Jared Dudley and Wesley Matthews (from Dallas).
   1882. JC in DC Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:24 AM (#5519311)
If I'm Dan Gilbert, and LBJ asks me to flip the pick into an immediate upgrade, I say, "sure, conditioned on you signing a 1 (or 2, if you're feeling frisky) extension." That seems like an obvious win-win.


No way I see this happening in any way at all. I doubt these guys trust each other enough for this to work, and I'm guessing LBJ's gone from Cleveland anyway. One more year, one more title run, and then he's out to build a team with some aging buddies. He doesn't owe Gilbert anything, Gilbert doesn't seem to think he owes LBJ anything. To be honest, I'm not even sure Gilbert cares if they win again. He seems as, or more interested, in profiting at this point.
   1883. JC in DC Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:25 AM (#5519312)
They aren't trading the pick. That pick is for the cheaper, younger, post-LBJ Cavs (IMHO, and following on my last post).
   1884. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:28 AM (#5519316)
Irving's ability to get to the rim is something the Celtics didn't have last season.

Irving is often talked about as the most dangerous isolation player in the league, but Thomas can do plenty of damage off the dribble, too. He scored 1.12 points per possession on 2.3 isolation plays per game last year (Irving scored 1.12 points per on 6.8 plays per), and led the league in drives per game at 12.7, shooting 51.2 percent on those plays.


He's very good at convincing the officials to blow the whistle.

Is that supposed to be a negative?

I mean, yeah, Irving is better at that, but with him you take the good with the bad. I think IT4 is a better decision maker, and probably does a better job slotting in next to LBJ. Remember, Irving led the Cavs in FGA and per36 IT4 only took a smidge more FGA (20.6 vs 20.2). Last year, IT4 was the better offensive player *and* was more efficient as the sole focus of the C's offense; Irving had to benefit playing next to LeBron. I think it's fair to question whether IT4 will still be better this upcoming season, but absolutely no reason to think Irving will get more efficient w/out LeBron.

For me, defense at the moment is a wash; Irving theoretically has more defensive potential and might benefit from Stevens' coaching but it's not like we should expect Irving to ever be a plus there. I think IT4 has better defensive instincts, but the size is something he just can't overcome and will be a liability against GS (just like Kryie). I think Crowder taking Jefferson/Smith/Shumpert minutes in the crunch is a pretty significant upgrade also, but like others here, I'm waiting to see if the Cavs cash in the pick this year as that could be a real difference maker (Cavs also get a small trade exception, which could be used for a small role piece if needed).

As it's impossible to measure/quantify, I don't know how much to really question this from a "chemistry" standpoint. The C's completely turned over their roster (only 4 players come back), so it's not like Kyrie is disrupting an already set mix, but it is going to take time for the C's to gel and figure out their best offense/defense. And if any of the stories about Kyrie in Cleve are true, it's likely that the Cavs may benefit slightly from a better environment (not that it would have appeared to have had any impact on their final results last season).
   1885. jmurph Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:29 AM (#5519319)
I can't decide if I'm disappointed in you guys or grateful that you all haven't made a lot of fun of me for having Kyrie on the Celtics. I've been railing against him here for years!

They aren't trading the pick. That pick is for the cheaper, younger, post-LBJ Cavs (IMHO, and following on my last post).

Yeah I think this is as good as they could have possibly done on that front. They're probably at least as good this year as they would have been with Kyrie (I think better, but that will depend on Isaiah's fit/health), and they now have some insurance for if/when LeBron walks. They get to take a look at Isaiah for a year to see if they want to build around him going forward or let him walk, and they'll still have Love and Crowder as trade assets. Great job by them.
   1886. jmurph Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:32 AM (#5519325)
The C's completely turned over their roster (only 4 players come back), so it's not like Kyrie is disrupting an already set mix, but it is going to take time for the C's to gel and figure out their best offense/defense.

Not only that, they're absolutely swimming with 1st year players- Tatum, Nader, Ojeleye, Yabusele, and Theis will all be on the roster, and obviously they'll have the 2nd year Brown getting a lot of minutes.
   1887. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:39 AM (#5519339)

No way I see this happening in any way at all. I doubt these guys trust each other enough for this to work, and I'm guessing LBJ's gone from Cleveland anyway. One more year, one more title run, and then he's out to build a team with some aging buddies. He doesn't owe Gilbert anything, Gilbert doesn't seem to think he owes LBJ anything. To be honest, I'm not even sure Gilbert cares if they win again. He seems as, or more interested, in profiting at this point


No trust is needed. You get LeBron to handshake agree to extend if the trade is made. Then you negotiate the trade. Then the extension is executed by him simultaneously with calling in the trade to the league office. Everyone gets bound at the same time.

FWIW, I have second hand experience with this sort of thing so can assure you that the technical issue of getting everyone bound simultaneously is a piece of cake. If LeBron wants to 'trade' certainty that he's staying in CLE for an upgrade to the team, the agents and lawyers will be able to make it happen.
   1888. jmurph Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5519354)
My guess is JC is exactly right about the LeBron/Gilbert thing: it's run its course. LeBron is pretty damn media savvy and has spent exactly zero seconds this summer convincing anyone he has any interest in being there after this season. And obviously that could change- maybe Wade and Carmelo end up there and that's the easiest path forward, or maybe something else happens to change the direction. But as of now I'd be pretty intent on holding onto that pick if I were Cleveland.
   1889. aberg Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:59 AM (#5519371)
Most of the key points have been covered well already. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the Brooklyn pick's value has degenerated a big over the offseason. They added Russell, Crabbe, Carroll, and Mozgov this offseason, who are all legitimate NBA players. They lost Lopez, but they will also presumably get more than a handful of games from Lin. They can spend more time next year playing the decent young guys (Hollis-Jefferson, Levert, Whitehead) who they sorted out from the chaff rather than just testing every available guy on a 10-day. Pelton noted that the pick's average position, per RPM projections, would be 5th in next year's draft. That's a very useful chip in what looks like a deep draft, but it's not quite what it looked like it might be as recently as a few months ago.
   1890. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: August 23, 2017 at 11:59 AM (#5519373)
My guess is JC is exactly right about the LeBron/Gilbert thing: it's run its course. LeBron is pretty damn media savvy and has spent exactly zero seconds this summer convincing anyone he has any interest in being there after this season. And obviously that could change- maybe Wade and Carmelo end up there and that's the easiest path forward, or maybe something else happens to change the direction. But as of now I'd be pretty intent on holding onto that pick if I were Cleveland.

Agreed. I think you can move it for someone who has isn't going to be a FA next year, but I'd be loath to deal it for George halfway into the season if he magically became available.
   1891. jmurph Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:03 PM (#5519381)
The other point on the pick I'd make is that I don't think Ainge ever had any plans of keeping all 3 of those picks. Which isn't to say he traded the right one, or used the first two correctly- I don't think we know either of those things yet. I'm moderately surprised two of them will end up being on the roster.

Woj suggested last night on twitter that there was debate over including the 18 pick or Tatum, and Boston fought to keep Tatum. So that will be another interesting one to follow, to see if it was the right call.
   1892. PJ Martinez Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:04 PM (#5519382)
I think it's fair to question whether IT4 will still be better this upcoming season, but absolutely no reason to think Irving will get more efficient w/out LeBron.

I think "absolutely no reason" is probably too strong. I saw a point made elsewhere that might be an empty generalization or might be interesting, I can't decide: LeBron, somebody somewhere said, has never made a superstar teammate better. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving -- did any of those guys play better with LeBron than they played without him?

That's an honest question -- I'm really not sure of the answer. I'm also not sure whether the answer means a great deal either way. But I'm curious what others think.

P.S. I continue to dislike this trade because of the Brooklyn pick.
   1893. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:14 PM (#5519394)
I think "absolutely no reason" is probably too strong. I saw a point made elsewhere that might be an empty generalization or might be interesting, I can't decide: LeBron, somebody somewhere said, has never made a superstar teammate better. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving -- did any of those guys play better with LeBron than they played without him?

I purposely didn't say "better" - I don't see how Irving can be more efficient, and his on/off numbers in Cleveland w/LeBron would support that theory. Maybe he can gobble up more possessions and stay close to the same efficiency, which could mean he's better (also, if his defense improves at all, that's another way he could be better in Boston).
   1894. theboyqueen Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:17 PM (#5519400)
LeBron, somebody somewhere said, has never made a superstar teammate better. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving -- did any of those guys play better with LeBron than they played without him?


Irving would be the first real test of this...the others seem well explained by aging curves (though modest improvement by Kyrie would also be well explained by his aging curve).

Play this game with anybody and I'm not sure what you get. Did Jordan make Pippen "better"? How would we ever know?

   1895. aberg Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:18 PM (#5519402)
I had a couple of other thoughts that have been expressed here to varying degrees-

-I also think that this trade makes it more likely that the Cavs trade Love. Someone noted that the IT-JR-Lebron-Love-Thompson lineup is even worse against GS than the one they used with Kyrie in it this year. I think part of the value in the trade is that they can match up better with Crowder in Love's spot. That makes them long, stretchy, and mobile in a way they weren't last year. Crowder isn't the rebounder that Love is, nor the creative offensive player, but he probably fits better in this lineup, especially since Lebron is best used as PF by another name. Whether they trade him or not, Love will not play crunch time against GS's death lineup.

-I'm more sympathetic to Boston's end of the trade. Crowder had tremendously positive trade value, but Boston was also in a position where they HAD to find a way to see if Brown and/or Tatum can become stars. It would be hard to play either of them enough with Hayward and Crowder in the lineup, let alone both of them. Does that make them better this year? Probably not, but I think the goal is to get one or both of them to maximize their potential over 3-4 years rather than just this year.

-Kyrie vs. IT is a reasonable debate if you're just going by last year, but Kyrie has been a better player for pretty much every other year, plus he's significantly younger. Flat Earth stuff aside, I don't think there's any reason you would prefer to have IT on your team. Is the upgrade as big as the value of Crowder and that pick? If you adjust the value of the pick downward as BKN has improved and feel like you have younger alternatives to Crowder who you want to get into the lineup, that might make it closer. Add in their respective contract situations and I don't think Boston is nuts.

I think "absolutely no reason" is probably too strong. I saw a point made elsewhere that might be an empty generalization or might be interesting, I can't decide: LeBron, somebody somewhere said, has never made a superstar teammate better. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving -- did any of those guys play better with LeBron than they played without him?

That's an honest question -- I'm really not sure of the answer. I'm also not sure whether the answer means a great deal either way. But I'm curious what others think.


Bosh and Irving have both had their best seasons with Lebron. Wade and Love put up much better stats when they were the best player on inferior teams, but that's kind of the point of having an all-time teammate, isn't it? Garden variety all-stars don't put up the same stats, but they have a chance to win rings, and Wade and Love have never NOT been to the Finals with Lebron as a teammate in 7 combined seasons. We could also go through a laundry list of supporting players who looked much better with Lebron than without (Pavlovic, Varejao, Chalmers, Cole, J Jones, J Anthony, old Battier, old Jefferson, JR Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov...)
   1896. PJ Martinez Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:44 PM (#5519432)
Irving would be the first real test of this...the others seem well explained by aging curves

Kevin Love was 26 in his first season with Cleveland. I'm not going to rush to say his decline in performance is LeBron's fault, at all, but normally you'd expect players to have their best years around age 27, and that did not happen.

Bosh and Irving have both had their best seasons with Lebron

On the Bosh front, and again this is an honest question: based on what? The numbers I see all suggest that his best years were in Toronto. (As for Irving: yes, it's true that he's been better the last few years than he was in his teens and the first couple years of his twenties, though he hasn't made enormous strides, it seems.)

I agree with you about the supporting players, but that was the point of whoever it was who was making this claim -- that supporting players do better with LeBron but stars do not. Maybe it's just a matter of usage, maybe it's a coincidence or an over-generalization... I was just struck by it because it doesn't seem immediately false, and I wonder if there's anything to it. (Maybe there isn't!)
   1897. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: August 23, 2017 at 12:46 PM (#5519436)
My guess is JC is exactly right about the LeBron/Gilbert thing: it's run its course. LeBron is pretty damn media savvy and has spent exactly zero seconds this summer convincing anyone he has any interest in being there after this season. And obviously that could change- maybe Wade and Carmelo end up there and that's the easiest path forward, or maybe something else happens to change the direction. But as of now I'd be pretty intent on holding onto that pick if I were Cleveland.


I strongly disagree. I think LBJ is much smarter than you guys give him credit for. He's not going to make a decision because a relationship has "run its course". He's going to keep his options open but not committing to any path and then make a decision that's in his best interest. Whether that's moving to LA or staying in CLE or pretty much any other option is on the table. LBJ is far too savvy to be motivated by petty stuff.
   1898. jmurph Posted: August 23, 2017 at 01:04 PM (#5519453)
LBJ is far too savvy to be motivated by petty stuff.

I wouldn't classify having no confidence in Gilbert running an effective organization as petty stuff.
   1899. cmd600 Posted: August 23, 2017 at 01:13 PM (#5519462)
having no confidence in Gilbert running an effective organization as petty stuff



Was there reason to have confidence in Gilbert when he returned a couple years ago? Lebron came to Cleveland because they looked like the best chance to win a ring alongside two younger all-stars. Regardless of whatever Gilbert does, he'll stay if the Cavs are still the best chance for him to win a ring, short of taking a near-minimum contract. He's not going to make a guarantee to another player or sign a longer deal because he wants to hold Gilbert's feet to the fire, and he certainly may seek greener pastures, but he's going to go somewhere solely for the rings, especially as we seem to still be moving toward, and not away, from the idea that the number of rings is the primary factor in determining's one's legacy.
   1900. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: August 23, 2017 at 02:01 PM (#5519506)
I wouldn't classify having no confidence in Gilbert running an effective organization as petty stuff.


You're confusing your personal animosity for Gilbert with LeBron's thought process as to which team gives him the best chance of building his legacy. It's some mix of championships and market, with things like 'ownership' relevant but generally not material.
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