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Wednesday, June 28, 2017

OT-NBA off season thread


I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none that bothered to submit a monthly thread for nearly 4 months as to avoid detracting from what this site is really about: ... white privilege

RollingWave Posted: June 28, 2017 at 07:45 AM | 2408 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off topic

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   2301. Booey Posted: September 08, 2017 at 11:27 AM (#5528432)
Booey, I think Shooty is explicitly saying within the salary cap environment. So they couldn't all sign for the Heat or whoever right out of college if salary rules/cap restrictions are still in place.


I understand that, but teams like the Heat are going to free up cap space whenever they can to sign the top picks, just like they do in free agency. There's a reason a lot of teams don't bother doing that. Having max cap space only matters if max caliber free agents - or draft picks, in this scenario - are actually willing to play for you. These types of players will always have enough suitors that they don't have to settle for a situation that isn't 100% to their liking.

Edit: And I get the argument that it's immoral to make people play where they don't want to, etc. If the league decided to focus on the moral aspect of it rather than overall competitive balance, fine. But if they choose to do that it would make being a fan of certain teams completely pointless. Hell, it would make having teams in certain cities completely pointless. If they can live with a major drop in interest and attendance from half their leagues fan bases in an attempt to be more fair to the players, well, that's their call, I guess.
   2302. TFTIO, for one, is sick and tired of winning Posted: September 08, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5528456)
Small market or not, the Spurs still play in a warm weather city in a state with no state income taxes. I doubt they'd be anywhere near the bottom of the desirability totem pole, even without the added attraction of playing with Pop.

As a sort-of Barneys fan, I do think the league should look into tax harmonization for salaries.
   2303. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: September 08, 2017 at 11:40 AM (#5528460)
They absolutely should.
   2304. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 08, 2017 at 11:42 AM (#5528464)
I guess I can't get on board with the idea of forcing people to play in a place they don't want to because it's convenient for someone else. I also think the fears about "small markets" are overblown. Karl Malone and John Stockton were happy enough in SLC. SLC isn't going to be attractive for every prospect but it will be for the right* ones. *the right ones being the ones who would be happy enough committing to a city like SLC long term.
   2305. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 08, 2017 at 11:43 AM (#5528467)
As a sort-of Barneys fan, I do think the league should look into tax harmonization for salaries.

I think so, too, but a lot of "big market" teams are in high income tax states so good luck getting it past Dan Gilbert...
   2306. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 08, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5528483)
So Markkanen has been surprisingly really, really good* in EuroBasket. Even if it turns out that he is good, sounds like it's not like the Bulls really knew what they were doing with picking him($):

Although Markkanen has a long history of success at the FIBA youth level, Eurobasket has been his senior national team coming-out party. He opened the eyes of NBA scouts and even members of the Chicago Bulls coaching staff, who weren't quite sure the caliber of player they were getting when they selected Markkanen No. 7 overall after acquiring the pick in the Butler deal.

...

Chicago, which didn't work out Markkanen during the pre-draft process,


*Markkanen averaged 31.9 points and 8.7 rebounds per 40 minutes on 57.4 percent from 2 and 50.0 from 3 in five groups stage games
   2307. Booey Posted: September 08, 2017 at 12:00 PM (#5528510)
I guess I can't get on board with the idea of forcing people to play in a place they don't want to because it's convenient for someone else.


See my edit in 2301. I understand the moral dilemma, and don't necessarily disagree with it. If the NBA chooses to do it that way on moral grounds, well, kudos to them. But I'm not going to follow a league with a product I'm no longer interested in just because I admire their morality. I'd personally stop following the league altogether and I know a bunch of other people who would too, but they'd probably get enough new fans in the big cities this would help to offset that. So it's their call if they think increased attendance in big cities vs decreased attendance in smaller cities is worth it.

I also think the fears about "small markets" are overblown. Karl Malone and John Stockton were happy enough in SLC. SLC isn't going to be attractive for every prospect but it will be for the right* ones. *the right ones being the ones who would be happy enough committing to a city like SLC long term.

Yes, but that was 20-30 years ago in an era when players stuck with their original franchises longer. Look at the stars of the Dream Team era; most of them played 10+ seasons with the team that drafted/developed them - Stockton, Malone, Jordan, Ewing, Olajuwon, Magic, Bird, Pippen, Robinson, Miller, Isiah, Drexler, Payton, etc. Barkey and Shaq were some of the few that didn't. The guys that debuted in the late 90's mostly followed this trend too; Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, KG, Pierce, etc. But from the guys that debuted in the last 15 years, Wade seems to be a bit of an anomaly; how many others are going to hit 10 straight years with their original teams (and really most the guys on the earlier lists played a lot more than 10)? LeBron didn't. Paul, Harden, Durant, George, Hayward, Melo, Butler, Irving, etc. Is Westbrook going to hit 10+ with the Thunder? Is Davis with the Pellies? I wouldn't count on it.

Players don't stick around like they used to. The 90's were awesome for Jazz fans, but they're long gone and they're not coming back any time soon. You mentioned finding the "right" types of players. Sure, but the "right" types of players - the ones willing to stick around long term - might be 10% of the stars for some teams and 90% of them for others. It's not a small thing.
   2308. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 08, 2017 at 12:05 PM (#5528512)
So I am OK with tweaking the draft. And I like the lottery tax idea AND the idea for harmonizing for tax status (though that would be tricky I imagine). But the one thing people seem to forget is the draft is really popular.

Every year before the draft there is a flood of interest in the NBA. Fans get excited and read about possible draft choices. Run through scenarios. and all that good stuff. All of it is free advertising for the NBA and specifically for the worst teams (who need it). Free agency doesn't attract anywhere near the same amount of attention, because it is so non-transparent and honestly less interesting.

Where will <insert mid-level free agent> end up? Meh.

The league won't get rid of the draft, because they would be hurting their own marketing. Plus it helps teams that need it, of course, and in the long term competitive balance is something thought to be important.
   2309. jmurph Posted: September 08, 2017 at 12:07 PM (#5528515)
Oh yeah I fully agree the draft isn't going anywhere, in any american sport.
   2310. Booey Posted: September 08, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5528516)
But we've talked about all this before. I'll stop. ;-)
   2311. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: September 08, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5528547)
That, plus it really is kind of a rip off to paying fans that attend these games. Die hard fans understand the big picture and are generally fine with tanking for the chance at a better future, and they should know not to buy tickets to late season games after their team is out of the playoff picture if they want honest competition. But casual fans that just want to take their families (think of the children!!!!) out for a night of entertainment a couple times a year have the right to feel a little gypped, IMO.

If rampant tanking continues, even casual fans might catch on, and late season attendance could suffer. $eem$ pretty obviou$ why the league might care about that, doe$n't it?

What rampant, late-season tanking are you talking about? To the extent tanking exists, it's done almost entirely at the roster construction level, either before the season or at the trade deadline. The players on the court have a personal incentive to play well, and few healthy players are happy to sit out for some minor potential benefit to the team's long-term strategic goals. 2011-12 Warriors situations are exceedingly rare and unlikely to be affected by any league-wide rule change.

In terms of hurting the quality of play, the schedule still seems to be a much larger issue than tanking. Very good teams are just about as likely to rest their best players down the stretch as very bad teams, simply because the NBA schedule is a grind. Even when everyone plays, a compressed schedule makes for a lesser product on the court. The league has been making incremental scheduling improvements in recent years, most significantly by eliminating 4-in-5s, but I think knocking the regular season down to 72 games would do a lot more in terms of maintaining the value of every ticket than flattening lottery odds or something to that effect.
   2312. Booey Posted: September 08, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5528549)
Very good teams are just about as likely to rest their best players down the stretch as very bad teams, simply because the NBA schedule is a grind


Good teams don't shut down their players at the end of the season with injuries they could have come back from.
   2313. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 08, 2017 at 03:49 PM (#5528779)
The Nets are for sale, if any of you are interested.
   2314. jmurph Posted: September 08, 2017 at 04:17 PM (#5528818)
The Nets are for sale, if any of you are interested.

I'd certainly like to take a look at the link on Zillow, at the very least. Maybe even go to the open house, if I'm available.
   2315. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 08, 2017 at 05:27 PM (#5528874)
Dean Oliver‏ @DeanO_Lytics

Some teams know this, but tanking in the NBA doesn't actually work on average. It takes LONGER to be good by tanking than by building.
12:05 PM - 8 Sep 2017

Daryl Morey‏ @dmorey

Empirically correct but only because of confounding factor that poorly run teams get the high picks. For well-run teams it is very effective
12:16 PM - 8 Sep 2017
   2316. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 08, 2017 at 05:48 PM (#5528884)
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a lottery tax. A bit like the luxury tax, but instead a "your team sucks, stop it" tax. That way you have an incentive to tank (good draft picks) and a countervailing incentive to not tank ($$$).

Bad teams in flyover country still have a way to get better, but there is at least a direct cost associated with tanking. You can even escalate it if you are bad multiple years in a row - a "No kidding stop sucking" tax.
   2317. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 08, 2017 at 06:45 PM (#5528903)
“I truly believe definitely Ben is going to be the future of this league coming down the road,” the big man said Thursday. “He’s been great.”

“The stuff I’ve seen him do just training, it almost seems like it’s not fair, man,” said Johnson. “You get a guard to switch on him, you get a big to switch on him, and he’s just an unbelievable athlete, unbelievable scorer, and an unbelievable passer. He can do it all.”

“You can tell guys are hungry,” he said Thursday. “You can hear the buzz around the city, people are excited about our team. For guys to come in early and get work in, you can see the focus.”

link
   2318. aberg Posted: September 08, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5528908)
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a lottery tax. A bit like the luxury tax, but instead a "your team sucks, stop it" tax. That way you have an incentive to tank (good draft picks) and a countervailing incentive to not tank ($$$).

Bad teams in flyover country still have a way to get better, but there is at least a direct cost associated with tanking. You can even escalate it if you are bad multiple years in a row - a "No kidding stop sucking" tax.


Wouldn't this just be increasing the salaries in rookie contracts, which would probably be more fair anyway?

“I truly believe definitely Ben is going to be the future of this league coming down the road,” the big man said Thursday. “He’s been great.”


So which league is coming down the road? Is that big 3?
   2319. tshipman Posted: September 08, 2017 at 07:21 PM (#5528910)
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of a lottery tax. A bit like the luxury tax, but instead a "your team sucks, stop it" tax. That way you have an incentive to tank (good draft picks) and a countervailing incentive to not tank ($$$).

Bad teams in flyover country still have a way to get better, but there is at least a direct cost associated with tanking. You can even escalate it if you are bad multiple years in a row - a "No kidding stop sucking" tax.



This is a super interesting idea. My prior is that most of pro-sports is basically amateur hour. Most teams don't invest in management, development or operations.

I do think there are not enough disincentives to losing. Maybe by putting in a repeater tax, you would actually encourage teams to care about how their teams are run.

Edit: of course, it would never happen because it's not welfare for rich people. Sports ownership is the least meritocratic segment in the world.
   2320. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: September 09, 2017 at 03:34 AM (#5528986)
increasing the salaries in rookie contracts
Finally, a #hoopidea I can get behind.
   2321. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 09, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5529027)
Derek Bodner ✔ @DerekBodnerNBA
Embiid's size and athleticism are obvious. But his defensive awareness is off the charts. http://bit.ly/2gPiTIa pic.twitter.com/xy0i5kOKmw
   2322. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 09, 2017 at 09:08 PM (#5529126)
Interesting - Potential Ownership Change Looms For Grizzlies

In response to the national article published at The Ringer, Chris Herrington of the Memphis Commercial Appeal clarified some aspects of the agreement. Per Herrington, who wrote one of the original articles that O’Shaugnessy cited, five years after the original purchase (and every three years there after), either Steve Kaplan or Daniel Straus – who each own 14.22% – will have the option to bid for Pera’s shares at a rate that they themselves choose.

At that point, the ball will fall into Pera’s court, who will then elect to either sell his stake at that price or buy the offering party’s stake at that same rate. Pera, therefore, can not trigger the event but his hands aren’t exactly tied either. The onus is on either Kaplan or Straus, if they so dare, to find a pricepoint that will dissuade Pera from simply matching and taking over their own shares.
   2323. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: September 10, 2017 at 02:25 AM (#5529224)
Danny Z.‏ @MormonGekko

Rozier on if he gets worried when he hears trade rumors: "haha nahhh Danny won't trade me"
   2324. jmurph Posted: September 11, 2017 at 12:27 PM (#5529667)
STIGGLES: why aren't you posting about the talk radio report that Embiid is going to hold out unless he gets a max extension? That seems like it would be more fun to discuss. (I assume this report is crazy.)
   2325. Sleepless in Munich Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5529695)
teams like the Heat

I'm late to this discussion, but I want to note that the while the Heat are the example for a team that would get all the stars in the NBA, the Marlins are currently discussed because they might not be able to afford even a below-average payroll. So market (size) isn't everything.
   2326. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:16 PM (#5529715)
If Embiid holds out he can't get hurt. That's called being crazy like a fox!

No thoughts on Jason Lloyd's report that IT has arthritis and cartilage loss in his damaged hip in addition to the labrum tear? Man, for IT to accomplish what he has at his size and with a bum hip, all I can say is that guy is a warrior (small w). It's sad to think he may never make more in a year than Miles ####### Plumlee. This universe is unfair.
   2327. RJ in TO Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:32 PM (#5529729)
STIGGLES: why aren't you posting about the talk radio report that Embiid is going to hold out unless he gets a max extension? That seems like it would be more fun to discuss. (I assume this report is crazy.)
I have no idea as to the truth of the report but, given Embiid's health record, it would be a smart thing for him to do whatever he can to nail down that next contract as soon as possible.
   2328. Thok Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5529733)
A simple way to prevent future Warriors-style tanking is simply to limit what protections can be put on a pick; top 1/2/3 and lottery protections are fine, but it's unclear that top 5 or top 10 protections for a pick are necessary tools in building a typical NBA trade.
   2329. Rally Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:45 PM (#5529742)
I'm late to this discussion, but I want to note that the while the Heat are the example for a team that would get all the stars in the NBA, the Marlins are currently discussed because they might not be able to afford even a below-average payroll. So market (size) isn't everything.


Part of it is the salary cap - not only can't the big market teams spend any more than the small market teams, there can be no cheap NBA teams since the minimum payroll is 90% of the cap. The other part is that Miami is a more desirable place to be, especially relative to the rest of the country, in winter as compared to summer.
   2330. Booey Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:49 PM (#5529745)
It's sad to think he may never make more in a year than Miles ####### Plumlee. This universe is unfair.


I still think there's a decent chance some team will be willing to gamble on him with a big contract in the hopes he can regain past form. We've seen it happen before.
   2331. Booey Posted: September 11, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5529751)
So market (size) isn't everything.


Size, no. Market desirability is huge, IMO, but several other considerations factor into that beyond just size, of course (see my previous post about the Spurs, for example).
   2332. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 11, 2017 at 02:31 PM (#5529772)
I still think there's a decent chance some team will be willing to gamble on him with a big contract in the hopes he can regain past form. We've seen it happen before.

He's going to have to play well at some point this year for that, though. Otherwise he's a 5'7" guard with a bum hip going into his age 31 season in an environment with few teams that have cap space. It's going to be very tough for him. I will root for him up until the finals.

I wonder if the Cavs will lean on Derek Rose. Is it crazy for them to just play LeBron as the 1, Magic-style? Asking Rose to play off ball just seems like it will be a disaster. What's the point of playing a guy who can't shoot and can't defend off the ball?
   2333. TFTIO, for one, is sick and tired of winning Posted: September 11, 2017 at 02:42 PM (#5529786)
What's the point of playing Rose, full stop?
   2334. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 11, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5529802)
If Embiid holds out he can't get hurt. That's called being crazy like a fox!
obviously, you've never been bowling.

STIGGLES: why aren't you posting about the talk radio report that Embiid is going to hold out unless he gets a max extension? That seems like it would be more fun to discuss. (I assume this report is crazy.)
i haven't heard much about it and i don't have an opinion yet.


from pelton:
The least experienced top three to make the playoffs belongs to the 1984-85 Houston Rockets, who, like Philadelphia, had drafted Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon No. 1 overall in consecutive years. They were joined by second-year forward Rodney McCray to form a youthful top three (161 career games entering the season) that led Houston to a 48-34 record. Of course, in those days, rookies were more experienced and tended to contribute more quickly than they do now. Olajuwon was an All-Star as a rookie, as Sampson had been the year before, and that's an unrealistic expectation for Fultz and Simmons so early in their careers.

   2335. aberg Posted: September 11, 2017 at 03:02 PM (#5529803)
I wonder if the Cavs will lean on Derek Rose. Is it crazy for them to just play LeBron as the 1, Magic-style? Asking Rose to play off ball just seems like it will be a disaster. What's the point of playing a guy who can't shoot and can't defend off the ball?


Lineup would be something like Lebron-JR-Crowder-Love-Thompson. That's a lot better than starting Rose. It might present some difficulty defending quick guards or a really good ball-movement offense full of shooters, because I don't see Lebron defending playmakers for 24 seconds over and over.

Part of it is the salary cap - not only can't the big market teams spend any more than the small market teams, there can be no cheap NBA teams since the minimum payroll is 90% of the cap. The other part is that Miami is a more desirable place to be, especially relative to the rest of the country, in winter as compared to summer.


Yes and no. The highest payroll teams go well into the salary cap and still spend about twice as much as the lowest salary teams, and that's before accounting for the tax penalties. On the other hand, some of the highest payrolls belong to Cleveland, Milwaukee, Portland, OKC, and New Orleans, which one would expect to be the teams most constrained by spending on players. I suspect that part of the difference from baseball might be the recent attention to revenue distribution as a result of the lockout. Fans are more aware of how much money there is and where it goes, so it's harder for a team to pull a Loria and cry foul when there's no way that it's true.
   2336. jmurph Posted: September 11, 2017 at 03:11 PM (#5529814)
Lineup would be something like Lebron-JR-Crowder-Love-Thompson. That's a lot better than starting Rose. It might present some difficulty defending quick guards or a really good ball-movement offense full of shooters, because I don't see Lebron defending playmakers for 24 seconds over and over.

I think this makes the most sense. Cleveland is going to be bad on defense anyway, just like they were last year- it's not like Kyrie or Isaiah was going to solve that. And obviously not Rose, either. Crowder helps to some degree but it looked like a team problem last year.
   2337. aberg Posted: September 11, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5529849)
I think this makes the most sense. Cleveland is going to be bad on defense anyway, just like they were last year- it's not like Kyrie or Isaiah was going to solve that. And obviously not Rose, either. Crowder helps to some degree but it looked like a team problem last year.


That's probably true. Thompson and Crowder are really good defenders. Smith is good when he is focused, which is more of the time than it once was. Lebron can be great when it matters and he's disruptive even when he's less engaged. The bench isn't great, but Shumpert, Jefferson, and Green are all long and can cause problems. IT/Kyrie was and is a problem at the point of attack, and running a PNR at Love creates vulnerability. It might be as simple as that- if you have to try to cover up for two problem defenders, you're never really going to be that good.
   2338. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: September 11, 2017 at 05:22 PM (#5529873)
Shams is claiming Tony Allen is headed to New Orleans on a one-year deal.

Not going to lie, I was kind of hoping the Celtics were going to use that empty 15th roster spot to keep him to a 2-team career. Guess I'm all in on Diaw now.
   2339. tshipman Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:43 PM (#5529989)
That's probably true. Thompson and Crowder are really good defenders. Smith is good when he is focused, which is more of the time than it once was. Lebron can be great when it matters and he's disruptive even when he's less engaged. The bench isn't great, but Shumpert, Jefferson, and Green are all long and can cause problems. IT/Kyrie was and is a problem at the point of attack, and running a PNR at Love creates vulnerability. It might be as simple as that- if you have to try to cover up for two problem defenders, you're never really going to be that good.


I mean, at least by on/off, which isn't everything, Love isn't the problem, and TT and Smith aren't the solutions. Thompson was worse than Love.

JR has had bad on/off numbers for the last two years.

The real arsonists are Korver, Kyrie/IT and the bench.

I think the problem is honestly the coaching staff. Zach Lowe made the observation that whenever the Cavs are in trouble, they go for more offense, not more defense, and I think that just points to the issues with the team. They always prioritize offense. When you run out lineups with Darren Williams and Kyle Korver, you're going to have a bad defense.
   2340. jmurph Posted: September 12, 2017 at 09:15 AM (#5530048)
I think the problem is honestly the coaching staff. Zach Lowe made the observation that whenever the Cavs are in trouble, they go for more offense, not more defense, and I think that just points to the issues with the team. They always prioritize offense. When you run out lineups with Darren Williams and Kyle Korver, you're going to have a bad defense.

Yeah agree (which also points to the front office). This is mostly about the Finals and, obviously, to be fair, it's difficult to defend against the Warriors. But it talks about their terrible transition defense, which people hand waved away during the regular season as a result of them just coasting or some such, but then turned out to be a very real thing.
   2341. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 12, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5530067)
NBArank is rolling out this week. it's only the top 100 this year, but the sixers already have 4 guys mentioned and one more is coming.

redick: 87
fultz: 86 (overrated)
simmons: 84 (disgustingly underrated)
covington: 55
embiid: TBD
   2342. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: September 12, 2017 at 10:37 AM (#5530087)
Last year they did Top 200 for NBA Rank, am I missing 101-200 this year? As a Pistons fan, I need to see where someone on the team is ranked.
   2343. Booey Posted: September 12, 2017 at 11:31 AM (#5530123)
As a Pistons fan, I need to see where someone on the team is ranked.


Avery Bradley #61!
Andre Drummond #53!
   2344. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:16 PM (#5530145)
Josh Childress signs with the Nuggets! Just a non-guaranteed invite, but still.
   2345. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:43 PM (#5530167)
Josh Childress signs with the Nuggets! Just a non-guaranteed invite, but still.
awesome. i loved that guy when he came out of stanford and i never thought he got enough credit for everything he brought to the table. he was basically jae crowder (except he also had a great FT rate and was an elite offensive rebounder) when he went on exile at age 24. if he had continued to develop as a defender, he might have gotten into unicorn territory at his peak.
   2346. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 12, 2017 at 03:40 PM (#5530286)
Shabazz Muhammad going back to Timberwolves

Free-agent guard Shabazz Muhammad has agreed in principle to a deal to return to the Minnesota Timberwolves, league sources told ESPN.

Muhammad, 24, has played his four NBA seasons with the Timberwolves, and keeping him promises to be a major boost for the Wolves bench.



I don't know how much it moves the needle, but still it doesn't hurt.
   2347. aberg Posted: September 12, 2017 at 03:52 PM (#5530302)
1. Weird that Woj and the ensuing reports referred to Bazz as a guard.

2. It's not that he's so great, but he's that much better than how those minutes would otherwise get distributed. Namely, his 15 minutes would probably either go to a D-League/washed up player or would be minutes 39+ for Wiggins and Butler.

3. It's probably as good as a long term deal, as long as he doesn't get hurt or antagonize someone. He probably ultimately picked the Wolves because it preserves his Bird rights, and there's no risk of them renouncing him to maximize cap space again next year (since they won't have cap space anyway).
   2348. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 12, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5530306)
Starbury is available.

2. It's not that he's so great, but he's that much better than how those minutes would otherwise get distributed. Namely, his 15 minutes would probably either go to a D-League/washed up player or would be minutes 39+ for Wiggins and Butler.

Come on now, Jimmy's playing 40/night no matter who else is on the roster.
   2349. JJ1986 Posted: September 12, 2017 at 08:47 PM (#5530452)
Do we have a final list for the player ranking we did for 2017-18? I'd like to compare it with the ESPN one.
   2350. Booey Posted: September 13, 2017 at 03:01 PM (#5530963)
Do we have a final list for the player ranking we did for 2017-18? I'd like to compare it with the ESPN one.


They did 31-50 today, and so far it's looking pretty close to our rankings.
   2351. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: September 13, 2017 at 03:05 PM (#5530973)
Should I pretend to be mad about Tobias Harris not being in the top 100? He was 60th in RPM wins, 44th in bb-ref win shares, and he's going into his year 25 season. This is all we got as Pistons fans.
   2352. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 13, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5530994)
Hey, new Piston Avery Bradley is 61!
   2353. Booey Posted: September 13, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5531011)
And Drummond is #53! That's TWO guys, Pistons fans!
   2354. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 13, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5531032)
They haven't done 30-1 yet, also. Maybe they've bumped Harris (or Boban!?) up into more elite company? (Ok, probably not.)
   2355. Booey Posted: September 13, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5531095)
Joe Ingles got a few votes for our top 50, so I was a little disappointed he didn't crack their top 100. Unless he's in the top 30...Hmmmm....
   2356. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 14, 2017 at 02:15 PM (#5531644)
Jackie MacMullan is on the latest Lowe Post and it is a fantastic listen. Lowe thinks the world of her and explicitly just wants her to tell stories, so she does, and I wish it were twice as long.
   2357. aberg Posted: September 14, 2017 at 05:45 PM (#5531943)
Jackie MacMullan is on the latest Lowe Post and it is a fantastic listen. Lowe thinks the world of her and explicitly just wants her to tell stories, so she does, and I wish it were twice as long.


There should be a whole podcast series that is just Larry Bird drinking stories. They are so good.

Hey, new Piston Avery Bradley is 61!


No wonder Boston traded him. Even with advances in modern sports medicine, that's way past his prime.
   2358. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 14, 2017 at 07:06 PM (#5531993)
Jackie MacMullan is on the latest Lowe Post and it is a fantastic listen.
Jackie MacMullan is who people think Bob Ryan is.
   2359. TFTIO, for one, is sick and tired of winning Posted: September 15, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5532290)
Jackie MacMullan is on the latest Lowe Post and it is a fantastic listen. Lowe thinks the world of her and explicitly just wants her to tell stories, so she does, and I wish it were twice as long.

Yeah, this was really, really good.
   2360. jmurph Posted: September 15, 2017 at 10:13 AM (#5532310)
Jackie MacMullan is who people think Bob Ryan is.

Oh that is not bad at all, well said. Ryan does have one thing in common with Jackie Mac, which is they both have ridiculous memories for details that happened decades ago.

And I fourth or fifth or whatever the recommendation on this podcast, it was a fun listen. It almost certainly helps if you're a Celtics fan but I don't think it was too over the top.
   2361. jmurph Posted: September 15, 2017 at 11:52 AM (#5532397)
Catching up a little on NBA Rank, the one that stands out for me in the top 30 is Porzingis at 22. That seems...ambitious. Butler at 11 seems a little low, but I somewhat get the idea that he needs to prove last year was his new level (or thereabouts).
   2362. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: September 15, 2017 at 12:59 PM (#5532435)
I've never cared for Jackie MacMullen, but if it's any consolation, I also don't like Bob Ryan.
   2363. Booey Posted: September 15, 2017 at 01:03 PM (#5532438)
Catching up a little on NBA Rank, the one that stands out for me in the top 30 is Porzingis at 22. That seems...ambitious. Butler at 11 seems a little low, but I somewhat get the idea that he needs to prove last year was his new level (or thereabouts).

I thought Paul George was surprisingly high too. I don't know what separates him from the other guys we had in the 20-ish range.

Other than these few exceptions though, it seems like their list matched up with ours pretty closely. Anyone able to track down our final consensus and post it for reference?
   2364. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 15, 2017 at 01:06 PM (#5532439)
I'm finally getting around to reading (listening, actually, during my commute) to Jack McCallum's Dream Team. I have to say, I like Larry Bird more than I used to from what I've heard so far. And I feel kind of sorry for Isaiah Thomas. He created his own problems but it must have really hurt to find out Daly and Magic hung him out to dry. Then I remember all the crap Knicks executive Isaiah Thomas got up to and I don't feels so sorry for him anymore. The Laettner chapter was interesting, too. It's funny that he really was a jackass at Duke, just as we all suspected, but it's nice that McCallum gave him a humanizing coda to end the chapter. Sounds like he just grew up, as people do. I think we often forget how young athletes are when their star is shining brightest. Not a lot on Mullin but I wasn't expecting much about him. He was kind of lucky to be on that team. Not super lucky, but you could have made a case for Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Drexler or Dominique to have that spot (though Drexler did eventually get it, of course). It was interesting that Daly had Mullin as one of the 6 players he felt he had to have, though.
   2365. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 15, 2017 at 01:07 PM (#5532441)
I think these top 100 lists are a little silly but the SI podcast about it cracked me up. Ben Golliver and Andrew Sharp get legit pissed off at each other.
   2366. smileyy Posted: September 15, 2017 at 01:40 PM (#5532464)
I imagine there's not much different in those last two guys off the bench for the Dream Team in terms of outcomes. Its kind of a choice of who you wanted to honor with a gold medal.
   2367. There are a lot of good people in alt-Shooty Posted: September 15, 2017 at 02:07 PM (#5532487)
I imagine there's not much different in those last two guys off the bench for the Dream Team in terms of outcomes. Its kind of a choice of who you wanted to honor with a gold medal.

Sure, especially in 92. We could have sent this team and still kicked ass:

Terry Porter PG
Dumars SG
Dominique SF
Dennis Rodman PF
Bill Laimbeer C

(Sorry for all the Pistons!)

Then you'd still have guys like Alvin Robertson, Derrick Coleman, Mitch Richmond, Buck Williams, Kevin Duckworth, Isaiah Thomas, Otis Thorpe, Kevin Johnson, Horace Grant etc etc for the bench.
   2368. sardonic Posted: September 15, 2017 at 05:35 PM (#5532721)
Other than these few exceptions though, it seems like their list matched up with ours pretty closely. Anyone able to track down our final consensus and post it for reference?


I'll get to it this weekend if no one else does before. There was one last ballot that I didn't average in that I was meaning to get to, and I'm also curious to compare our ranks to NBA Rank.
   2369. TFTIO, for one, is sick and tired of winning Posted: September 16, 2017 at 09:12 AM (#5532922)
I'm not usually a fan of the zillions of alternate jerseys, but man alive, the GSW ones are awesome (although I admit to being an East Bay partisan).
   2370. PJ Martinez Posted: September 16, 2017 at 01:15 PM (#5533001)
Do those jerseys represent an effort on the part of the franchise to hold on to East Bay fans in advance of the team's move to San Francisco?
   2371. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 16, 2017 at 01:52 PM (#5533020)
Most of the attention the last two years has focused on what [the sixers have] done with the no. 1 overall picks, but Simmons and Fultz were consensus top players almost any front office would have taken. What could push them over the top are their low-profile gambles on overseas talent much later in the draft:
[the sixers] have 10 additional draft picks, not counting their own, over the next four years, so don’t be surprised if the overseas influx in Philadelphia continues.


“I see him as a mix between a rich man’s Nik Stauskas and a less [volatile version] of Rudy Fernandez,” one Eastern Conference executive told me.
link
   2372. GregD Posted: September 16, 2017 at 02:13 PM (#5533030)
Do those jerseys represent an effort on the part of the franchise to hold on to East Bay fans in advance of the team's move to San Francisco?
They will need them, given the likely crossing point of the move and the onset of age-related decline and injuries. If they fall to mediocrity (not that unlikely for their first year of 2019-2020 and reasonably likely by the second or third), it's not at all clear that they'll keep being a hot ticket. I am just in my third year here but I don't sense many people are truly basketball fans but are (understandably!) enjoying the Warriors style and their success.
   2373. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 18, 2017 at 09:46 AM (#5533628)
i forget which plumlee is the good plumlee, but one of them just got another 10+MM contract. 3/41
   2374. jmurph Posted: September 18, 2017 at 10:08 AM (#5533634)
“I see him as a mix between a rich man’s Nik Stauskas and a less [volatile version] of Rudy Fernandez,” one Eastern Conference executive told me.

So definitely not an NBA player, then?
   2375. JJ1986 Posted: September 18, 2017 at 10:24 AM (#5533638)
i forget which plumlee is the good plumlee, but one of them just got another 10+MM contract. 3/41
That's the good one. The crappy one is making $37.5 million over the next 3 years.
   2376. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 18, 2017 at 01:28 PM (#5533742)
   2377. PJ Martinez Posted: September 18, 2017 at 07:37 PM (#5534000)
I'm going to dispute the notion that one can reasonably discern actual heights from that photo.

Also, per Draft Express, Towns has significantly longer arms than Simmons (though their standing reach was measured as very close, for some reason), which is probably the more relevant metric.

It'll be nice when Simmons finally plays and we can stop discussing him in terms of hypotheticals.
   2378. sardonic Posted: September 18, 2017 at 07:56 PM (#5534023)
Revenue? No, no, no, no, no. No. If you show revenue, people will ask "How much?" And it will never be enough, but if you have no revenue, you can say you're pre-revenue. You're a potential pure play. It's not about how much you earn, it's about what you're worth. And who's worth the most?


Ben Simmons.
   2379. PJ Martinez Posted: September 18, 2017 at 09:37 PM (#5534074)
The Kevin Durant Twitter story is kind of amusing.

I have also enjoyed the few clips I have seen of the First Take interview with Kyrie Irving, who has a presence and an aura about him that is very reality-based.

In other news, the offseason is almost over.
   2380. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 19, 2017 at 02:18 AM (#5534170)
LOOK: Jimmer Fredette's new signature shoe looks pretty good
Now, there's a new name in the sneaker game. That's right, Jimmer Fredette.
The former No. 10 overall pick has been playing in China since last season, where he absolutely dominated, scoring 73 points in a game and winning the CBA's International MVP Award after averaging 37.6 points per game for the Shanghai Sharks.
Capitalizing on his newfound glory in China, the scoring machine has partnered with Chinese brand 361 on a new signature shoe.
It looks amazing. I need a pair!
   2381. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 19, 2017 at 08:09 AM (#5534190)
The Kevin Durant Twitter story is kind of amusing.

Joel Embiid @JoelEmbiid
JOEL EMBIID IS BETTER THAN MJ EVER WAS @QuireSultan #FACTS #BurnerTwitter
   2382. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: September 19, 2017 at 09:05 AM (#5534215)
The Platonic Ideal 76ers team is better than any team that has ever existed.

When do real games start again?
   2383. TFTIO, for one, is sick and tired of winning Posted: September 19, 2017 at 09:06 AM (#5534216)
When do real games start again?

Not soon enough, dammit.
   2384. jmurph Posted: September 19, 2017 at 09:24 AM (#5534221)
It's pretty soon! Practices start this weekend, so we should get our first season-ending Sixers injury in like 10 days, max. Preseasons games in less than 2 weeks, regular season in less than a month. Not bad. Hopefully baseball remains entertaining over the next month.
   2385. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: September 19, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5534226)
Oooh, yeah, the regular season is less than a month. That's pretty exciting. For some reason I was thinking not until November.
   2386. jmurph Posted: September 19, 2017 at 09:41 AM (#5534233)
I think they moved it up to reduce the back-to-backs? Something like that.
   2387. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 19, 2017 at 11:36 AM (#5534354)
Transition won’t be the only improvement with Simmons running point. With good shooting all around — Fultz, Covington, Embiid and Redick, if that’s the remaining starting five — Simmons’ halfcourt options are numerous and running pick-and-roll with that many options will open lanes. Redick is one of the most active off-ball players in the league. Imagine how many passes Simmons could fire at him coming off a screen. Imagine running pick-and-roll with Fultz or Embiid. The beauty within Simmons’ game is he can exploit the best parts of his teammates. Simmons will be rocket fuel to anyone who shares the floor with him like that guy from Akron.

ridiculously underrated.
   2388. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: September 19, 2017 at 11:44 AM (#5534363)
Does anyone want to do a silly prediction pool? I'm thinking questions like first coach fired, how many games Embiid plays this year, things like that.
   2389. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 19, 2017 at 12:24 PM (#5534403)
Bulls are hiring Doug Collins to be a Senior Director of something something, reporting directly to John Paxson. This is probably pretty bad news for (1) Gar Forman and (2) the Chicago Bulls.
   2390. jmurph Posted: September 19, 2017 at 12:36 PM (#5534410)
And (3) tv viewers. Unless he's keeping that gig?
   2391. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: September 19, 2017 at 01:11 PM (#5534438)
Can someone please hire Mark Jackson so I don't have to listen to him?
   2392. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 19, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5534644)
Does anyone want to do a silly prediction pool? I'm thinking questions like first coach fired, how many games Embiid plays this year, things like that.

dwayne casey
69 (nice.)

the highest NBAranker to get traded midseason?
#18 damian lillard
Bulls are hiring Doug Collins to be a Senior Director of something something, reporting directly to John Paxson. This is probably pretty bad news for (1) Gar Forman and (2) the Chicago Bulls.
kwame brown is a free agent...
   2393. smileyy Posted: September 19, 2017 at 04:57 PM (#5534659)
[2388] Sounds fun
   2394. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 19, 2017 at 04:58 PM (#5534660)
K.C. Johnson‏ @KCJHoop 2m2 minutes ago

Collins: "I think there’s this feeling that I’m a guy who’s always on and fired up. I can sit and do a crossword puzzle for 3 hours now."
   2395. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: September 19, 2017 at 06:19 PM (#5534708)
Andrew Bogut to sign with Lakers for 1 year, $2.3 million. Trade deadline fodder, no question.
   2396. TFTIO, for one, is sick and tired of winning Posted: September 20, 2017 at 08:46 AM (#5534925)
I got my tickets to the Wolves/Raptors here in Toronto. That building sells out too damn fast.
   2397. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 20, 2017 at 01:24 PM (#5535120)
Derek Bodner‏ @DerekBodnerNBA
Brett Brown says he's not able to say what they'll be able to get out of Joel Embiid next week. He has not played 5-on-5 yet. #sixers.
   2398. smileyy Posted: September 20, 2017 at 02:00 PM (#5535170)
Maybe he could play in BIG3?
   2399. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 20, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5535173)
Derek Bodner @DerekBodnerNBA
Brett Brown: "I think right off the bat he [Ben Simmons] has the chance to be an elite defensive player." #sixers
Brown says Simmons changes other players you can have on court with him. Says he doesn't think you can have another player w/out 3 pt range
Bryan Colangelo says Ben Simmons is playing 5-on-5 and he's "dominating the gym" #sixers.
Bryan Colangelo says an extension with Embiid has been discussed. "Cautiously optimistic they can find common ground." #sixers.
   2400. 2 dudes are better than STIGGLES; i'm both of em Posted: September 20, 2017 at 02:02 PM (#5535176)
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