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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6535 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   201. smileyy Posted: February 24, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5629941)
Flip
   202. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: February 24, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5629987)
Sounds like DeAndre Ayton may as well start prepping for the draft. I imagine his college career is over real soon now.

Arizona's head coach offering $100K for his star player just might be a bigger deal than some kids' parents having lunch with an agent.

Lakers fans, any insights on Miles Simon from his time as an assistant coach? I wonder if he'd be a candidate to replace Sean Miller. According to multiple reports, Arizona is obligated to pay Miller the $10M remaining on his contract even if he's fired for criminal misconduct.
   203. tshipman Posted: February 24, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5629999)
All that the NCAA needs to do is stop paying the coaches, assistant coaches and the athletic directors. That way you know that they have the purity of the sport in mind.

As usual the NCAA will brush this over and try to get people to forget the blatant corruption of their business model. This whole thing is a dog bites man story.
   204. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: February 24, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5630003)
I'm so happy that the university where I got my BA has millions to pay coaches (and probably soon to two who don't even coach there anymore) but recently had no money for new history PhD students' stipends. And the NCAA thinks people should be upset that players get paid?
   205. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 24, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5630012)
this is good.
The top players in Shot Profile Score are an intriguing bunch; some you might expect, others not. Al Horford leads all players with a 73.8 SPS, mostly because the Celtics offense is absolutely atrocious shooting the ball without him. When he’s on the floor, Boston shoots 9.7 percent better at the rim and 9.4 percent better from the 3-point line. Horford’s teammate, Kyrie Irving, isn’t far behind him in SPS, which shows just important these two players are to Boston’s postseason hopes. If either one goes down, Boston will struggle to score when the other is off the floor. Also, this strongly suggests that perhaps Brad Stevens should stagger their minutes. It’s great when they play together, but it could be more important to make sure the offense doesn’t have to operate without at least one of them on the floor.

Kemba is an interesting case, and while he’s definitely a great player his on/off numbers could be inflated by having the worst backup situation in the league. When he’s on the floor, the Hornets take 7.8 percent more shots at the rim and hit 7.3 percent more 3s. In contrast, Michael Carter-Williams has one of the worst Shot Profile Scores in the league: The Hornets take less-efficient shots and make a lower percentage of the few efficient shots they do take.

guys like James Johnson and Devin Harris have had huge impacts on their team’s offenses this year. That’s particularly notable for the Dallas Mavericks, who just traded Harris away to the Denver Nuggets. Harris was averaging 18.3 minutes per game for them, which is a big chunk of efficient basketball time that is now missing from their offense
   206. Oriole Tragic: doomed to mysterious ignomy Posted: February 24, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5630050)
Just finished listening to Lowe interview Morey at the Sloan conf. Morey said he believes Hakeem is the best center of all time.

Pretty sure BBTF-NBA thread vigourously disagrees?
   207. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 24, 2018 at 04:09 PM (#5630052)
As usual the NCAA will brush this over and try to get people to forget the blatant corruption of their business model. This whole thing is a dog bites man story.

i don't think they have any other choice. if they go scorched earth on this, they'll piss off so many people that they would open the door for a new professional league to replace them as the top domestic developmental league.


what the NCAA should do is scalp sean miller, then create some kind of truth and reconciliation commission over the summer to get public testimony from coaches, players, agents, bagmen, handlers and so on, in exchange for immunity.
   208. tshipman Posted: February 24, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5630053)
Pretty sure BBTF-NBA thread vigourously disagrees?


I mean, whatever. He's wrong, but he does work for the Rockets, so it's hard to get too upset about it.
   209. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 24, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5630054)
Just finished listening to Lowe interview Morey at the Sloan conf. Morey said he believes Hakeem is the best center of all time.

Pretty sure BBTF-NBA thread vigourously disagrees?
I disagree, but not vigorously. If someone puts Dream in the same sentence as Kareem or Wilt or Russell or Shaq, i don't think anyone's going to freak out.
   210. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 24, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5630063)
According to multiple reports, Arizona is obligated to pay Miller the $10M remaining on his contract even if he's fired for criminal misconduct.
it's a little more interesting than that:
JUST IN: Sean Miller’s contract, as written, somehow pays him more for getting fired with cause than without cause. So if Miller is fired with cause, Arizona will owe him approximately $5 million more ($10.3 million versus $5.15 million) than if they fired for no reason.

— Darren Rovell (@darrenrovell) February 24, 2018
   211. TFTIO is a very stable genius Posted: February 24, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5630072)
Butler did his meniscus. That’s better than a ligament.
   212. JC in DC Posted: February 24, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5630077)
I would think that lawyers can challenge that clause in this case.
   213. Harlond Posted: February 24, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5630081)
I'm a lawyer, but I'm on my second drink. Still, why would you ever fire the guy for cause? Say you're firing him without cause and what's to challenge? Of course, without seeing the whole contract, it's all guesswork.

I mean, the idea that the employee has some right to be fired for cause rather than without, that's not founded in any common or statutory law I've ever encountered in 33 years of practice. Generally the employee benefits when termination is without cause, because cause means the employee effed up. So the law protects the employee from being fired with cause when there is no cause, rather than the other way round. That's probably why the contract is written that way, to ensure they only fire him without cause.

If they fire him with cause, they need new lawyers. Or it's part of a deal where he falls on his sword and the university is spared as much as possible.
   214. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 24, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5630089)
Jason Myrtetus @jasonmyrt
At Event tonight and received tip from good source with direct communication from Malvern Prep employee that “LeBron James representatives did in fact tour Malvern Thursday and also met with players families”. It seems Lebrons people are exploring options should he come to philly


no. i will not calm down.
   215. Tin Angel Posted: February 24, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5630111)
Paul George was 1-14 with Klay Thompson in his face all night.
   216. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 25, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5630148)
   217. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5630203)
What do you guys think about the Zaza Pachulia "falling" on Westbrook? Looks really bad to me.
   218. JC in DC Posted: February 25, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5630204)
More importantly, does last night's game put to rest the notion GS is vulnerable?
   219. tshipman Posted: February 25, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5630208)
What do you guys think about the Zaza Pachulia "falling" on Westbrook? Looks really bad to me.


There's another angle that shows what happens a bit more clearly.

Nick Young's foot catches Zaza behind the knee, which brings him down. Looks like his hand slips, and it makes him fall further.

Westbrook's reaction was somewhat understandable, but out of line.
   220. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 25, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5630210)
Yeah, once you view the video looking for Young's foot, it looks like it was not intentional.
   221. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 25, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5630230)
TNT should hire SVG this off season. He'll be good on television. He should start a podcast, too.
   222. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: February 25, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5630244)
I viewed the video looking for Young's foot, and it looks very much to me like Zaza took the opportunity to land as hard as he could on Westbrook's leg. Very dirty play.
   223. SteveF Posted: February 25, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5630247)
I've watched that 3 seconds about 50 times and I still can't tell either way.
   224. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 25, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5630252)
players like zaza should never get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. that doesn't mean every borderline play is cheap or dirty, but you should assume that it is unless there's good reason not to.

nick young's foot may be a plausible reason for him falling like that, but it's not a good one.
   225. Tin Angel Posted: February 25, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5630261)
Looks dirty to me. You can even see him glance down and realize Westbrook is on the floor before he falls on him.
   226. sardonic Posted: February 25, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5630262)
Another take -- Russ is arguably making just as dirty a play, taking out Nick Young's legs as he falls, and playing out of control on that OREB attempt. Possibly interpretations:

1) Russ takes out Nick Young, who then takes out Zaza, who has limited control over his body and gravity takes its course. Russ caused the whole thing, so if any is liable it's him, but otherwise just one of those things that happens when you ball.
2) Russ takes out Nick Young, who collides with Zaza. Zaza could have minimized the impact on Russ but doesn't because
a) he's dirty -- he actually tried to maximize damage to Russ, and is disappointed that he failed
b) he's physical -- many basketball players would not go out of their way to minimize contact
c) he was more physical on that play because he perceived that Russ was playing dirty by taking out Young

After looking at this set of stills, I'm more inclined to think more option 1, but there's probably at least some of each bucket in option 2.
   227. JC in DC Posted: February 25, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5630276)
I can't tell, either, except to say if he really wanted to hurt Russ, he missed a great opportunity to drive his knee or elbow into Russ's quad or knee. You can't miss those opportunities as an athlete!
   228. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: February 25, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5630280)
As a somewhat clumsy oaf on the basketball court in days of yore, I have to mostly side with Zaza on this one. He could have lessened the impact on Westbrook, which would have been the sportsman like thing to do, since he was hitting him close to the knees.

Basically I agree with #226. Westbrook was no innocent in this transaction.

   229. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 25, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5630299)
Shams Charania
Once Hawks buyout is complete, forward Ersan Ilyasova plans to work toward finalizing agreement with the Philadelphia 76ers, league sources tell Yahoo.
we're getting the band back together.

Net
Rk                                                        Lineup     MP   PTS
1       
' R. CovingtonJ. EmbiidE. IlyasovaT. McConnell'NS******s 114:32 '+15.1'
2          RCovingtonJEmbiidGHendersonSRodriguezDSaric  82:44 +11.4
3          R
CovingtonGHendersonRHolmesSRodriguezDSaric  44:48 +10.2
4         
'R. Covington'GHenderson'E. IlyasovaT. McConnell'NNoel  66:42  '+4.8'
5       'R. CovingtonJ. Embiid'GHenderson'E. Ilyasova'SRodriguez 102:22  '+2.8'
6             RCovingtonTMcConnellNNoelDSaricNS******S  47:31  -0.2
7    R
CovingtonRHolmesTLuwawu-CabarrotTMcConnellDSaric  60:34  -1.5
8    R
CovingtonTLuwawu-CabarrotTMcConnellJOkaforDSaric  46:34  -1.7
9          R
CovingtonGHendersonRHolmesTMcConnellDSaric  56:26  -6.0
10          R
CovingtonRHolmesTMcConnellDSaricNS******s  54:02  -6.5 


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 2/25/2018.


also, this:
@SpikeEskin 34m34 minutes ago
really not hating but BCs acquisition list gets funnier by the day:
Ersan Ilyasova
Sergio Rodriguez
Gerald Henderson
Jerryd Bayless
Amir Johnson
JJ Redick (obvs more quality than others)
Trevor Booker
Tiago Splitter
Marco Belinelli
Ersan Ilyasova
   230. tshipman Posted: February 25, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5630332)
players like zaza should never get the benefit of the doubt in situations like this.


What about guys like Westbrook? not exactly the first time he's taken down a defender with him while going for an offensive board.
   231. zenbitz Posted: February 25, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5630335)
I saw the Zaza Westbrook play live (well on TV), and it never occurred to me that it was intentional. However, I am not much of an NBA fan and I kinda forgot about Zaza's rep.

I think he got tangled and fell accidentally, but he also makes no attempt to minimize (or maximize) the damage.
   232. zenbitz Posted: February 25, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5630337)
I also didn't think last year's play on Kawhi was *particularly* dirty.
   233. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5630538)
I thought it was intentional by Zaza, but didn't think last year's on Kawhi was.

Glad to hear it wasn't an ACL for Butler.
   234. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5630545)
The important thing is how funny it will be if OKC doesn't make the playoffs.
   235. jmurph Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5630554)
The important thing is how funny it will be if OKC doesn't make the playoffs.

I have not been paying attention to how tightly bunched the West is. 3-10 is separated by 4.5 games, that's nuts.
   236. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5630556)
Just say Stan Van's remarks. Preach it, Stan! I like Stan but I hope he and the Pistons part ways reasonably soon so he can get a job just coaching again. It's interesting to think that if the Cavs had pre-knowledge LeBron wanted to go back to Cleveland if they might have had a chance to hire Van Gundy instead of hiring Blatt.
   237. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5630558)
I have not been paying attention to how tightly bunched the West is. 3-10 is separated by 4.5 games, that's nuts.

I think that OKC will make it pretty easily by the end of the year but the chances are increasing they get the Rockets, Warriors or Spurs in round 1. Not what they were hoping for this year, I'm sure.
   238. nick swisher hygiene Posted: February 26, 2018 at 12:32 PM (#5630580)
I'm gonna say that OKC is pretty clearly the 3rd most dangerous playoff team in the West, but.... The Oladipo thing is a tell. Looked like a great trade, right? Of course, I think that if he stays in OKC, he never develops. This is the biggest downside of Russ's ball-dominance.
   239. Howie Menckel Posted: February 26, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5630615)
I just read "Court Justice: The Inside Story of My Battle Against the NCAA" by Ed O'Bannon.

there's a lot more in there in this book than just his lawsuit about his likeness being in the EA Sports video game. he had an unusual college vs pro career, and he explains that pretty well, too.
   240. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 26, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5630676)
Just say Stan Van's remarks. Preach it, Stan! I like Stan but I hope he and the Pistons part ways reasonably soon so he can get a job just coaching again. It's interesting to think that if the Cavs had pre-knowledge LeBron wanted to go back to Cleveland if they might have had a chance to hire Van Gundy instead of hiring Blatt.

i'm not gonna attack SVG for that, but the truth is, the root of this particular inequality between white baseball/hockey players and black basketball players is 98% due the NBA's own actions.

the NBA forces prospective draftees to opt in to the draft, while the NHL and MLB don't. if the NBA changed that (and if players adapted to the new scheme by "consulting" "advisers" instead of hiring agents), players would be able to go through the draft process, and even get drafted, without losing their NCAA eligibility.

that said, the justifications, explanations and commentary surrounding basketball players leaving school early is very much in line with america's proud and ongoing tradition of white supremacy.


Darren Rovell @darrenrovell
A Philadelphia-based company put up three billboards on highway to downtown Cleveland this morning saying that city wanted LeBron. Here they are in order.
pic.twitter.com/vntsa8h3mE
decent idea, but shitty execution. i give it 13 out of 10.
   241. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 26, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5630689)
I just read "Court Justice: The Inside Story of My Battle Against the NCAA" by Ed O'Bannon.


I'll have to check that out. I'm from freaking North Carolina, but loved that '95 UCLA team--I still can't believe that Toby Bailey had virtually no NBA career. O'Bannon was fun, too, but turns out that unathletic college seniors with bad knees rarely acheive NBA stardom.
   242. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 26, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5630720)
NCAA is awful because the NCAA is awful.

NBA is one-and-done, not because of the NCAA but because that's what the NBA wanted and the NBAPA either also wanted, or didn't not want enough to get it eliminated.

Feels like those two get mixed up in people's minds a lot. Maybe I'm mixing them up right now!
   243. jmurph Posted: February 26, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5630723)
I thought for sure when the NBA lowered the D/G League age minimum to 18 a few years ago it was the beginning of a plan to bypass college basketball, but there hasn't been any movement on that front at all, as far as I can tell. Unless the two-way contract is a part of that plan?

This still seems like the overwhelmingly obvious play: expand the draft to 4 (or 3 or 5 or however many) rounds, make HS grads eligible, use the D League like a real minor league, and done.
   244. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 26, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5630731)
The reason the NBA hasn't made moves to replace the NCAA with the G-League seems pretty simple to me: the NCAA is free, the NBA doesn't have to manage it, and it isn't a threat to keep talent from reaching the NBA. I could see the NBAPA deciding it was tired of players getting exploited for at least a year, but they have tended to prioritize existing players over upcoming players. The league doesn't even have to have any relationship to the NCAA. It's going to take some sort of forcing function (and who knows, maybe this current scandal will be what gets the ball rolling) to get the NBA to turn down the free development league it's been using its whole existence.
   245. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 26, 2018 at 04:09 PM (#5630736)
A thread of Zaza Pachulia playing dirty and attempting to injure opposing teams players:
pic.twitter.com/wYL49D9n6I
— mf DOOM in CAPS (@GAMEWINING3) February 25, 2018


A pointless, irrelevant, and frustratingly distracting debate that pops up after every occasion of this bullshit concerns intent: Whether Pachulia intended to injure or hurt or clobber or fall on this or that opponent, or if it happened as an incidental result of his limitations and how he plays basketball. The simple and only answer in all instances is, it doesn’t ####### matter. For example, when Pachulia dropped all of his 270 pounds on Russell Westbrook’s legs for no visible reason on Saturday evening: If he did this on purpose, as Westbrook believes (and no honest observer could sincerely dispute), then he is a ####### goon who can’t be trusted to participate in NBA games, and has no business on the court. If he sprawled onto Westbrook’s legs for no visible reason on accident, then he is a clumsy ####### doofus who can’t be trusted to participate in NBA games, and has no business on the court.


yup. link
   246. jmurph Posted: February 26, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5630739)
The reason the NBA hasn't made moves to replace the NCAA with the G-League seems pretty simple to me: the NCAA is free,

Yeah that's fine (it's also a built-in brand booster for those 19 year olds before they get drafted). But that wouldn't have to change, they'd just be giving teams the option to draft the very best high school kids. Some amount of those kids will still choose college, and the late(r) bloomers will still choose college. The NCAA seemed to exist just fine as a free source of training when high schoolers were draft eligible.
   247. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 26, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5630854)
the 8 worst teams in the NBA are each on 3+ game losing streaks, adding up to a combined 44 losses.

also, fultz's janktitude (sp?) is on the decline. for now.
   248. tshipman Posted: February 26, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5630867)
A pointless, irrelevant, and frustratingly distracting debate that pops up after every occasion of this bullshit concerns intent: Whether Pachulia intended to injure or hurt or clobber or fall on this or that opponent, or if it happened as an incidental result of his limitations and how he plays basketball. The simple and only answer in all instances is, it doesn’t ####### matter. For example, when Pachulia dropped all of his 270 pounds on Russell Westbrook’s legs for no visible reason on Saturday evening: If he did this on purpose, as Westbrook believes (and no honest observer could sincerely dispute), then he is a ####### goon who can’t be trusted to participate in NBA games, and has no business on the court. If he sprawled onto Westbrook’s legs for no visible reason on accident, then he is a clumsy ####### doofus who can’t be trusted to participate in NBA games, and has no business on the court.


This is a dumb take because, you know, there was a visible reason. His knee got taken out.

Westbrook was the one who took down Nick Young while he was falling down for no reason.
   249. Booey Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5630882)
the 8 worst teams in the NBA are each on 3+ game losing streaks, adding up to a combined 44 losses.


DAL and BKN both won tonight.
   250. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:47 PM (#5630884)
Anthony Davis in his last 6 is averaging 41 points, 15 boards, 2 assists, 3 blocks, and 2 steals while shooting 54% from the field and 39% from three.
   251. PJ Martinez Posted: February 26, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5630885)
He's also starting to give Harden some competition in the MVP race.
   252. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: February 27, 2018 at 12:25 AM (#5630891)
I really think all offensive stats compiled against the Suns should be stricken from the record.
   253. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 07:39 AM (#5630912)
#245. People finding the most strident take they can on a subject on the intertubes and then declaring it the end of all argument is the worst. Not impressed.

   254. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:18 AM (#5630924)
tshipman and Shooty - It seems a bit like a couple of Warriors fans doing weird mental gymnastics to justify what occurred.

Let's just be straight. Do you consider Zaza, in general, a dirty player? If not, I'd like an explanation of why that is the case after having watched the twitter thread of Zaza clips.

If you do consider him a dirty player, I hope you can consider why people are reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt. In this scenario Nick Young's leg hit him behind the knee, but I'm skeptical it was enough force to bring him down. I also acknowledge that when you get hit in sensitive spots like that my general reaction when playing sports is to crumple down to protect the joints and not try to stand up through the contact. So, in conclusion, my take here is it's a debatable dirty play - may have just been a really weird situation. It also may have just been a "let me fall on you so you can't get back in transition" sort of thing that happens a fair amount in the NBA. But, Zaza is a dirty player in my and many other peoples opinions, and even when he's not being explicitly dirty (which, imo, some of the plays in the twitter thread are explicitly dirty) he's regularly riding that edge of dirty and clean play. I think a fair amount of the frustration among NBA fans, though unspoken, is that Golden State is already the best team and having their most brutish player pull dirty #### against other teams' best players leaves a bad taste in their mouth. And yes, other teams have dirty players too. Bruce Bowen was dirty. That doesn't make fans of teams that employed also dirty players hypocrites for calling it out or saying they don't like it.
   255. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:24 AM (#5630926)
tshipman and Shooty - It seems a bit like a couple of Warriors fans doing weird mental gymnastics to justify what occurred.

I didn't even see the play. My problems with 245 are rhetorical.
   256. jmurph Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5630940)
I don't watch them a lot but I genuinely enjoy watching the Jazz play. Some of it is the two big lineup, which has obviously become rare, some is the old school point guard in Rubio, I don't know, there's a lot going on. But they're somehow fun to watch despite not exactly having an explosive offense.
   257. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:52 AM (#5630944)
There's a salient point there in #245, which is that if a guy is so clumsy that he just can't help injuring opponents on a regular basis, he wouldn't be able to play in the NBA. "Whoops, damn, I'm just such a klutz" is a weak-ass excuse for "accidentally" injuring opponents (but, curiously enough, never teammates).

As a hockey fan I've been seeing that same bullshit excuse for years and years from guys ranging from Chris Simon to Matt Cooke to Tom Wilson, who all were/are dirty players, ever vigilant for opportunities to "accidentally" injure opponents.
   258. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:52 AM (#5630945)
Did anyone see Mudiay make 3 3-pointers against the Warriors last night! The cheek! The insolence! He even blocked Steph's shot on a drive to the basket once! Really, though, in the first half yesterday both he and Nicotine looked good (more offensively than defensively, weirdly enough). Then the clamps came out but until then it looked like the Knicks have something to work with with those two. I'll say it again, I really liked that the Knicks picked up Mudiay.

   259. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5630949)
There's a salient point there in #245, which is that if a guy is so clumsy that he just can't help injuring opponents on a regular basis, he wouldn't be able to play in the NBA. "Whoops, damn, I'm just such a klutz" is a weak-ass excuse for "accidentally" injuring opponents (but, curiously enough, never teammates).

I probably watch a lot more of the Warriors than a lot of you guys and Zaza isn't pummeling mofo's right and left. Bogut was a dirtier player than Zaza and the player Zaza has hurt the worst since he's been a Warrior is Kevin Durant.
   260. jmurph Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5630952)
Bogut was a dirtier player than Zaza and the player Zaza has hurt the worst since he's been a Warrior is Kevin Durant.

Isn't the answer here technically Kawhi?
   261. Rally Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5630954)
Arizona is obligated to pay Miller the $10M remaining on his contract even if he's fired for criminal misconduct.


I don't pay enough attention to the NCAA, but is this outcome still possible, perhaps even likely?

1. Miller is fired and gets his money
2. Miller signs to coach another D-1 team, because punishment goes to the program, not the coach. He's essentially got a clean record in his new home.
3. Kids who were in the 4th grade at the time of the violations will eventually be punished with tournament bans if they play for future Arizona teams.

Louisville Cardinals! 2013 NCAA champs! May the flag fly forever, just not at the KFC Yum center.
   262. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5630958)
Isn't the answer here technically Kawhi?

Naw. Kawhi was already hurt from tripping over David Lee's foot earlier in that game and he was already already hurt from the Rockets series. He shouldn't have been on the court, really. (And I think that's why Pop was so upset and threw Zaza under the bus, because playing Kawhi when he wasn't ready to go was un-Spursy, but don't say I said that because I don't want pitchforks and torches and shit on my front yard tonight).
   263. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5630965)
A question for you lawyers about that Miller contract. Did Arizona giving him that contract mean that they expected and maybe even encouraged him to break NCAA rules? Something like this:

AU: Build us a winner at any cost
SM: Hey, I can't go around breaking NCAA rules, I have a career to think about
AU: Tell you what, we'll make it so if you do get caught and we have to fire you, you'll be set for life.
SM: But what if I just fail and the team is mediocre?
AU: You still get a payout but not as much because you'll still be able to get another gig
   264. . . . . . . Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5630970)
A question for you lawyers about that Miller contract. Did Arizona giving him that contract mean that they expected and maybe even encouraged him to break NCAA rules?


As a lawyer, my take: Most lawyers are shitty and the lawyers doing university employment contracts are extra shitty because that is a shitty dead-end legal job that you take if you want to work 9-5 and get nice benefits. They just ###### up.
   265. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5630971)
A question for you lawyers about that Miller contract. Did Arizona giving him that contract mean that they expected and maybe even encouraged him to break NCAA rules? Something like this:

AU: Build us a winner at any cost
SM: Hey, I can't go around breaking NCAA rules, I have a career to think about
AU: Tell you what, we'll make it so if you do get caught and we have to fire you, you'll be set for life.
SM: But what if I just fail and the team is mediocre?
AU: You still get a payout but not as much because you'll still be able to get another gig
i think harland in post [213] had the right answer:
Generally the employee benefits when termination is without cause, because cause means the employee effed up. So the law protects the employee from being fired with cause when there is no cause, rather than the other way round. That's probably why the contract is written that way, to ensure they only fire him without cause.


...

There's a salient point there in #245, which is that if a guy is so clumsy that he just can't help injuring opponents on a regular basis, he wouldn't be able to play in the NBA. "Whoops, damn, I'm just such a klutz" is a weak-ass excuse for "accidentally" injuring opponents (but, curiously enough, never teammates).

As a hockey fan I've been seeing that same bullshit excuse for years and years from guys ranging from Chris Simon to Matt Cooke to Tom Wilson, who all were/are dirty players, ever vigilant for opportunities to "accidentally" injure opponents.

yup. my opinion of zaza is also heavily informed by my hockey fandom. i have a very low tolerance for players who consistently put themselves in a position to seriously injure other players.

let's dispel with the notion that zaza pachulia doesn't know what he's doing. he knows exactly what he's doing.
   266. . . . . . . Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5630976)
Also: as a Michigan fan, I am delighted to see that Trey Burke is going to reach the level I always thought he'd achieve in the League, which is "enigmatic sixth man scorer". He'll never have the tools to defend but I always thought he had a better college ability to shake off for uncontested shots than he showed in his first few years as a pro. Weird that it took him so long to figure it out at the next level, but I think this is quasi-sustainable as long as he's used judiciously as an energy bench guy.
   267. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5630977)
Generally the employee benefits when termination is without cause, because cause means the employee effed up. So the law protects the employee from being fired with cause when there is no cause, rather than the other way round. That's probably why the contract is written that way, to ensure they only fire him without cause.

How do you fire someone "without" cause would be my question, then.
   268. . . . . . . Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5630981)
How do you fire someone "without" cause would be my question, then.


Employment is weird in that sense. Take discrimination rules: you can fire an at-will employee for any reason, but not for a prohibited reason. So if I have a black employee, I can fire him for playing Britney Spears too loud in his cubicle, but I can't fire him for being black.

Gross oversimplification, but for employment relationships (whether contractual or not), the law respects that an employer might want to fire someone for no ####### reason other than they get on the employer's nerves, so that's permitted and distinguished from firing for a reason - be it 'cause' (which generally is a contractual concept that justifies not paying severance, etc) or on grounds that are illegal under law (i.e. discrimination).

IIRC (though its been a while) 'cause' is also relevant in most states to the employee's entitlement to unemployment benefits.

   269. jmurph Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5630992)
I'm seeing people post about the 5 year anniversary of Curry going off in MSG. I found this email I sent to a friend as I was watching it:
He's 11 for go##amn 13 from 3. This is stupid.

I stand by that.

EDIT: The nanny is a woman of faith, I had no idea.
   270. jmurph Posted: February 27, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5631000)
Blind share on this one: Lowe on Drazen.
   271. Howie Menckel Posted: February 27, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5631006)
that's a good piece on Petrovic.

his motto with the Nets was "first man in, last one out" on practice days.

one other guy similar in that respect, you might not guess, no kidding: Latrell Sprewell.
   272. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5631009)
I was living in Salinas, CA in Drazen's hey-day and he was probably one of the 5 or so most popular players in my circle along with Jordan and Barkley. There was something very appealing about him.
   273. Conor Posted: February 27, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5631018)
There was a story put out by one of the Arizona papers that said the Rovell story about Miller's contract was wrong.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/02/25/university-says-sean-miller-would-not-get-more-money-if-fired-cause/371709002/
   274. Booey Posted: February 27, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5631028)
Weird call at the end of last nights Jazz/Rockets game: Chris Paul got a turnover in the final seconds for high fiving James Harden's mom on the sidelines as he was dribbling out the clock. I guess cuz she was standing out of bounds?
   275. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 27, 2018 at 01:04 PM (#5631073)
DAL and BKN both won tonight.

To be fair to BKN, they were playing the Bulls, so the Bulls did their part to help that streak.
   276. jmurph Posted: February 27, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5631088)
To be fair to BKN, they were playing the Bulls, so the Bulls did their part to help that streak.

#clutchloss, to quote stiggles.
   277. SteveF Posted: February 27, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5631090)
Weird call at the end of last nights Jazz/Rockets game: Chris Paul got a turnover in the final seconds for high fiving James Harden's mom on the sidelines as he was dribbling out the clock. I guess cuz she was standing out of bounds?

"The player is out-of-bounds when he touches the floor or any object on or outside a boundary."
   278. Booey Posted: February 27, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5631102)
"The player is out-of-bounds when he touches the floor or any object on or outside a boundary."


I figured that was probably the "right" call, just never actually seen it happen like that before.
   279. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 27, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5631106)
"The player is out-of-bounds when he touches the floor or any object on or outside a boundary."
wait, so if a defender has one foot on the sideline, and he touches a player who has control of the ball, that's a turnover?
   280. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5631131)
There was a story put out by one of the Arizona papers that said the Rovell story about Miller's contract was wrong.

That makes a lot more sense. The previous reporting kind of defied logic.
   281. SteveF Posted: February 27, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5631145)
wait, so if a defender has one foot on the sideline, and he touches a player who has control of the ball, that's a turnover?

I guess players maybe aren't objects? Or maybe the NBA rulebook isn't all that useful for determining what the NBA rules actually are? Probably the latter.
   282. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 27, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5631195)
I feel like we should mock the Cavs fan for taunting Patty Mills for being Jamaican when Patty Mills' ancestry is about as far away from Jamaica as you can get and still be on planet Earth, you know, for posterity. When future OCD cultural studies scholars--and in the future era of AI robots, all humans will be cultural studies scholars or soylent green--I want whomever is studying niche sports webforum communities to know that, yes, while our culture was mired in a deep lethargy of stupidity at the time, even we knew that guy was a dope and made note of it.
   283. aberg Posted: February 27, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5631222)
The Wolves took care of business against the TanKings last night, but things are about to get ugly. Next seven games: @POR, @UTA (b2b), BOS, GS, @WAS, @SA, HOU (b2b). If they come out of that at 2-5, I'll be fine with it. If they get 3 wins, I'll be ecstatic. They're going to need Wiggins and Teague to play like they have when Butler has been out of the lineup, plus the rest of the rotation is going to have to lock in defensively. A playoff spot could very well depend on it. My main hope is that some of the other lower West playoff teams also hit a little bit of a rough patch since the Wolves have 3-5 games in hand on most of them.
   284. smileyy Posted: February 27, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5631225)
My guess is that other players on the floor aren't "objects" but anyone else (fans, bench players, coaches)
   285. tshipman Posted: February 27, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5631405)
Let's just be straight. Do you consider Zaza, in general, a dirty player? If not, I'd like an explanation of why that is the case after having watched the twitter thread of Zaza clips.

If you do consider him a dirty player, I hope you can consider why people are reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt. In this scenario Nick Young's leg hit him behind the knee, but I'm skeptical it was enough force to bring him down. I also acknowledge that when you get hit in sensitive spots like that my general reaction when playing sports is to crumple down to protect the joints and not try to stand up through the contact. So, in conclusion, my take here is it's a debatable dirty play - may have just been a really weird situation. It also may have just been a "let me fall on you so you can't get back in transition" sort of thing that happens a fair amount in the NBA. But, Zaza is a dirty player in my and many other peoples opinions, and even when he's not being explicitly dirty (which, imo, some of the plays in the twitter thread are explicitly dirty) he's regularly riding that edge of dirty and clean play. I think a fair amount of the frustration among NBA fans, though unspoken, is that Golden State is already the best team and having their most brutish player pull dirty #### against other teams' best players leaves a bad taste in their mouth. And yes, other teams have dirty players too. Bruce Bowen was dirty. That doesn't make fans of teams that employed also dirty players hypocrites for calling it out or saying they don't like it.


1. In general, I think it's helpful to differentiate between dirty players and guys who have dirty plays on their resume. There are not that many dirty players in NBA history. Laimbeer, Bowen, maybe Raja Bell. There's not that many. Guys who genuinely try to hurt the opposing players are pretty rare in NBA history.
2. Zaza is a guy with a number of dirty plays. Not all of the ones in that twitter feed were dirty. Zaza is also a big flopper. A fair number of those were flops. I think it's pretty fair to say that Zaza is a questionable player. I'd put him in the same category as Westbrook, actually, who also frequently pushes the envelope, particularly on the glass.
3. For guys with questionable reputations there's often a rush to judgment. The Kawhi play, for example, was dirty. It also happens in every game. Because there was an injury, people talked about the Kawhi play and not about the Aldridge/Durant play a couple days later.
4. I'm not thinking, man, Zaza needs a defense. I'm thinking, people are ignoring reality by saying it was 100% intentional that he fell. I don't like being gaslit and told that some guy on the internet totally knows how much force is required to bring down a seven footer. I think that anyone who says that Zaza fell for no reason has an agenda, and it annoys me.
5. I think Houston at least is better than Golden State.
   286. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5631433)
The Cavs barely win a game at home against the lowly Nets despite shooting 52% from the field, and 50% from three.

The Cavs are going to score but man they are bad defensively and Love ain't going to help with that.
   287. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5631444)
4. I'm not thinking, man, Zaza needs a defense. I'm thinking, people are ignoring reality by saying it was 100% intentional that he fell. I don't like being gaslit and told that some guy on the internet totally knows how much force is required to bring down a seven footer. I think that anyone who says that Zaza fell for no reason has an agenda, and it annoys me.

the linked article didn't argue that zaza did it on purpose. the point it made was that whether zaza did it on purpose or not was a distinction without a difference:
Whether Pachulia intended to injure or hurt or clobber or fall on this or that opponent, or if it happened as an incidental result of his limitations and how he plays basketball. The simple and only answer in all instances is, it doesn’t ####### matter.




#clutchloss, to quote stiggles.
i'm a trendsetter.
   288. tshipman Posted: February 27, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5631449)
the linked article didn't argue that zaza did it on purpose. the point it made was that whether zaza did it on purpose or not was a distinction without a difference:


For example, when Pachulia dropped all of his 270 pounds on Russell Westbrook’s legs for no visible reason on Saturday evening: If he did this on purpose, as Westbrook believes (and no honest observer could sincerely dispute),


orly?
   289. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: February 27, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5631466)
Whoa...

With Harden, Paul and Capela all healthy, the Rockets are 30-1 with a plus-13.8 point differential -- and 2-0 against Golden State.
   290. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 28, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5631549)
#clutchloss, to quote stiggles.

They just got their ass kicked by the Nets (they sat LaVine, he's not playing B2B so he played last night instead) and then got their ass kicked by the Hornets last night. They have to work hard to tank, but dammit if they're not trying their best.
   291. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 28, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5631559)
Houston having a better DRating than Golden State is baffling to me. Houston did add some good defenders this offseason in Tucker and Paul.

I can't help but feel like Durant and Draymond are gonna turn up the defense in the playoffs.
   292. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 28, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5631566)
Re: 285

Thanks for the response.
   293. jmurph Posted: February 28, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5631578)
5. I think Houston at least is better than Golden State.

I'm still skeptical. I see all the numbers but I'm still skeptical.
   294. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 28, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5631596)
In general, I think it's helpful to differentiate between dirty players and guys who have dirty plays on their resume. There are not that many dirty players in NBA history. Laimbeer, Bowen, maybe Raja Bell. There's not that many. Guys who genuinely try to hurt the opposing players are pretty rare in NBA history.

James Posey. Maybe it's just us Bulls fans that feel that way though.

2. Zaza is a guy with a number of dirty plays. Not all of the ones in that twitter feed were dirty. Zaza is also a big flopper. A fair number of those were flops. I think it's pretty fair to say that Zaza is a questionable player. I'd put him in the same category as Westbrook, actually, who also frequently pushes the envelope, particularly on the glass.

I'm fine with the ideas here, but how many dirty plays until the player is dirty? IMO, Zaza seems to have crossed that threshold, while CPnutpunch and Draymoundnutkick haven't. Or maybe it's easier for someone like Zaza with his clumsiness/coordination issues to cross the line because he can/does inflict more damage than Paul because how big he is.
   295. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: February 28, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5631619)
I'm fine with the ideas here, but how many dirty plays until the player is dirty? IMO, Zaza seems to have crossed that threshold, while CPnutpunch and Draymoundnutkick haven't. Or maybe it's easier for someone like Zaza with his clumsiness/coordination issues to cross the line because he can/does inflict more damage than Paul because how big he is.

Draymond was absolutely considered dirty by many at the height of his nutkick shenanigans. Interestingly, when I've watched Golden State lately I've not noticed Draymond play as chippy/dirty for a while now, and I'm starting to entertain the idea of no longer considering him dirty. And it seems like along with that, he's not playing with the same edge, and his defense seems way down to me.
   296. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 28, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5631645)
orly?
yes.

that's the writers opinion, but the article is specifically about the irrelevance of that opinion.
Draymond was absolutely considered dirty by many at the height of his nutkick shenanigans. Interestingly, when I've watched Golden State lately I've not noticed Draymond play as chippy/dirty for a while now, and I'm starting to entertain the idea of no longer considering him dirty. And it seems like along with that, he's not playing with the same edge, and his defense seems way down to me.

the fact that he was so easily able to stop kicking people in the nuts is decent evidence that he was deliberately kicking people in the nuts.
   297. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 28, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5631673)
the fact that he was so easily able to stop kicking people in the nuts is decent evidence that he was deliberately kicking people in the nuts.


Eh, that seems a bit pat to me, like the Burnenko line about "no honest observer". Draymond Green seems to be a player that needs to work himself into a froth to play his best defense. I don't like Draymond, but love Marcus Smart, and am very aware the main difference between the two is which team they play for (well and Smart has yet to hit anyone in the family region). It seems much more likely to me that the nut-kicking is a side-effect of the crazed way he plays.

As with the Zaza play(s), I don't care about intent, as it's not knowable. To me you are what you do. Draymond was dirty, but hasn't been this season. I guess to me he's on reputation probation? The proof will be whether he flips out when the playoffs roll around. Zaza has lost the benefit of the doubt in my book at this point (though, as others point out, Westbrook has too in terms of recklessness in that sort of play.)
   298. Booey Posted: February 28, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5631675)
the fact that he was so easily able to stop kicking people in the nuts is decent evidence that he was deliberately kicking people in the nuts.


He also deliberately hit James Harden in his injured wrist, as per his own admission.

Draymond had enough incidents in a short period of time that he would've crossed into the "definitely dirty" group for me, but like Spicey says, he seems to have calmed down a bit, so maybe he's eased himself back into the merely "questionable" category.
   299. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 28, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5631679)
Somehow I missed (or forgot) about that Green/Harden one. I thought the nutkicking was reckless and dirty, but a different type of dirty than trying to injure dirty. That doesn't mean I'm ok with someone trying to kick me in the balls, it's just that's less damaging to me than...

You know what. I'm not going to try and rank anything with nutkicking. I still say Zaza is worse.
   300. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: February 28, 2018 at 12:33 PM (#5631687)
Somehow I missed (or forgot) about that Green/Harden one. I thought the nutkicking was reckless and dirty, but a different type of dirty than trying to injure dirty. That doesn't mean I'm ok with someone trying to kick me in the balls, it's just that's less damaging to me than...

You know what. I'm not going to try and rank anything with nutkicking. I still say Zaza is worse.
yeah, the issue is the gratuitousness of it. like just, why?

no other basketball had ever done that, so it seems like green just wanted to kick people who annoy him in the nuts.
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