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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6537 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2101. Fourth True Outcome Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5655985)
I am very curious how Kawhi's situation is going to play out. Is this going to be like the situation LMA discussed at the beginning of the year, when he asked for a trade and Pop figured out how to get his buy in? Reading between the lines, I've been fairly convinced by people making the case that this is a Bill Walton-situation, where the Spurs medical team cleared him to come back too early, he got reinjured, and now is solely listening to his team on medical advice. But if that is the case, it makes it interesting that Pop has been so publicly irritated with the situation.

So to my mind the two questions are:
1) Is the Spurs' irritation with Kawhi about this season, or a more broadly troubled relationship? If it's the former, I don't see why they would trade him. If it's the latter, I'd expect he's gone.

2) How chronic will the effects of this injury be? Kawhi could be fine next season, if this all clears up, or this could be like the chronic tendinitis that has taken some of Blake Griffin's athleticism. (Obviously there's a good deal left.) Healthy Kawhi is a top 5 player in the league, but if his quad is never the same, he could easily become an anchor on a max or supermax contract.

Both parts of that are totally unknowable to those of us in the chattering classes, so it'll be interesting to see if he gets publically shopped, how much interest there is for him, and what teams are willing to offer for him. The Spurs being the Spurs I'd guess the smooth things over this offseason, but if that doesn't happen it would be really interesting to see a Spurs rebuild if that's what happens, and what Kawhi could do in another setting.
   2102. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5655989)
i brought this up a bunch of times w/r/t jahlil okafor, but it still holds true despite him appearing to be a bust.

you can't beat harden/paul or curry/durant (or even lillard/mccollum) by shooting 3s.

the way to smoke out these 3P shooting smallball lineups is to crash the offensive glass and get to the FT line.

   2103. KronicFatigue Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5655995)
Last page, back when this was a Knicks-centric discussion, I realized I've been rooting against the Knicks longer (2001-current) than I was rooting for them (1989-2001). In theory, I still consider myself a Knicks fan (though no longer follow the NBA outside of this board) but I'll root against them until Dolan is gone. I had a moral conflict when there were rumors of JVG interviewing, since his resignation was the final straw for me.
   2104. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5655996)
It's just my own dimwitted opinion, but if Gregg Popovich were to start shopping Kawhi around, I would be very, very afraid to take him.
   2105. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5656002)
trade machine: who says no?

NYK: kawhi leonard, kenneth faried
SAS: kristaps porzingis, tim hardaway, frank ntilikina, NYK 2018 1st round pick
DEN: courtney lee
   2106. KronicFatigue Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5656004)
It's just my own dimwitted opinion, but if Gregg Popovich were to start shopping Kawhi around, I would be very, very afraid to take him.


If you're the Spurs/Pop, you have to sell it like you're the one in the wrong. That you screwed up handling his injury and now the reason things aren't working out is personal. And I imagine Pop is cunning enough to pull that off.
   2107. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5656014)
Leonard said he wanted to be a Spur for life a month or two ago, which was after the initial reports of the fractured relationship came out. Since then it seems like Pop is upping the ante on his clear frustration, and it does seem more like a move may be best. But it seems like if that occurs, it'll be more Spurs wanting to move on rather than Kawhi.
   2108. Booey Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5656017)
Obviously we're all just speculating wildly here, but maybe Kawhi and the Spurs are basically playing a game of chicken at this point: Leonard won't come back until SAS guarantees the supermax deal (so he doesn't risk losing it to injury like IT probably did), and the Spurs won't promise it until he comes back and shows them he's still deserving of it (both with his health and his attitude/commitment to the team). It's like they're both holding each other hostage.
   2109. jmurph Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5656024)
NYK: kawhi leonard, kenneth faried
SAS: kristaps porzingis, tim hardaway, frank ntilikina, NYK 2018 1st round pick
DEN: courtney lee

So Kawhi is worth at least that much, I think, but the Knicks would, probably fairly, think that was a pretty big overpay given recent trades involving stars.
   2110. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 18, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5656085)
Last page, back when this was a Knicks-centric discussion, I realized I've been rooting against the Knicks longer (2001-current) than I was rooting for them (1989-2001). In theory, I still consider myself a Knicks fan (though no longer follow the NBA outside of this board) but I'll root against them until Dolan is gone. I had a moral conflict when there were rumors of JVG interviewing, since his resignation was the final straw for me.

For me it's supportive fan (1992-2004), abused lover hoping for spouse's death (2004-current).
   2111. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: April 18, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5656115)
Obviously we're all just speculating wildly here, but maybe Kawhi and the Spurs are basically playing a game of chicken at this point: Leonard won't come back until SAS guarantees the supermax deal (so he doesn't risk losing it to injury like IT probably did), and the Spurs won't promise it until he comes back and shows them he's still deserving of it (both with his health and his attitude/commitment to the team). It's like they're both holding each other hostage.


That's exactly what worries me, though. If the Spurs weren't worried Kawhi's injury is career altering, they would have guaranteed him the supermax months ago, right?
   2112. JJ1986 Posted: April 18, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5656119)
I thought there were reports that they were going to offer it months ago.
   2113. Booey Posted: April 18, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5656131)
I thought there were reports that they were going to offer it months ago.


That's what I thought I heard too, but as of now they still haven't offered it, have they? That might mean either:

A) They're really worried about his injury and are afraid to give such a franchise crippling commitment to a guy that might never be the same,

or

B) They're sick of his drama and his refusal to play and aren't sure they want to commit to him long term anymore, even if he's physically as good as ever.

Both scenarios look pretty bleak. There could also be plenty of other legit possibilities that we're not aware of, of course.
   2114. JJ1986 Posted: April 18, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5656134)
They can't technically offer it until he has 7 years service time from what I understand.
   2115. Booey Posted: April 18, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5656137)
Ah, gotcha. I wonder if the last few months have made them re-consider, though?
   2116. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 18, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5656142)
Kawhi Leonard must be the first player in US sports to hold out for contractual reasons while still getting paid. Impressive I guess.
   2117. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 18, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5656210)
I've never seen anything like the first five minutes of Pacers-Cavs. Never.
   2118. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 18, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5656214)
I've never seen anything like the first five minutes of Pacers-Cavs. Never.

Explain? I see that the Cavs have a big lead and the Pacers have only scored 3 points.
   2119. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 18, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5656216)
Lebron scored the first 13 points of the game by himself. It was Lebron 13, Pacers 0.
   2120. Fourth True Outcome Posted: April 18, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5656219)
I think Playoff LeBron might have woken up.
   2121. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 18, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5656231)
Did the Cavaliers play better defense?
   2122. SteveF Posted: April 18, 2018 at 08:11 PM (#5656251)
Did the Cavaliers play better defense?

Oladipo had 3 fouls and only played 8 minutes.
   2123. KronicFatigue Posted: April 18, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5656265)
Pops wife just died. Was she sick? Is he still going to coach?
   2124. tshipman Posted: April 18, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5656269)
Did the Cavaliers play better defense?


Pacers shot 62% from 2, but just 25% from 3
   2125. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5656274)
Pacers shot 62% from 2, but just 25% from 3

I get that you think it is just 3-point variance but I was hoping for a little bit more input than that. Did the Pacers make a lot of tough 2-point shots? Did they look better defensively?

On one hand, the Cavs have to reasonably happy that they have held the Pacers under 100 points for the first two games. On the other, LeBron scored 46 points and the rest of the Cavs scored 54. 41% shooting.

Zach Lowe's take:

Still in shock Oladipo missed that three. The Pacers just keep coming at you. That said, with the weird ways they matched on D, feel like CLE has some pretty easy adjustments next game. Surprised they didn't exploit more tonight. Got the W though
   2126. stevegamer Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:06 PM (#5656278)
I've never seen anything like the first five minutes of Pacers-Cavs. Never.


I've seen stuff like that a few times in organized games, but mostly in high school basketball. I was the varsity manager, so being the scorekeeper, you see stuff. When we had multiple teams on the road, I might have had a tripleheader.

Strangely it almost never happened in intramurals. Although those were organized by school and teams covered all grades, it was structured such that greater talent & size players weren't allowed in certain quarters. We had odd (I think it was old-style CBA) style scoring, where games were worth 5 points in standings, 1 per quarter won, and for the overall win.
   2127. Booey Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5656280)
Man, this game is making me go gray (er). Jazz up by 9 halfway through the 3rd. Thunder go on a 19-0 (!) run to take a 10 pt lead. Jazz answer back with an 18-3 run of their own to go back up by 5.
   2128. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5656284)
I don't like that call against Adams for him to foul out. I thought he went straight up.

Man, Adams is a huge human. He doesn't get crazy block numbers, but he's really a handful physically, even for someone like Gobert.
   2129. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5656286)
That's back to back calls in Utah's favor. Goes without saying that this is a huge game for Utah. I think this series is so close and OKC is the kind of team where if Westbrook is making his jumper you basically just lose that game, regardless of if it's at home. They need likely 2 games on the road in this series to win.
   2130. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:32 PM (#5656287)
Carmelo will go to his grave chucking.
   2131. tshipman Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5656288)
I get that you think it is just 3-point variance but I was hoping for a little bit more input than that. Did the Pacers make a lot of tough 2-point shots? Did they look better defensively?


Well, Pacers went just 4/12 on jumpshots outside the key, so that means that they went 31/44 on shots in the key and restricted area (70%). That's a pretty good indicator that the Cavs were playing garbage fire defense.

I mean, in general, if you give up 60% shooting from 2, you're playing bad defense. 2p shooting is *way* more stable. I'm sure it's possible, but it'd be exceptionally rare for a team to get lucky and shoot 60% from 2, particularly if they're taking 30+ attempts at the rim.
   2132. JC in DC Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5656290)
Man, sometimes Harden plays absolutely no defense at all. And it doesn't even seem to hurt the team.

[Edit: Minnesota is hard on the eyes.]
   2133. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5656291)
This may not be fair to the Pelicans, but the bracket really opened up for Golden State. San Antonio then the PORNO winner which is a noticeable step down from UTAH/OKC.
   2134. Booey Posted: April 18, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5656294)
That game made me happy. :-D

19/58 (33%) - including 0/14 in the 4th - from OKC's big 3 just ain't gonna get it done. Allowing 31 boards to Favors/Gobert probably doesn't help either.
   2135. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 18, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5656295)

Well, Pacers went just 4/12 on jumpshots outside the key, so that means that they went 31/44 on shots in the key and restricted area (70%). That's a pretty good indicator that the Cavs were playing garbage fire defense.


If the Pacers weren't shooting so well from the restricted area, why didn't they do that more? Are 44 shots in the key and restricted area a lot (serious question, I don't know)?

Both teams are scoring less, how much of this is reduced pace?

   2136. tshipman Posted: April 18, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5656308)
Are 44 shots in the key and restricted area a lot


Yes. That's 56% of Pacers shots coming inside of 10 feet. That would have led the league by a ton. The Pacers averaged 43% of their shots from inside, so that's a pretty sizeable increase.

Both teams are scoring less, how much of this is reduced pace?


A fair bit of it. Pacers/Cavs game had 94 possessions. The Kings, the slowest team in the league this year, averaged 94.9 possessions/game.
   2137. tshipman Posted: April 19, 2018 at 12:12 AM (#5656317)
How in the world do KAT and Butler combine for 15 FGA when Andrew Wiggins has 14?

If anyone would take Wiggins for free this offseason, I feel like it would make the Wolves noticeably better.
   2138. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:07 AM (#5656344)
Easy to blame Wiggins, but he wasn't their problem. They were remarkably uninterested last night. As I said, the Wolves were hard on the eyes.
   2139. The Good Face Posted: April 19, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5656404)
Man, Adams is a huge human. He doesn't get crazy block numbers, but he's really a handful physically, even for someone like Gobert.


Have you seen his sister?
   2140. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 19, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5656415)
They were remarkably uninterested last night.

Last time a Thibs team pulled that in the playoffs, the Bulls fired him a few days after they were eliminated.
   2141. jmurph Posted: April 19, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5656419)
Easy to blame Wiggins, but he wasn't their problem. They were remarkably uninterested last night. As I said, the Wolves were hard on the eyes.

I can't understand how they finished 4th in ORtg, it's honestly amazing. I guess Towns and Butler are just that good.

And speaking of Butler, we talked about this a bit a few weeks ago but here are the final numbers:
With Butler: 37-22, .627 winning percentage
Without him: 10-13, .435 winning percentage
   2142. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 19, 2018 at 10:58 AM (#5656421)
Minnesota's defense sucks, and guys like Wiggins and Towns don't always look super engaged there. Some of that I think is just they don't have good defensive instincts. Towns is also not a quick guy, and I think his size and lack of quickness will probably limit him from ever being a real plus on defense.

Wiggins most definitely is part of the problem on offense. Another large problem is Crawford and Rose. Those guys are chuckers, and always will be chuckers. They both average around 18 FGA per 36 minutes, which is absurd.

Thibs doesn't seem to know how to coach offense very well, and Teague is an ok player but I don't think of him very much as a floor general, he has a little 0-guard in him. This is all to say, offensively they're good because of free throw shooting, not turning the ball over, and the singular talents of Butler and Towns. But they can go through long stretches where it looks like they don't really have any sort of cohesive offensive plan, and can just piss possessions down the drain as a result.
   2143. . . . . . . Posted: April 19, 2018 at 11:21 AM (#5656438)
Man, Adams is a huge human. He doesn't get crazy block numbers, but he's really a handful physically, even for someone like Gobert.



Have you seen his sister?


It's not just his sister. Everyone in that family is massive, and it's a a massive family
   2144. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: April 19, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5656441)
I'm not sure Thibs knows how to coach defense very well, either, at this point in history.
   2145. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 19, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5656452)
Thibs doesn't seem to know how to coach offense very well

I think this is true, and it shows up in the playoffs; yet he's coached good offensive teams - as mentioned, MIN was 4th in ORtg this year, 10th last year; Bulls were 11th his last year in Chicago, 5th the strike shortened year (aka the year Rose first got hurt in the playoffs), and 11th his first year in Chicago (which was a jump from 27th the year before he got there). Some (a lot?) of that is the talent on hand, some is development of young players under him (Rose got better, Butler).

The common thing about his offenses - the good and the bad ones he had in Chicago - is that they're ugly as sin to watch and just aren't enjoyable.
   2146. The Good Face Posted: April 19, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5656464)
It's not just his sister. Everyone in that family is massive, and it's a a massive family


Yeah. The scary thing is Valerie is 6'4, which means those "short" women on the far left of the family photo are probably 5'10 or so. Those are some big people.
   2147. JJ1986 Posted: April 19, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5656466)
It must have been the '15 playoffs, but I remember watching the Bulls and thinking it looked like every other team had modernized their offense and Chicago hadn't. There was a lot of guys standing around, less movement off the ball and much less high pick-and-roll. Minnesota's offense looks better than that because they have guys who can make nice plays, but a lot of the times it looks like one guy is playing offense per possession. It doesn't help that their depth players aren't spot-up shooters or guys who fight to get open off the ball.
   2148. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: April 19, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5656495)
It doesn't help that their depth players aren't spot-up shooters or guys who fight to get open off the ball.

It's a badly put together team, poorly coached.
   2149. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 19, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5656535)
I'm rooting pretty damn hard for Toronto. I think their winning or even just making the Finals would be great for the league. There was a lot of debate on if they should lock in to being good but not a contender the last offseason or two, and to see them having made the jump mainly based on some improved play from Derozan, who also spoke out on depression which I respect from a professional athlete, and improved bench play and changing their offensive style but at the end of the day with the same main core I think should give hope to a lot of teams in the middle of the bell curve.
   2150. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: April 19, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5656543)
Pops isn't coaching Game 3. (RIP, Erin P.)
   2151. aberg Posted: April 19, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5656552)
It's a badly put together team, poorly coached.


And yet, the best thing we have had to root for in 14 years.

They were awful last night, both physically and mentally. The Rockets have been so physical with Towns that it has taken him out of the series in his own head. He's still pretty skinny and 22, so it's not the end of the world, but it's a real weakness. Butler is dealing with a bad knee and a bad wrist. He has no explosion and can't shoot. The fact that he's still somehow contributing is crazy. Houston is great and an especially bad matchup for a team with sub-par wing defense.

The team stupidly spent the MLE on Crawford, who is a gunner with bad shot selection who plays no D. That was a problem for the second unit, and then they doubled up with Rose and made it a gaping wound. They desperately need wings who can shoot threes, play defense, or both.

Still, they were 10th in SRS this year despite missing their best player for 20+ games. Towns and Wiggins are still both REALLY young. One of them is already really good. The other one is bad, but does enough things well that there is still hope. Nobody is as bad as they look in their worst games or as good as they look in their best games. Last night was one of those worst games.
   2152. aberg Posted: April 19, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5656560)
I'm rooting pretty damn hard for Toronto. I think their winning or even just making the Finals would be great for the league. There was a lot of debate on if they should lock in to being good but not a contender the last offseason or two, and to see them having made the jump mainly based on some improved play from Derozan, who also spoke out on depression which I respect from a professional athlete, and improved bench play and changing their offensive style but at the end of the day with the same main core I think should give hope to a lot of teams in the middle of the bell curve.


Agree with this. Toronto is likable. There are two other elements- I like that Casey has stuck around through good and bad, adapted continuously, and now reached a new peak. I enjoyed his brief stint as the Wolves coach and have rooted for him other since. I also like that they have augmented their team by drafting and developing well in mid or late first-round picks. Guys like Siakam, Poeltl, Wright, and Van Vleet are success stories that the FO and coaching staff deserves credit for.
   2153. Fourth True Outcome Posted: April 19, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5656561)
What an awful thing, and an awful time for it to happen. Regular season or offseason would make it easier for Pop to take a longer leave if he wants/needs it.

At the risk of immediately pivoting to how this affects basketball, this certainly puts a spin on how grumpy Pop has been about the Kawhi thing, and how prickly he's been with the press about the Spurs getting smoked in round 1. Easy to cut the guy some slack if he's been going through a personal crisis.

Edit: talking about Pop/Erin Popovich, of course.
   2154. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 19, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5656568)
The other one is bad, but does enough things well that there is still hope.

Not trying to be a dick, but what does Wiggins do well? I can't think of one thing much less multiple "things." Early in his career I would have said get to the line, but that's it.

EDIT: At the risk of immediately pivoting to how this affects basketball, this certainly puts a spin on how grumpy Pop has been about the Kawhi thing, and how prickly he's been with the press about the Spurs getting smoked in round 1. Easy to cut the guy some slack if he's been going through a personal crisis.

I had the same thought.
   2155. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: April 19, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5656607)
As did I. (Though it's also arguably unfair for me to have that filter as well.)
   2156. jmurph Posted: April 19, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5656611)
Eric Bledsoe, who has thus far been terrible in the Bucks-Celtics series, really really wants everyone to know that he doesn't know who Terry Rozier is.

Bledsoe, in 67 minutes: 80 ORtg, 119 Drtg
Rozier, in 78 minutes: 143 ORtg, 110 Drtg
   2157. Internet Commenter Posted: April 19, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5656614)
Minnesota regular season USG%:

- 25.1 Butler (59 GP)
- 25.0 Rose (9 GP)
- 23.9 Crawford (80 GP)
- 23.2 Wiggins (82 GP)
- 22.9 Towns (82 GP)

Minnesota regular season FGA:

- 14.5 Wiggins
- 11.5 Rose
- 10.0 Crawford
- 9.0 Towns
- 8.5 Butler

What Thibs is doing is flat-out malpractice.
   2158. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 19, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5656616)
Agree on TOR and Pops.
   2159. The Good Face Posted: April 19, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5656619)
I'm rooting pretty damn hard for Toronto. I think their winning or even just making the Finals would be great for the league. There was a lot of debate on if they should lock in to being good but not a contender the last offseason or two, and to see them having made the jump mainly based on some improved play from Derozan, who also spoke out on depression which I respect from a professional athlete, and improved bench play and changing their offensive style but at the end of the day with the same main core I think should give hope to a lot of teams in the middle of the bell curve.


This is a good take and I'll sign onto it as well.
   2160. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 19, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5656633)
I can tell I'm completely out of touch with basketball as a sport (still fascinating source of narratives and gifs), because without knowing Thibodeau's reputation I would have no idea if the numbers in 2157 are
A) normal
B) abnormal
C) high
D) low
E) good
F) bad

   2161. JJ1986 Posted: April 19, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5656636)
Minnesota regular season FGA:

- 14.5 Wiggins
- 11.5 Rose
- 10.0 Crawford
- 9.0 Towns
- 8.5 Butler


Is this with some specific lineup combos? Towns was at 14.3 FGA per game and 14.5 per 36 minutes. Butler 15.6 and 15.3.
   2162. jmurph Posted: April 19, 2018 at 03:19 PM (#5656637)
I can tell I'm completely out of touch with basketball as a sport (still fascinating source of narratives and gifs), because without knowing Thibodeau's reputation I would have no idea if the numbers in 2157 are

I think the most important takeaway is that Towns, a pretty serious offensive talent, doesn't get nearly enough damn shots.

EDIT: JJ I think those were actually playoff FGA. Just a typo?
   2163. Booey Posted: April 19, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5656654)
#2160 - It's basically just showing that the Wolves 2 best players are only 4th and 5th on the team in shot attempts. A properly designed offense should feature them at #1 and #2.

It's never a good sign when bad role players are taking more shots than your All Stars.
   2164. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: April 19, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5656670)
I'm rooting pretty damn hard for Toronto. I think their winning or even just making the Finals would be great for the league. There was a lot of debate on if they should lock in to being good but not a contender the last offseason or two, and to see them having made the jump mainly based on some improved play from Derozan, who also spoke out on depression which I respect from a professional athlete, and improved bench play and changing their offensive style but at the end of the day with the same main core I think should give hope to a lot of teams in the middle of the bell curve.

I'll sign on to this. I also find them a very likeable group. And I've always liked Casey and am glad they didn't bail on him or the team.
   2165. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 19, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5656672)
Regarding Butler and his shots ... early in the season he purposefully laid back on offense, played defense and tried to fit in, then after a bit he asserted himself as the alpha dog and did more to take over. This is not an excuse for Thibs coaching, but some of the Butler usage/shots was early in the season and by his choice. And recently of course he is injured.

Anyway my point is the full season numbers have a couple asterisks that might (maybe) mitigate some of this. Of course I am still not super pleased with Thibs or Wiggins or KAT's performance last game. Sigh.
   2166. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: April 19, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5656676)
And yet, the best thing we have had to root for in 14 years.

Sure. I'm no big fan of counterfactuals, but how good would they be with Butler and none of the other personnel moves from POBO Thibs:

Rubio/Wiggins/Butler/Dieng/Towns is worse than Teague/Wiggins/Butler/Gibson/Towns, but isn't that more to do with Gibson being way better than expected than anything else?

I guess what I'm saying is, yes, by all means, add Jimmy Butler! But let's not pretend that the team's improvement has much to do with Thib's antediluvian offence or his continued inability to improve the team's defence.
   2167. aberg Posted: April 19, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5656682)
Not trying to be a dick, but what does Wiggins do well? I can't think of one thing much less multiple "things." Early in his career I would have said get to the line, but that's it.


Here are a few things that Wiggins does well:
1. He is an exceptional transition player. He can go 1-on-2 and get a basket almost every time because he is so insanely athletic.
2. He's very good in the post. Other teams usually put a guard on him so a bigger guy can guard Butler. He is strong and has such a long wingspan that he has a pretty easy time finishing over them (he doesn't do this, or the plays aren't called, enough).
3. I mentioned this before, but it still stands out to me: I have never seen a guy better at defending a fast break by himself. He's so quick and long that teams actually end up getting zero points on 2-on-1s against him quite often. It's a strange and overly specific trait, but I feel like the things that make him good at that can and should translate.

Also, there are several areas where he HAS improved. He is a much better on-ball defender now than he has been up to this point in his career. He has gone from being a bad ball-handler and passer to being an ok one. He remains a bad decision-maker- he's way too willing to charge into double teams and cough up the ball, try to make an impossible pass, or shoot bad shots (unnecessary post fadeaways, step-back long twos, and early clock pull-ups are all common). The reputation of laziness comes from his tendency to lose focus in team defense schemes. It seems like he's asleep because he gets focused on his own guy and misses the need to help on the primary action.

When I say that there's a good player underneath the bad habits, I'm mainly referring to physical skills. He is so long, fast, and springy that he should be decent just on athleticism alone. He has very good form on his shot, and has streaks where he shoots a very high percentage from all over the floor. I almost think they would be better off trying to start from scratch with his approach to the game because the things he does do not fit his skills.
   2168. aberg Posted: April 19, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5656684)
Minnesota regular season FGA:

- 14.5 Wiggins
- 11.5 Rose
- 10.0 Crawford
- 9.0 Towns
- 8.5 Butler


This is incorrect. Those are postseason FGA numbers (which is also why they all end in .5 or .0). Again, Butler is playing with 2 injuries. I don't have an excuse for Towns, but for those who have watched the games, he has been bad enough that I wouldn't particularly want him shooting a lot more.
   2169. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: April 19, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5656689)
I mean, regular season, Towns is 3rd in FGA (behind Wiggins and Butler) but fifth in USG. Even without Rose, he's fourth. That's insane to me.
   2170. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 19, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5656739)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania 4:22 PM - 19 Apr 2018

76ers star Joel Embiid is expected to play in Game 3 against the Heat tonight, barring setback -- likely with mask and goggles.
   2171. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: April 19, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5656746)
Also agree on the Toronto take; very easy to root for as a league narrative and as a group of guys.
   2172. aberg Posted: April 19, 2018 at 06:17 PM (#5656755)
I mean, regular season, Towns is 3rd in FGA (behind Wiggins and Butler) but fifth in USG. Even without Rose, he's fourth. That's insane to me.


Towns, Butler, and Wiggins are all close in regular season USG. I'd rather see Wiggins a little lower, but it's not wildly out of line. Crawford is ahead of both Towns and Wiggins, and that's just batty. No defense for that. Crawford should never have been signed and should not be brought back next year.
   2173. Internet Commenter Posted: April 19, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5656757)
This is incorrect. Those are postseason FGA numbers (which is also why they all end in .5 or .0). Again, Butler is playing with 2 injuries. I don't have an excuse for Towns, but for those who have watched the games, he has been bad enough that I wouldn't particularly want him shooting a lot more.

Good catch (bouncing between tabs). Corrected version:

- 15.9 Wiggins
- 15.6 Butler
- 14.3 Towns
- 11.3 Teague
- 9.3 Crawford

It boggles my mind that Wiggins and his .438/.331/.643 splits is getting that many shots when you had Towns at .545/.421/.858 this year.

By TS%:

- 64.5 Towns
- 59.0 Butler
- 50.7 Rose
- 50.5 Wiggins

Wiggins was as bad as a dude who should be playing ball in China. Marqueese Chriss and Dragan Bender had better TS% than Wiggins this year! Imagine if Booker was the third option on the Suns, so they could prioritze Chriss. Stuff like this drives me nuts ever since I watched Quentin Richardson spend a season raining bricks with the Suns while Nash was the fifth option. I'm super-pessimistic on Wiggins in general, so even the development argument isn't persuasive to me at this point.
   2174. aberg Posted: April 19, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5656779)
I'm super-pessimistic on Wiggins in general, so even the development argument isn't persuasive to me at this point.


It's a fair point. I don't know if he will get better or if this is all that there is. If I had to bet, I would bet that he never becomes a star. Still, I don't know and I am emotionally invested in him getting better, so I'm not going to rush to judgment. I guess that's called being a fan.
   2175. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 19, 2018 at 07:54 PM (#5656796)
wade should be ejected. that's a flagrant 2. wade tried to pull anderson's shoulder out of his socket. clear and indisputable intent to injure.


   2176. PJ Martinez Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5656799)
I just watched the replay. Did Wade really not get even a flagrant 1? That's absurd, if so -- it was egregious, even putting his history (which is not good) aside. (I probably wouldn't have ejected him, though.)
   2177. SteveF Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5656803)
That was pretty bad. It wasn't even in the course of a basketball play, like a smack to the head on a drive.

I think it is actually flagrant 2 worthy given how outside the course of play it is.
   2178. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5656804)
wade should be ejected. that's a flagrant 2. wade tried to pull anderson's shoulder out of his socket. clear and indisputable intent to injure.


more.

Hey, imagine how us Bulls fans felt playing both Lebron and Wade in a series, talk about your unfriendly whistle.
   2179. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:41 PM (#5656810)
Agree that should've been a flagrant two. And I can't believe the commentators didn't notice that second travel. Sometimes I hate the current version of bball.
   2180. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5656812)
How many people are even at this game?
   2181. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: April 19, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5656815)
Winslow also intentionally stepped on Embiid's goggles. I don't get how that's not at least a technical.
   2182. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5656821)
Winslow also intentionally stepped on Embiid's goggles. I don't get how that's not at least a technical.
it's the james comey school of refereeing. all you do is call balls and strikes, but damned if anyone else can figure out where the plate is.
   2183. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5656825)
Wade is such a big game player.
   2184. tshipman Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5656826)
I have no idea what is continuation or not in the NBA.

That last foul on McConnell was not given continuation all year, but prior to this year, would have been automatic continuation.

What are the rules? Are they changed in the playoffs?
   2185. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5656829)
2184: I'm not quite as definitive about it, but I wondered if the refs would give him the bucket, when before this year that would've been automatic.
   2186. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5656831)
my best guess at what's going on with this series:

the referees ####### suck.

also: the sixers are burning a ton of energy on offense due to the heat's constant clutching and grabbing and striking (which is still illegal, by the way, not that anyone bothered to tell the refs these last two gamees), and they don't have the same energy on the defensive end.
   2187. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5656832)
I LOVE Embiid.
   2188. PJ Martinez Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5656833)
Woj: "Detroit Pistons owner Tom Gores and President/Coach Stan Van Gundy will meet next week to discuss Van Gundy's future, league sources tell ESPN. Van Gundy has one year left on his contract. There had been an initial plan to meet late this week."
   2189. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5656835)
and there's another flagrant that won't get called on the heat. winslow made no attempt to play the ball, but damned if frank grimes is gonna blow the whistle.
   2190. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5656837)
Nah, STIGGLES. The refs are just being refs. This is a great game, and Winslow decided to play tonight.
   2191. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5656838)
Any time Kane Fitzgerald is one of the refs the reffing will suck.

EDIT: But I too have no idea where exactly there was a flagrant on Winslow. That's a pretty standard foul.
   2192. JC in DC Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5656840)
STIGGLES: Embiid has thrown a couple of elbows and gotten away with them. (Why am I asking you to see this differently?)
   2193. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5656842)
As great as Simmons and Embiid are, Whiteside has been the best Sixers player tonight.
   2194. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5656849)
EDIT: But I too have no idea where exactly there was a flagrant on Winslow. That's a pretty standard foul.
you're not allowed to just wrap guys up like that anymore. the NBA changed the rule to make that a flagrant foul because it's a dangerous play.
STIGGLES: Embiid has thrown a couple of elbows and gotten away with them. (Why am I asking you to see this differently?)

if embiid is elbowing heat players seven or eight times every possession, the refs should call one or two of them every other quarter.
   2195. PJ Martinez Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5656854)
you're not allowed to just wrap guys up like that anymore.

It still happens all the time, and is called a normal foul.
   2196. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5656859)
Playoff Anthony Davis is ####### amazing. As is Regular Season Anthony Davis. Basically, Anthony Davis is really good. That's what I'm saying here.
   2197. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5656861)
Playoff Anthony Davis is ####### amazing. As is Regular Season Anthony Davis. Basically, Anthony Davis is really good. That's what I'm saying here.

That's top notch analysis.
   2198. tshipman Posted: April 19, 2018 at 09:59 PM (#5656863)
Playoff Anthony Davis is ####### amazing. As is Regular Season Anthony Davis. Basically, Anthony Davis is really good. That's what I'm saying here.


AD at center is such a huge advantage against literally every playoff team. No one has a guy who can match up two-way.
   2199. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 19, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5656865)
I can understand stiggles being frustrated. Miami is playing on the edge of physical and dirty.

That's going to happen. It's going to happen next series too, probably, if they advance. Teams are physical in the playoffs. This is also a sign of respect. Miami is a defensive team and knows they can't out talent Philly. Undergunned teams are gonna try to play physical on you.

You know, Jrue Holiday looks like the second best player in this series. Ain't that some ####.
   2200. tshipman Posted: April 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5656871)
Kyle Anderson is just egregiously fouling Durant every time down the court and daring the refs to call it.
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