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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 4660 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2401. tshipman Posted: April 22, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5658067)
This is your pretty classic 3-0 game 4 so far.

The team down in the series comes out with good intensity and plays physical. Sometimes it lasts the whole game, sometimes it peters out.
   2402. sardonic Posted: April 22, 2018 at 04:06 PM (#5658068)
SAS got frustrated
frustration boiled over and the relationship soured beyond repair


This is what would be surprising to me. If Pop can mend fences with LaMarcus Aldridge, I'd be surprised if things were unmendable with Kawhi. Plus, if the supermax is such a big deal, he can only get that from the Spurs. Tens of millions of extra dollars have a way of smoothing over frustrations. Based on that, if the parties part ways, to me it signals more that the Spurs weren't willing to go into supermax territory, and since they know more than anyone else, that's where the red flag would come from for me.
   2403. tshipman Posted: April 22, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5658076)
Hate the way the Spurs arena OPS team pipes in music when the Spurs are on offense. I get why ... but it's low-rent. Reminds me of the Kings.

Otherwise a very good arena ops group, too.
   2404. tshipman Posted: April 22, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5658087)
Spurs getting that home cooking whistle. Guess it's the gentleman's sweep instead.
   2405. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5658106)
This is what would be surprising to me. If Pop can mend fences with LaMarcus Aldridge, I'd be surprised if things were unmendable with Kawhi. Plus, if the supermax is such a big deal, he can only get that from the Spurs. Tens of millions of extra dollars have a way of smoothing over frustrations. Based on that, if the parties part ways, to me it signals more that the Spurs weren't willing to go into supermax territory, and since they know more than anyone else, that's where the red flag would come from for me.

a key difference between the aldridge and kawhi situations is that kawhi has positive trade value and aldridge very likely did not.
   2406. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5658125)
i feel like refs shouldn't be able to call technical fouls on individual players when they're on the bench.

change the rule to give the 'T' to the coach for failing to control his players, or eject the player (and the coach) if there's an egregious violation.
   2407. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5658128)
playing [ben simmons] at point guard is like using a sledgehammer to fluff pillows, and he turned the Miami defense into a mound of feathers on Saturday.

link
   2408. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5658133)
What happens when they're not on the bench though?
   2409. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5658136)
THE BANK IS OPEN ON SUNDAY BOYOS
   2410. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5658141)
It is just a consolation, but it makes me happy the Spurs are gonna win today.
   2411. tshipman Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5658146)
Btw: this is your classic 3p variance game also.

Spurs: 15/28
Warriors: 7/28

Edit: including noted sharpshooters LaMarcus Aldridge, Dejounte Murray and Pau Gasol combining for 7/8 from 3.
   2412. sardonic Posted: April 22, 2018 at 05:56 PM (#5658149)
Without Curry the Warriors really need Klay Thompson to step up on offense, and 4-16 with 12 points from Klay isn't getting it done. He had decent looks that I'd expect him to make, and the Spurs hit some tough shots. Good game to the Spurs.
   2413. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: April 22, 2018 at 06:22 PM (#5658166)
As a disinterested party I would find it absolutely fascinating for Fultz to be traded to Popovich's team. Though Pop is doubtless smart enough that he would be a sweetener, not the centerpiece.
   2414. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5658170)
Serge Ibaka is only 28. He used to be good, too.
   2415. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5658173)
My confidence is waivering in Toronto, I've got to say. They are struggling to stay in front of their man on defense. Wall specifically. I mean, I know Wall is good, but he's in the lane whenever he wants. Edit: I also don't like how tight they're calling this game.
   2416. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5658180)
Toronto is playing with a bit more edge this half. I do like Toronto playing this big guy Siakam guarding Wall. He looks pretty darn athletic and is sagging off but still was able to use his length to block a jump shot. Also, you kind want Wall to just take a bunch of jump shots anyways.
   2417. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5658183)
I'd rather have Saric than Fultz.
   2418. . . . . . . Posted: April 22, 2018 at 07:04 PM (#5658189)
Serge Ibaka is only 28.


And my wife only weighs 110 lbs.
   2419. PJ Martinez Posted: April 22, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5658203)
I think the Fultz trade made it pretty hard for Philly to outbid Boston for Kawhi if he goes on the market, unless that Los Angeles pick ends up at no. 1 (in which case Philly might be reluctant to deal it anyway). Maybe it's my Boston myopia, but I would think that Tatum, Brown, and the 2019 Kings pick could each have more value than any one asset that Philly might give up (Fultz, Saric, Covington, the 10th pick in 2018). As additional sweeteners, Rozier has some positive trade value, and Smart maybe has a little as well.

Do non-Philly/non-Boston fans see this differently?
   2420. tshipman Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:01 PM (#5658211)
Do non-Philly/non-Boston fans see this differently?


I think that generally in the NBA, players dictate where they want to play.
   2421. JJ1986 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:07 PM (#5658214)
Is there reason to think the Spurs are particularly good at trading? They mostly don't do it; the George Hill trade was great only because they got Leonard and I don't really see any fleecings of other teams.
   2422. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:35 PM (#5658218)
Man, Toronto just sucks.
   2423. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:37 PM (#5658219)
Raptors gonna Raptor.
   2424. TFTIO is a very stable genius Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:41 PM (#5658221)
Jesus Haploid Christ, Toronto.
   2425. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5658222)
I don't watch them much, but man, they play so stupid and careless. I really like Casey (I think), but I can't get over how they just pissed this game away.
   2426. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:44 PM (#5658223)
I didn't watch the Celtics game - anything meaningful happen there?
   2427. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5658224)
Oh, and I know they very well might lose, but the East is just such a mess that is there any question Philly has a great chance to make the finals? All these teams look pretty flawed.
   2428. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5658226)
Thoughts on the Toronto/Washington game.

- The pbp announcer is really, really bad. He doesn't understand basketball and he can't tell what's happening on the court.
- The refs were awful. There were some really clear calls that were missed. I'm not sure it decided the game, but it was hard to watch calls right under the ref's face were being missed. DeRozan was hammered around the 4 minute mark and it wasn't called.
- Contenders win games like this. The Raptors really sucked late. They weren't running much in the way of offense. Lowry was not able to get separation on his drives, DeRozan was taking a bunch of step backs. The Raptors bigs were very bad. Ibaka isn't confident in his shot which helped lead to 4 turnovers, Val... is awful defensively.
- Lowry is getting massively outplayed by John Wall. I expect that to continue throughout this series.

You just look at talent on the court and Washington looks just as good at least like 1-7. It's kind of disappointing. Not just for later rounds, but I'm legitimately worried about Toronto getting out of this series. There is no reason to think they are going to figure out how to guard Wall unless Lowry loses about 20 pounds.
   2429. TFTIO is a very stable genius Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5658228)
What a dogshit performance.
   2430. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5658229)
I worry about being too hot-takey here, but if Embiid is healthy the rest of the playoffs I look at Philadelphia as the clear favorite to come out of the East. Is there any reason we wouldn't expect Ben Simmons to eat Playoff Lowry's lunch? Embiid would destroy the Toronto bigs. Ibaka would be wandering around looking for his keys.
   2431. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5658230)
I agree, Spicey, both with the analysis, and the concern about being too "hot-takey." If pressed, I'd still bet on LBJ, but Philly's looking awfully good right now.

When did Lowry get so fat? What a slob. Get in shape.
   2432. maccoach57 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5658231)
That is hot-takey to a degree, but legit to a degree as well. I like Toronto--Ujiri, Casey, a lot of their players. The two teams I root for in the East are TOR and WAS. But I was a Toronto skeptic heading in, and I still am. That said, even in the East, that would be a quick climb for Philadelphia, and I could see Toronto slogging to the Finals while losing 7-8 intraconference playoff games. And yes, Washington is a pretty good team 1-5.
   2433. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5658232)
My big take is the Finals is definitely going to be either a sweep or, as tshipman put it, a gentleman's sweep.
   2434. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5658234)
I'm so confused as to what you all consider fat. Lowry hasn't been fat in a while and his career's been somewhat disappointing but John Wall was/is one of the fastest men ever with a basketball in his hands.
   2435. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5658235)
I love that JR takes and makes that. I've been shocked at how many guys have been protecting their FG% in the playoffs in that spot this year. Reporters should make a bigger deal out of it.
   2436. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5658236)
I consider Kyle Lowry fat. I just watched him play. He doesn't look remotely fit. He looks heavy. It's not about John Wall blowing past him, but about him being fat.
   2437. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5658240)
Lowry ain't fat compared to some random dude on the street, but he's an NBA point guard. A guy who has been for the last few years on the edge of all-NBA. I do hold him to a different standard than Jared Dudley or some random guy in Wisconsin. And I do think his lack of wiggle is a big part of his playoff struggles. I realize his game has always been a muscular point guard but I think he can do that with a bit more bounce.

I'm trying to figure out what Toronto's gameplan should be right now and I'm struggling a bit. On both sides. I guess keep having Derozan drive the ball, that worked well and he'll probably shoot better. On defense I think I'd almost look at trying to reverse stagger his minutes with Wall. It's tricky because they don't have a backup PG right now, so they do really struggle to get into sets without him. I do think defensively they should look at doing something where they put an athletic wing on him, like Siakam. I'd maybe even go really exaggerated hanging off of him, almost but not quite Bogut/Tony Allen levels.
   2438. tshipman Posted: April 22, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5658241)
I worry about being too hot-takey here, but if Embiid is healthy the rest of the playoffs I look at Philadelphia as the clear favorite to come out of the East. Is there any reason we wouldn't expect Ben Simmons to eat Playoff Lowry's lunch? Embiid would destroy the Toronto bigs. Ibaka would be wandering around looking for his keys.


The losses have been bad, but I think Toronto should still be the favorite. Philly's only up 3-1.

I get the playoffs are more important, but we should still weight 82 more than 4.
   2439. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:12 PM (#5658250)
A fan is heckling Lue's attire. He's talking back to them actually: "It's a new fashion. You wouldn't know that. You live in Indiana." #CavsPacers


....

Cavs need to stop making these unadjustments at halftime.
   2440. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5658251)
Any combination of Love, Korver, and Calderon makes it nearly impossible for the Cavaliers to play adequate offense.
   2441. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5658254)
One disturbing trend I have seen so far this series is that the Cavaliers have been unable to step on Indiana's neck. They have had big leads in the last three games and haven't been able to put the Pacers away.
   2442. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5658258)
Cavs are gassed.
   2443. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5658261)
Larry Nance has been awful.
   2444. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5658266)
LeBron looks tired.
   2445. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:47 PM (#5658267)
Famous last words, but I officially have reached the point in this series where I just straight up think Indiana is better than Cleveland.
   2446. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5658268)
Yeah, IND is better, but CLE has LeBron, but LeBron has nothing left in the tank.
   2447. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:50 PM (#5658270)
Honestly, the Cavaliers don't have anyone other than LeBron that they can run offense through. That last possession which involved Clarkson dribbling the ball for 20 seconds than throwing up a terrible shot just isn't good enough. LeBron was just sitting out on the three point line. I think that's just fatigue.
   2448. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5658271)
When did Lowry get so fat? What a slob. Get in shape.
even going back to high school, lowry's been known to, uh, ... retain water.
I get the playoffs are more important, but we should still weight 82 more than 4.
the sixers are not the same team they were for 82 games, and i'm not even talking about simmons or embiid.

their biggest flaws this year were turnover rate, committing fouls and bench scoring. those first two improved steadily through the season (this series vs. MIA notwithstanding). the third flaw was turned into a strength by the post-deadline additions of belinelli and ilyasova (and fultz).
That is hot-takey to a degree, but legit to a degree as well. I like Toronto--Ujiri, Casey, a lot of their players. The two teams I root for in the East are TOR and WAS. But I was a Toronto skeptic heading in, and I still am. That said, even in the East, that would be a quick climb for Philadelphia, and I could see Toronto slogging to the Finals while losing 7-8 intraconference playoff games. And yes, Washington is a pretty good team 1-5.

if the sixers don't turn the ball over, they're damn near unbeatable.
if the sixers are making 3s, they're damn near unbeatable.
if the sixers turn the ball over and miss a ton of 3s, they can steal beat you on defense, on the glass and in the paint.

   2449. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:02 PM (#5658272)
Korver saving the Cavs season.

Nothing I hate more in the playoffs than role players turning down open 3s. Young just did that.

Nice finish from LeBron and Korver.

I really don't like that timeout grant to LeBron.
   2450. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:05 PM (#5658273)
LeBron goes back to the well to find something when I didn't think he had anything left.

I don't think the Cavs can beat Philly even if they beat Indiana.
   2451. mike f Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:08 PM (#5658274)
That TO was dubious and Green was setting egregiously illegal screens.
   2452. JC in DC Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:09 PM (#5658275)
Oladipo's got to hit some shots. That's the killer.
   2453. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5658277)
I'm really hoping Jeff Green gets a T there because #### him and his career.
   2454. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5658278)
Am I wrong that those look fouls on the jump ball?

Huge call if this is a flagrant.
   2455. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5658279)
I'd rather have Saric than Fultz.

i think i agree, but fultz showed the ability to get anywhere he wants off the dribble this season. that's hard to ignore.
I think the Fultz trade made it pretty hard for Philly to outbid Boston for Kawhi if he goes on the market, unless that Los Angeles pick ends up at no. 1 (in which case Philly might be reluctant to deal it anyway). Maybe it's my Boston myopia, but I would think that Tatum, Brown, and the 2019 Kings pick could each have more value than any one asset that Philly might give up (Fultz, Saric, Covington, the 10th pick in 2018). As additional sweeteners, Rozier has some positive trade value, and Smart maybe has a little as well.

Do non-Philly/non-Boston fans see this differently?

noone's ever made a mistake by trading with danny ainge.
   2456. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:17 PM (#5658281)
I'm confused. I saw a ref call that a jump ball. I mean, I'm ok with that being called a foul but I didn't think that was something you can change on review.
   2457. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5658283)
I'm confused. I saw a ref call that a jump ball. I mean, I'm ok with that being called a foul but I didn't think that was something you can change on review.

Yeah, I didn't agree with the call that it was jump ball as I thought that was foul but didn't think you could change a jump ball to a foul.
   2458. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:21 PM (#5658284)
Am I wrong that those look fouls on the jump ball?
the lebron one was debatable, but i'd lean towards calling a foul on cicada.

the jeff green one was clearly a foul. cicada went over green's back to grab the ball and the continuation should have negated the jump ball, even if the original call was missed.
   2459. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:22 PM (#5658285)
Yeah, I didn't agree with the call that it was jump ball as I thought that was foul but didn't think you could change a jump ball to a foul.
the flagrant foul overrides the jump ball.

it's 2 FTs and possession.


nevermind. they just called a regular foul, not a flagrant.
   2460. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5658286)
[2456] One ref called a jump and the other called a foul.
   2461. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 22, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5658287)
[2456] One ref called a jump and the other called a foul.

Yeah, that's what I thought happened.
   2462. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 23, 2018 at 01:18 AM (#5658297)
   2463. jmurph Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5658363)
I really don't like that timeout grant to LeBron.

Do you not like it because he literally didn't have a hand on the ball? What a ####### call that was.

I can't believe they sucked me in but I'm genuinely surprised the Raptors are Raptoring again. What a disappointment the East playoffs have been so far. I now agree with everyone else's hot takes about the Sixers, and I'm starting to think they're the only team in the conference with a shot at taking even a game in the Finals.
   2464. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:53 AM (#5658373)
I can't believe they sucked me in but I'm genuinely surprised the Raptors are Raptoring again. What a disappointment the East playoffs have been so far. I now agree with everyone else's hot takes about the Sixers, and I'm starting to think they're the only team in the conference with a shot at taking even a game in the Finals.

To be fair, Golden State lost a game to the Spurs who are almost certainly the worst team in the West at this point and probably down with the worst East teams - and there's still question on when Curry comes back, though the clips they showed of him warming up make me think he'll be ready for the conference finals at least. And Houston is struggling way more than they should be with Minnesota.
   2465. jmurph Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5658382)
Eh I was kind of not a believer in Houston. I mean obviously they should be crushing Minnesota, don't get me wrong, but I thought the Warriors would handle them comfortably if they met in the conference finals and I still think that.

I'm inclined to give Golden State a pass as long as they finish the Spurs in 5. Teams often seem to let their guard down and blow the sweep.
   2466. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5658386)
Form 5 Dimes this morning series odds:

Raptors -325
Bucks +295

Celtics -115
Bucks +105

76ers -7350
Heat +4425

Cavs -330
Pacers +300

Rockets -2750
Wolves +2050

Warriors -12100
Spurs +7050

Jazz -325
Thunder +295

Eastern Conference
Raptors +165
Cavs +227
76ers +240

Western Conference
Warriors -119
Rockets +140

Championship
Warriors +108
Rockets +238
Raptors +900
Cavs +1150
76ers +1200
   2467. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: April 23, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5658393)
The postgame rhetoric around Game 4 of GSW-SAS is kind of funny to me. Usually in this situation the winning team down 3-0 is like "taking it one game at a time, why not us, etc etc" and the losing team is like "we need to come out with focus in game 5".

But here it felt like the Spurs were like "happy to just get one, we are at peace with the fact that we will lose game 5" and the Warriors were like "hey, they deserve one, really happy for those guys, no big deal for us".

I don't know if it is just the high level of respect these teams have for each other, or that there are lots of vets on both sides who have accomplished a lot, or if it's Erin Popovich's death, but it was so chill after the game.
   2468. jmurph Posted: April 23, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5658410)
Jaylen Brown has shown good growth, but still gets assisted on the majority of his shots. 96% of his shot attempts come within 6 seconds. He's generated just 46 3pers, and can't run a pick and roll.

I think the clear flaw in Brown's game at this point- the thing at the root of all of these points in the above quote- is his handle. He'll flash it a couple of times a game but it's not nearly consistent enough. If he gets to the point where he can more consistently beat people off the dribble, and is better at creating space to get shots, I think he has legitimate star potential. I'm more optimistic about that than I was previously, though, for sure.
   2469. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 23, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5658455)
wait...what?

Chris Sheridan @sheridanhoops
Due to an extraordinary set of circumstances related to my previous tweet, I have submitted a letter of resignation to NJ.com. I plan to be back on the #NBA beat in the near future. Still believe #Sixers are bound for #NBA Finals, and will become a dynasty.
   2470. maccoach57 Posted: April 23, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5658462)
With no offense intended to anyone, I am remembering Joe C's words from a a couple of years ago about reacting to whatever just happened in a playoff series in the most recent game. I see the points about Houston and Toronto, but both teams could easily take the next two games by double digits and what happened that last 48 hours could be a blip.

That said, I remain a Toronto skeptic and my money is still pretty firmly on Golden State, not Houston, if Curry comes back.

In the East, I had thought Cleveland, but I am less sure now. James is playing more or less every minute, this is the first round, and they are locked up with Indiana. I think my money would be on Toronto, with 7-9 conference losses before they get there.
   2471. PJ Martinez Posted: April 23, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5658487)
The previous tweet mentioned by Sheridan in 2469: "To my readers: I am taking a few days off to deal with a family emergency. I will be back on the job Monday."
   2472. jmurph Posted: April 23, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5658495)
I'm 100% guilty of the overreacting described in 2470, but I think the Toronto point is that we were hoping to see something different from them this year, and it's not looking that way so far. But yeah to your point, it could change quickly.
   2473. aberg Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5658569)
Eh I was kind of not a believer in Houston. I mean obviously they should be crushing Minnesota, don't get me wrong, but I thought the Warriors would handle them comfortably if they met in the conference finals and I still think that.


Keep in mind that the Wolves with Butler were basically a 53-ish win team. Even if it takes Houston 6 games and they end up with 2 blowouts, 2 close wins, and 2 losses, I think that's an ok outcome for them. If they beat a 50+ win team in that fashion in round 2, it would seem right on schedule.
   2474. Booey Posted: April 23, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5658598)
If they beat a 50+ win team in that fashion in round 2, it would seem right on schedule.


Well, technically they're only going to get a 48 win team in the next round, regardless of their opponent...

But the Jazz are 31-7 in their last 38 (including playoffs), which is a 67 win pace. So Houston should be slight underdogs in the 2nd round. :-D
   2475. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 23, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5658700)
the passion of the process:

report on sam hinkie's hiring from the AP, via ESPN:
PHILADELPHIA -- Sam Hinkie wants the 76ers to use the Moneyball-type of thinking popularized in baseball to build a championship team in Philadelphia.

Hinkie can crunch the numbers using any formula he'd like -- he'd find the Sixers were pretty awful this season.

"I'm just trying to use information to make decisions," Hinkie said. "I think some people move along quickly and others don't. That's OK."

Bynum is one of six free agents for the Sixers, who are devoid of any real assets outside of Holiday.

"Philadelphia will realize over time what an important acquisition they have made."
from spike eskin:
What we know about Sam Hinkie, by and large, is what other people tell us.

if Hinkie chooses the “tear it down and build through the draft” method of rebuilding the team, it could be years before we figure out if the moves he makes are the proper ones. Even then, it’s an inexact science, and even if Hinkie makes all the right moves, there’s a real chance the Sixers may never compete for a title while he’s with the team.

I’m sure there is a fair criticism of Hinkie, but I’ve yet to read or hear one.

Henry Abbot, of ESPN’s True Hoop, had this to say about Hinkie:
...Some teams shoot from the hip. Rest assured, under Hinkie, the Sixers will adhere to well-honed long-term strategy. Assuming Hinkie is empowered to follow his principled approach, it would make no sense to bet against them as they wrestle with big decisions like whom to hire as head coach, and whether or not to retain the injured Andrew Bynum.


For those who believe (for one reason or another) that Hinkie only uses to numbers to make decisions, an article about Hinkie from Berry Trammel in 2008 seems to indicate quite the opposite:
But Hinkie doesn’t claim those stats are the gospel. They are just one more piece to a complicated puzzle, and when you’re dealing with players whose multi-million dollar contracts can make or break a franchise, every morsel of information helps.

While watching the likes of Oklahoma’s Blake Griffin and Gonzaga’s Jeremy Pargo, here’s what Hinkie looked for.

Does he talk to teammates? Does he talk to the crowd? Does he yell back at his coach? Does his coach baby him, and if so why? If he dunks off a lob, is it because the pass was perfect, or the play was a great setup, or did the defense go to sleep, or is the guy athletic enough to dunk without any of the above?


from a sixers blog:
Hinkie is highly regarded around the league, as evidenced by the response from NBA observers:

Sam Hinkie is a fantastic hire by the Sixers. As smart a guy as I've encountered in the NBA.

— Zach Lowe (@ZachLowe_NBA) May 10, 2013
Huge congrats to Sam Hinkie & Sixers. Ridiculously bright, great teacher, better man. My favorite person in the NBA. Will be sorely missed.

— Jason Friedman (@JasonCFriedman) May 10, 2013
Good hire by the Sixers. That's a total change in direction.

— Paul Flannery (@Pflanns) May 10, 2013

from hinkie's first press conference:
“The challenge in front of us is not for the faint of heart,” Hinkie admitted. “It humbles me, in fact. But it also invigorates me to get to work.”

“Humbles” was an interesting word. “Frightens” might have been a better choice, but it was his first day on the job. Perhaps the terror will set in a little later.

If the Sixers are a home improvement project, Hinkie and his basketball construction staff can either tear the entire structure down to the foundation and rebuild, or they can keep what they like and renovate everything else. There is no right or guaranteed approach.

“The situation that the franchise is in right now after a well-documented big trade that didn’t end in a way that people are comfortable with,” Hinkie said. “And so now you really have to face yourself in the mirror everyday and look at the reality of what’s here and the reality of what can be.”

Again, it was his first day. He’s probably still looking for the coffee machine and someone to go to lunch with, so we’ll help him out. What’s here: Not much. What can be: That’s a much tougher topic.

“I started my career out of college in the business world in using data to help people make complicated decisions,” Hinkie said. “It turns out it helps. It helps a lot.”

He’d better hope so.

from derrick bodner:
"I started my career out of college in the business world. Using data to help people make complicated decisions. It turns out it helps. It helps a lot," new 76ers president and general manager Sam Hinkie said about advanced statistics. "[But] It's not everything."

"I want differential information. That might be from some snazzy, advanced something, and that might be from a conversation you had with that player's brother."

"I tell people that change is hard for all of us. Look at me 30 years from now and try to talk me out of my position and what's been successful for me for my whole career. I suspect I won't be nearly as pliable," Hinkie postulated.

"If you've been doing something a very long time, you should guard it closely...I hope [a coach] doesn't change his mind every time somebody has a conversation with him and presents a case. There ought to be a very high threshold [to change]."

The other major reason Hinkie stated, besides a resistance to change, is how the practice of using advanced statistics is presented.

"I think part of it is the tone people deal with each other in, which I've tried really, really hard not to do," Hinkie said.

"We talked a lot about process, not outcome. About trying to consistently take all the best information you can get and make consistently good decisions."

"the fact that [Harris] can stand up after what was considered, and is fair to say, was such a failure, and say that's a decision he would do again, that means a lot to someone like me."

"I want to build a leading basketball operations that consistently makes high quality decisions," Hinkie said. "Just beating the average by a bit, in a pool of 30 competitors, will serve only to disappoint us in the long run."

from june 2013:
According to a report in the New York Daily News, the Sixers are set to name Spurs assistant coach Brett Brown as the new head man.

“Not true,” Hinkie said.

after trading MCW and kj mcdaniels at the 2014 trade deadline:
“It is important that we continue to be aggressive in the ways in which we build our roster, and sometimes that includes that includes making difficult decisions in order to further our goal of building something.”

The Sixers have acquired seven players this since August who they’ve waived before they played a game. An eighth, Andrei Kirilenko, has never reported.

All this has left the Hinkie and the Sixers with a ton of draft picks. There’s a wiki page dedicated to keeping track.

Because they weren’t interested in adding many veterans, the Sixers were able to take fliers on a number of young fringe players contending teams didn’t have room for. One of them, Robert Covington, is reportedly now part of the team’s long-term plans.

Meanwhile, NBA analyst Chris Sheridan called Hinkie the winner of draft day. “When all is said and done on the Sam Hinkie Era, the Philadelphia 76ers will be counting up their multiple titles.”


december 2015, the sixers hire colangelo:
Colangelo doesn’t accept a job like this to take orders from somebody else.

“It’s clear (Hinkie) has, for all intents and purposes, been fired,”

...Since the 76-year-old Colangelo lives in Phoenix and isn’t moving, could that mean he hires somebody he’s comfortable with to be a daily presence in Philadelphia? Son Bryan, a former two-time NBA Executive of the Year who has been out of the league for 2 1/2 seasons, would be one possibility.

“I know Bryan,” said the second source. “Bryan’s going to be involved.”

   2476. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 23, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5658704)
oh, this one's good:

My name is Max Rappaport, and I’m in a cult.

beyond the story of a few bad seasons and an injured center's foot, The Process most notably has created a very public civil war between its supporters and detractors.

While most rebuilding teams typically enjoy a grace period during which to eschew present wins for future ones, the Sixers were never afforded that luxury.

Derek, 25, had flown to Philadelphia from Seattle, where he works as an engineer for Microsoft, for the sole purpose of attending this game. What in God’s name had compelled someone to travel across the country to be one of about 10,000 people watching the worst team in the NBA?

Spike and his fellow acolytes remained positive, playfully teasing the home crowd about its team lack of future draft picks, laughing lightheartedly at their own misfortune, and just generally enjoying themselves. After the game, television commentators Marc Zumoff and Alaa Abdelnaby, head coach Brett Brown, and Sam Hinkie himself spoke to the group, thanking them for their devotion and positivity.

"we’re the smart wrestling fans, and then there’s everybody else who’s not paying close attention."

It made me wonder—are cults inherently bad?
   2477. Quaker Posted: April 23, 2018 at 06:55 PM (#5658712)
What is the point of these posts?
   2478. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: April 23, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5658755)
Is it just me or does Kevin Durant seem a bit more concerned with his perception than most guys? This recent thing with instagram, telling Giannis to play for himself, and then the whole twitter fiasco from before. It's like he still feels like he has to justify going to the Warriors.
   2479. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 23, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5658763)
[2478] He's the ####### worst. I loathe him.
   2480. TFTIO is a very stable genius Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5658771)
Derrick Rose is totally going to get a multi-year contract from Thibs, isn't he?
   2481. JC in DC Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5658772)
[2479] Really? I like Durant. He always is cool about going home and mixing with his local community and doing stuff with/for it.
   2482. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5658774)
Seeing Rose there made me wistful.
   2483. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5658787)
Rockets have turned the ball over once so far in 33 minutes. Not gonna beat 'em when they're doing that (which is Chris Paul's superpower really). Shots are gonna fall eventually.
   2484. JC in DC Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5658788)
This became a blowout in a hurry
   2485. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5658789)
Good Lord what a quarter for Houston.
   2486. Tin Angel Posted: April 23, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5658793)
Good Lord what a quarter for Houston.


Dropping 50 in a quarter is pretty nuts.
   2487. PJ Martinez Posted: April 23, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5658804)
Justin Kubatko: "The Houston Rockets are just the second team in NBA postseason history to score at least 50 points in a quarter. The record of 51 points was set by the Lakers versus the Pistons on Mar. 31, 1962."

ESPN Stats: "The Timberwolves are the first team to be outscored by 30 points in any quarter of a postseason game since the 1986 Atlanta Hawks were outscored by the Celtics 36-6 in the 3rd quarter of Game 5 in the Eastern Conference Semifinals."
   2488. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 23, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5658832)
What is the point of these posts?

To make everyone unhappy.
   2489. Tin Angel Posted: April 23, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5658836)
To make everyone unhappy.


Or to make everyone scroll through this thread avoiding all of these obnoxious posts. Seriously, please, give it a ####### rest. In an extraordinarily weak conference your team hasn't even made it out of the first round of the playoffs yet. I'm a Warriors fan and Stiggles has done more #### talking in the past week than I have in the past four years.
   2490. stevegamer Posted: April 23, 2018 at 11:57 PM (#5658837)
What is the point of these posts?

To make everyone unhappy.


Yes, and it works. Basically, many of the "Process fanatics" in those articles are 76ers fans second to being fans of the Process. I know a few of that type, and some of them are religious adherents to the sports talk shows that provide part of their message now that Sam Hinkie is now St. Hinkie. Some are waiting for him to get back into the NBA and do it all over again and they are ready to support that new team during its run to multiple championships. Yes, they are that stupid, and yes it's sad.

Many of them also like to call out anyone who isn't a process fan as "not really a Sixer fan", even if they only latched on to the 76ers after the buzz started coming. Thankfully STEAGLES isn't that bad.

The Hinkie era is over, with 0 playoff appearances. Some of the players he brought in are still here, and some of the picks he acquired were used on players now here.

Spike Eskin is neither that bright nor that talented, but he is that related to people. If he's among the "leaders" of your "cult", you have a problem.

The solution to the posts is the ignore lists, for those of you who choose to use them. Some of us 76ers fans are rational, but it's hard to hear us over the shouting.
   2491. Tin Angel Posted: April 24, 2018 at 12:31 AM (#5658843)
I know a few of that type, and some of them are religious adherents to the sports talk shows that provide part of their message now that Sam Hinkie is now St. Hinkie.


He did draft one elite level talent (who has played a grand total of 94 games in the league) after three years of being horrible on purpose and having numerous first round picks. An absolute genius.
   2492. jmurph Posted: April 24, 2018 at 12:57 AM (#5658845)
Westbrook is just fully embarrassing himself tonight.
   2493. Booey Posted: April 24, 2018 at 01:28 AM (#5658849)
Westbrook is just fully embarrassing himself tonight.


But hey, he prevented Rubio from going off again, so...success?

Jazz need to step on OKC's neck on Wednesday and not even let the series come back to Salt Lake.
   2494. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 24, 2018 at 02:32 AM (#5658852)
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I endorse making everyone unhappy. I haven't watched any NBA playoff games yet this year. The 76ers lost me for good during the tanking campaign. I moved back to the Philly area, I wanted to watch good ol' Marc Zumoff commentating on the games again, and I couldn't watch the games because they were intentionally losing. They took that away from me for years, telling us you'd have to be some sort of naive loser to actually buy a ticket or root for the team, and now I don't live there anymore, so it's over. I hate the private equity leveraged buyout corporate raider owners anyway and I don't want to be associated with them or with the weirdo on this website and his contemptible gloating campaign.
   2495. maccoach57 Posted: April 24, 2018 at 02:50 AM (#5658854)
Hinkie and The Process: For me, one question is whether what Hinkie did meaningfully increased the chances of the 76ers building an elite roster. I am not at all convinced that it did, but:
1. I am not in position to refute it specifically.
2. Whatever might have happened, the fact is that they have Embiid and Simmons and are in good shape to have a long contention window of Embiid stays healthy.

Chances of current 76ers team: I have been dealing with some personal stuff and so not following things as closely, so I assume that there have been some articles etc about whether teams with hot streaks late in the season have had inordinate postseason success. Maybe the 76ers are actually a 60-win team right now and will crush the East.

Meta stuff with STIGGLES: If he drifts more into trashtalking other teams and fanbases rather than mostly just Stanning Hinkie, I might see it as a problem. For now, I have no issue. YMMV.
   2496. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 24, 2018 at 03:09 AM (#5658855)
What is the point of these posts?

To make everyone unhappy.
I was generally rooting for them, just because I like seeing young players succeed and new contenders rise up. I also don't mind a little gloating — after all, we're all fans and we all have biases, and so long as we're not horrible about it, we should be allowed to indulge, and tolerate it when other people indulge in the same. That said, I didn't realize full STIGGLES meant making enemies out of everyone else on the thread. I hate it.
   2497. KronicFatigue Posted: April 24, 2018 at 07:11 AM (#5658865)
I went to bed before the OKC game even started, but my god, it sounds like it hit all the right buttons for me. 1) Westbrook making it all about him vs Rubio 2) FOUR fouls on Westbrook in the first half 3) Melo being awful 4) Westbrook whining in the post game about how it wasn't all about him vs Rubio.

I've been rooting against Melo for many years, and seeing OKC struggle early in the season gave me false hope they might miss the playoffs. Then there was the fear of them beating an injured Warriors in the first round (would have been awful for Durant). But this, this is why the 2018 writers are making the big bucks this year. What a perfectly clownish way to lose a playoff game.
   2498. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: April 24, 2018 at 07:19 AM (#5658866)
Re: OKC/Jazz

As a Knick fan, I grew to like Melo despite how much I hated him, the deal to get him, and his contract extension, so I am somewhat sad to see the way this is all ending for him, but this Jazz team is fun and Rubio has always been a really compelling player to me. Somewhere many years ago in the earlier stages of this thread I used to get mad when people pretended Derrick Rose was better than Westbrook and I would wonder aloud whether Westbrook had a higher ceiling than Durant, but I can admit he is annoying and "plays the game the wrong way" so I am enjoying his comeuppance.

Re: steagles

I find the posts super annoying.

Re: Hinkie/Process

I can't believe people are still trying to argue it didn't work. 5 years after he was hired a team filled with guys he either drafted/signed/or gathered the picks to deal for/acquire has a good path to the Finals. It's possible this could have occurred some other way, sure, but that doesn't mean his plan didn't work.
   2499. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 24, 2018 at 08:17 AM (#5658874)
Re: steagles

I find the posts super annoying.


Participating in OT:P has given me the ability to skim past such nonsense. Anyway about the Wolves ... sigh. Totally predictable, but did it have to be such a complete beat down? Really?

   2500. JC in DC Posted: April 24, 2018 at 08:22 AM (#5658875)
I admire Melo a lot as a man, at least what I can see of him through the press. I hate his game.

I don't find the STIGGLES posts annoying. Some of that stuff he posted most recently I actually found informative. The last post was, whatever. I have no interest in it. And I'm with NJ on the process: I have no interest in canonizing Hinkie, but I wouldn't be unhappy if he ran my club.

To me, the most interesting thing from last night is Westbrook. Would you want him on your team? I really am drawn to his personality. I mean, he's off, no doubt about it, but god, he cares. And he gives so much. And he's so damn loyal. But he needs a Larry Brown or Pat Riley, or someone like them: with the authority and experience to harness his talent. He's been given a flyer for too long and it's hurting him and of course, his team.
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