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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6537 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   4301. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5673179)
Yeah I was happy to see so many JR minutes instead of Korver.

Love has given Horford problems, which worries me going forward.
   4302. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:30 PM (#5673180)
Not sure what the strategy to starting the 4th without Love or LeBron on the floor was.
   4303. spivey Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5673183)
Someone give Mark Jackson a job and put me out of my misery. Give Reggie Miller a job too.
   4304. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5673186)
Boston's defense and offense have both been as advertised.
   4305. spivey Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5673187)
Cleveland is so sloppy on both sides. Toronto what the ####.
   4306. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5673188)
Segments of Celtics fans on twitter have taken to calling Marcus Morris "Flask Dad". The shoe fits.
   4307. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5673189)
Marcus Smart is such a weird, wonderful player.
   4308. spivey Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5673191)
Celtics should have stretched this lead more. They’ve been sloppy with the ball here too
   4309. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5673194)
Am I wrong in thinking James has made almost zero impact defensively tonight? He's not challenging anything: passes, drives, breakouts, switches, ballhandlers. Could he be ... tired?

Sure but in fairness he's 90% of their offense. It's probably tiring.


I don't think it's just fatigue. The Cavs have an awful defensive culture. It's not just LeBron--it's JR, it's George Hill, it's Hood, it's Clarkson, it's literally their whole team.
   4310. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5673196)
Cleveland is so sloppy on both sides. Toronto what the ####.


It appears that Indiana and Boston would have also swept the Raptors.
   4311. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5673197)
If you told me that James was going to get 40 and Love was going to get 25, I'd have thought that they were winning handily.
   4312. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5673198)
I don't think it's just fatigue. The Cavs have an awful defensive culture. It's not just LeBron--it's JR, it's George Hill, it's Hood, it's Clarkson, it's literally their whole team.

True- they just give up on so many possessions.

But as Spicey points out, Boston just left a lot of points on the floor the last couple minutes. Might come back to haunt them.
   4313. Harlond Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:47 PM (#5673201)
Really empty performance from George Hill. Looks afraid to shoot, hasn't initiated any offense, can't stay in front of his man. Getting nothing from him.
   4314. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5673202)
If you told me that James was going to get 40 and Love was going to get 25, I'd have thought that they were winning handily.

Jeff Green.
   4315. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5673203)
JR Smith has done literally nothing tonight.
   4316. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5673206)
JR Smith has done literally nothing tonight.

Don't sell him short, he looks to have just slightly injured Boston's most important player.
   4317. spivey Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5673207)
That was quite the dirty play by JR there
   4318. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5673210)
Again with the ####### double technicals.
   4319. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5673211)
Yeah, hard to see how that wasn't a flagrant 2. Smart is lucky Thompson was right there to keep him from coldcocking JR.
   4320. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5673212)
It appears that Indiana and Boston would have also swept the Raptors.


No. I don't know what it is, but LeBron James has a personal vendetta against the city of Toronto.

Toronto is super soft, though.

(also, let's not overreact to the home team winning)
   4321. spivey Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5673214)
The passing by Cleveland here is ####### shenanigans
   4322. smileyy Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5673215)
Triple Double for LeBron
   4323. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5673216)
Speaking of dumb slogans, what the hell does "Cus Crise" mean?
   4324. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5673219)
Horford came back angry after being fouled.
   4325. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5673222)
Speaking of dumb slogans, what the hell does "Cus Crise" mean?

Please do not interpret this as a defense, but it's C Us Rise.

It's dumb.
   4326. spivey Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5673223)
JR just stood there and watched Rozier shoot that layup. JR Smith had a little place in my heart for his post championship press conference, but man I’m glad he’s not a spur.
   4327. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 15, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5673224)
Cuse Crisis. In honor of Syracuse's longtime rival Boston College.
   4328. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5673225)
However much heat Koby Altman has taken for the deadline day deals, it isn't nearly enough.
   4329. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:01 PM (#5673226)
Ok, so I think I'm going to get my wish that this series goes 6.

eta: Or at least, that the Celtics win two or more games.
   4330. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:01 PM (#5673227)
Please do not interpret this as a defense, but it's C Us Rise.

It's dumb.


Wow that's a dumb slogan and awful design.
   4331. jmurph Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:04 PM (#5673229)
Wow that's a dumb slogan and awful design.

It is. I feel like there was a time that the historically successful teams (Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, etc.) didn't do the same color crowd t-shirt gimmicks and free towels for the fans to wave and nonsense like C Us Rise, but now they're all in on it.

Also on an unrelated note I'm super into lawn care.
   4332. JC in DC Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5673231)
Any concern in LBJ yet, you think? Yes, the hometeam defended its turf, and teams often look bad when they lose, but that was not a great game by Boston (did Tatum play?), and they still won.
   4333. smileyy Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5673241)
The two things I'm looking forward to most at this point are the mock draft and where LeBron ends up
   4334. Chicago Joe Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5673247)
Three-way:
LAL gets:
Paul Zipser

CHI gets:
Lonzo
#12
#13

LAC gets:
Luol
#7
CHI 2019 pick (if they have it, if not, 2020)
Denzel Valentine
   4335. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:41 PM (#5673248)
Just saw the following on ESPN: 92% of CLE's 2nd half shots were contested compared to 58% of BOS shots.
   4336. tshipman Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:45 PM (#5673250)
@4334:
Wait, is that your proposed trade, or something that actually happened?

That's a terrible trade for everyone but Chicago, so I'm assuming it's your proposed trade.

   4337. MHS Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5673251)

I continue to be remarkably confused by Marcus Snart. This is not new. It has been true for 4 years now. Why would this game be different? Early in the game he takes the Marcus-of-Marcus shots. One inch OVER the three point line. 20 seconds left on the shot clock. Three Celtics on the break and two Cavs defending. Yes! Of course he BRICKS!

But he redeems himself with instinctual defense (outside of the piss poor 1H vs Korver).

He redeems himself with effort. With Diving, leaping, pushing, shoving and desire.

Courage. Courage to leave it on the court. Courage to stand up for his teammates. Courage to shoot and courage drive when it the percentages say don’t. And they usually don’t but sometimes. Sometimes they do. Marcus we love you!

   4338. PJ Martinez Posted: May 15, 2018 at 11:55 PM (#5673254)
LeBron James on the shot to the jaw, and whether it affected him, for what it's worth: "It was a tough blow, obviously incidental. His shoulder hit me square in the jaw, so I just wanted to go back and make sure everything was fine. But it didn’t affect my game after that."
   4339. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:03 AM (#5673257)
[4338] Wouldn't expect him to say anything else.
   4340. Chicago Joe Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:06 AM (#5673260)
4436, sorry, who says no?

I think it looks good for LAL, but I'm unconvinced about Lonzo to say the least.
LAL gets 18 mil to augment their probable free agent bonanza.
LAC gets two pretty nice draft picks, gets a tank engineer (Deng) and a player in need of something drastic.
CHI gets a marquee piece but only nominally so. I guess you could do this without LAC.
   4341. PJ Martinez Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:12 AM (#5673262)
LAL says no. I think it's safe to say that they are not as down on Lonzo as you are.
   4342. Chicago Joe Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:34 AM (#5673264)
42/31/45(!). 49% at the rim. Be surprised if there isn't cause for concern.
   4343. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:35 AM (#5673265)
LAC says no, too. Why are they taking on Deng and giving up #12 and 13 in order to move up 5 slots in a deep draft?
   4344. Chicago Joe Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:01 AM (#5673267)
5 slots plus CHI's next first rounder. That's pretty nice. And what are they going to do with space in the next two years?
   4345. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:50 AM (#5673271)
i think a CHI/LAC swap makes sense. so does DAL/LAC and ORL/LAC. LAC's entire rotation (louwill/beverly/milos/bradley/rivers/johnson/gallinari/harris/harrell/jordan/boban) is 25+ years old, so getting up into the 5-7 range and plucking someone who could get up to speed a bit faster is probably a good idea.

i'm not sure why the lakers are involved, though. if they're willing to sacrifice lonzo, they'll be able to dump deng whenever they want. there's no reason to force it before it's necessary.


i also think most teams have learned not to treat future first round picks like they're dollar bills in a strip club.
   4346. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:03 AM (#5673272)
PHO should take a page from hinkie and shop booker to the highest bidder at the draft this year. he's already up for an extension, and personally, i would not want to pay him big money. i think they could get a top 10 pick this year, plus a future unprotected pick for him. tank for another year or two and just let your rebuild percolate for another year or two.

on a related note, ORL should take a page from hinkie and dump vucevic and fournier. go fully into the tank and take the time to get it right.

on another related note, if SAC takes ayton, i wonder how much it'll cost to poach WCS. he hasn't been very good through 3 years, but i wouldn't be shocked if he'd get a second wind by leaving SAC.
   4347. PJ Martinez Posted: May 16, 2018 at 07:20 AM (#5673285)
I disagree on PHO but agree on ORL, and I wonder the same thing about WCS.
   4348. SteveF Posted: May 16, 2018 at 07:33 AM (#5673288)
PHO should take a page from hinkie and shop booker to the highest bidder at the draft this year. he's already up for an extension, and personally, i would not want to pay him big money. i think they could get a top 10 pick this year, plus a future unprotected pick for him. tank for another year or two and just let your rebuild percolate for another year or two.

I completely agree. I wouldn't want anything to do with Booker on a big contract.
   4349. jmurph Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5673310)
I completely agree. I wouldn't want anything to do with Booker on a big contract.

Same on Booker. He's super young still so there is plenty of time to be proven wrong, but I'm not willing to gamble $150 million to see if he evolves into anything more than a really high usage, inefficient offense-only guy.
   4350. jmurph Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5673313)
Just saw the following on ESPN: 92% of CLE's 2nd half shots were contested compared to 58% of BOS shots.

Related:
Rachel Nichols @Rachel__Nichols
When I asked Brad Stevens about the Celtics' strategy on LeBron, he said "make it as hard as possible for as long as possible." And he meant it. According to tracking data, LeBron had just one open look the entire game & it came in the first 90 seconds of the 1st Q.
   4351. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5673355)
Anna Horford @AnnaHorford 12h12 hours ago

#### YOU JR
   4352. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: May 16, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5673358)
I was impressed with how cute Al Horford's kid was last night.
   4353. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5673362)
I see a bunch of people linking the Bulls to Wendell Carter, which my first impression is just meh. If they're insistent on a big, and it's unlikely Jackson falls, why not swing for the fences with Bamba? Sure, he could be another Thabeet, but he seems like he also has the higher ceiling (Gobert is probably a guy he'll get comped to, right?).

Considering Lopez and Portis are both adequate to good, if the Bulls real goal is to get back to the playoffs ASAP, I don't see them going after a big that will take development time (with their first pick; 2nd pick, probably). Sorry, stiggly, but I think Bridges is a prototypical Bulls pick; safe, experienced, from a winning program.

I think I'm hoping Porter falls, but if he does fall that far, it might be because there's real concern about the back. Again though, the Bulls could really use some real upside with the pick and playing it safe kinda sucks.

   4354. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5673396)
The Kings made that jump only because they lost a "coin flip" (actually a separate drawing) in April with the Bulls. Had that coin flip gone the other way, Chicago owns the four-number combination in question and is picking No. 2. Atlanta similarly won Tuesday night by losing a coin flip with Dallas, which fell to No. 5.


*Shakes fists at the tanking gods*
   4355. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5673412)
Sorry, stiggly, but I think Bridges is a prototypical Bulls pick; safe, experienced, from a winning program.

when you're sitting at #10 like the sixers this year, it's not up to you whether you get the player you covet. you either make a move or you cross your fingers.

the worst case for the sixers, imo, is that the best players left at #10 are carter, knox, sexton and miles bridges. if that happens, and if the sixers don't trade the pick, i might just go off the board for someone like zhaire smith.
   4356. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 16, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5673413)
Got a phone call from Kevin (yes, that Kevin) before the game last night. He picked the Celtics to win last night and then go on to lose to the Warriors in either 6 or 7 games. First time I'd heard from him in several years.
   4357. The Good Face Posted: May 16, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5673421)
LAL says no. I think it's safe to say that they are not as down on Lonzo as you are.


Yeah, based on everything I've read, LAL (particularly Magic Johnson) are still very high on Lonzo. They're not moving him just to dump the Deng contract.

the worst case for the sixers, imo, is that the best players left at #10 are carter, knox, sexton and miles bridges. if that happens, and if the sixers don't trade the pick, i might just go off the board for someone like zhaire smith.


I like Zhaire Smith a lot, although Miles Bridges doesn't seem like a bad fit for Philly. Mikal Bridges would be better, but Miles has good size and athleticism, and there's reason to be optimistic about his shooting long term.
   4358. JC in DC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5673427)
I can't imagine NY lets Mikal Bridges slip past them. Good lord, he fits perfectly: he can contribute right away, they need a perimeter defender and shooter. I mean, c'mon.
   4359. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5673447)
Just for fun, here is last year's BTF Mock Draft.


1. Boston (MHS)- Markelle Fultz, PG Washington.
2. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Lonzo Ball, PG UCLA
3. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Josh Jackson, F Kansas
4. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Jonathan Isaac, F FSU
5. Sacramento (smileyy) - De'Aaron Fox, Kentucky
6. Orlando (Votto) - Jayson Tatum, Duke
7. Minnesota (berg) - Lauri Markkanen, F Arizona
8. New York (NJ/JC) - Frank Ntilikina, PG France
9. Dallas (billyshears) - Malik Monk, G Kentucky
10. Indiana via Sacramento (King Mekong) - Dennis Smith Jr, NC State
11. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) - Donovan Mitchell, Louisville
12. Detroit (Crosseyed)- Zach Collins, F Gonzaga
13. Denver (PASTE) - Luke Kennard, G Duke
14. Miami (Mellow Mouse) - Jarret Allen, C Texas
15. Chicago via Portland (Dandy) - Jordan Bell, F Oregon
16. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) - Justin Jackson, SF North Carolina
17. Milwaukee (Sosa)- Tyler Lydon, SF Syracuse
18. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy) - Bam Adebayo, Kentucky
19. Atlanta (Laser Man) - T.J. Leaf, F UCLA
20. Portland (JJ) - OG Anunoby, F Indiana
21. OKC (Thok) - Terrence Ferguson, SF/SG Adelaide 36ers
22. Brooklyn (jmurph) - Justin Patton, C, Creighton
23. Chicago via Philadelphia (via Toronto) (Dandy) - Jawun Evans, PG Oklahoma St
24. Utah (Booey) - John Collins, Wake Forest
25. Orlando (Votto) - DJ Wilson, Michigan
26. Portland (JJ) - Semi Ojeleye, PF, SMU
27. Brooklyn (jmurph) - Harry Giles, PF/C, Duke
28. LA Lakers (hombRRe) - Johnathan Motley, PF, Baylor
29. San Antonio (Quaker) - Josh Hart, G, Villanova
30. Utah (Booey) - Derrick White, G, Colorado

Round 2
31. Atlanta (Laser Man) - Ike Anigbogu, C, UCLA
32. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Thomas Bryant, F/C, Indiana
33. Orlando (Votto) - Frank Jackson, G, Duke
34. Sacramento (smileyy) - Edmond Sumner, G, Xavier
35. Orlando (Votto) - Caleb Swanigan, F, Purdue
36. Toronto (via Philadelphia) (TFTIO) - Isaiah Hartenstein, F/C, Germany
37. Boston (MHS)- Jonah Bolden, F, Radnicki
38. Philadelphia via Chicago (STIGGLES) - Tony Bradley, C, UNC
39. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Monte Morris, PG, Iowa State
40. New Orleans (stevegamer) - Frank Mason, PG, Kansas
41. Charlotte (Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw) - Anzejs Pasecniks, C, Latvia
42. Utah (Booey) - Kyle Kuzma, F, Utah
43. Philadelphia via Houston (STIGGLES) - Alpha Kaba, C, France
44. New York (NJ/JC) - George De Paula, G, Brazil
45. Philadelphia via Houston (STIGGLES) - Alberto Abalde, F, Spain
46. Philadelphia (STIGGLES) - Aleksander Vezenkov, F, Bulgaria
47. Sacramento via Indiana (smileyy) - Devin Robinson, F, Florida
48. Milwaukee (Sosa) - London Perrantes, G, UVA
49. Denver (PASTE) - Alec Peters, SF, Valpariso
50. Golden State via Toronto (via Philadelphia) (sardonic) - Ivan Rabb, PF, California
51. Denver (PASTE) - Jaron Blossomgame, combo forward, Clemson
52. Washington (AROM) - Sterling Brown, SG, SMU
53. Boston (MHS) - Sindarius Thornwell, SG, South Carolina
54. Phoenix (Oriole Tragic) - Davon Reed, Miami
55. Chicago via Utah (Dandy) - Jeremy Morgan, SG, Northern Iowa
56. Portland via Boston (JJ) - PJ Dozier, G, South Carolina
57. Brooklyn (jmurph) - Tyler Dorsey, G, Oregon
58. Philadelphia via New York (STIGGLES) - Mathias Lessort, F, France
59. San Antonio (Quaker) - Vlatko Cancar, F, Slovenia
60. Atlanta (Laser Man) - Nigel Williams-Goss, G Gonzaga.
   4360. aberg Posted: May 16, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5673452)
I like Zhaire Smith a lot, although Miles Bridges doesn't seem like a bad fit for Philly. Mikal Bridges would be better, but Miles has good size and athleticism, and there's reason to be optimistic about his shooting long term.


Smith is interesting and I could see him moving up from where he has been projected. He didn't get a ton of attention at a school that isn't a hoops powerhouse, but he was very productive and I think he will test well.

Some other guys outside of the consensus top 10 that I like:
Defense-oriented wings: Khyri Thomas, Keita Bates-Diop
Playmaking wings: Shamet, Troy Brown (not sure if he'll develop a shot or if he'll be a good system defender, but he is big, athletic, and skilled), Trent seems destined to have a long career as a rotation scorer
Modern bigs: Spellman, Jontay Porter
Lotto tickets: Mitchell Robinson (before his weird de-commitment saga, was viewed as a possible top 5 pick. If you can get him out of the lotto, interesting swing for the fences), Anfernee Simons, Hamadou Diallo

I saw Chandler Hutchison have an amazing game in person. Haven't seen much more of him, but my interested is piqued.

Guys I like less than the consensus: Gilgeous-Alexander, MSU Bridges, Aaron Holiday, Trevon Duval, Melton
   4361. JC in DC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5673507)
Any thoughts/predictions for tonight? It's going to be very interesting, I think, a 50-50 ball. I can see it going either way: this is the game Houston wins, having made proper adjustments and getting a great game from Paul and someone unanticipated (Ariza?); or GSW anticipates the response, gets the usual from Durant, and a blow up game from Curry and/or Clay. I'm really looking forward to it.

As I was trying to think which coach I have more confidence in (Kerr v. D'Antoni), I couldn't help but think how jealous I am of Boston fans, who probably feel pretty confident that Stephens is going to make the right adjustments pre-game and at half. That's a good feeling to have.
   4362. The Good Face Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5673512)
I can't imagine NY lets Mikal Bridges slip past them. Good lord, he fits perfectly: he can contribute right away, they need a perimeter defender and shooter. I mean, c'mon.


Mikal Bridges fits every single team in the NBA; everybody wants long, switchy defenders that can shoot. But I could see an argument for drafting BPA and at 9 that might not be Bridges if somebody like Porter slips. On the other hand, it wouldn't shock me if Bridges got snapped up by Chicago or Cleveland, assuming LeBron stays. He's exactly the kind of player that you should surround LeBron with.

Guys I like less than the consensus: Gilgeous-Alexander, MSU Bridges, Aaron Holiday, Trevon Duval, Melton


I like Miles Bridges. I think there are better options than Holiday for where he'll go, but I'm not down on him. Not a fan of Duval.
   4363. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5673539)
As I was trying to think which coach I have more confidence in (Kerr v. D'Antoni), I couldn't help but think how jealous I am of Boston fans, who probably feel pretty confident that Stephens is going to make the right adjustments pre-game and at half. That's a good feeling to have.


Steve Kerr has won 2 NBA championships and has the record for wins!

Brad Stephens went seven games against Milwaukee in the first round!

If Boston wins the NBA finals, I am going to have to eat a lot of ####, but come on. Let's stop crowning coaches before they ever win anything significant.
   4364. Howie Menckel Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:14 PM (#5673559)
ESPN.com had a note that actress Jami Gertz, a part-owner of the Hawks, participated in the lottery.

Among her many gigs (Lost Boys, Square Pegs, Twister) was a role in "Seinfeld" as the woman in the stall next to Elaine who refused to share toilet paper. Gertz said no, she does not mind constantly being reminded of it - adding that sometimes when she is recognized in a restaurant, women will follow her into the restroom to get the stall next to her, then ask if she could "spare a square." love it.
   4365. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5673560)
So count da ringzzz for coaches? That seems even dumber than for players.
   4366. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5673563)
Zach Lowe @ZachLowe_NBA 3m3 minutes ago

Giannis Antetokounmpo and Mike Budenholzer had breakfast today in Milwaukee, league sources say.
   4367. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5673564)
From Zach Lowe's BTS lottery column:

• Leave it to Jami Gertz, the actress and wife of Hawks controlling owner Tony Ressler, to sum up the absurdity of the event -- for which Gertz represented the Hawks on the dais. "So much is weighing on something I can't do anything about," she told me. When Ressler nominated her, Gertz thought she might actually be the one picking out the ping-pong balls, she said. She hosts Bingo games at fundraisers for a nonprofit she and Ressler cofounded, so overseeing the lottery drawing would have been a natural transition, she said.

   4368. Eddo Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5673572)
So count da ringzzz for coaches? That seems even dumber than for players.

I actually think count da ringzzz is more appropriate for coaches, even though, like for players, it's overrated by non-critical-thinking people.
   4369. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5673575)
I actually think count da ringzzz is more appropriate for coaches, even though, like for players, it's overrated by non-critical-thinking people.

Sure, and I don't think you have to go to that to think Kerr > D'Antoni, or that Stevens is pretty good. Besides, I think JC's point was more about how the fans feel about their coach, and it's literally impossible to overstate C's fans' (Cus fans?) confidence in Stevens.
   4370. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5673576)
I actually think count da ringzzz is more appropriate for coaches

Why? If you take Ty Lue off the Cavs, they don't miss a beat. If you take LeBron off the Cavs, they are ######. They are what, a 30 win team without him? It's a talent first league. And a transcendent superstar, makes you an instant title contender. A coach without the horses is screwed. If Kerr goes to the Knicks, he doesn't win ####. If Stephens went to the Nets, they aren't suddenly in the ECF, on the verge of making the finals...
   4371. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5673577)
So count da ringzzz for coaches? That seems even dumber than for players.


Coaches are often products of their circumstance and less in control than fans give credit for.

Mike D'Antoni was a genius in Phoenix, a moron in New York and LA, and is now back to a genius in Houston.

Thibs was great in Boston and Chicago, but is now the scapegoat in Minnesota.

Stan Van Gundy was an innovator in Orlando and is a disappointment in Detroit.

In the last 30 years half the NBA titles have been won by 2 guys: Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich. I certainly don't think that's a coincidence. The hardest thing to do as an NBA coach is to make adjustments on the fly in a playoff series.

Brad Stephens has been very successful as an NBA coach over the last 5 years in Boston. Until we see him coaching in another city or winning a championship, it's difficult to say how much of that is circumstance and how much of that is him. There's an unfortunate dynamic in the Cleveland/Boston series where whenever the Cavs do something good, it's because of the players, but whenever Boston does something good, it's the coach. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't, but Stephens gets an inordinate amount of credit (in my view) for a guy who hasn't gotten all the way there.
   4372. Eddo Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5673583)
Sure, and I don't think you have to go to that to think Kerr > D'Antoni, or that Stevens is pretty good. Besides, I think JC's point was more about how the fans feel about their coach, and it's literally impossible to overstate C's fans' (Cus fans?) confidence in Stevens.

Oh, totally agree.

------

Why? If you take Ty Lue off the Cavs, they don't miss a beat. If you take LeBron off the Cavs, they are ######. They are what, a 30 win team without him? It's a talent first league. And a transcendent superstar, makes you an instant title contender. A coach without the horses is screwed. If Kerr goes to the Knicks, he doesn't win ####. If Stephens went to the Nets, they aren't suddenly in the ECF, on the verge of making the finals...

Using LeBron is a bit of an extreme case, though - and even his teams have been somewhat coaching-dependent; Blatt replaced by Lue, and his best teams and years were with Spoelstra. And Kerr clearly took the Warriors to a level Jackson didn't or couldn't.

Coaching wins and rings are far from the only thing, but I still think when comparing Generic Coach A with Generic Coach B, team success is a much better piece of evidence than when it's used for Player C vs. Player D.

Or put it another way: what percent of great coaches don't have a title, compared to the percent of truly great players without one?

------

In the last 30 years half the NBA titles have been won by 2 guys: Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich. I certainly don't think that's a coincidence. The hardest thing to do as an NBA coach is to make adjustments on the fly in a playoff series.

I'm not sure if this is an argument against coaching rings/wins being a valid point or not.

   4373. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5673591)
Didn't LeBron's first Cleveland tenure end with the Cavs getting trounced by the Celtics?
   4374. Internet Commenter Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5673594)
PHO should take a page from hinkie and shop booker to the highest bidder at the draft this year. he's already up for an extension, and personally, i would not want to pay him big money. i think they could get a top 10 pick this year, plus a future unprotected pick for him. tank for another year or two and just let your rebuild percolate for another year or two.

I don't think the fans would tolerate a Booker trade at this point. Sarver's also angling for a new arena, which firmly puts them in win-now mode. Given Sarver's well-documented impatience and meddling, I think it's highly unwise to bank on him sticking with a rebuild for any longer before he takes matters into his own hands and screws the team again. On top of all that, I don't think McDonough's track record in drafts provides any reason to believe that he'd do better than Booker with future picks.

Aside from the practicalities, there are some mitigating factors for Booker. He's never played with a quality supporting cast or for a high-quality coach. He's never had a great playmaker running the offense. He's clearly improved from his rookie year (TS% .535 -> .561). He was .878 FT% and .383 3P% on 5.9 3PA/36 this year. The guy can shoot and almost certainly still has room to grow. Those shooting numbers this year come when he was always the focus of the other team's defense. Booker didn't have a ton of easy shots and was also forced into being the primary ballhandler for a chunk of the season after the Bledsoe trade. Booker is getting better, despite having the target on his back in a terrible context for a developing player. The defense is an issue, but what is a reasonable expectation for a 21-year-old guard with >30 USG% who has a trash defense around him and has had three different head coaches in three seasons on a team that was trying to lose?

This is why Kokoskov and Doncic intrigues me so much. If there's an impact playmaker, then Booker should have access to easier shots and more energy for defense. A real coach should be able to implement a system and receive buy-in from the players now that the team is no longer tanking.

The Suns have picks and money. They can let guys like Len and Payton walk, Chandler and Dudley are expiring contracts, etc.
   4375. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5673600)
The only thing better documented than Sarver's impatience and meddling is his cheapness. He's the most miserly owner in the league, bar none. The Suns certainly HAVE money, but they're not going to SPEND it.
   4376. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:07 PM (#5673613)
Zach Lowe @ZachLowe_NBA 3m3 minutes ago

Giannis Antetokounmpo and Mike Budenholzer had breakfast today in Milwaukee, league sources say.


URGENT UPDATE

Zach Lowe @ZachLowe_NBA 16m16 minutes ago

Khris Middleton was also there, I'm told.
   4377. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5673626)
Aside from the practicalities, there are some mitigating factors for Booker. He's never played with a quality supporting cast or for a high-quality coach. He's never had a great playmaker running the offense. He's clearly improved from his rookie year (TS% .535 -> .561). He was .878 FT% and .383 3P% on 5.9 3PA/36 this year. The guy can shoot and almost certainly still has room to grow. Those shooting numbers this year come when he was always the focus of the other team's defense. Booker didn't have a ton of easy shots and was also forced into being the primary ballhandler for a chunk of the season after the Bledsoe trade. Booker is getting better, despite having the target on his back in a terrible context for a developing player. The defense is an issue, but what is a reasonable expectation for a 21-year-old guard with >30 USG% who has a trash defense around him and has had three different head coaches in three seasons on a team that was trying to lose?
that right there is the reason why bad teams stay bad.

if you trade booker, you could walk away from the draft with doncic (4 years of cheap control), mikal bridges (4 years), robert williams (4 years), keenan evans (2nd round), josh jackson (3 more years of cheap control), dragon bender (2 more years), marquese chriss (2 more years), tyler ulis (2 more years), tj warren (4/50 left), 2 unprotected 2019 1st round picks and a ton of caproom at some point in the near future.

that team will be fun and athletic and terrible, which means that next summer, you could add 2 more top lottery picks.

with some luck, your rebuild could be done within a calendar year.
   4378. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5673634)
What is the trade to get that gets Suns those picks?
   4379. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5673642)
with some luck, your rebuild could be done within a calendar year.


Right, or you're Orlando, and most of those guys don't pan out and you're back in the lottery for another 4 years.

Using LeBron is a bit of an extreme case, though - and even his teams have been somewhat coaching-dependent; Blatt replaced by Lue, and his best teams and years were with Spoelstra. And Kerr clearly took the Warriors to a level Jackson didn't or couldn't.


I would argue that LeBron is a great example of the value of coaching.

I'm not sure if this is an argument against coaching rings/wins being a valid point or not.


It's an argument for coaching rings/wins being a valid starting point. If you take the top two players of the last 30 years (LeBron and MJ), they combine for 9 championships, while the coaches combine for 15.
   4380. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5673646)
What is the trade to get that gets Suns those picks?
the usual suspects. ORL, DAL, CHI, NYK, maybe LAC. there may be salary or other pieces going one way or the other, but the baseline is essentially the jrue holiday trade.

PHO already has 1, 16, 31, which is where i figure they'd get doncic, williams and evans.
   4381. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5673666)
Right, or you're Orlando, and most of those guys don't pan out and you're back in the lottery for another 4 years.

which is why it's important to create as many high quality chances as possible, rather than locking in someone you know isn't good enough.

ORL is the model you're advocating for, not the one you're arguing against. they extended fournier (booker) and vucevic (warren) to keep from sinking to the bottom of the lottery. they signed biyombo (chandler), simmons (dudley), augustin (daniels), ross, etc. to add veteran experience around a growing core. they cashed in assets (sabonis and oladipo) to get, what they thought, was the final piece (ibaka). they also missed on nearly every lottery pick they made since trading dwight howard (oladipo, gordon, payton, hezonja, sabonis, isaac).


ORL kept trying to move forward in the hopes that their best players (who they knew weren't good enough) would all become significantly better.
   4382. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5673670)
Who says no? Fultz, the Lakers pick, and a future Philly 1st for Booker.
   4383. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5673671)
Mike D'Antoni was a genius in Phoenix, a moron in New York and LA, and is now back to a genius in Houston.

Thibs was great in Boston and Chicago, but is now the scapegoat in Minnesota.

Stan Van Gundy was an innovator in Orlando and is a disappointment in Detroit.


I don't know about The Hedgehog, but Thibs and D'Antoni strike me as great system coaches that fail without players that fit their system. Same thing happens in the NFL when a great coordinator gets hired to be a head coach, is mediocre, then goes back to being a great coordinator. Thibs is the Wade Phillips of the NBA.

Stevens and Pops make the system fit their players, regardless of who they have. And before Stevens gets completely written off as a one-town-one-trick pony, he did bring Butler to back-to-back NCAA finals with Shelvin Mack leading the way to the 1st and Andrew Smith the 2nd.
   4384. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5673682)
Who says no? Fultz, the Lakers pick, and a future Philly 1st for Booker.
PHI, but there might be a way to make something like that work.
   4385. SteveF Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5673684)
PHI, but there might be a way to make something like that work.

I'm sure it will involve Jerryd Bayless.
   4386. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5673692)
I'm sure it will involve Jerryd Bayless.

Believe me, I was pissed when I didn't need him to make salaries work!
   4387. JC in DC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5673700)
As Moses points out, I was talking about the Celtics' fans confidence. That said, the notion we can't judge Stevens as clearly a very good coach in whom to have confidence because he's not yet won is super-silly.
   4388. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5673703)
@wojespn Sources: Among candidates that Detroit is showing interest to run its basketball operations: NBA’s Kiki VanDeWeghe, Memphis’ Ed Stefanski, Houston’s Gersson Rosas, Brooklyn’s Trajan Langdon. Brent Barry and Miami’s Shane Battier have been targeted for roles in front office too.


Twitter is letting me know Stefanski is no bueno.
Kiki seems sort of out of the game.
Rosas, sure!
Langdon's wikipedia page has 0 information about his front office work. Must be very impressive in interviews or by reputation?
   4389. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5673714)
Twitter is letting me know Stefanski is no bueno.

as a PHI fan, here are my impressions of stefanski:
he'll reliably hit doubles (he drafted thad, jrue, vucevic, lavoy allen; he signed elton brand)
he has no interest in innovation or doing anything interesting.
his command of the CBA and salary cap is not an asset.
he doesn't value 2nd round picks.
he doesn't scout europe
he's conservative about giving minutes to young players
Langdon's wikipedia page has 0 information about his front office work. Must be very impressive in interviews or by reputation?
BRK is one of the best run organizations in the league. their recovery (still in progress) from that disastrous BOS trade will eventually be viewed as one of the most impressive managerial efforts in NBA history.
   4390. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5673741)
I'm sure it will involve Jerryd Bayless.
pretty much. i've brought up porzingis as a potential target for phase one (dump salary) of the sixers offseason, but acquiring booker would accomplish a similar purpose, too.

phase one (dump salary):
PHI: devin booker
PHO: fultz, bayless, TLC, #10

phase two (sign lebron):
sign lebron

phase three (trade for kawhi):
PHI: kawhi
SAS: saric, covington, pasecniks, #26, #39


PG: simmons // mcconnell, ???
SG: booker // belinelli, ???
SF: kawhi // anderson, korkmaz
PF: lebron // ilyasova, bolden
C: embiid // holmes, ???
   4391. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5673746)
Mike D'Antoni was a genius in Phoenix, a moron in New York and LA, and is now back to a genius in Houston.

Thibs was great in Boston and Chicago, but is now the scapegoat in Minnesota.

Stan Van Gundy was an innovator in Orlando and is a disappointment in Detroit.

That sounds like an argument against count the rings for coaches. I am not sure how you pivot from that to 'ringzzzzz baby'.

It's an argument for coaching rings/wins being a valid starting point. If you take the top two players of the last 30 years (LeBron and MJ), they combine for 9 championships, while the coaches combine for 15.

Selective end points. Drop it to the top 4, and coaches combine for 19, and players combine for 19. Neither Pop nor Jackson ever took a team to the title, that wasn't stacked with talent.

That is mostly just evidence that coaches have much longer shelf-lives than players. Jackson won his first 1991, and his last in 2010. MJ won his first in 1991, and his last in 1998. If you are starting a team though, and can pick one of them, you pick MJ 10 times out of 10. MJ can probably deliver you multiple championships, no matter what coach you put around him. Can Jackson win without elite players?

It is also a matter of timing of course. LeBron ran into an all-time great Warriors team, contender for GTOAT. And a ridiculous Spurs team. And still went 2-5. I don't think Jackson ever went against teams of that calibre. Flip that luck around, and the count looks quite different.
   4392. JJ1986 Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5673750)
PHI: kawhi
SAS: saric, covington, pasecniks, #26, #39
No.
   4393. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5673753)
It is also a matter of timing of course. LeBron ran into an all-time great Warriors team, contender for GTOAT. And a ridiculous Spurs team. And still went 2-5. I don't think Jackson ever went against teams of that calibre.


This would be the Phil Jackson with a record of 5-0 in playoff series *against those same Spurs*.

That sounds like an argument against count the rings for coaches. I am not sure how you pivot from that to 'ringzzzzz baby'.


Well ... I mean, none of those guys won a ring as a head coach. That would be how.
   4394. KronicFatigue Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5673755)
It seems like whenever a camera gets into a team's huddle for those silly clips having the coach on mic, the coach inevitably spews generic stuff. "we gotta keep chipping away, rebound, get back on defense, etc.". What's the deal with that? Is the real coaching done first, and then they just do a little acting for the cameras?
   4395. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5673762)
Well, yeah--no coach is keen on informing the whole world, which most definitely includes the opposing team, of what his strategic plans are.
   4396. aberg Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:17 PM (#5673766)
It seems like whenever a camera gets into a team's huddle for those silly clips having the coach on mic, the coach inevitably spews generic stuff. "we gotta keep chipping away, rebound, get back on defense, etc.". What's the deal with that? Is the real coaching done first, and then they just do a little acting for the cameras?


Something along those lines. There is a rule against the networks broadcasting any tactical coaching insight for fear of the other team keeping tabs on it, so we end up getting the watered down Hoosiers speeches.
   4397. spivey Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5673773)

This would be the Phil Jackson with a record of 5-0 in playoff series *against those same Spurs*.


Phil Jackson coached in 2002-2003. I don't have time to fact check the rest of this, but he wasn't undefeated against the Spurs. I remember gleefully when the Spurs were curbstomping the Lakers in their own building to close out the series and the stadium was half empty and Jack Nicholson was going on some sort of stupid eulogy for the Lakers and ABC let him because for some reason Jack Nicholson was the original Drake and people gave a ####.
   4398. aberg Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5673778)
Jackson and Popovich matched up in:
01- Lakers win 4-0
02- Lakers win 4-1
03- Spurs win 4-2
04- Lakers win 4-2
08- Lakers win 4-1

So, 4-1
   4399. spivey Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5673779)


Something along those lines. There is a rule against the networks broadcasting any tactical coaching insight for fear of the other team keeping tabs on it, so we end up getting the watered down Hoosiers speeches.


Yeah. It's a shame. It's in the post-game press conferences too, though usually at the end of the series/championship, coaches open up a bit more. At the end of the game 1 press conference, Kerr almost seemed like he was going to open up about some strategy around pushing the ball, and then he seemed to catch himself, and just say something like "Oh, we like to push it because they have such a great defense".
   4400. tshipman Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5673797)
Phil Jackson coached in 2002-2003. I don't have time to fact check the rest of this, but he wasn't undefeated against the Spurs. I remember gleefully when the Spurs were curbstomping the Lakers in their own building to close out the series and the stadium was half empty and Jack Nicholson was going on some sort of stupid eulogy for the Lakers and ABC let him because for some reason Jack Nicholson was the original Drake and people gave a ####.


Sorry, miscounted the one year. My fault. 4-1. Was doing it by hand and ###### up.
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