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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6537 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   4601. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5676729)
Because of Bud, or because of those two aging vets?
   4602. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5676736)
Because he's coaching the Bucks.
   4603. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 21, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5676740)
Hahahaha oh right.
   4604. jmurph Posted: May 21, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5676741)
So defeatist, Moses.
   4605. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5676759)
I mean DeRozan is only what four months older than Lillard?
   4606. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5676760)
It’s interesting because of every coach that might conceivably become available in the near future, I think Stotts is the one I would most like to see coach the Bucks. I think Budenholzer is a good get for them, though.
   4607. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5676771)
Fake news.
   4608. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5676777)
Breakfast, man, breakfast.

Budenholzer on the breakfast meeting:

“It was a great opportunity to sit and visit with both Khris and Giannis. To talk a little bit about families and life. I think it was such a smart and important part of the process, you know, with how important both players are to us in the short term and the long term. As a coach, you’re only as good as your players, and so to connect with them on a lot of different levels was important that morning. It’s important going forward. It’s important to connect with really our entire roster.”
   4609. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 21, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5676779)
I mean DeRozan is only what four months older than Lillard?

Yeah, I guess I was conflating Lowry's age with DeRozan's unattractive-to-me game. The strides he made this year in passing and shooting threes largely went out the window in the playoffs, which is exactly what I was worried might happen. McCollum is also a bit more expensive than I remembered his being. Nevertheless, were I a team looking to get some scoring, I'd much rather sign up to pay McCollum $28m-ish for the next few years than DeRozen. I'd rather have Lillard than either, but I can't imagine the Blazers would trade him.
   4610. aberg Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5676794)
Yes, Portland can probably get more for McCollum right now than Toronto could get for Lowry, but the concept isn't very different. Having two ball-dominant guards has to create some level of diminishing returns, kind of like why Argentina hasn't won the World Cup despite having like half of the top 20 attackers. I still think Toronto would have been better off seeing if they could get something approaching equal value for Lowry on the trade market before firing Casey. Timing those things is much easier on a message board than in reality, though.
   4611. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5676806)
Nice gratuitous comparison with futbol, berg. Well done.
   4612. aberg Posted: May 21, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5676829)
Nice gratuitous comparison with futbol, berg. Well done.


I love soccer, but I understand the game little enough that I just lurk on that thread.
   4613. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: May 21, 2018 at 07:31 PM (#5676841)
I wanted the Wolves to sign Lowry this offseason, and I would love for them to figure out a way to swap Wiggins for him, but that’s not gonna happen.
   4614. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 08:35 PM (#5676882)
Predictions for tonight? I think Cleveland. Not going out on a limb, I know.
   4615. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5676906)
Lebron's a pretty good athlete.
   4616. yo la tengo Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:01 PM (#5676907)
That pass by Love was bonkers a was the catch by LBJ
   4617. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5676910)
I completely agree with van Gundy about those intentional fouls on breaks. I'm sick of them as well.
   4618. SteveF Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5676916)
Intentional fouls on breakaways are the least of this playoffs worries. Dear lord these games are bad.
   4619. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5676917)
Boston looks awful. No surprise their young guys are struggling on the road, but Tatum and Brown are doing almost nothing.
   4620. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5676923)
Should someone check on STIGGLES?
   4621. SteveF Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5676924)
Three more quarters like that and I'll have nailed my prediction!
   4622. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:14 PM (#5676928)
Missed another layup/dunk - I can't believe this.
   4623. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 21, 2018 at 09:45 PM (#5676966)
If LeBron hits every shot I don't like the Celtics' chances.
   4624. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5676987)
It's only 15 points. I think the Celtics can come back. They need Cleveland to cool off--some of these shots are ridiculous that they're hitting.

Most of the adjustments have to be on offense. Brown/Tatum are rushing. There's too much man on man, and not enough off-ball movement. Cleveland struggles when you make them move side to side on defense, and Brown/Tatum are largely letting Cleveland do what they're good at--collapsing at the hoop.
   4625. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:06 PM (#5676994)
It was an interesting first half offensively for Boston. For about half of it they missed good shots, for the other half they couldn't get a decent look. We'll see which way they go in the second half.
   4626. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5677001)
Wow, killer stat from the broadcast: 53% of NBA players last year had G league experience.
   4627. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5677003)
So clearly LBJ and toddlers can't win a championship, but Lebron and a good D1 team?
   4628. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5677009)
Boston made a dunk.

I don't know what Marcus Morris is complaining about. He's a terrible defender and is fouling everyone.
   4629. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:20 PM (#5677010)
####### Christ, if a defender is near the basket, don't get lazy!
   4630. SteveF Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5677012)
The amount of abuse NBA officials take...

I'd have half the teams thrown out by the end of the first quarter.
   4631. Quaker Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5677016)
I bet that stat in ~4626 is A LOT lower if you measured by mins played instead of players.
   4632. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5677020)
Good block? He blew up his hand!
   4633. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5677023)
   4634. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5677025)
I bet that stat in ~4626 is A LOT lower if you measured by mins played instead of players.


Of course it is. It's still progress, though.

When the D league was introduced it was considered a stigma when Patrick O'Bryant got sent down. Now it's totally normal for guys to see time there.

At first it was fringe guys, now it's rotation players and eventually it will be stars.
   4635. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5677028)
Hand is part of the ball.

That was a pretty sequence from Boston to end the quarter.
   4636. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:41 PM (#5677030)
@4632-33:

Ehh ... Nance got a little wrist as well. Mostly ball/hand, but a little wrist. You can see that one go either way, mostly depending on the arena.
   4637. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5677033)
I was being sarcastic. I thought we did the "hand is part of the ball" once about two years or so ago.
   4638. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5677036)
I'm split screen this and the NHL, bit it seems like they're letting a lot of contact go inside on layup/dunks, so even if there was wrist it a consistent no foul (and it shouldn't be one IMO).
   4639. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5677037)
I think the Caps/Cavs are going to hold on.
   4640. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:47 PM (#5677039)
Looking better for the Caps but probably.
   4641. yo la tengo Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:48 PM (#5677041)
I keep thinking I can go to bed, then the Celitics close the gap a bit. Can they whittle it down to five or so?
   4642. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:49 PM (#5677042)
Bron's coming back in. I don't like their chances.
   4643. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5677043)
I like the Celtics going with 2 bigs.
   4644. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5677044)
Jeff Green doing his best to help Boston.
   4645. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5677045)
I sure hope so, but I could see this one breaking any number of directions, many of them bad for the Celtics. To dip into unverifiable subjective assertions, it does feel like the Celtics are figuring out how to play in Cleveland, though.
   4646. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5677046)
[4644] He's unspeakably awful.
   4647. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:54 PM (#5677047)
The Celtics are finally fighting through screens to keep Rozier from getting switched onto LeBron. He was feasting on him earlier.

Edit: Mark Jackson said it just now, but it's also true.
   4648. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5677048)
I mean, they pull Green out and score 4 straight. He's terrible. Kills their offense.
   4649. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5677049)
Mahoney:

Whenever LeBron hunts down Terry Rozier for a mismatch in this series, I can’t help but think that, in a perfect world, he would be tormenting a healthy Kyrie instead.
   4650. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:01 PM (#5677052)
I don't see what Boston likes about Morris. He should be out, and Smart in.
   4651. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:04 PM (#5677054)
Should've kept Rozier in. Morris is a tool. He's played terribly all game.
   4652. tshipman Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:06 PM (#5677055)
Ty Lue is dressed ridiculously. That vest looks like a corset.
   4653. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:12 PM (#5677059)
I don't see what Boston likes about Morris

Smart, Brown, Tatum = 6 permutations of wing switches on the ball
Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris = 12 permutations of wing switches on the ball

Add in Ojeleye and the Celtics can keep aggressive on wing switches for the whole game without too much risk of size mismatches while still rotating guys out for rest. Morris has terrible shot selection and the least discipline on defense, though: he can be infuriating, but I'm usually glad Boston has him on the roster.
   4654. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5677060)
Yeah, Cleveland blew past him all night, and his decision making is questionable.
   4655. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5677061)
Wasn't he being billed as a LeBron stopper coming into this series? It's going as well for him as it did for Gerald Wilkins back in the day.
   4656. JC in DC Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5677062)
That's really a low blow, Moses.
   4657. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: May 21, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5677066)
To dip into unverifiable subjective assertions, it does feel like the Celtics are figuring out how to play in Cleveland, though.
This is nothing resembling proof, but the Celtics' team +/- by quarter is in line: -16, +1, +2, +4

Might just mean the Cavs have older legs, I suppose, but I'll stick with my biases for now.
   4658. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 22, 2018 at 12:01 AM (#5677070)
I just can't stop being wrong about the Eastern Conference playoffs.
   4659. tshipman Posted: May 22, 2018 at 12:44 AM (#5677078)

Smart, Brown, Tatum = 6 permutations of wing switches on the ball
Smart, Brown, Tatum, Morris = 12 permutations of wing switches on the ball

Add in Ojeleye and the Celtics can keep aggressive on wing switches for the whole game without too much risk of size mismatches while still rotating guys out for rest. Morris has terrible shot selection and the least discipline on defense, though: he can be infuriating, but I'm usually glad Boston has him on the roster.


Yeah, but all the switching is kind of killing the Celtics.

They're not able to stay at home on the 3p shooters, and LeBron is just killing Terry Rozier and Tatum whenever they get on him. Rozier's too short and Tatum is too slim.

IMO, the Celtics look a lot better vs. LeBron when they go with Baynes and Horford in the front court with just two of Brown, Morris and Smart. The extra big allows them to go over and not get burned at the rim. Of course, it gums up the offense, but you can't win with LeBron shooting 80%, so you gotta make some choices.
   4660. TFTIO ought to Stick with Ostriches Posted: May 22, 2018 at 07:25 AM (#5677100)
Ty Lue is dressed ridiculously. That vest looks like a corset

That dude looks really, really, really unhealthy to me. Like, moments away from a massive sledgehammer of a stroke unhealthy.
   4661. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5677127)
[4632] The hand is considered “part of the ball” when it is in contact with the ball and contact with a players hand when it is in contact with the ball is not a foul.

I find this rule absolutely absurd, fwiw (nothing).

I think it kind of makes sense when a block is started and is on the ball, and then the blocking hand slides and gets a bit of hand. But LeBron's block in game 2 that we were arguing about on Baynes, iirc, that *only* prevented a Baynes dunk because he went across Baynes hand and separated from the ball. It was all hand contact that caused the miss.

I feel like the play is reffed quite inconsistently anyways, generally because it's a really quick play that's tough to get in real time. And there's the wrist/top part of the forearm that's often hit a bit in these.
   4662. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5677131)
Take away Boston collectively acting as though they'd never before seen a basketball, rim, or a Cleveland Cavalier in the first quarter last night, and I thought there were some positives!

Sigh. That wasn't a must-win by any means, but I think that was a winnable game for them after the terrible start, and I don't like the odds of Boston winning 4 games at home in this series so they're probably going to need to take one in Cleveland at some point.
   4663. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5677134)
But LeBron's block in game 2 that we were arguing about on Baynes, iirc, that *only* prevented a Baynes dunk because he went across Baynes hand and separated from the ball. It was all hand contact that caused the miss.

I think pulling the hand away from the ball is a foul (I'm talking generally- I don't remember the specifics of the play you're referring to, just that I thought it was a foul in real time). The rule very specifically talks about contact being allowable when the hand is in contact with the ball.
   4664. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5677152)
IMO, the Celtics look a lot better vs. LeBron when they go with Baynes and Horford in the front court with just two of Brown, Morris and Smart. The extra big allows them to go over and not get burned at the rim. Of course, it gums up the offense, but you can't win with LeBron shooting 80%, so you gotta make some choices.

I don't know what the hell they should do, but I'm open to this. Waiting for last night's stats to refresh, but in game 3, when LeBron also made everything, they actually guarded him reasonably well, he just made every damn thing. He was 3-3 very tightly guarded and 5-9 tightly guarded. I mean ####, some of these shots he's making are just absurd.

Boston was +2 in Horford's 42 minutes last night, making them -11 in the 6 minutes he sat. That's... not ideal.
   4665. strong silence Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5677164)
How is "tightly guarded" defined? If there is a mismatch, say a 6 foot player tightly guarding LeBron, is that very tightly or just tightly or something else? I think I'm mostly interested in your take on effective defense against him. It must include a minimum of two players right?
   4666. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5677175)
How is "tightly guarded" defined? If there is a mismatch, say a 6 foot player tightly guarding LeBron, is that very tightly or just tightly or something else? I think I'm mostly interested in your take on effective defense against him. It must include a minimum of two players right?

I don't think it takes into account who is doing the guarding, as far as I know. So that's a fair point.

To the last question, I generally think Boston's plan of switching the various wings onto LeBron, and even switching Horford onto LeBron, and doing their best to stay home on the shooters is the right play. But he's LeBron and it's not always going to work. And as tship points out, they can't let Rozier get switched onto him too much, they have to do the reswitch (I'm blanking on the term- I mean having someone come over to bail Rozier out after the switch).

EDIT: Also I'm a dumb- those shooting numbers from 4664 are last night's game, not game 3.
   4667. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5677178)
I did not have the chance to watch the last two games.

LeBron’s All-World Defense Can Exist Only When His Teammates Step Up argues that at least for Game 3 LeBron played very good to great defense because he reduced the amount of energy he was expending on offense.

Does that make sense with what you guys saw?
   4668. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5677180)
LeBron’s All-World Defense Can Exist Only When His Teammates Step Up argues that at least for Game 3 LeBron played very good to great defense because he reduced the amount of energy he was expending on offense.

In game 3, Cleveland made everything at the start and Boston missed everything and it was, I believe, 20-4 at one point in the first quarter, and the game was essentially over. I mean I kind of thought that was the entire story of game 3, to be overly reductive for a minute. The Cavs ended 17-34 from 3, Boston was 6-22.

I read that piece last night and thought it was interesting, but I also suspect that Boston would happily take reduced effort on offense LeBron/improved effort on defense vs the opposite. And last night LeBron had a 41.8 USG so that was clearly not his strategy for winning game 4.
   4669. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5677208)
Does that make sense with what you guys saw?

Yep, I said as much at the time.

4668

USG rate aside, I still think even last night LeBron had to work less on offense than he did in the BOS games because Hill is bringing the ball up and handling the initial trigger action more. Due to how much they rely on LeBron, CLE has to steal any moment of rest they can and I think Lue has done a really nice job of managing that the past two games. I still think CLE is in a dangerous spot though with the lack of time off between games.
   4670. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5677227)
USG rate aside, I still think even last night LeBron had to work less on offense than he did in the BOS games because Hill is bringing the ball up and handling the initial trigger action more.

Fair enough, but I didn't really see any sort of renewed defensive dominance from LeBron last night, which was the idea advanced in that piece.
   4671. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5677229)
Fair enough, but I didn't really see any sort of renewed defensive dominance from LeBron last night, which was the idea advanced in that piece.

G3 I thought his defense was great. Last night it was fine, but "fine" is much more active/effective than the defense he was playing in Games 1 and 2 where he just stood around doing nothing while conserving energy. Jaylen Brown, in particular, was able to get a ton of wide open looks off of that.
   4672. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5677234)
Legendary shotblocker Kyle Korver made sure that didn't happen last night.

(I seriously don't know how Brown recovers from that first quarter, my god.)
   4673. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5677245)
   4674. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 22, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5677249)
Yeah, Korver has averaged 0.5 blocks/36 in his career, which is higher than I expected. I guess generally being a smart team defender and being long goes a long way.
   4675. Rally Posted: May 22, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5677312)
Watching Lebron last night reminded me of playing against overmatched opponents, like a high school senior playing with his little brother's junior high friends. He doesn't play 100% all out to beat them on every play, sometimes he sits back and lets his teammates get involved. As long as his team is winning he doesn't feel like running up the score. But if the score ever gets tight he can take it to the rim any time he wants and there's not a damn thing the little kids can do to stop him.
   4676. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5677361)
Yeah, Korver has averaged 0.5 blocks/36 in his career, which is higher than I expected. I guess generally being a smart team defender and being long goes a long way.


Two dudes that I think are underrated defensively are Korver and JJ Redick, maybe partly because they're white. Redick has short arms and you wouldn't think it, but he fights his physical limitations to a draw on defense instead of being the matador you'd maybe expect (about neutral on/off over the past several seasons). Korver was a defensive plus in his prime (per on/off) and remains solid on that end even today. There are some caveats (eg Redick's off-court is disproportionately noted arsonist Jamal Crawford's time for many of his seasons), but generally both are better on D than you might think.
   4677. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5677388)
Anyone familiar with this blog or these authors?
   4678. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5677394)
He doesn't play 100% all out to beat them on every play, sometimes he sits back and lets his teammates get involved. As long as his team is winning he doesn't feel like running up the score. But if the score ever gets tight he can take it to the rim any time he wants and there's not a damn thing the little kids can do to stop him.


Amazing how many times the narrative has shifted between ‘the Cavs are a mess’ and ‘the Cavs are unstoppable’ this postseason.
   4679. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5677408)
Amazing how many times the narrative has shifted between ‘the Cavs are a mess’ and ‘the Cavs are unstoppable’ this postseason.

Eh, I think the Cavs are still a mess, honestly! It's just that LeBron is very good and at his best tilts things overwhelmingly in his team's favor.
   4680. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 22, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5677411)
Watching Lebron last night reminded me of playing against overmatched opponents, like a high school senior playing with his little brother's junior high friends.


Completely agree with that. Specifics aside, last night's game matched a surprising number of Celtics wins this season: fall behind early, get serious, tighten up the defense and chip away until they've caught up in the second half and have all the momentum. They stayed disciplined, they worked to get better shots in the second half, and kept even with the Cavs but couldn't get ahead of them. The one good run they had was when LeBron was on the bench, and as soon as he came back in the wheels came off. The Celtics won a lot of games this year by being disciplined and just good enough to claw out of a hole they put themselves in with a slow start, but that doesn't work against LeBron in the playoffs, certainly not with his teammates playing well on their home court.
   4681. Rally Posted: May 22, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5677450)
Eh, I think the Cavs are still a mess, honestly! It's just that LeBron is very good and at his best tilts things overwhelmingly in his team's favor.


Me too. In 4675 I was definitely not saying anything about the Cavs being unstoppable. I'm rooting for Lebron but now that we're down to best of 3 with only 1 more game in Cleveland I'd have to go with Celtics if money were involved. Lebron is the HS senior in my analogy, but the Celtic kids are a lot better than the Cavalier kids, and their coach is a lot better too. While Lebron is unstoppable he might not be able to overcome this.

Two dudes that I think are underrated defensively are Korver and JJ Redick, maybe partly because they're white. Redick has short arms and you wouldn't think it, but he fights his physical limitations to a draw on defense instead of being the matador you'd maybe expect (about neutral on/off over the past several seasons). Korver was a defensive plus in his prime (per on/off) and remains solid on that end even today. There are some caveats (eg Redick's off-court is disproportionately noted arsonist Jamal Crawford's time for many of his seasons), but generally both are better on D than you might think.


Race might be a part of it, but another part is how good they are at shooting. They could be complete defensive liabilities and you'd still want them on the court, at least part time in the right lineup. Marcus Smart on the other hand, he's a great defender but you can tell that from his shooting percentage. If he couldn't defend he wouldn't be allowed on the court. Historically I think Ray Allen was an underrated defender, at least in his younger years. It's just there was no need to pay attention to his defense because his shooting was so great.
   4682. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5677453)
Brian Grubb @briancgrubb
last night i dreamed that joel embiid hurt himself while mocking sean hannity at a driving range and the resulting injury would keep him out for two years

no more cold medicine at bedtime
   4683. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5677473)
Extremely unsurprising All Rookie 1st Team named: Simmons, Mitchel, Tatum, Kuzma, Markannen.

Somehow Josh Jackson got a 1st team vote, which seems like some kind of clerical error.
   4684. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: May 22, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5677497)
Extremely unsurprising All Rookie 1st Team named: Simmons, Mitchel, Tatum, Kuzma, Markannen.
#notawookie
   4685. Rally Posted: May 22, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5677520)
I understand he was in a different draft class, but Simmons played his first NBA game last year. Either he was a rookie or else he never had a rookie year. I don't quite get why anyone would even debate that, coming from a baseball perspective. Doesn't matter if I drafted you in 2017 or in 2003 and you finally made it through the minors. If you haven't passed playing time thresholds, you're a rookie.
   4686. Booey Posted: May 22, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5677531)
I understand he was in a different draft class, but Simmons played his first NBA game last year. Either he was a rookie or else he never had a rookie year. I don't quite get why anyone would even debate that, coming from a baseball perspective. Doesn't matter if I drafted you in 2017 or in 2003 and you finally made it through the minors. If you haven't passed playing time thresholds, you're a rookie.


I honestly think it was mostly tongue in cheek. Mitchell's hoodies, the Boston fans chant, etc. I mean yeah, I'm sure Mitchell legitimately wants to win it, and I'm sure plenty of Celtics fans would like to see Tatum win it, but the whole "controversy" has always just felt like a friendly rivalry/having fun sort of thing to me. I don't think anyone is actually going to be OUTRAGED!!! when Simmons wins, not even on the typical "bad choice for a sports award" level (like, say, Palmeiro winning a gold glove as a DH). Whether people think Simmons SHOULD qualify as a rookie or not (of course he should), I think almost everyone understands that the rules in place pretty clearly define him as one.

People I've talked to who say they'd vote for Mitchell seem to be doing so because they legitimately think what he did was more impressive (or because of fanboyism), not because they don't think Simmons should be eligible.
   4687. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5677545)
Everyone I've talked to that says they'd vote for Mitchell seems to be doing so because they legitimately think what he did was more impressive (or because of fanboyism), not because they don't think Simmons should qualify.
mitchell averaged 4.7 more PPG than simmons on 4.9 more FGA/G. he also had .7 fewer TO/G than simmons and a +.2 advantage in FT%. almost literally everything else is advantage simmons.

simmons +4 RPG
simmons +4 APG
simmons +.6 BPG
simmons +.2 SPG
simmons +8 ORTG
simmons +3 DRTG
simmons +3 BPG
simmons +3 PER
simmons +.015 TS%
   4688. jmurph Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:04 PM (#5677549)
The Mitchell argument is a narrative one: he was the primary scorer on a surprisingly (to many) successful team that overcame the loss of their lead scorer.

But yeah obviously Simmons is going to win.
   4689. Booey Posted: May 22, 2018 at 05:34 PM (#5677575)
mitchell averaged 4.7 more PPG than simmons on 4.9 more FGA/G. he also had .7 fewer TO/G than simmons and a +.2 advantage in FT%. almost literally everything else is advantage simmons.

You're ignoring huge differences in FT and 3pt%. But yes, Simmons was better.

The Mitchell argument is a narrative one: he was the primary scorer on a surprisingly (to many) successful team that overcame the loss of their lead scorer.


This. He's the first rookie to lead a playoff team in scoring since Melo in 2004. He's only the 5th ever to do so with this many wins. The others are Wilt in 1960, Kareem (k, Lew Alcindor) in 1970, Bird in 1980, and David Robinson in 1990 (had a nice beginning of every decade trend going there...). He won the dunk contest and broke the rookie record for 3-pt's made. He was crucial to Utah's turnaround that saw them end the year on a 29-6 run after starting out 19-28, including win streaks of 11 and 9 games. He had two 40 pt games. He carried the Jazz at times in the postseason, including that 38 pt closeout game against OKC. And he did it all as a 13th pick rather than a #1 pick.

Basically, he made the Jazz relevant again when few expected them to be so. Most people seemed to expect the Sixers to make the playoffs in the East (though, granted, not as a 3rd seed with 52 wins and a 17 game winning streak).

So yes, Simmons would get my vote too. But I understand the support for Mitchell, and not just because he plays for my team.

Edit: And despite the debate, I suspect Simmons ends up winning fairly handily.
   4690. Moeball Posted: May 22, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5677654)
Looked at the chart in 4677 and I have some questions. First of all, how are these ratings calculated? I see that of everyday starters, A. Davis is indeed at the top of the list. But I also noticed bench players Jordan Bell and David West very high on the list which made me wonder - does Golden State essentially have a defensive "system" that artificially makes their players work more cohesively as a defensive unit?
   4691. sardonic Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:12 PM (#5677724)
This is not looking great for the Rockets.
   4692. JC in DC Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5677733)
They're really not as good as GSW.
   4693. JC in DC Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5677738)
Eric Gordon looks much more aggressive than either Paul or Harden. Which is not a good sign, as you said, sardonic.
   4694. sardonic Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5677739)
Klay Thompson just went down on his knee and went to the locker room after staying on the court for a couple plays. Golden State is potentially down to Curry, Livingston, Nick Young and Quinn Cook as healthy guards/wings.
   4695. JC in DC Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5677745)
I know people hate Harden's game, but he is a genius at drawing fouls. Has anyone ever been better?
   4696. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5677751)
Well well well
   4697. sardonic Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5677752)
Klay is back on the bench and ready to come in. Harden has definitely woken up though, props to him for making it a game.
   4698. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5677753)
I know people hate Harden's game, but he is a genius at drawing fouls. Has anyone ever been better?

Thankfully, no.
   4699. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5677759)
I know people hate Harden's game, but he is a genius at drawing fouls.


I don't understand the use of the word "but" here.
   4700. JC in DC Posted: May 22, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5677760)
Ain't you funny?

Speaking of bad things: is there really another Jurassic Park movie?
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