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Saturday, February 17, 2018

OT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  eliminationist rhetoric and precognition.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 17, 2018 at 02:09 AM | 6537 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   4901. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 24, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5679175)
floop
   4902. aberg Posted: May 24, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5679176)
He had a career year, and Curry missed a bunch of games. I'm not really sure who would be more deserving, Curry aside. Seems like he was better than Westbrook, and his team was (slightly) better, too. Oladipo, maybe? First team seems right for Lillard.


Lillard also benefited from placement within the conference. They finished third, which was a sort of breakthrough for them. In reality, they finished 2 games out of 8th and got swept in the first round. It's a lot easier to talk yourself into a high scorer on a 3 seed in a career year on the first team than a guy who habitually plays no defense on a stagnant team that can't sniff a playoff series win.
   4903. Booey Posted: May 24, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5679177)
Who would take Towns's place on the 1st team? Jokic?

Towns is on the 3rd team. He'd just switch spots with Aldridge.
   4904. tshipman Posted: May 24, 2018 at 05:40 PM (#5679179)
Jonathan Givony: Barring a trade, I'd say Doncic being drafted in the top three is no better than 50-50. I've felt an increasing disparity the past few months between the public's bullish perception of Doncic -- which we share -- and what NBA executives say privately. While I believe they are overthinking things, the skepticism is a lot more prevalent than expected. You would think a guy like Doncic, who has played in as many big games as any teenage prospect in recent memory, would be relatively immune to these types of ups and downs in his evaluation process, but it seems that's not the case.


In$sider. WTH?


This is one of those instances that make fans feel like they can run an NBA team as well as the professionals. I get that there's other stuff involved, and there are a lot of voices, but man, it really feels like sometimes teams outthink themselves with this stuff.

You've got the best player in the second best league in the world coming over at 19 and teams are falling in love with a guy who didn't show he could play center (btw, the least important position in the NBA right now) in college.
   4905. tshipman Posted: May 24, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5679183)
He largely did match Baynes up against Thompson in game 3, though he arguably started to do it too late in the game (midway through quarter 1). He went away from the matchup in game 4 and the Celtics actually played better.

Maybe they just need Baynes on Thompson in the first quarter. Thompson seems to run out of gas as the game goes on.

I think the Stevens praise has more to do with the fact he has the Celtics -- a team you (well, to be honest, I basically agreed with you) thought was a 47-48 win team with a healthy Irving and Hayward -- one win from the NBA finals.


This is a fair point and my line about Stevens was a little trollish.

Re: Stevens: I think he's a good coach, but I think he benefits from fans looking to give credit to someone. Like, the Celtics have (somewhat flukily) overplayed their record for a couple of seasons, and so fans look for someone to credit. None of the players deserve obvious credit, so the coach gets it. (He also looks the part.)

I think most of the conversations about coaching in the NBA are bad because it's really hard to tell who does a great job as a coach from the outside. As a result, a lot of it turns into, "My dad can beat up your dad."

I think if you ignored the media comments, the sideline demeanor, and just looked at lineup and scheme adjustments, you'd probably see that most NBA coaches are very, very similar to each other, and probably some one we didn't expect would grade out as the best.
   4906. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5679189)
I couldn't disagree with you more, tship. Coaching is either a skill, or it isn't. There's no reason to think it's not a thing; indeed, there are lots of reasons to think it is a thing, including that teams pay good money for it, and including what you've got embedded in your own critique: "the Celtics have (somewhat flukily) overplayed their record for a couple of seasons, and so fans look for someone to credit. None of the players deserve obvious credit, so the coach gets it". I don't have any idea what the parenthetical adds. Their record has been better than their talent for a couple of seasons. That was true of Butler as well: they advanced farther than it seems like they should have. At why point wouldn't you look to the coach as an explanation for that?

Another thing: there are "skills" associated with coaching, and there's a wide range of them. Some are cerebral: capacity to scheme, innovate, think quickly under pressure, see things others miss, and so on. Some are not, and are about charisma and those ineffable qualities of leadership. (For instance, I think we go overboard at times in our criticisms of Doc. Whatever people think of him, he can lead men. Guys seem to respect him.) Stevens gives every evidence of having some of these qualities: his players respect him, they remark how prepared he is, he's calm at all times and projects confidence, and everyone says he's uncommonly well-prepared.

Maybe he's a bit overrated. That's hard to know. But he's pretty obviously good at his job, and I don't see the need to overthink his being a vital piece of why his teams seem to outperform their talent.
   4907. tshipman Posted: May 24, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5679194)
I couldn't disagree with you more, tship. Coaching is either a skill, or it isn't. There's no reason to think it's not a thing; indeed, there are lots of reasons to think it is a thing, including that teams pay good money for it, and including what you've got embedded in your own critique: "the Celtics have (somewhat flukily) overplayed their record for a couple of seasons, and so fans look for someone to credit. None of the players deserve obvious credit, so the coach gets it". I don't have any idea what the parenthetical adds. Their record has been better than their talent for a couple of seasons. That was true of Butler as well: they advanced farther than it seems like they should have. At why point wouldn't you look to the coach as an explanation for that?


Because there's no evidence that great coaches habitually overperform pythag. I agree that coaching is a skill, and I'm not trying to say that it isn't. But if coaching is a skill, it isn't manifested in overperforming pythag.

   4908. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: May 24, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5679197)
Because there's no evidence that great coaches habitually overperform pythag
This is a good point, but it also strikes me as moving the goalposts a little. Pythag is a really useful tool for evaluating team quality, especially w/r/t wins, but the calculation of pythag is based on points scored and points scored against, both of which are influenced by coaching. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here or ignoring the disclaimer in your post, but I think the first metric you put forth is to prone to confounding to be particularly useful here: to try to measure coaching, we'd need another.
   4909. tshipman Posted: May 24, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5679199)
This is a good point, but it also strikes me as moving the goalposts a little. Pythag is a really useful tool for evaluating team quality, especially w/r/t wins, but the calculation of pythag is based on points scored and points scored against, both of which are influenced by coaching. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here or ignoring the disclaimer in your post, but I think the first metric you put forth is to prone to confounding to be particularly useful here: to try to measure coaching, we'd need another.


JC said that he didn't see what the parenthetical of "somewhat flukily" added. I attempted to clarify that I meant that the Celtics have overperformed pythag (and in opponent shooting on open 3pers, but that prompted a long and pointless discussion last time so I left it out).

Boston has gone +4 and +5 the last two years by pythag (and that understates it because their 3p shooting defense has been lucky), so that's kind of what I was talking about.
   4910. this is normal 57i66135. move on, find a new slant Posted: May 24, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5679205)
Perhaps the ongoing moral decay of his employer will be just the nudge Izzo needs to go to the NBA?
izzo is not a bystander to that.

izzo let an assistant stay on staff after punching a woman in a bar in 2010, and two of his other players faced no repercussions after being accused of rape.

granted, that's not as shocking as nassar's 500+ victims, or the MSU football team's 20 (alleged) rapists over the last decade, but izzo was willing to take advantage of MSU's institutional disinterest, and even after the scandal was brought into the spotlight, his response was tepid, at best.


to be clear, izzo isn't among the worst actors at MSU, but his hands aren't clean, either.
   4911. aberg Posted: May 24, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5679228)
izzo let an assistant stay on staff after punching a woman in a bar in 2010, and two of his other players faced no repercussions after being accused of rape.


If that's the standard then Boeheim should've been fired about a dozen times by now.
   4912. PJ Martinez Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:19 PM (#5679240)
If that's the standard then Boeheim should've been fired about a dozen times by now.

Sounds about right.
   4913. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 24, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5679246)
(For instance, I think we go overboard at times in our criticisms of Doc. Whatever people think of him, he can lead men. Guys seem to respect him.)


This may very well be true. (I’ve posted around here that I feel this way about Dusty Baker; I don’t think leadership is bunk, at all.) But I have a nagging question: If Doc is such a Leader of Men, why don’t his teams win more? At no point did the CP3/DJ/BG Clips overachieve, and playoff disappointments were an annual tradition for them.

The nepotism is also a real bad look for a guy alleged to be a great leader.
   4914. JJ1986 Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5679262)
I'm sure the Rockets will hit an open 3 at some point.
   4915. SteveF Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5679269)
Ugh. This feels like another 30 point game.
   4916. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5679271)
If that's the standard then Boeheim should've been fired about a dozen times by now.


Say what you will about Coach K, but his players rape the right way.
   4917. JJ1986 Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5679274)
Livingston-Cook-Durant-Bell-West played together for 3 possessions during the regular season.
   4918. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5679275)
What's the smallest first quarter lead we've seen in the conference finals so far? It seems like 6 points might be the closest game.
   4919. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5679277)
GSW should be down 15. Kerr doing that thing again where his team is in a tight spot and he goes to a really odd ball lineup.
   4920. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:34 PM (#5679279)
Hard to know why Kerr liked that 1st quarter. As you said, NJ, they should be way down. Their defense has been really vulnerable.
   4921. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5679282)
Both teams look tired.

EDIT: [4920] Kerr probably liked it from the perspective that they should have been down by double digits, but weren't.
   4922. SteveF Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5679284)
Every time Harden heaves one up it looks like the ball is made of cement.
   4923. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5679285)
David West looks really old. Maybe in the huddle they agree to stop throwing the ball for him to run towards?
   4924. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5679286)
it's like, this is fun in a weird way, but we really have reached a point where 3-point variance means 90% of everything.

we're left to argue about the scraps, intellectually speaking.

I think a significant rule change is needed...
   4925. SteveF Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:45 PM (#5679290)
I think that maybe shot variance (even on 2 pointers) always kind of mattered more than we realized.
   4926. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5679291)
Curry's out again.
   4927. JJ1986 Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5679292)
PJ Tucker showing off the moves.
   4928. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5679294)
Clint Capela is much better than I thought he was. I've been particularly impressed with his ability to find shooters. So many bigs of his type struggle with that.
   4929. sardonic Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5679296)
This feels like the reverse of Game 3, when the Rockets should be way up but you look up and it's a 5 point game, GS ball with 2 minutes left in the half. Scrappy as hell, did not see this series turning into the rock fight it's become.
   4930. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5679298)
Houston with 23 [!] 3s--feels like 20 have been pretty open...
   4931. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5679306)
Other than the nice first half by their big two of Clint Capela and PJ Tucker, the Rockets have looked terrible on the whole.

EDIT: The good news is that a lot of that terribleness is missing wide open shots.
   4932. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:04 PM (#5679307)
LOL. Maybe Harden should be resting instead of shooting after 10pm? They've gotten looks, they just been putting up bricks, as Steve said.
   4933. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5679310)
Clint Capela is much better than I thought he was. I've been particularly impressed with his ability to find shooters. So many bigs of his type struggle with that.

So I don't disagree with this, but I also think he's been- I think "exposed" might get overused, but maybe a difficult fit for this series? He was -9 in game 4, a game they won. -2 so far tonight. That's certainly not everything, but it was something I was thinking about in the last game.
   4934. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5679313)
To echo the sentiment of the rest of you, Golden State should be thrilled to be level right now. But they'll probably need to be much better in the second half.
   4935. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5679325)
I love Shaq. I just love listening to him.
   4936. sardonic Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5679328)
For what it's worth, I wasn't as sanguine about the Warriors's chances with Iguoadala out -- I think he's easily worth a couple points to them. I've been saying since before the series that I think the Rockets are a legit team, so on the road, those couple points matter even though he's only their 5th best player.

The team's somewhat questionable roster construction and personnel choices are being exposed too: being an Iguodala or Livingston injury away from relying on Jordan Bell or Quinn Cook is just not a good situation to be in. Giving Nick Young the full midlevel and having him not even play in this game, and having Omri Casspi not work out to the point where you cut him instead of JaVale McGee going into the playoffs is rough. The team desperately needs more smallball wing minutes.
   4937. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5679335)
Did Paul just shimmy in Curry's face?
   4938. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:34 PM (#5679336)
I keep forgetting to post this: all series long, I've found TNT's production lacking. They've missed stuff and had to replay it later, I like Chris Webber, but Reggie stinks, and Marv isn't good anymore. He's making mistakes all the time.
   4939. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:36 PM (#5679339)
man, it feels like the Warriors leave a lot of points on the table with the kind of hot dog passing that works fine against a mediocre team in March....
   4940. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5679341)
First time one of those audio segments has ever been insightful. Wow. I'm legitimately shocked.
   4941. sardonic Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:42 PM (#5679342)
Kerr has come a long way since having Anderson Varejao on the court to decide Game 7 of the 2016 Finals. He's gone only 9 deep tonight so far, and the Warriors bench has only combined for 1 more minute the D'Antoni's bench, which so far is only Eric Gordon and Gerald Green.
   4942. sardonic Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5679345)
One nugget I read was that the Rockers were more aggressive than typical about getting into Durant's plant foot when he was shooting mid range jumpers in Game 4, basically exclusively playing him to shoot. Nice to see him adjust a little bit and turn that against CP3 for the foul just then.
   4943. PJ Martinez Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:46 PM (#5679346)
How is that a foul on Ariza?
   4944. An Athletic in Powderhorn™ Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:50 PM (#5679349)
First time one of those audio segments has ever been insightful. Wow. I'm legitimately shocked.
As always, I only turned the sound back on after they started showing gameplay again. What was said?
   4945. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5679350)
Paul and Harden have just been awful so far. Will one of them show up in the 4th?
   4946. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:55 PM (#5679354)
Asked and answered by Paul!
   4947. JJ1986 Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5679357)
Chris Paul is hunting his former teammate.
   4948. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:56 PM (#5679359)
that last Paul three was worth about nine, I think
   4949. PJ Martinez Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5679361)
As always, I only turned the sound back on after they started showing gameplay again. What was said?

Kerr told Durant a story about a game where Jordan was scoring but not trusting his teammates, and they couldn't get a consistent rhythm going. Phil Jackson told Jordan to trust Paxson. Kerr told Durant he wanted him to trust his teammates earlier in the play -- not just after he drove but as soon as they were open.
   4950. An Athletic in Powderhorn™ Posted: May 24, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5679362)
How is that a foul on Ariza?
It isn't. I'll take it, but that is a blown call.
   4951. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:00 PM (#5679364)
Harden needs to have a good last 8 minutes to win here. Both teams have been wasteful but that happens. Great competition
   4952. JJ1986 Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:02 PM (#5679365)
Harden looks ####### exhausted.
   4953. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5679367)
GSW should find Thompson more often. He's been on all game, but they haven't looked his way enough.
   4954. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:08 PM (#5679370)
There have been a lot of open missed 3s on both sides. Man this is fun to see the Warriors get pushed.
   4955. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:12 PM (#5679372)
Chris Paul is more clutch than James Harden. Fact. Even Harden knows it.
   4956. PJ Martinez Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:12 PM (#5679373)
Cool to see Olajuwon cheering them on.
   4957. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5679380)
Oh man Paul hurt his hammy. That could put him out of the series.
   4958. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:25 PM (#5679382)
In real time looked like Draymond had an open scoring lane before that kickout to Cook. What a mistake.
   4959. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:26 PM (#5679383)
Another bad play by Draymond. Not a great 20 seconds.
   4960. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:28 PM (#5679385)
Dumb play by Curry: a difficult two, too early in the clock--worst possible shot to take...
   4961. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5679386)
Which of these teams has played in three straight finals again?
   4962. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5679388)
Those last 3 GSW possessions Durant didn't even touch the ball right? Man, easy to say when they don't go well, but I don't know about that one.
   4963. JC in DC Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:30 PM (#5679389)
I was about to post the same thing, murph.
   4964. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5679391)
Be nice to see Paul and Iggy OK for game 6....
   4965. SteveF Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5679393)
James Harden breathes a sigh of relief.
   4966. aberg Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5679395)
When I predicted a Finals rematch, you knew that I meant 86 Finals, right?
   4967. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5679396)
Be nice to see Paul and Iggy OK for game 6....

At least Paul.
   4968. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5679397)
I know some people are tired of the narrative that the Warriors either win or lose, they're never beaten, but I don't know what else to take from that game! Houston couldn't make a shot but Golden State just couldn't take care of the damn basketball and lost a winnable game.
   4969. sardonic Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM (#5679398)
Another tight game. You can slice this a lot of ways, but to me it's the depth: Tucker, Gorden, Ariza and Gerald Green significantly outplayed Looney, Bell, Livingston, West, Cook and Young.

Even sans Iguodala I'd have the Warriors favored at home in Game 6. Of course, it's all about Chris Paul now. It's going to take a miracle for the Rockets to win without him, IMO, and pretty tough if he's out there at less than 100%
   4970. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5679399)
I don't know what the numbers say but in real time it felt like too many forced Durant shots (and misses) in the 4th. I had the volume down but it looked like Kerr was imploring them to run the offense more at times (they showed a replay that looked like he was instructing them to do so, at least).
   4971. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5679401)
You can slice this a lot of ways, but to me it's the depth: Tucker, Gorden, Ariza and Gerald Green significantly outplayed Looney, Bell, Livingston, West, Cook and Young.

Houston only played 7 guys!
   4972. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5679403)
Durant 0 (zero) assists on the game....and it's not selfishness; the guy doesn't have elite court vision
   4973. sardonic Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5679404)
Houston only played 7 guys!


I know! Their depth is better though. The Rockets have 4 wings all relatively in their prime. Everyone but Green is a solid NBA rotation player/starter type. The Warriors have Livingston, a rookie, a G League guy, a third year player coming off two years lost to hip surgery, a decent vet PF/C who's a bad matchup in the series, and whatever happened to Nick Young. In a game like today's, they desperately needed Young or Livingston to match any of the Rockets key reserves, but they didn't.
   4974. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5679405)
Yeah there's the replay, Draymond has to finish that drive one on one down 1 instead of kicking to Cook. That's at minimum a foul, more likely a layup or dunk.
   4975. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:43 PM (#5679406)
I know some people are tired of the narrative that the Warriors either win or lose, they're never beaten, but I don't know what else to take from that game! Houston couldn't make a shot but Golden State just couldn't take care of the damn basketball and lost a winnable game.

Both teams seem very tired.

I also take it as if Houston shot well they’d win by 25. Houston is maybe the only team that this Golden State team has faced that could win a game not playing well.
   4976. Howie Menckel Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:47 PM (#5679407)
Both teams seem very tired.

probably true. but that was the worst finish for a tight, crucial playoff game I can remember. they all looked punch-drunk
   4977. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5679408)
Yeah, this series makes me want a 68-game regular season....
   4978. tshipman Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5679409)
The bottom line is that there have been two close games and the Rockets won both. They're very likely to win the series in 7 now.
   4979. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: May 24, 2018 at 11:54 PM (#5679412)
The bottom line is that there have been two close games and the Rockets won both. They're very likely to win the series in 7 now.

Not if CP3 is hurt.
   4980. JC in DC Posted: May 25, 2018 at 12:05 AM (#5679415)
Fatigue or whatever, the quality of play has been very low. GS had what, 18 turnovers? And neither team's offense was smooth, and the defense wasn't great, either.
   4981. KronicFatigue Posted: May 25, 2018 at 12:15 AM (#5679416)
Yeah there's the replay, Draymond has to finish that drive one on one down 1 instead of kicking to Cook. That's at minimum a foul, more likely a layup or dunk.


That felt like a silly NBA Jam type move in real time. Jump up in the air for a dunk and as you're spinning and spinning you kick it out to your teammate for the three.
   4982. spanx for the memories Posted: May 25, 2018 at 12:20 AM (#5679417)
For a team that has won as many games as they have, the Warriors seems to have a very low crunch time IQ.
   4983. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 25, 2018 at 12:56 AM (#5679421)
We are in the perfect storm setting in both series, home team with more star power in game 6 down 3-2 with legitimate suspense in game 7 if they can pull it out and lots of eyeballs. If the refs don't favor GSW and CLE (if needed), folks who complain about biased officiating should probably consider taking a knee.
   4984. Howie Menckel Posted: May 25, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5679424)

Basketball Reference
‏Verified account @bball_ref

That was Stephen Curry's 6th shot to take the lead in the last 0:24 of a playoff game

He's missed all 6

...........


(I once put together a Reggie Miller stat that was quite similar (but not identical). they both made a ton of clutch shots in the playoffs, obviously, so it's not some slam on either. it was just odd that the classic extremely limited scenarios mostly/always didn't work for either of them.)
   4985. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 25, 2018 at 08:36 AM (#5679436)
5Dimes series odds

Cleveland +167
Boston -178

Golden State -125
Houston +115
   4986. sardonic Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:09 AM (#5679448)
Just off the top of my head I remember Curry's shot while getting tackled into the corner by Anthony Davis with time expiring on Game three of the 2015 playoffs... Looked it up and turns out it was a game tying, not game winning shot.
   4987. Rally Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:10 AM (#5679449)
probably true. but that was the worst finish for a tight, crucial playoff game I can remember. they all looked punch-drunk


Two in a row where I was completely shocked that GSW couldn't even get a decent scoring opportunity as they took their last play with a chance to tie or take the lead. Some of that is surprisingly clutch defense by Houston, but last night mostly sloppy ball handling by Draymond.
   4988. jmurph Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5679454)
I see Draymond taking the heat but that looked like a bad pass from Curry to me? I guess there's a case Draymond did something he wasn't supposed to do, but I'm unclear on that.
   4989. JC in DC Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:22 AM (#5679457)
We've talked a lot about coaching lately, and I freely grant that there's a lot of our thinking about coaching that's impressionistic. I ask anyway: what do you guys think of Kerr? There's the in-game aspect of that question, and then the broader, "are they prepared" aspect. I'm not sure. When they're rolling people, it's easy to think he's great, they're great, etc. But for a couple of years even he's granted that one of his team's problems is loss of focus/discipline, and they still have that (by his own admission). How much of that is on him?
   4990. . . . . . . Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5679459)
The basketball right now is so ugly and sloppy. Big disappointment.
   4991. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5679461)
If I'm Houston I'd be very inclined to just bench Paul for game 6. Hamstrings are funny things in my experience and if they rush him back I worry he'll reaggravate it for game 7. I'd just see if Harden and the role guys can go off on game 6.

Watching the replays, I don't have a problem with Draymond's kick to Quinn Cook. Their offense is built off kickouts on drives like that. Draymond isn't a great scorer/finisher - he's a passer first. It felt like the lane was open but by the time he got to the lane there was a rotation to the front of the basket (I think by Tucker). I mean, he could have just tried to barrel through him with the momentum, but I think the kickout and go for the rebound was the right play. Also, FWIW (a lot in this situation), I think being up 2 is significantly better than being up 1.
   4992. jmurph Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5679463)
My sense, from interviews and such, of Kerr's approach to the team is that he thinks the foibles are part of the personality of the team that makes them great. Curry stopping to shimmy every once in a while instead of getting back on D is part of the persona that he takes on the court that enables him to hit 26 foot pull up threes in transition. Draymond going too far sometimes is better than Draymond not bringing that same energy on D. Etc.

I don't know if that's true but that seems to be Kerr's thinking. Or alternatively, that could just be the kind of thing he says to cover for his guys publicly while he berates them in practice to knock that #### off. That's possible, too!
   4993. JC in DC Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5679465)
Lowe's got a great story on Ariza at ESPN.com.

I kinda agree, murph, but I don't even get what they were running there. What was Draymond going to do there? The whole play was sloppy.
   4994. jmurph Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:34 AM (#5679467)
Watching the replays, I don't have a problem with Draymond's kick to Quinn Cook. Their offense is built off kickouts on drives like that.

This was Lowe's thinking, too, and I think it's a fair point. I'd especially get it if it were one of Curry/Durant/Klay on the receiving end. I still think the safer play was to try to finish, and to be fair I also thought that in real time, so this isn't just an after the loss criticism. But yeah I get the other side, too.
   4995. JC in DC Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5679468)
Watching the replays, I don't have a problem with Draymond's kick to Quinn Cook. Their offense is built off kickouts on drives like that. Draymond isn't a great scorer/finisher - he's a passer first. It felt like the lane was open but by the time he got to the lane there was a rotation to the front of the basket (I think by Tucker). I mean, he could have just tried to barrel through him with the momentum, but I think the kickout and go for the rebound was the right play. Also, FWIW (a lot in this situation), I think being up 2 is significantly better than being up 1.


Wasn't this the 5 on 4 play, when Paul was still in the backcourt, hurt? The kick wasn't bad, I agree. I think Cook should've attacked to draw the defenders to him and then kicked to Thompson (I think). As I said at the time, Thompson was hot. You could tell he was on, and they just went away from him too much. There was a point in the third, I think, where he hit two threes and it seemed like 6 or minutes of game play before he touched the ball again on offense. I just didn't get that.
   4996. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5679469)
I don't know how to grade Kerr and won't feel comfortable doing it until this team starts to break up a bit. Get back to me when they lose a couple of guys. I do think he's good. He seems smart and understands basketball well, but there have been plenty of coaches where this is true that failed or maybe didn't fail but got fired because the talent wasn't there. Golden State plays an attractive style of offense and a really suffocating defense. They weren't doing all of that before he got there. But Mark Jackson I feel like is a bit of a clown, and Kerr got lucky and Mark got unlucky (again, imo) that a whole bunch of the guys peaked right around the time of that cutover. Draymond became Draymond. Curry went from talented shooter to top 5 player in the NBA. I mean, I seriously think this team would have won at least one of their titles without a head coach at all.

That said, it took a *long* time for Pop to get a bunch of credit, even by Spurs fans (including me). I mean how hard is to win a bunch of games with Robinson and Duncan? Not very. Early in Duncan's career there weren't many deep, well rounded teams like there are now imo. Duncan alone was able to carry the Spurs to be a top 5 team year in and year out. Pop really impressed me when the Spurs went from a slow it down, grind it out, play through the post team to a team that was built on dribble penetration, passing, and shooting as Duncan became more of complementary piece to what they were doing offensively. I think seeing how coaches adapt to different circumstances - both their own personnel and the styles of the league at large, is a big part of how I grade some of this stuff.
   4997. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5679470)
I was fine with the pass to Cook. I don't think you want Cook on the court very much but, if he's there, that play is why. He's a very good shooter from that spot.

Upvoting STIGGLES on Izzo.
   4998. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5679471)
If I'm Houston I'd be very inclined to just bench Paul for game 6. Hamstrings are funny things in my experience and if they rush him back I worry he'll reaggravate it for game 7. I'd just see if Harden and the role guys can go off on game 6.


I was thinking about that, and I may be nuts, but I would consider having Harden on a severe minutes restriction as well, especially if the game goes south. Both Harden and Paul seem to need some R & R. It seems insane to punt game six of a conference finals, so I question my own sanity, but that is how I am leaning.

In reality you probably start both, but if things go sideways early in the game you then punt. Give yourself a chance to steal the series, but if it looks like GSW is rolling at home then give yourself the best chance to win it all at home with rested guys.

But again I am not convinced I am right and it is easy to say for some dude on the internet.
   4999. . . . . . . Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5679472)
My sense, from interviews and such, of Kerr's approach to the team is that he thinks the foibles are part of the personality of the team that makes them great. Curry stopping to shimmy every once in a while instead of getting back on D is part of the persona that he takes on the court that enables him to hit 26 foot pull up threes in transition. Draymond going too far sometimes is better than Draymond not bringing that same energy on D. Etc.


Kerr is no genius in-game tactician (to wit: Walton's reasonable success as interim) but he's exceptionally good at player development, in part because of the above, which I think is 100% correct.
   5000. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: May 25, 2018 at 09:43 AM (#5679475)
This was Lowe's thinking, too, and I think it's a fair point. I'd especially get it if it were one of Curry/Durant/Klay on the receiving end. I still think the safer play was to try to finish, and to be fair I also thought that in real time, so this isn't just an after the loss criticism. But yeah I get the other side, too.

I could be wrong but I feel like that may have been of those situations where he decides to pass because he sees the open guy out of the corner of his eye, and it just happens to be Cook by the time the decision to pass has been made.
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