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Saturday, September 09, 2017

OT - 2017 NFL thread

Free agent NFL cornerback Antonio Cromartie and his wife Terricka announced the birth of baby girl Jhett Paxton, born Aug. 30.

This is the couple’s sixth child, and it is Cromartie’s fourteenth. By our count, it is his third child since (supposedly) having a vasectomy during his tenure with the New York Jets in 2013.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: September 09, 2017 at 12:36 AM | 177 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, off-topic

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   1. Howie Menckel Posted: September 09, 2017 at 09:19 PM (#5529130)
Pats trail the Jets by a half-game in the standings entering Sunday's play. Jets in control of their own destiny for division title.
   2. RMc's Unenviable Situation Posted: September 10, 2017 at 11:44 AM (#5529268)
This is the couple’s sixth child, and it is Cromartie’s fourteenth.

And they say romance is dead...!
   3. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 10, 2017 at 01:53 PM (#5529299)
The "Los Angeles Chargers"? I think I missed a memo.
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: September 10, 2017 at 04:23 PM (#5529360)
Old college pal of mine is a talented artist - and a Bengals fan, thanks to ex-QB Ken Anderson's 1970s exploits.

a few months back, he did one of those pencil line drawings - the kind that take weeks, if not months, to complete - of the tiger in the Bengals logo.

he sent it to the Bengals offices in Cincinnati. Owner Mike Brown liked it so much he replied to my pal and said they would hang the framed product in the stadium.

a couple of weeks ago, my guy finds out today is a 50th anniversary salute to - well, the Bengals existing. so he books a plane ticket (he's got fock-you money, obviously) to Cincinnati. then he contacts the front office again and asks about tickets.

since he might be the only person who ever grew up in the Northeast who ever wanted to go to a home Bengals game, they got him a prime ticket and Brown said he wanted to meet him.

oh, Bengals lost, 20-0, to Baltimore.

in other AFC North news:

Bob Pompeani‏Verified account @KDPomp 18m18 minutes ago

Ben Roethlisberger is now the winningest Quarterback in Cleveland Browns stadium history (since 1999)... More wins there than any Browns QB
   5. RMc's Unenviable Situation Posted: September 10, 2017 at 05:05 PM (#5529391)
The "Los Angeles Chargers"? I think I missed a memo.

They were the LA Chargers in their first season in 1960. (Apparently, they played somewhere else from 1961-2016.)
   6. zenbitz Posted: September 10, 2017 at 07:46 PM (#5529440)
I got some strange bar trivia question right some 15+ years ago knowing that the Chargers played in LA.
   7. zenbitz Posted: September 10, 2017 at 07:48 PM (#5529441)
Newsflash: despite tuning over about 70% if their roster and almost all of their coaches, 49ers still suck.

   8. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: September 10, 2017 at 09:23 PM (#5529461)
thoughts on the eagles:

they're not good.
they might be better than i think.


that is all.
   9. Howie Menckel Posted: September 10, 2017 at 09:40 PM (#5529464)
Eagles O and D lines look good. Jeffrey is quite a weapon. Wentz is even harder to tackle than Big Ben - and more mobile than him.

if the Eagles had a decent coach, I'd put them right up there in the division. I also was surprised the Redskins hung in as long as they did. their D is improved (except on third downs and generally any short pass play), so they just need time for Cousins and Pryor to jell. possibly a very competitive NFC East in 2017.
   10. Red Menace Posted: September 11, 2017 at 02:44 AM (#5529497)
Howie, as a Bengal fan I'm shocked that story ended with your friend getting comped tickets. I thought for sure that was going to end with the Bengals sending him a bill for what he assumed were gratis tickets, or Mike Brown suing him for copyright infringement and exploiting his drawing of the logo.
   11. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: September 11, 2017 at 06:12 AM (#5529499)
if the Eagles had a decent coach, I'd put them right up there in the division

i know why people think this (it's not just you), but i don't agree with the casual trashing of doug pederson. he's not a great coach, but he wasn't hired to be a great coach. he was hired because the organization felt unmoored after chip kelly and they wanted a familiar face to restore a sense of normalcy. he's done that. given the uncertainty when he was hired, he's done better on the field than expected.

i'll tell you something i was shocked by. the eagles won the time of possession yesterday 35-25. before i saw that, i would have sworn it would be the other way around. and i just looked up last year on pfr; the eagles were #1 in the NFL in time of possession. i had, literally, no idea.


   12. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:02 AM (#5529543)
It might be the Lions' year.
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:42 AM (#5529563)

Howie, as a Bengal fan I'm shocked that story ended with your friend getting comped tickets. I thought for sure that was going to end with the Bengals sending him a bill for what he assumed were gratis tickets, or Mike Brown suing him for copyright infringement and exploiting his drawing of the logo.



Agreed. I thought for sure Mike Brown's legendary skinflint ways were going to make an appearance in that anecdote.
   14. Astroenteritis Posted: September 11, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5529864)
I do not possess the words to begin to describe the effort by the Texans on Sunday. I only regret that 15 more games remain to be played. Cruel.
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: September 11, 2017 at 08:28 PM (#5529933)
Red Menace, SoSH:

my pal called me and told me that he indeed met Brown in the owner's box, and the guy has the framed drawing IN THE OWNER'S BOX, with a backlight and everything. pal has a nice photo of him and Brown on either side of the drawing. seat was on the 50-yard line, too, in the Bengals players family section.

but the funny part is what happened before that. my pal arrived early, and noticed there was an autograph tent. he was wearing his Ken Anderson jersey, and he asked a woman working if the tent if he would be there. the woman said probably not, though he was listed, because he had his own event "down by the river."

a few minutes later, pal notices Anderson about 50 yards away, walking briskly (perhaps the only 68-year-old ex-NFL QB capable of this). pal is a dozen years younger and pretty fit, but he says he can barely gain any ground on the "elusive" (and oblivious) Anderson.

he's racewalking at this point, is reluctant to run in case Anderson would notice and evade him. Anderson is just steps away from the event, where he will disappear and perhaps end my pal's last chance to meet him.

he tells me, "I just decided that I'd never get a chance again, so I ran up and yelled, "MR. ANDERSON, YOU WERE MY FAVORITE PLAYER GROWING UP AND I FLEW IN FROM NEW JERSEY HOPING TO MEET YOU!" I was, uh, kind of loud."

but Anderson and his wife were friendly, he says. Pal has a 1970s Anderson Topps card ready, and offers a pen. Anderson whips out his own special FB card-friendly pen. Mrs. A says, "Would you like Ken to sign the back of your jersey, too?"

yes, please, he says. then he mentions that it's a "disgrace" that Andy Dalton has Anderson's unretired jersey number.

fast forward to pre-game, and as pal sits down, guy behind him says, "Nice Anderson jersey. you know, that's Ken's son sitting right over there." pal can't believe it, looks over - and the guy is the spitting image of Ken back in the day. so pal goes over and chats with him, too.

pal should write a book. he attended a rock n roll fantasy camp with Steven Tyler - at THE PLAYBOY MANSION. lots of bunny pictures when he returned. he jammed (he's a pretty good drummer) with Roger Daltrey at another camp.

his goal is to meet all of the famous people he admired growing up. he flew to Chicago to meet three Monty Python members. he has photos with Barbara Eden, Adrienne Barbeau, Lynda Carter, Johnny Bench, Tom Seaver - he just met Dick Butkus last week at a show. he went to the Hollywood Bowl just to see Paul McCartney sing "You've got rock n roll and the Hollywood Bowl."

his father was close with the 1950s Yankees, who were over his house all the time - especially Yogi Berra. Rocky Marciano also was tight with his Dad.

oh, and he grew up across the street from Dick Young, a legendary NYC sportswriter who was instrumental in getting pal's hero traded to Cincinnati.
   16. Nasty Nate Posted: September 11, 2017 at 08:55 PM (#5529941)
Great story, the best part is that the drawing that started it all is hanging in the owner's box in the stadium.
   17. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 11, 2017 at 08:56 PM (#5529944)
That's cool Howie. And you can tell your pal I was a New York-raised kid who was also a huge Anderson/Bengal fan in the 70s.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:12 PM (#5529954)
thanks. that was a LONG post, but I started to tell this story to Mrs Howie tonight and well, after 20 years she's heard plenty of stories from me.

I tried to cut this one short, and she went all Elaine Benes "SHUT THE FRONT DOOR - START OVER!" - fortunately without the Seinfeld knockdown.

SoSH is that other Bengals fan from the area - I knew there was one more!
:)
   19. Jay Z Posted: September 11, 2017 at 09:52 PM (#5529968)
oh, and he grew up across the street from Dick Young, a legendary NYC sportswriter who was instrumental in getting pal's hero traded to Cincinnati.


That karmically balances out the rest of the stuff.
   20. Howie Menckel Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:17 PM (#5529975)
heh

yeah, it's all a crazyquilt pattern. I have met up with him at times at major events like Super Bowls - me working, him not so much.

it's like if Zelig and Forrest Gump went to college together, which makes no sense - but then none of this does. it's weird being a cartoon character, but the Earthlings always seem to like the describing of the stories.

catch me at next year's BBTF softball postgame if you want more of both of our stories.
:)
   21. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 11, 2017 at 10:54 PM (#5529981)
Beth Mowins is just as awful and robotic calling the NFL as she is for college.
   22. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 11, 2017 at 11:14 PM (#5529986)
Who is this play by play announcer for ESPN for the Broncos-Chargers game...................

She sounds like the Fabulous Sports Babe?
   23. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:02 AM (#5529992)
Beth Mowins is just as awful and robotic calling the NFL as she is for college.
she's knowledgeable and she has a good cadence. if you're hung up on the sound of her voice, that's on you.

*edit* oh, wow, this is actually a thing for some people:
https://twitter.com/morgan_murphy/status/907450110207856641

   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:10 AM (#5529993)
if you're hung up on the sound of her voice, that's on you.


The sound of an announcer's voice is kind of a big deal. All we're hearing is their voice.

Not sure why it wouldn't be.
   25. The Ghost of Sox Fans Past Posted: September 12, 2017 at 12:58 AM (#5530003)
She does have an unusual sound to her voice, but she's very good. I've only heard her doing college sports before this.
   26. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 12, 2017 at 01:09 AM (#5530004)
She doesn't bother me, which is all I ask for.
   27. . . . . . . . . . . Posted: September 12, 2017 at 07:27 AM (#5530022)
she's knowledgeable and she has a good cadence. if you're hung up on the sound of her voice, that's on you


She's knowledgeable but her cadence is forced, robotic and awful. She speaks in a monotone and has to FORCE it by consciously INCREASING the VOLUME of her VOICE for big plays. Simultaneously, she's scared to increase the pitch of her voice because she doesn't want to squeak, so she speaks LOUDER without sounding excited and it creates the general effect of someone trying and failing to get their deaf grandpa IRWIN to LISTEN TO ME DAMMIT.

My ex was on-air in broadcast journalism for many years, so I know a touch of which I speak. I know why Rowins is speaking like that but it doesn't mean it works. She's a terrible choice to be the vanguard because there are hundreds of knowledgeable women with natural-sounding cadences (none of them are actually natural, the art of it is to be natural sounding) who are just as knowledgeable. But apparently ESPN doesn't think we're ready for a woman who doesn't spend half the game yelling at the listener in vocal fry.
   28. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: September 18, 2017 at 03:08 PM (#5533823)
“It has nothing to do with you being a woman,” they tell me, “I just can’t stand the sound of your voice.”

For someone who gets paid primarily to say sports words on the radio, listeners hating the sound of her voice is somewhat troubling.

The veteran N.F.L. reporter Andrea Kremer said she was hardly surprised by the backlash against Mowins’s play-by-play on the sport’s biggest stage. “I have no doubt that ‘hating the sound of her voice’ is code for ‘I hate that there was a woman announcing football,’” Kremer told me.

“One of the many positives about Beth doing the game, in addition to her being a top-notch, seasoned broadcaster, is that she has a great voice that cuts through all the ambient noise in the stadium. Whether you’re in the booth or on the field, you need a resonant voice that can be audible. The voice is like an instrument, and Beth is blessed with some great pipes.”

“The comments, mostly from men, have focused on her voice being annoying to the point of not wanting to listen to her. They’ll focus on the naturally higher pitch of women’s voices and ‘shrillness,’ all the while claiming their critiques of higher pitch have nothing to do with sexism.

The only time I’ve ever been complimented on my voice was when I had bronchitis and a bunch of men called in to tell me my voice was sexy.


saw this, thought of ..........
   29. stanmvp48 Posted: September 18, 2017 at 07:16 PM (#5533977)
Cleveland favored on the road this week
   30. Nasty Nate Posted: September 18, 2017 at 08:16 PM (#5534034)
That probably hasn't happened much in the last decade.

Lots of road favorites next weekend, actually.
   31. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 19, 2017 at 01:40 PM (#5534475)
Just to revisit this prediction of mine...

1230. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 06, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4340455)

RGIII just died.

Yes, say hello to mediocre quarterback Robert Griffin, who will be out of the league in three years.

He was hurt, and therefore he shouldn't have been in there, both because they were risking a serious, career-threatening injury with him and because he sucks if he doesn't have his legs.

The capper: He was hurt reaching back for the ball on a fumble. If he couldn't do that, he had no business being in the game.


It turned out Griffin was out of the league in four years, but as predictions go it wasn't bad. He was mediocre and then he was unemployed.
   32. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: September 25, 2017 at 10:31 AM (#5538031)
Adam Schefter
Eagles RB Darren Sproles tore his ACL and broke his arm on same play, sources tell @mortreport and me. Surgery on arm today, knee later.


football should be banned and outlawed.
   33. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM (#5538088)
Starting the week after the most recent Super Bowl, I've been watching recordings of all* of the Super Bowls, one per week, and ranking them. I've written about each at watchingthesuperbowl.tumblr.com. Feel free to visit. Or not. That's fine too.

I watched XXXIII last week, and will have my recap up in the next day or so. On to XXXIV and the Greatest Show on Turf!

* - There's no known video recording of Super Bowl II, and the NFL is too cheap to buy the only surviving copy of the original telecast of Super Bowl I. So I listened to the original radio broadcasts of those, synced to NFL Films video where available.
   34. Howie Menckel Posted: September 25, 2017 at 02:58 PM (#5538530)
"It turned out Griffin was out of the league in four years, but as predictions go it wasn't bad. He was mediocre and then he was unemployed."

you were wrong before you were right

By Mike Jones January 2, 2013

Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III concluded the regular season by setting NFL rookie records for passer rating and for percentage of passes intercepted.

Griffin this season posted a passer rating of 102.4, surpassing Seattle’s Russell Wilson’s 100.0 passer rating this season and Pittsburgh’s Ben Roethlisberger’s 98.1 from the 2004 season.

Griffin threw only five interceptions this season."

...............

(one can quibble with QB rating, but you'll be dining alone if you plan to enjoy a meal with sane NFL followers who thought Griffin was "mediocre" that season. the rest of his career, fugheddabout it. but he won his last six regular season games in 2012-13, the Redskins finished 10-6, and they led the Seahawks 14-0 when he got hurt in that playoff game. he had an outstanding rookie season, for which he was named AP's NFC Offensive Rookie of the Year with 29 votes to 11 for Andrew Luck and 10 for Wilson.)
   35. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: October 03, 2017 at 12:49 AM (#5543301)
Bumped for lazy geriatrics.
   36. Red Menace Posted: October 03, 2017 at 01:40 AM (#5543305)
Since there's been some Mike Brown talk in this thread I'll relay this.

I attended the Texans-Bengals week 2 Thursday nighter. Awful for all the reasons you would expect. But here's a fun one: At around 8 pm, approximately 30 minutes before kickoff of the second game of the year, there were no paper towels in the men's room near my section. There was a little dance as everyone washed their hands then check the multitude of dispensers, all of which were empty. "That's Mike Brown for ya" someone yelled and we all laughed. They handed out some sort of Bengals terrible towels as we entered the stadium so we made do with those.
   37. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: October 03, 2017 at 08:26 AM (#5543331)

(one can quibble with QB rating, but you'll be dining alone if you plan to enjoy a meal with sane NFL followers who thought Griffin was "mediocre" that season. the rest of his career, fugheddabout it. but he won his last six regular season games in 2012-13, the Redskins finished 10-6, and they led the Seahawks 14-0 when he got hurt in that playoff game. he had an outstanding rookie season, for which he was named AP's NFC Offensive Rookie of the Year with 29 votes to 11 for Andrew Luck and 10 for Wilson.)

Griffin's decline had much more to do with his knees than any mediocrity. The league might have adjusted to him anyway, but that's a matter of speculation. There've been many scrambling QBs the defenses never caught up to, including several enshrined in Canton.
   38. zenbitz Posted: October 03, 2017 at 12:23 PM (#5543484)
Chiefs vs. Redskins was really the Cultural Appropriation Bowl, wasn't it?
   39. PepTech Posted: October 03, 2017 at 01:29 PM (#5543515)
Chiefs vs. Redskins was really the Cultural Appropriation Bowl, wasn't it?
Yes, remindful of the Braves-Indians World Series. I haven't heard about anyone upset over the Chiefs - it considered culturally respectful, or are there some agitators looking to get them changed back to the Texans? Whoops, too late for that, on a couple of different levels. They could go back to their history and become the Mules, that would be awesome.
   40. zenbitz Posted: October 03, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5543601)
It was less the name, and more the war whooping and tomahawk chop by the fans.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: October 08, 2017 at 07:25 PM (#5547307)
OK, so I flipped on the Cowboys game, and they had a fourth down play that I simply don't understand how it's ruled this way.

Ezekiel Elliott dives into the pack, and thrusts his arm out to push the ball ahead of the 19-yard-line, which was where Dallas needs to go for a first down. But fearing the ball getting knocked away, he pulls the ball back toward his body and it ends up at the 20. But he wasn't forced to do so, he did it on his own. He also wasn't, as far as I could tell, touched by a Packer at any point before pulling the ball back.

If a receiver catches a pass in front of the first down marker and then runs back on his own, the ball is spotted where the receiver is tackled. The first-down line is not a plane like the goal line, where once you've crossed it nothing else matters. Yet, upon review, the Cowboys got the first down.

Is there a specific rule that covers this, because it's otherwise inconsistent* with how the rules govern that type of play elsewhere?

*Not that inconsistent rulings are entirely unexpected in the NFL.

   42. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 08, 2017 at 07:29 PM (#5547309)
Fans won't have to be subjected to Odell Beckham's antics for a while, I guess.
   43. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 08, 2017 at 07:33 PM (#5547310)
I remember when one of the reasons that the NFL was better than baseball was because of parity or something.

Hey, look, Packers and Patriots win again!
   44. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 08, 2017 at 09:09 PM (#5547339)
I remember when one of the reasons that the NFL was better than baseball was because of parity or something.

Hey, look, Packers and Patriots win again!
in the land of the skunk, the man with half a nose is king.
   45. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: October 09, 2017 at 01:31 AM (#5547441)
In the Rams-Seahawks game, the Rams used their final timeout with 2:42 left on the clock, a time management mistake that should never be made and it cost them 40 seconds on their final drive. The announcers of the game never pointed the mistake out, just as they never do. Having an extra 40 seconds may have made a difference on the final drive. The Rams made it to the 20 yard line, but only had enough time left for shots at the end zone at that point, having no time to complete one over the middle of the field.
   46. stevegamer Posted: October 09, 2017 at 01:34 AM (#5547442)
Jets in control of their own destiny for division title.


First post of the thread, said tongue in cheek, and still true after week 5.

   47. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 09, 2017 at 06:38 AM (#5547448)
I remember when one of the reasons that the NFL was better than baseball was because of parity or something.

Hey, look, Packers and Patriots win again!

This seems like a very odd time to be complaining about this. I mean I am not unsympathetic to the point in general, but this seems like the least relevant time in recent history, to actually try and make that point. Both the Packers and Patriots have been decidedly mediocre. Either team might figure it out, or they might not, neither would shock me. Meanwhile, the freakin' Chiefs are the best team in the league by a mile.

And the top 10 DVOA through week 4 looks like a random list of 10 teams picked out of a hat... I doubt before the season most people could have even picked half of those:
1 KC
2 PIT
3 LARM
4 WAS
5 DET
6 BUF
7 HOU
8 JAC
9 NO
10 MIN
   48. Nasty Nate Posted: October 09, 2017 at 08:17 AM (#5547465)
This seems like a very odd time to be complaining about this. I mean I am not unsympathetic to the point in general, but this seems like the least relevant time in recent history, to actually try and make that point.
Right, the times in which the Patriots have been tied or worse with 2 East competitors after September have got to be extremely rare in the past 13-14 years.

On the other hand, we all know (figuratively) they will win the AFC East again this year.
   49. simon bedford Posted: October 09, 2017 at 08:24 AM (#5547468)
They have struggled in all but one game so far this year, the pats defense seems to be very much a work in progress so it seems even if they win the east it wont mean much . of course a 40 year old tom brady cant ever fail right?
   50. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 09, 2017 at 08:38 AM (#5547469)
This seems like a very odd time to be complaining about this. I mean I am not unsympathetic to the point in general, but this seems like the least relevant time in recent history, to actually try and make that point. Both the Packers and Patriots have been decidedly mediocre. Either team might figure it out, or they might not, neither would shock me. Meanwhile, the freakin' Chiefs are the best team in the league by a mile.

And the top 10 DVOA through week 4 looks like a random list of 10 teams picked out of a hat... I doubt before the season most people could have even picked half of those:
1 KC
2 PIT
3 LARM
4 WAS
5 DET
6 BUF
7 HOU
8 JAC
9 NO
10 MIN


Just a whiny Detroit fan chiming in after watching another Rodgers comeback. DVOA or not, the chances the Packers don't win the North are slim after yesterday. Also, that DVOA list looks pretty suspect to me. Going into yesterday, Sagarin predictor had:

1 NE
2 GB
3 KC
4 PIT
5 ATL
6 OAK
7 NO
8 DEN
9 SEA
10 CAR

I'd assume Sagarin is using some pre-season projections to get to those, but I'd use that list over the DVOA one if forced to make predictions.
   51. Nasty Nate Posted: October 09, 2017 at 08:43 AM (#5547471)
the pats defense seems to be very much a work in progress so it seems even if they win the east it wont mean much
Never mind the Patriots, I wouldn't predict any playoff team's playoff chances based on how they looked in the first 5 games of the season.
   52. simon bedford Posted: October 09, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5547475)
Based on what we have 5 games in I would heavily favour the Chiefs over the pats in the post season. I mean if you dont want to make predictions thats fine, but based on the results so far, one team is very clearly better than the other.
   53. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:07 AM (#5547481)
Looks like the AFC North is the worst division in football now. Here's the full list of wins by AFC North teams, a third of the way into the season:

Baltimore: Cincinnati, Cleveland, Oakland (with their backup QB)
Pittsburgh: Cleveland (just barely), Minnesota (with their backup QB), Baltimore
Cincinnati: Cleveland, Buffalo

Both the Ravens and Steelers got their doors blown off by the Jaguars, and the Steelers also lost to the Bears. One of those teams is going to edge out the other for the division at 9-7 vs. 8-8, both of them buoyed by four free wins against the awful Bengals and historically inept Browns.

Everyone knew Baltimore wouldn't have an offense; more surprising is that their defense is merely OK, not great. No idea what's gone wrong with Pittsburgh's passing game, besides the possibility that Ben Roethlisberger (who is 35, well on his way to ranking 3rd all time in sacks by season's end, and not exactly renowned for being a workout fanatic) abruptly got old, as quarterbacks usually do.

But boy howdy, so far it looks that that's a really terrible division, incapable of consistently beating anyone but its own soft underbelly.
   54. Nasty Nate Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:14 AM (#5547486)
but based on the results so far, one team is very clearly better than the other.
OK, but jumping from that to "seems even if they [the Patriots] win the east it wont mean much" is the part that doesn't make sense.
   55. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:33 AM (#5547492)
I'd assume Sagarin is using some pre-season projections to get to those, but I'd use that list over the DVOA one if forced to make predictions.

Sure, but the issue is mostly what has happened so far, based on actual results. I mean the original point was based entirely on the fact that the Patriots and Packers both (barely) won a game the same week, and making super broad statements just based on that. So an actual reflection of what has happened this season seems more relevant than something based 80% on preseason predictions.

That said, I don't think that Sagarin top 10 looks so hot. Neither of the 1/2 of NE and GB should be anywhere near the top 5 imo. Both have shown really big weaknesses, compared to other teams. They might iron those out, but they are definitely starting from behind the pack.
   56. Howie Menckel Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:35 AM (#5547495)
0-5 - Giants, 49ers, Browns
1-4 - Chargers
1-3 - Bears

3-2 - Jets (I'm saying there's a chance)
   57. simon bedford Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:36 AM (#5547497)
It means even if they win they east they are not going to magically grow a defense in the meantime, sure they may out perform the other teams in that division but come playoff time they will still be a team with a massive weakness that wont close in the remaining 2/3rds of the season.
   58. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:51 AM (#5547510)

I'd assume Sagarin is using some pre-season projections to get to those, but I'd use that list over the DVOA one if forced to make predictions.


The Football Outsiders equivalent is DAVE, which is DVOA with some preseason projection added in. It's available on the same page as the DVOA ratings.
   59. Nasty Nate Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:53 AM (#5547514)
It means even if they win they east they are not going to magically grow a defense in the meantime, sure they may out perform the other teams in that division but come playoff time they will still be a team with a massive weakness that wont close in the remaining 2/3rds of the season.
Is this your first season watching the NFL?
   60. simon bedford Posted: October 09, 2017 at 09:57 AM (#5547517)
Not at all, I know that one third of the season tells you something about a team but not everything, sure the pats may suddenly real off 9 wins in a row but so far this team shows no signs of that. Anything can happen which is why we all watch but every indicator so far suggests that Pats arent the 4th best team in the afc so far let alone in the nfl.
   61. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:09 AM (#5547525)
Making sweeping judgments based on five games makes no more sense in football than it does in baseball. It's just five games.

(Says the guy who wrote #53. But in my own defense, I wrote about what things LOOK like write now; I acknowledge that things may look very different in December. In fact, they probably will. It would be crazy to assert the Ravens or Steelers are definitely finished, they suck, based on five games. We can only say they HAVE sucked so far.)

P.S. on the morning of Sept. 30, 2014, the Patriots were fresh off a blowout loss to the Chiefs and were 2-2. They would lose two more games the rest of the season, the second a meaningless Week 17 game.

P.P.S. Belichick has a long history of pulling punches in regular season games against teams he expects to see in the playoffs. He tends not to use the whole playbook against the Chiefs and Steelers (and Colts, back in the day) in the regular season.
   62. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5547538)

Sure, but the issue is mostly what has happened so far, based on actual results. I mean the original point was based entirely on the fact that the Patriots and Packers both (barely) won a game the same week, and making super broad statements just based on that. So an actual reflection of what has happened this season seems more relevant than something based 80% on preseason predictions.


Patriots are going to win the division for the 9th straight year. Packers are going to win for the 6th in 7 years (they won the Super Bowl as the wild card the year before that). They didn't have vintage performances this week, but they both went in and won on the road against teams that thought themselves to be playoff contenders.

My joke was probably bad and parity (whatever that is) is probably fine. And maybe the Packers and Patriots are maybe vulnerable, but I'd wager they'll both be hosting playoff games again this year.
   63. simon bedford Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:28 AM (#5547539)
Had the pats given up the second most points in the league by week 5 only ahead of the colts? Some things do actually count in games even if you think the first 3rd of the season means less than say the first 50 games in baseball.
   64. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:47 AM (#5547553)
The Packers have been to one Super Bowl in Aaron Rodgers' 10-year career. They have a long list of painful losses in the playoffs. They're not quite the Patriots.

My belief about NFL coaches is that at the top there's Bill Belichick and Andy Reid, and at the bottom there are about seven to nine guys who aren't really good enough to coach in the NFL and actively hurt the franchises that employ them, and in between are about twenty guys who may differ in style but are all of about the same adequate quality and whose success and failure ride mostly on the various whims of fate. Jack Del Rio, Bill O'Brien, Mike Tomlin, Jay Gruden, Mike Zimmer... they're all decent NFL coaches, nothing special. Merely decent NFL coaches win Super Bowls all the time.

But I think, have thought for a while and still think, Mike McCarthy isn't in that class; he's at the bottom, a bad coach who hurts his team. The Packers have underperformed their talent level for years and years, and may well have had a dynastic run with a merely adequate coach. Whereas most of the guys who just aren't good enough coaches to be an NFL head coach wash out quickly and end up in college or working as coordinators, McCarthy has survived for well over a decade mostly because of how awesome Aaron Rodgers is.

(When I describe NFL coaches as "merely decent" I want to be clear that I mean merely decent FOR AN NFL COACH. These guys are among the few dozen very best football coaches in the world, and there are never quite enough coaches in the world who are capable of competence at the NFL level to staff the 32 NFL teams. I don't mean to make it sound like they're hacks who are lucky to have their jobs; they aren't.)
   65. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:54 AM (#5547564)
The Packers have been to one Super Bowl in Aaron Rodgers' 10-year career. They have a long list of painful losses in the playoffs. They're not quite the Patriots.


I guess that's true, but it feels like they are in Detroit.
   66. jmurph Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:59 AM (#5547568)
Had the pats given up the second most points in the league by week 5 only ahead of the colts?

It's worth noting that the Patriots have played two of the three highest scoring offenses in the AFC (the Patriots are themselves 2nd on that list). I don't think their defense has been any good so far, but I'd currently expect them to settle into somewhere around "pretty bad" rather than "worst in the league," once the full schedule is played.

EDIT: Plus New Orleans, and Carolina. They've honestly played some pretty good offenses, with the exception of Tampa. I think we don't yet really know much about their defense, other than to say it's almost certainly not great.
   67. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 11:03 AM (#5547573)
The question is: if the Patriots don't win the AFC this year, who's going to beat them in the playoffs? It's not likely going to be a team coached by Andy Reid, and it doesn't look likely to be the Steelers. It won't be anyone from the AFC South. Maybe the Raiders... if Derek Carr can get back on the field and stay on it.

If Tom Brady goes down then I guess the Chiefs have such a clear road to the Super Bowl that maybe even Andy Reid can't screw it up in the playoffs. Short of that, though, the Patriots have to remain overwhelming favorites to win the AFC. They might be in trouble in the Super Bowl, granted, but likelier than not they'll get at least that far.

edit: Phrasing that more clearly:
   68. simon bedford Posted: October 09, 2017 at 11:07 AM (#5547577)
I am not saying the pats wont win their division, I think they will but after 5 games they dont look anymore like a superbowl lock , can they turn it around in the last 2/3rds of the season? Sure , they could also go into the playoffs as they are, a team that is more than a little weak on defense making a quick exit more likely than its been for a while.
   69. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 09, 2017 at 11:15 AM (#5547583)
Making sweeping judgments based on five games makes no more sense in football than it does in baseball. It's just five games.

This is an oversell. While it obviously doesn't tell you everything, a single NFL game carries way way way more signal than a single baseball game.

There is a reason why MLB best-of-7 series are typically considered crapshoots, even after 162 game seasons, while we feel much more confident about (many) single NFL games, after 16.
   70. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: October 09, 2017 at 11:19 AM (#5547586)
The chat made me curious, so looked up odds online. From 5Dimes, which is probably a not-as-reputable sportsbook but here it is:

AFC
New England +200
Kansas City +330
Pittsburgh +550
Denver +980

NFC
Green Bay +350
Atlanta +525
Seattle +555
Philadelphia +725
   71. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 11:50 AM (#5547617)
There is a reason why MLB best-of-7 series are typically considered crapshoots, even after 162 game seasons, while we feel much more confident about (many) single NFL games, after 16.


Yes, and that reason is that pitcher performance varies a lot more from day to day than quarterback performance does.

I mean, yeah, I oversold the position a bit--but not by very much. Five football games have a lot more weight than five baseball games do because the season is one-tenth as long, but I'm not sure five football games have MUCH more predictive value than five baseball games do.

I think it not merely possible but quite likely that every year, just by the bounces, some team in the NFL that God knows is a 10-6 quality team goes 5-11, and some team with 5-11 talent goes 10-6, and some team with 8-8 talent goes 4-12 or 12-4. The sample size of an NFL season is just SO small. It's not just that luck has a large impact; it's that an NFL season isn't a large enough sample to have any real confidence in saying this team is better than that team is better than this other team, even if the teams in question posted records of 11-5, 8-8 and 6-10.
   72. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 12:08 PM (#5547630)
I don't feel THAT strongly about the argument in #71, so let me briefly make a counter-argument:

How many distinct instances of baseball players being called upon to make a play happen in a baseball game?

Let's say the top of the first consists of a 6-3 groundout, a walk, a strikeout, a single to right field sending the runner to third, and a popout to first to end the inning. How many distinct instances were there, in that half-inning, of someone having to execute some kind of athletic task?

Well, the batter, pitcher, and catcher have to execute on every play of a baseball game, so that's 15 in the five at-bats.

Then there's two more on the groundout; the shortstop had to field and throw the ball, and the first baseman had to catch it and touch the bag. We'll call it three on the single to right; technically only the runner and the right fielder had to make a play, since the fielder decided not to try to throw the runner out at third. But we'll count the third baseman as having a responsibility there; he had to be ready in the event the right fielder decided to go after the runner. And on the popout there was one more, just the first baseman.

So, in that half-inning there were 22 athletic plays that had to be made. We're not assigning relative responsibility here; just counting plays. Let's be generous and assume that this is lower than usual; let's say in an average inning, top and bottom, there are 50 distinct athletic events. So that makes 450 in a modern nine inning game. It's really closer to 400, but... let's say 450; hell, say 500 if you want to.

In a football game, the players are called upon to perform 22 athletic events on every play. You can quibble and say the off-side wide receiver has no responsibility on a running play. We can just call it 20 per play, to be generous to the other argument and to make the math easier.

Well... you can see where this is going. There are about 100 plays in a football game--a few more than that, but say 100--so that's 2,000 athletic events.

2,000 events to 500 in a game; that suggests that an average football game tells you four times as much about the teams involved as an average baseball game. We were overly generous in our calculations; it's really about six times as much.

A baseball SEASON will tell you more about the quality of the participants than a football season, but it's not by a factor of ten; it's by a factor of two or three. I grant that it's true that you will tend to get more random results from a 16 game football season than from a 162 game baseball season; a .500 football team might randomly post a .300 or .700 record over 16 games, but a .500 baseball team will never get close to that over 162 games.

But four football games does have a lot more predictive value than four baseball games, because it's 8,000 athletic events to 2,000.
   73. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 09, 2017 at 02:24 PM (#5547751)
It means even if they win they east they are not going to magically grow a defense in the meantime, sure they may out perform the other teams in that division but come playoff time they will still be a team with a massive weakness that wont close in the remaining 2/3rds of the season.


Tom Brady is their best defensive player.

The best defense is to score a gaggle of points, which is what Brady does. They'll be fine (unless he's lost it, but there's no indication that he has).
   74. jmurph Posted: October 09, 2017 at 02:47 PM (#5547793)
The best defense is to score a gaggle of points, which is what Brady does. They'll be fine (unless he's lost it, but there's no indication that he has).

He was the best QB in the league through the first 4 weeks, so very much no. But if their offensive line keeps playing as poorly as they have, he's going to take a lot of hits.
   75. Howie Menckel Posted: October 09, 2017 at 08:52 PM (#5548420)
this will be the 7th time in the last 9 years that the Giants - playing in one of the NFL's weakest division in that span - will miss the playoffs.

they are 66-67 in that span, even though they are the only team in football to have had a good starting QB in all 133 games (all other teams had crappy starters/backups start numerous games).

I've noted this before, but if Eli is a HOF QB and Coughlin is a HOF coach (McAdoo is 11-10 fyi)....

the Giants were an impressive 41-23 in Eli's first 4 years as a starter + Coughlin as coach, but what happened?

it's been posited that the Giants had little quality talent in that span, but compared to what? did Rivers get more quality players in his career? he sure as heck didn't get as much decent coaching. yet Rivers - playing in a tougher division - has only one fewer win since 2009.

   76. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:07 PM (#5548460)
Well, Eli will no doubt be voted into the Hall of Fame someday, but on the day he enters he'll be one of the weakest players there.

I haven't seen the Giants play a snap all year, but had heard Giants fans saying Eli is washed up. It doesn't show up in his stat line--his stats look pretty good by his standards, and especially considering the lack of talent around him. Phil Rivers too; the Chargers suck, but Rivers' stats are respectable. I'm not sure to what extent both guys are padding their passing stats in garbage time with their teams already handily losing, though.

Their draft classmate Ben Roethlisberger, on the other hand, has as much offensive talent around him as anyone in the league, but so far this season he looks washed up. He's not been as awful as the Bortleses and Glennons and Cutlers, but nowhere near his usual standard. It's long been assumed he would have the shortest career of the three, what with the beating he's taken over the years and lackadaisical conditioning, and indeed this looks to be so.

Flags fly forever and a two time Super Bowl MVP is going to go into the Hall of Fame. But Rivers, who won't go into the Hall, was better than Eli, and depending how you rate their relative teammates and coaches, some may argue he was better than Roethlisberger, too.
   77. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:08 PM (#5548461)
Ezekiel Elliott dives into the pack, and thrusts his arm out to push the ball ahead of the 19-yard-line, which was where Dallas needs to go for a first down. But fearing the ball getting knocked away, he pulls the ball back toward his body and it ends up at the 20. But he wasn't forced to do so, he did it on his own. He also wasn't, as far as I could tell, touched by a Packer at any point before pulling the ball back.

If a receiver catches a pass in front of the first down marker and then runs back on his own, the ball is spotted where the receiver is tackled. The first-down line is not a plane like the goal line, where once you've crossed it nothing else matters. Yet, upon review, the Cowboys got the first down.

Is there a specific rule that covers this, because it's otherwise inconsistent* with how the rules govern that type of play elsewhere?

There isn't anything that specifically addresses a runner pulling the ball back as opposed to retreating on foot, so one imagines Accepted Ruling 7.6 should indeed apply:
Second-and-10 on A30. Offensive End A1 catches a legal forward pass on the A40 where he is stopped by B1, but A1 breaks away and goes back to the A38 in an attempt to break loose. He is tackled on the A38 by B2.

Ruling: A’s ball third-and-two on A38. No forward progress is given as he was not stopped. He broke away before he was downed.

Mike Pereira and Dean Blandino do a weekly show that breaks down controversial calls, and Pereira said the rulebook isn't necessarily clear on the issue but that based on Elliott being in the air and in contact with a defender at the time he pulled the ball back, he would have given him the forward-most extension of the ball, citing a note from Rule 7, Section 3, Article 3* as justification:
When an airborne player of either team completes a catch or interception inbounds after an opponent has driven him backward, the ball is declared dead, and forward progress is awarded at the spot where the player established firm grip and control of the ball while in the air.

Elliott wasn't driven back by a defender, so I disagree that this has any bearing. That strikes me as grasping for a reason why the field of play should be treated like the goal line.


* He actually only used general language about a receiver being contacted in the air, but having looked up 7.6 in annoyance yesterday, I knew where to find exactly what he was talking about.
   78. Howie Menckel Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:30 PM (#5548475)
"Flags fly forever and a two time Super Bowl MVP is going to go into the Hall of Fame."

unless you are Jim Plunkett

well, Plunkett was only voted MVP in 1 of his 2 titles, but the writers make their selections with about 8 minutes left in the game. if anyone is going yea or nay based on SB MVP votes, they should have their children taken away.

I'd say no on either. a really good rule of thumb is "if I take one single play away from a player's entire career, and then he becomes not a HOFer - then he's not a HOFer."
   79. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: October 09, 2017 at 10:38 PM (#5548481)
I don't think Eli belongs in the HOF unless he chugs on a lot longer than I expect, but that one single play was pretty cool.
   80. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 09, 2017 at 11:36 PM (#5548515)
The Eli Hall of Fame talk is ludicrous.
   81. stevegamer Posted: October 10, 2017 at 12:02 AM (#5548521)
Eli Manning will very likely make the Hall of Fame due to being a QB in NYC who has 2 undeserved Super Bowl MVP awards.

I've had "arguments" about his MVP's where people point out that those awards are never shared, and never go to non-offensive players. So it goes to a QB, RB, or WR, and while the defense deserved it, you can't give it a whole defense, or more than one guy, so you have to give it to an offensive player.

Then they get to find out that their use of "never" is wrong, and that they once again have to think. Sadly, many people fail to do that.
   82. SoSH U at work Posted: October 10, 2017 at 01:19 AM (#5548539)
77. So I guess I wasn't the only person asking my TV why the hell that was a first down.

Thank you Lance.
   83. SoSH U at work Posted: October 10, 2017 at 01:25 AM (#5548541)
I'm not positive Eli will get elected, but I think he'll have to face more scrutiny than the even more undeserving Troy Aikman ever had to.

One of those teams is going to edge out the other for the division at 9-7 vs. 8-8, both of them buoyed by four free wins against the awful Bengals and historically inept Browns.


By the way, Paste, I've tried to come up with ways that the Bengals are somehow so much more inept than the Steelers and Ravens that you can chalk up three more victories to those AFC North powerhouses, but I simply can't make it work. I don't know how that statement makes a lick of sense.

   84. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 10, 2017 at 09:10 AM (#5548604)
Yeah, actually the Bengals looked terrible the first couple weeks, but better than the Ravens and Steelers the last few. I may still be giving those latter two teams too much credit; the Bengals seem just as likely to take the division at 8-8 or 9-7.
   85. zenbitz Posted: October 10, 2017 at 11:16 AM (#5548721)
The Eli Hall of Fame talk is ludicrous.


Well, which is it Ray? If defense isn't important and offense is all about the QB, how can Eli not get credit for his Playoff runs?
   86. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 10, 2017 at 12:50 PM (#5548838)
#85, Eli is 108-96. His rating is 83.9, most of that coming in a QB friendly era in which the league has shifted the rules significantly in favor of quarterbacks and the passing game. He's missed the playoffs in 7 of 13 seasons, which given the number of playoff slots is as solid an indictment of a QB as there is. His team has been ousted from the first round 4 of 6 times. Yes, he did win the two SBs. I don't think that nearly offsets what we've seen, which is a quarterback that is a step up from mediocre. You can maybe get him to "good" if you squint enough, although I think "above average" about pegs him. And he's durable - doesn't seem like he's ever missed a start.

So with slightly better than mediocre overall QB play and with durability and the two playoff runs I can make a case for him as a "good" quarterback.

He's miles from a great one.
   87. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 10, 2017 at 01:02 PM (#5548854)
And he's durable - doesn't seem like he's ever missed a start.


He hasn't. Like his big brother before he got old and messed up his neck, Eli has never missed a game in his life. The durability of both Manning brothers is spectacular.

Interestingly enough, Phil Rivers has also never missed a start in 11 years since supplanting Drew Brees as the Chargers' starter. He blew out his knee in a second round playoff win in January 2008--and played the AFC Championship on it the following week, in a futile effort against the undefeated Patriots. He got back in time for opening day 2008.
   88. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 10, 2017 at 01:35 PM (#5548893)
So with slightly better than mediocre overall QB play and with durability and the two playoff runs I can make a case for him as a "good" quarterback


He is clearly better than a 'slightly better than mediocre overall QB'. He is a very good QB, especially considering his durability. I don't think he's HoF worthy, but he's better than some QB's in there.
   89. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 10, 2017 at 01:58 PM (#5548916)
He blew out his knee in a second round playoff win in January 2008--and played the AFC Championship on it the following week, in a futile effort against the undefeated Patriots.


Was that the LDT wearing his helmet on the sidelines game? Tough to win with your QB and RB hurt.
   90. Ithaca2323 Posted: October 10, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5548988)
Eli is not a HOFer in my book. Two playoff runs do not overshadow the other 200 games he's played in.

But flags fly forever is incredibly apt when it comes to quarterbacks
   91. zenbitz Posted: October 10, 2017 at 03:21 PM (#5549013)
@86 Right, Eli is really quite average. He shouldn't sniff the HOF.

That is why he's a counter argument to "all you need is a QB and a HC to win the superbowl".
   92. zenbitz Posted: October 10, 2017 at 03:36 PM (#5549030)
Huh. He's actually quite the career value compiler. Something like 74th (there are many many ties) in PFR "Approximate Career Value Leaders". Between Vinnie Testaverde and Johnny Unitas, FWIW.

However his *rate* stats are not impressive: He's middle of the pack in Adjusted Yards per Pass Attempt and while 27th in Adjusted Net Yards per Pass Attempt, but there are 15 guys ahead of that are still playing and ~18 if you count recent "retirees" like his brother, or Tony Romo, or Kaepernick. But maybe that counts in his favor since he has played many more downs that some of those guys.

He has literally never been close to the best QB in the league in any given year. I mean, I guess career value + 2 SB wins would be an egregious pick.
   93. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 10, 2017 at 03:51 PM (#5549058)
Vinny Testaverde probably is the most comparable player to Eli Manning, both in form and results. Hugely hyped #1 pick, ups and downs, prone to looking great on the now-and-then occasions it all comes together, threw more interceptions than anyone else in his generation, because he was juuuust good enough to be allowed to keep starting every week and throwing interceptions, extraordinarily long career (in years in Testaverde's case, in durability in Eli's). Who knows, maybe Eli will still be kicking around in 2025.

On the contrast side, Testaverde had to overcome spending his formative years in a deeply screwed up organization and then was a journeyman the last 15 years of his career, whereas Manning, after his rookie year, got his feet under him with a good coach and a solid team around him and stayed with that team (and mostly that coach), for which reason he got to win a couple Super Bowls while Testaverde at about that age was escaping Tampa and trying to gain traction in Cleveland.

Something that always interested me about Vinny Testaverde is that some great coaches loved him. Bill Belichick brought him to Cleveland to supplant Bernie Kosar, and recommended him to Bill Parcells, who brought him to the Jets and then to the Cowboys, and Belichick brought him back to New England to back up Tom Brady for a year when Testaverde was 43.
   94. zenbitz Posted: October 10, 2017 at 04:40 PM (#5549124)
I mean, I guess career value + 2 SB wins would be an egregious pick.

NOT be an egregious pick.
   95. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 12, 2017 at 10:23 PM (#5552168)
Man, that was the softest pass interference call ever, to turn an interception into a 40 yard gain...
   96. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:14 PM (#5552342)
I'm not sure why we're counting INTs like Cam's second one as INTs.

He put it right into the dude's chest and the guy couldn't catch it and the INT came on the ricochet.

   97. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 12, 2017 at 11:20 PM (#5552367)
Cam flopped there.
   98. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 13, 2017 at 04:30 AM (#5552963)
I'm not sure why we're counting INTs like Cam's second one as INTs.

He put it right into the dude's chest and the guy couldn't catch it and the INT came on the ricochet.

Eh, every QB gets some of those though. I prefer leaving any subjectivity out of it. It's similar to the way that RA does a better job of actually accounting for how good a pitcher was than ERA. You do more harm than good by introducing subjectivity.

On a play like this it might be easy to figure. But at some point you are going to have to draw the line, where a pass goes from good enough to not count as a full interception, to just barely bad enough to count as a full interception. And that is just messy. You are counting a huge difference based on a very blurry line.
   99. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: October 13, 2017 at 08:04 AM (#5552974)
here's something for you vegas people to put in your back pocket:
LAST 2 EAGLES GAMES REF'D BY PETE MORELLI'S CREW:

EAGLES: 24 penalties for 237 yds
EAGLES OPPONENTS: 3 penalties for 19 yds

Pete Morelli’s crew in last FOUR Eagles games

Philly penalties - 40 for 396 yards
Opponent penalties - 8 for 72 yards
   100. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 15, 2017 at 04:34 PM (#5554368)
That fumble call against the Jets was... something. Going to be a lot of controversy around that one.
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