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Friday, February 15, 2019

OT - 2018-19 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to Twelfth of Never edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  Kyler Murray and how the Galactic Empire did nothing wrong.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 15, 2019 at 12:14 PM | 1586 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, off-topic

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   1. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: February 15, 2019 at 12:16 PM (#5815654)
Enjoy Nate Robinson ruining the dunk contest.
   2. aberg Posted: February 15, 2019 at 01:20 PM (#5815679)
Good timing. I got so far behind the old thread with work that having a new one makes me feel like I have less to catch up on.
   3. jmurph Posted: February 15, 2019 at 03:35 PM (#5815749)
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
Two names to quickly emerge in league circles as likely targets in the Pelicans’ GM search — albeit two candidates who have both been selective in the extreme in considering offers — are former Cavs and Suns GM David Griffin and longtime Celtics executive Mike Zarren

Ainge with the long game for the win!

(I'm kidding, I can't imagine Zarren takes that job and, if he did, he certainly couldn't turn around and give Davis to the Celtics.)
   4. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 15, 2019 at 04:06 PM (#5815759)
Danny Ferry was named the interim GM.
   5. tshipman Posted: February 15, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5815779)
Let this be a lesson.

Unabashed racism has no place in the NBA (for at least two years and after that point, you know, he's welcome back).
   6. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: February 15, 2019 at 04:48 PM (#5815781)
Eh I don't think the timing of this is particularly weird or problematic, I'm with PJ. They didn't like the way he handled the Davis situation and want to get the right person in place to make the trade/manage the rebuild. Certainly better now than in May/June.


Yeah, I'm on board with this take too. Davis talks were his last chance to save his job (I'm certain ownership had veto power if he was on the ropes). Seems reasonable.
   7. Fourth True Outcome Posted: February 15, 2019 at 04:49 PM (#5815782)
Unabashed racism has no place in the NBA (for at least two years and after that point, you know, he's welcome back).

At least they didn't do something crazy, like hire promising but unproven front office talent!
   8. tshipman Posted: February 15, 2019 at 05:00 PM (#5815784)
God, Danny Ferry's front office record is incredibly mediocre.
   9. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: February 15, 2019 at 05:17 PM (#5815787)
Apropos of nothing, here's a fun history of a draft pick (discovered via browsing Ferry's record):

In December 2011, the New Jersey Nets traded their 2015 second round pick to Utah for Mehmet Okur's dessicated corpse/expiring contract.

On draft day 2013, Utah sent the pick to Atlanta for the just-drafted Raul Neto, who is still on the Jazz bench today.

On draft day 2014, in one of Danny Ferry's final moves before... well, y'know, Atlanta sent the pick to Milwaukee for something called "Lamar Patterson."

Three days later, Milwaukee sent the pick back to its original owner, by now the Brooklyn Nets, as token compensation for Jason Kidd's services.

On draft day 2015, Brooklyn used the pick to draft Pat Connaughton, and minutes later traded him and a Plumlee to Portland, for Steve Blake and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson.
   10. JC in DC Posted: February 15, 2019 at 06:23 PM (#5815793)
Wow, I'm late to piling on Danny Ferry. I was going to make the point that NBA owners are just so unimaginative. There are probably a couple of writers, and a couple of bloggers, and maybe even a couple of folks here, I'd hire before Danny Ferry.
   11. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: February 15, 2019 at 06:25 PM (#5815794)
Ferry was Cleveland's GM for most of LeBron's first tenure there. What's their relationship like?
   12. billyshears Posted: February 15, 2019 at 06:35 PM (#5815795)
I suspect that Demps was always gone at the end of the year. But when the Davis shitstorm hit so quickly, they couldn't very well fire him in the middle of it without seeming weak and in total disarray. But Demps was likely never going to be allowed to make a deal.
   13. rr: drool-soaked and paralytic Posted: February 15, 2019 at 07:17 PM (#5815802)
(I'm kidding, I can't imagine Zarren takes that job and, if he did, he certainly couldn't turn around and give Davis to the Celtics.)


I don't see him taking the job, but, actually, if he did, sure he could.

Pelicans: As people have noted, the Pelicans have NFL-influenced ownership, and I think that is probably affecting their handling of this and their reactions to Davis' behavior and that of his agent. The fact that it's the Lakers and LeBron James is affecting the situation as well. But ultimately, the Pelicans are waiting to see what other teams offer in July. There is always a bottom line in any negotiation. As to Demps, he deserves to get canned for not doing a good job building the NO roster, but not for his handling of the Davis situation, even if he was "trolling." Nobody except a certain percentage of Lakers fans wanted him to trade Davis here for the package offered, and he didn't. Finally, I don't think Ferry or whoever will be able to use some sort of mojo to get more out of Boston, New York, or the Lakers, or any other team, than Demps would have.
   14. spivey Posted: February 15, 2019 at 08:32 PM (#5815811)
Holy ######## the Kawhi Leonard shoes are awful
   15. shout-out to 57i66135; that shit's working now Posted: February 15, 2019 at 11:31 PM (#5815822)
Let this be a lesson.

Unabashed racism has no place in the NBA (for at least two years and after that point, you know, he's welcome back).
the 2nd sentence from ferry's wiki:
"Considered one of the most celebrated basketball players in the United States from the high school graduating class of 1985, Ferry chose to attend Duke University."

'nuff said.



but to be (slightly) more serious:
1: that comment was made because ferry was trying to explain something from a scouting report someone else had written.
2: the only reason why anyone ever found out about it, was because some shitbag partial owner was in the middle of an all out war against the other hawks co-owners, and he publicized ferry's comments not because he was offended or because he thought they were wrong (IIRC, that guy was a racist piece of ####, himself), but as a wedge to create public pressure so the other owners would give him what he wanted.
3: i'm pretty sure ferry has apologized a bunch of times for what he said.


in related news:
"Americans don’t really have any idea what’s going on in the world, especially us Africans. When they think about Africans, they think about us running around with lions and tigers and all those other animals. When I got to Kansas I kind of used that to my advantage, talking about how I killed a lion and that’s how I became a man. At six years old I had to go into the jungle and kill a lion and had to carry it on my back and carry it back to the village to show I’m a man. And they bought into it. I don’t know. It might be true or it might be false. I don’t know. But that’s the perception."


and here's video of embiid telling the story to a bunch of white people.
   16. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2019 at 12:47 PM (#5815869)
Anthony Davis shot down reports that Boston wasn't among his preferred teams. "They are on my list." When asked to clarify why there was the perception that he wouldn't consider the Celtics, Davis replied: “They were never not on my list.”
   17. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5815876)
Also:
Pelicans fans, breathe easy. Anthony Davis will leave something special just for you as he exits: "I will always have love for the city of NO. When that time comes I am going to definitely have a heartwarming message for them and put it out on Instagram like everybody else does."
He later said he never gave a destination of where he wants to play, and that wherever he gets traded to, he'll play for them until free agency comes and then "we'll see what happens."
   18. rr: drool-soaked and paralytic Posted: February 16, 2019 at 01:22 PM (#5815878)
Davis actually said that all 29 other teams are on his list...including Boston. Davis seems to be a guy who wants people to like him and saying "Trade me to the Lakers" is a pretty good way not to achieve that. He was asked directly about Boston.
   19. rr: drool-soaked and paralytic Posted: February 16, 2019 at 01:22 PM (#5815879)
Davis actually said that all 29 other teams are on his list...including Boston. Davis seems to be a guy who wants people to like him and saying "Trade me to the Lakers" is a pretty good way not to achieve that. He was asked directly about Boston.
   20. rr: drool-soaked and paralytic Posted: February 16, 2019 at 01:23 PM (#5815880)
double post...on phone
   21. PJ Martinez Posted: February 16, 2019 at 01:50 PM (#5815885)
Here's a rundown of Davis's awkward press availability. He began by saying that there was a list, but that that was between his agent and the Pelicans. Then, when asked about Boston, he said Boston was never not on the list. Then (in a later interview) he said that he'd play for all twenty-nine teams. Not sure if he was garbling the talking points, or there were no talking points, or what. Not the smoothest performance of all time. He also said this:
I had a plan, and had steps to follow that plan. I did what I was supposed to do. Obviously I knew there was a chance it wasn’t going to happen because the Pelicans had to make that decision. But I followed that plan.
   22. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 16, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5815894)
that comment was made because ferry was trying to explain something from a scouting report someone else had written.


In fact, my understanding is that Ferry was simply reading the scouting report straight off the page. They came out of his mouth, but they were not his words.

   23. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 16, 2019 at 09:02 PM (#5815929)
Seth Curry is no Steph Curry.
   24. Tin Angel Posted: February 16, 2019 at 09:05 PM (#5815930)
They should add a Lonzo Ball/Ben Simmons game of horse to all star weekend.
   25. Tin Angel Posted: February 16, 2019 at 09:32 PM (#5815933)
Either the microphones are very far away from the crowd in Charlotte, or everyone is asleep.
   26. JC in DC Posted: February 16, 2019 at 09:45 PM (#5815934)
There is little in sports less interesting than NBA All-Star weekend.
   27. Tin Angel Posted: February 16, 2019 at 09:56 PM (#5815935)
There is little in sports less interesting than NBA All-Star weekend.


Reggie Miller certainly doesn't help.
   28. Tin Angel Posted: February 16, 2019 at 10:04 PM (#5815936)
Mugsy!
   29. JC in DC Posted: February 18, 2019 at 11:45 AM (#5816102)
Is there a different thread, or did everyone go home for some home cooked meals for the asg?
   30. Booey Posted: February 18, 2019 at 11:58 AM (#5816112)
Is there a different thread, or did everyone go home for some home cooked meals for the asg?


Nothing interesting goes on during the All Star break. Including the AS game itself.
   31. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: February 18, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5816125)
There is little in sports less interesting than NBA All-Star weekend.
Nothing interesting goes on during the All Star break. Including the AS game itself.
Agree to disagree. Nothing important gets televised, but I enjoy all the tomfoolery. The skills competition got drastically more interesting when they made it head-to-head (and this year's edition ended on a dramatic half-court shot); Steph Curry threw a successful alley-oop bounce pass to Giannis that went so high it was out of frame on the TV; J Cole failed to dunk during the dunk contest*; and through it all, I was entertained.

* okay, this is better support for the other position than mine. The dunk contest really is a bit of a dud when all the stars sit it out, unless by luck it turns into an all-time exhibition between Gordon and LaVine.
   32. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 18, 2019 at 01:06 PM (#5816142)
I enjoy the ASG weekend, there's just not much to say about it.
   33. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 18, 2019 at 01:06 PM (#5816145)
Old thread, just for posterity. If you can Lance, I'd also edit the thread to include an NBA tag.
   34. spivey Posted: February 18, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5816162)
Is the ASB always this long? No real games for a week is asking a lot of me.
   35. Howie Menckel Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5816166)
Spurs have 9 days off.
it used to be 4 for those not in the game.
   36. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5816167)
I think last year was the first year they did the extended break. I think the players pushed for it, and good for them, but #### it's boring for us.
   37. Master of the Horse Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5816171)
Simmons sharing the rumor that the Knicks are for sale or could be had and the starting price without the Garden is 4 billion. Thoughts?
   38. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:18 PM (#5816172)
Thoughts?
No way Dolan deserves to come out that far ahead.
   39. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:21 PM (#5816173)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania 17m17 minutes ago

The New York Knicks‘ statement on discussions of owner James Dolan courting offers to sell the team: “The story is 100% false. There has been nothing. No discussions. No plans to have discussions -- nothing.”


No way Dolan deserves to come out that far ahead.

Deserves got nothing to do with it.
   40. KronicFatigue Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5816180)
There was an article a couple of weeks ago that priced the Knicks as the #1 NBA franchise in terms of value, and that just blew my mind. My only guess is that Knicks can charge an infinite amount of money for corporate suites and those suites just write off those costs. It's depressing to think that business model is more important than winning (or at the least not sucking) for the past 18 years.
   41. Master of the Horse Posted: February 18, 2019 at 02:53 PM (#5816182)
   42. tshipman Posted: February 18, 2019 at 03:16 PM (#5816188)
There was an article a couple of weeks ago that priced the Knicks as the #1 NBA franchise in terms of value, and that just blew my mind.


I mean, really? They're the team in the biggest market in the league that they largely have to themselves. They own the single most valuable arena outright.

It'd be surprising if they weren't. The Lakers might go for more in an auction format, but that would be driven by irrational preferences if it were to happen.
   43. aberg Posted: February 18, 2019 at 07:26 PM (#5816256)
They own the single most valuable arena outright.


Is that built into the Forbes valuation? I get that Dolan is worth more because he owns both MSG and the Knicks. I also get that both are probably worth more when owned by the same party than if they were owned separately. But if you're just evaluating what the Knicks are worth, why are we considering what else the owner has in his portfolio?
   44. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: February 18, 2019 at 07:44 PM (#5816259)
Please just wait to sell until after the Wolves trade Wiggins into space, to be Boogie’s running mate.
   45. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: February 18, 2019 at 07:52 PM (#5816260)
But if you're just evaluating what the Knicks are worth, why are we considering what else the owner has in his portfolio?
I imagine because it eases scheduling problems for the team. The Knicks just don't have to deal with a Spurs-style Rodeo Road Trip every year (or if they do, it's because the owner was fine with it). Not a $2 billion difference, but not nothing.
   46. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: February 18, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5816263)
Please just wait to sell until after the Wolves trade Wiggins into space
I know Wiggins is disappointing, but sending him into orbit seems a little extreme. (Obviously if you can get a return on the level of a MonStar, you bite the bullet and trade the man into space.)
   47. Howie Menckel Posted: February 18, 2019 at 08:42 PM (#5816270)
But if you're just evaluating what the Knicks are worth, why are we considering what else the owner has in his portfolio?

per Knicks alone, their $1B renovation in recent years has MSG now as modern as new arenas are in terms of money-making amenities. and of course there are countless Fortune 500 companies in NYC. that's the biggest driver.

the other aspect, I have noted before, is the 1990s.

not only did the Knicks advance to at least the second round of the playoffs for nine straight seasons, they and their fans had title dreams every time.
Knicks-Bulls series were epic.
Knicks-Pacers series were epic.
Knicks-Heat series were epic.
and two NBA Finals to boot.

you had the World's Most Famous Arena hosting as intense a playoff game as one could hope for - game after game, year after year, over and over. the fact that they never won it all was a disappointment, but the fact that they always had a chance but never were so dominant that it would have lessened the drama - that is quite the competitive sweet spot.

most of those fans are still around, and they can still afford season tickets and luxury suites. they'd pay almost anything just to be in good position should the magic ever return. so they do.

"They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it - for it is money they have, and peace they lack.

"They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the baselines, where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters. The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces."

if the Knicks ever contend again, they won't have to build anything. and the people, they already come.
   48. tshipman Posted: February 18, 2019 at 11:32 PM (#5816290)
Is that built into the Forbes valuation? I get that Dolan is worth more because he owns both MSG and the Knicks. I also get that both are probably worth more when owned by the same party than if they were owned separately. But if you're just evaluating what the Knicks are worth, why are we considering what else the owner has in his portfolio?


It's built into the Forbes evaluation. We're considering it because it would almost certainly be part of the selling price, I'd have to imagine. Most NBA owners prefer to own their own arenas.
   49. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 19, 2019 at 07:57 AM (#5816306)
   50. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: February 19, 2019 at 08:19 AM (#5816309)
Money quote:

SIX DAYS LATER, on June 21, Scala, Harris and their boss, Special Agent in Charge Kevin Hallinan, traveled to the NBA offices in midtown Manhattan and sat down with commissioner David Stern and three other league executives: deputy commissioner Adam Silver, president Joel Litvin and senior vice president of security Bernie Tolbert, a former FBI agent. The agents informed Stern that it had come to their attention that one of their veteran refs, Tim Donaghy, had been betting on his own games and giving inside information to a gambling ring, for a fee. The Feds made no mention of game-fixing. To Scala, Stern seemed mostly upset that the NBA's in-house security people had failed to discover Donaghy's wrongdoing before the FBI. The commissioner promised the league's full cooperation.

Today, Scala considers that meeting a mistake. "If you're going to ask me if I would do it differently now, the answer is yes. I would not have gone to brief Stern," Scala told me. (Through the NBA, Stern declined an interview request for this story.) In Donaghy's many conversations with the Feds through these weeks, he had begun pointing fingers and making allegations about other referees -- other refs who may have been corrupt. So the FBI had worked out a plan. "We were prepared to do some undercover things to corroborate Donaghy's story," Scala says. Namely, they were going to wire up Donaghy so he could get other allegedly corrupted NBA referees to incriminate themselves.

About a month after the meeting with Stern, however, the New York Post blared news of the FBI investigation across its front page. "Our plans were blown up by the fact that somebody leaked this," Scala lamented to me. "I don't like to talk in terms of coulda, woulda, shoulda, but if the Post story didn't come out, [Donaghy] would have worn a wire, and I don't know where it would have gone. Things may have been different. That's the bottom line."
   51. . . . . . . Posted: February 19, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5816333)
Maybe this is because I do peripheral work with some of relevant players in the story, but I had thought the stuff in the ESPN article was common knowledge. He operated in the zone between fixing and not.
   52. JL72 Posted: February 19, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5816347)
So, the NBA might not have been completely forthcoming...


A really excellent article that should be read. For a network that all to often gives us dreck, this is a reminder of what it can do when it sets its mind to being journalists.

Maybe this is because I do peripheral work with some of relevant players in the story, but I had thought the stuff in the ESPN article was common knowledge. He operated in the zone between fixing and not.


None of it surprised me, but my recollection is that folks assumed there was some fixing without knowing the extent. This article demonstrates how much he was doing it and how much money was following his actions. I am clearly uneducated about the underground betting world, as I was surprised at the dollar amounts involved.

Edit - I will say I am not surprised by they theory that the NBA spiked the investigation. I have always assumed they did not want to know the full scope of what Donaghy really did.
   53. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: February 19, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5816351)
Haven't read the article yet and assuming I'm alone on this, but at no point have I ever really cared about the Donaghy stuff. There's so much inherent bias in asking humans to do the subjective job of refereeing/umpiring that I can't get worked up about some of that being attributable to gambling/fixing. Probably the same reason I'm not concerned about legalized gambling. The scale would just have to be massive.
   54. JL72 Posted: February 19, 2019 at 01:37 PM (#5816462)
The scale would just have to be massive.


Two items from the article that give me pause:

1) It looks at about 40 games per year that they called into question for Donaghy; and

2) Donaghy alleged there were other referees, but never wore the wire because someone (probably the NBA) leaked the issue before they could go that route.

If there were 2-3 others who were altering 40 games a year each, that could be massive.

Having said that, I have not idea if this is accurate.
   55. aberg Posted: February 19, 2019 at 01:51 PM (#5816472)
Imagine if there were 40 refs and each of them altered 40 games. That would be 1600 altered games in a season, way more than the ~1200 games that happen every regular season. The refs are creating games that never even existed! That's a big deal! Follow the money.
   56. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: February 19, 2019 at 01:54 PM (#5816474)
I mean, the sums at play were huge, and the payoffs for Donaghy tiny in comparison. I would think that that would mean that there is a strong, strong incentive for tons more game fixing. I would in fact be shocked if Donaghy was the end of the story.
   57. KronicFatigue Posted: February 19, 2019 at 02:27 PM (#5816516)
The biggest surprise for me, like JL72, was the amounts of money that moved around on these fixed games. I'm godsmacked that people are arguing that legalizing gambling will make it more transparent (true) and thus less likely for corruption (WTF??). If you offer an infinite number of way to place bets, especially online, you can move around a ton more money in smaller, less traceable, ways.

I keep trying to break my sports addiction, because of things like this. I've come close, but not there yet.
   58. JL72 Posted: February 19, 2019 at 02:30 PM (#5816519)
I'm godsmacked that people are arguing that legalizing gambling will make it more transparent (true) and thus less likely for corruption (WTF??). If you offer an infinite number of way to place bets, especially online, you can move around a ton more money in smaller, less traceable, ways.


I definitely agree on the latter. If you have a ref in your pocket, it will be so much easier to truly make money while staying under the radar. Of course the guys who were running Donaghy were too dumb and kept upping things. They really killed the golden goose.

The one (potential) benefit is that with more casinos involved, there will be more analysis that will catch anomalies more quickly. But I am not sure that will happen.
   59. PJ Martinez Posted: February 19, 2019 at 10:36 PM (#5816695)
Re: the Donaghy stuff, here's a long discussion on Reddit that is partly devoted to wondering why current NBA ref Scott Foster was not subjected to more scrutiny.
   60. tshipman Posted: February 20, 2019 at 01:00 AM (#5816712)
Good in depth cap analysis on the Knicks offseason plans:

Insisting that he could easily lure several free agents into giving up their hopes for a championship, Knicks president Steve Mills confirmed Tuesday that he was confident the team had the requisite cap space to ruin two or three promising careers this offseason. “After making moves at the trade deadline to position ourselves, we are poised to sign at least two franchise players who will squander the prime of their careers here,” said Mills, who noted that the 2019 free agency class was “absolutely loaded” with superstar players that could blow out their knees, feud with the front office, or languish in a coaching system that doesn’t fit their talents. “If we play our cards right, we might even be able to convince three marquee players to take a pay cut, surround them with marginal talent, then have them wallow in the dregs of the Eastern conference for the next half decade and never return to their former levels. And with our promising position in the 2019 NBA draft, we might even be able to destroy the career of a highly touted college prospect along with them.” At press time, Kevin Durant was considered a leading contender to be signed and then traded away for extra cap space in 2022.
   61. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: February 20, 2019 at 07:39 AM (#5816724)
I think that this summer is the only chance the Wolves will have to get out from Wiggins’ deal, and it will require a stupid team with cap space panicking. Doesn’t that sound just like the Knicks?
   62. JC in DC Posted: February 20, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5816785)
[53] I don't get the indifference at all, nor the claim about "subjective bias." Subjective bias is often taken to mean the operation of a bias at a non-voluntary level, e.g., despite my best effort, I might make a close call the Knicks way b/c I grew up a Knicks fan (though it could work the other way as well). The allegation here is that Donaghy entered games trying to effect outcomes by his "bias". More bluntly: he was rewarded for calling fouls on one team and ignoring those by the other. For instance, calling two fouls on Iguodala in the first 40 secs of a game, calling 12 fouls in a row on one team, and so on. That's not "subjective bias." That's action and reward. And while I understand the bias of refs not to be treated like #### that might incline them to favor the home team, I don't understand being indifferent to games the Pistons might have been screwed in b/c the ref was paid $2k to produce an outcome.
   63. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 20, 2019 at 02:39 PM (#5816879)
Haven't read the article yet and assuming I'm alone on this, but at no point have I ever really cared about the Donaghy stuff. There's so much inherent bias in asking humans to do the subjective job of refereeing/umpiring that I can't get worked up about some of that being attributable to gambling/fixing. Probably the same reason I'm not concerned about legalized gambling. The scale would just have to be massive.


Reading the article helps contextualize, Donaghy mentioned to his associate that he could influence the game by as much as 6 points. And in a planned out way - he mentions calling a foul for illegal defense very early in a game to get that team off of their set defense a bit, make them play a little passively. Or he would target the teams center or star player. As #62 said - that is not 'inherent bias'.
   64. spivey Posted: February 20, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5816884)
I agree with #62/63. As for the Scott Foster stuff... he's a total ump show, but reading that thread and reading more about it - he was reviewed both by the league and by an independent FBI team from what I could tell. Sure, maybe he covered it up well, but I'm guessing if a paper trail or money trail existed they'd have been able to find it. I suspect that Donaghy may have used him without Foster's knowledge.
   65. aberg Posted: February 20, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5816887)
I think a generally good defense to charges of a conspiracy is, "look at me! Do I look organized or competent enough to participate in a conspiracy?" In Foster's case, the presumption would be definitely not.
   66. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: February 20, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5816889)
It's easy to have a conspiracy with 1 or 2 smart people and the rest of the people are bozos taking orders.
   67. aberg Posted: February 20, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5816898)
Embiid is going to be out at least another week with problems in his left knee. That can't be good news for the Sixers.
   68. RJ in TO Posted: February 20, 2019 at 03:41 PM (#5816901)
It'll be a month, once the Sixer's medical staff gets a hold of him.
   69. SteveF Posted: February 20, 2019 at 05:44 PM (#5816948)
He might have a muscle imbalance in his knees.
   70. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 20, 2019 at 09:43 PM (#5816973)
In CBB news, Zion went out of the game 30 seconds in. Just announced as a knee injury, but it did not look too bad at the time.
   71. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: February 20, 2019 at 10:07 PM (#5816978)
If I'm Zion, I don't play another minute of college ball.
   72. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: February 20, 2019 at 10:13 PM (#5816979)
[61] Lowe mentioned off the cuff in his deadline column that several teams inquired about Wiggins and were told he isn't available.

I suspect the inquiries were of a "so how big a bounty will you pay us to swallow his contract?" nature, but Lowe didn't elaborate that far.
   73. shout-out to 57i66135; that shit's working now Posted: February 20, 2019 at 10:20 PM (#5816980)
more importantly:
@KyleNeubeck
Zhaire Smith made his triumphant return to #Sixers practice. Big takeaways — Brett Brown seemed pessimistic about an NBA-level return this year, and Jimmy Butler thinks he could kick his ass at UNO: phillyvoice.com/sixers-zhaire-…

#priorities
   74. KronicFatigue Posted: February 20, 2019 at 10:29 PM (#5816982)
NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: February 20, 2019 at 10:07 PM (#5816978)
If I'm Zion, I don't play another minute of college ball.


I'm going to guess that's tongue in cheek, but isn't he guaranteed to be #1 even even with a major injury? And that his 1st contract is locked in?

So, the real strategy is to not play another minute for the next 3.5 years
   75. spivey Posted: February 20, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5816984)
I think NJ's post is not tongue in cheek, and I think I probably agree with it. Extra to watch Coach K and the privileged students turn on him. But who knows. If it's a slight tweak and he feels fine in a couple of days, he probably gets back at it.
   76. tshipman Posted: February 20, 2019 at 11:35 PM (#5816990)
College basketball is a moral abomination.

Zion could have had his career over, before it ever started, because of a shoe deal that his school profited off of.
   77. KronicFatigue Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:21 AM (#5816997)
If Zion sits out the rest of the season (without an injury that warrants it), he's going to hurt his brand. The real dollars lost immediately from his first endorsement deals plus potential future losses if he can't shake the soft/selfish reputation is higher than the chance of an injury that derails his rookie contract.

College kids should be paid, absolutely. But they also get a non zero value in making a name for themselves on the college stage.

   78. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: February 21, 2019 at 07:59 AM (#5817011)
The Raptors 905 is playing in Degrassi uniforms this weekend. That is all.
   79. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: February 21, 2019 at 08:05 AM (#5817012)
I don't know, I think a lot of NBA fans hate Duke and are not fans of college basketball generally. Throwing a wrench in their season by making a smart self-interested decision might endear Zion to a lot of people. Once he starts playing in the NBA I think people would forget pretty quickly anyway.

As a corollary, the presumptive #1 pick in the NFL draft Nick Bosa got injured in September, withdrew from OSU and prepared for the draft. Doesn't seem to have harmed his stock at all. The NBA is different in terms of star-level branding but I think Zion would be fine.
   80. JC in DC Posted: February 21, 2019 at 09:13 AM (#5817019)
I don't suspect Zion hurts his brand at all if he sits out. People understand what's going on here. College bball is virtually unwatchable and indefensible at this point, in no small part b/c of Coach K's awful hair dye.
   81. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: February 21, 2019 at 09:24 AM (#5817022)
I don't pay any attention to the Plantation League, but I would be surprised if there was much backlash against a player deciding to sit out after an injury, particularly one who is all over the Twitters and the Instagrams and the suchlike.
   82. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:01 AM (#5817030)
If Zion sits out the rest of the season (without an injury that warrants it), he's going to hurt his brand. The real dollars lost immediately from his first endorsement deals plus potential future losses if he can't shake the soft/selfish reputation is higher than the chance of an injury that derails his rookie contract.

Echoing the last 4 or so posts, I also don't think this will happen at all. It's already been happening in college football the last few years - guys sitting out bowl games, etc. Zion is already well known, he doesn't really need the add'l exposure from the NCAA tourney. Considering he's already the consensus #1, playing more can only hurt him.
   83. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5817035)
I may have asked this in here before, but Zion stuff seems like as good of time to ask again. IF NBA goes back to allowing high schoolers direct entry, do you all think there will be any other changes that go along with that? Or basically just back to how it used to be? Seems like high schoolers coming back into the pros is going to happen, but I'm sure NBA GMs aren't excited about scouting high schoolers, making the draft even tougher, and probably making rookie deals less valuable if even more of them are going to be spent on guys not ready to contribute to winning.

EDIT - And I'm not trying to say high schoolers shouldn't be allowed entry. I just know there are reasons the NBA preferred not to do it.
   84. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:09 AM (#5817039)
Maybe they would want to sign high schoolers to a 4-year rookie contract instead of 3 years. Now that the NBA has a rudimentary farm system it could stash them in for the first year, which it didn't back when Robert Swift and Korleone Young were getting drafted.
   85. spivey Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:18 AM (#5817042)
I'd like to see them change the rule, but I'm skeptical. When Stern was commish I'm pretty sure it was the owners that wanted to get rid of the rule for the reasons in #83. The players it affects aren't in the NBAPA yet. Unclear on college, but I'm guessing they like it as is now too - the real stars of the college game are often one-and-done freshmen. Not all of them would have skipped college, probably, but some of the very best would have.
   86. PJ Martinez Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:42 AM (#5817050)
Adam Silver said over the summer that the NBA is ready to get rid of the one-and-done rule, and my understanding was that it would likely be gone in time for the 2021 draft. Has there been news since then?
   87. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:52 AM (#5817052)
Adam Silver said over the summer that the NBA is ready to get rid of the one-and-done rule, and my understanding was that it would likely be gone in time for the 2021 draft. Has there been news since then?


Not that I've actually seen. I'm just still skeptical that "get rid of it" means get rid of it on its own without other changes going along with getting rid of it.
   88. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: February 21, 2019 at 10:53 AM (#5817053)
I love college hoops.
That aside, college players should be paid, preps should be able to play in the NBA, and the system needs infinite reforms.
   89. JJ1986 Posted: February 21, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5817056)
I heard somewhere that they had pushed the target back to 2022 because there were outstanding 2021 first-round picks at the time, but not later ones.
   90. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: February 21, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5817059)
I have as well.
   91. KronicFatigue Posted: February 21, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5817079)
Ok, I'll concede I'm wrong. Was Zion a huge name coming out of highschool? I know sometimes you need a catalyst to spark a movement, but has there ever been any talk of Freshman sitting out the last chunk of a NCAA season because they have nothing left to prove? Football I can see just because injuries are much more common. I'm just very surprised that a player, even a clear #1 can't add a bunch of money to their first shoe contract based on a strong March.

Is Zion the exception, or should this be the rule?
   92. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: February 21, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5817087)
Was Zion a huge name coming out of highschool?

Drake was wearing his jersey when he was a junior in High School. Potential/performance discussion aside, Zion is the biggest/most well known prospect since LeBron. Social media allows for the top young players to build huge followings.

EDIT: Which is part of why even if you don't want to literally pay the players, it's not clear to me why they shouldn't be able to monetize their status.
   93. KronicFatigue Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5817101)
If I'm annoying everyone with my questions, I'll stop, but I'm really interested in everyone's thought process regarding Zion sitting.

1) Would people be less inclined to have Zion sit if college players were paid? Does it matter how much they're getting paid? In other words, are you offended that they are free labor, or is it the risk of missing out on "lifetime" money?

2) Do we agree the risk for injury goes in this order: games > scrimmage > drills > conditioning? If so, where should Zion be? Drills?

3) What kind of injury risks "lifetime money"? And is that the only kind of injury that's a legitimate risk to Zion? How often has a player been injured to the point where their NBA career is over based on one injury? I guess in this case, it would have to be an injury where no team would draft Zion in the first round, right? Because as long as he's drafted in the 1st round, he's still got liftime money.

4) If Zion gets an injury that has him sitting for 18 months, is he still getting drafted in the 1st round?

5) In terms of expected value, nobody else thinks that Zion having a great March could generate more future dollars than what he could lose based on injury? Or that there's a baketball-value in him playing under pressure, having a longer season (to gear up for the NBA grind, etc)?

6) Isn't Melo still kinda known for winning as a Frosh in Syracuse? Didn't that kinda of set his brand up for a long time (I know, different era with social media)

Thanks for indulging me!
   94. jmurph Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:18 PM (#5817105)
KP twitter thread on a much-discussed topic here: allowing a high number of 3PA while still being a good defense (he links to a Cleaning the Glass article, but I'm not a subscriber).
   95. PJ Martinez Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:21 PM (#5817107)
as long as he's drafted in the 1st round, he's still got liftime money
This seems incorrect to me. What are we defining as "lifetime money" here?

As for past precedents: I realize that Kyrie Irving came back for the tournament, but I don't recall that being important in terms of establishing his fame. He went no. 1 in the draft, was an instant star in the NBA, and it didn't matter at all, as far as I can tell, that he had only played, what, eleven games for the Blue Devils?
   96. KronicFatigue Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:29 PM (#5817113)
I did a quick google...the 1st hit was a 2009 report, the 2nd hit was a 2017 article that said the best report they could find was that 2009 one. Anyway:

High school graduates (88% of the population, per 2015 Census numbers): $900,000
Associate’s degree (42.3%): $1.1 million
Bachelor’s degree or higher (32.5% with bachelor’s, 12% with advanced degrees): $1.8 million


Are rookie contracts guaranteed for 2 years? I'm out of my depth here, but looks like the 30th pick is around 3 million for those 2 years. I imagine he'd still have an endorsement deal too, albeit a small one. That feels like lifetime money. Yeah, he's going to get taxed harder getting his entire lifetime's money up front, but then he has a lifetime to invest the rest.
   97. PJ Martinez Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:45 PM (#5817118)
Not only taxes but also agent's fees; that three million quickly gets halved, at least, I suspect. The draftee probably wants to find a place to live, which could easily eat up the rest -- and that's putting aside the question of whether he wants or needs to use any money to support his family, which is often the case. I doubt there's much left for investing, and it's not nearly enough to support someone going forward otherwise. (Say you've got sixty years left in your life, which is a conservative estimate for a 19-year-old: 1.5 million divided by sixty is $25,000, which is insufficient for an annual salary in most American cities.)
   98. jmurph Posted: February 21, 2019 at 01:52 PM (#5817122)
re: the college/high school thing, beginning next year players can go directly to the G-League from high school:
Adam Johnson @AdamJ_NBAGL
If elite players want to forego college next year the G League has select contracts. Players can earn $125K & sign endorsement deals as well.

The option is there for players, the question is whether some will take advantage of it after last night’s Zion Williamson injury scare.
   99. KronicFatigue Posted: February 21, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5817129)
As of now, Zion doesn't have an agent. If he got injured next week, and it was the kind that dropped him to 30th in the draft and could possibly be career ending, I imagine he'd either forgo an agent, or get a cheaper one. And he'd make different life choices as to where to live, etc. The typical #1 can blow a bunch of money because they have a high probability of making money for a decade. But not in this case. Also, of course he WANTS to set up his family with money, but I imagine that's the case for many americans, who never get that chance either.

   100. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: February 21, 2019 at 02:16 PM (#5817133)
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