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Wednesday, May 30, 2018

OT - 2018 NBA Summer Potpourri (finals, draft, free agency, Colangelo dragging)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  complaints about mayonnaise.


EDIT: image is shrunken. Mouse over to show full size. -vi

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:56 AM | 3814 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   3001. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:40 AM (#5707608)
I figured they would go after Parker -- I wonder what the story is there.


Probably no one trusts his knee and everyone is aware it would take a near-max offer to stop Milwaukee from matching. He’s not so great a player to make that a palatable risk.

You might say, what the hell, give the guy an offer sheet and if they match they match, what’s the downside? Well, it does irritate your fellow GMs (and owners) when you offer sheet their RFAs, and that’s not insignificant.
   3002. JJ1986 Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5707611)
Well, it does irritate your fellow GMs (and owners) when you offer sheet their RFAs, and that’s not insignificant.
Maybe, but it can also help your relationship with the player agent.
   3003. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5707617)
Hell, even a near-max offer Milwaukee might very well match. Remember Enes Kanter? Everyone thought Portland had completely lost their minds—and then OKC matched.
   3004. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5707618)
“Guys who go out after reading two books with their little glasses and tight pants.” This is how Charles Oakley describes the the coaches and front office types who get so much of the publicity in today’s NBA. “That’s basketball. They never played the game, but they know everything. It’s killing the game.”

This line of thinking is often maddening coming from the game’s old guard, but it’s almost endearing to hear it out of Oakley in a setting like the Big 3. There are no analytics nerds here. There is only jacked Mike Bibby.


link
   3005. JJ1986 Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5707624)
Hell, even a near-max offer Milwaukee might very well match.
They'd have to clear significant salary first; they're hardcapped.
   3006. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5707626)
What are the Rockets going to do now? Sign James Ennis? Play Tucker at the 3 and Carmelo at the 4? Start Vince Edwards?


People thought Mbah a Moute was washed up the last time he was on the Clippers. Gerald Green spent ten years considered a good stats bad team guy. The Rockets only signed him after the Bucks had him for most of preseason and then waived him! I'm sure the Rockets have plans for what to do.
   3007. PJ Martinez Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5707629)
Adding to 3005: the most Milwaukee can offer Parker right now is something like 17m per, I gather, because they were hard-capped after the Lopez signing. As I understand it, they can get just over 20m if they waive a couple of non-guaranteed guys. I read somewhere that Parker's max would start at 25m; if that's correct, they're pretty far from the max.
   3008. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5707659)
I don't think they would match an offer beyond their current capabilities, as:
- he's a lousy fit for Bud's system
- he's not that good
   3009. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5707678)
the Bucks aren't technically hard-capped, because they haven't officially signed Ersan or Brook yet. They don't seem to have much urgency with Jabari at all though, and seem to be encouraging him to find another offer. Jon Horst said on Sunday that he talks to Jabari's agent every day, which I interpret as him checking in to see if Jabari's come to grips with his lack of market value and is now willing to sign whatever the Bucks have offered.

I think Jabari being a lousy fit for Bud is overblown, he's an okay passer and a good shooter for his size. I don't think they match on anything over about 15 million though.
   3010. aberg Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5707703)
I'm just catching up, but I really like Lopez for the Bucks. He provides what they were hoping Maker would become- a combo of three point shooting and shot blocking. They can easily use him in lineups with Giannis or when he rests as a bigger offensive focus. I would imagine that they will close out games with Bledsoe, Middleton, Giannis, Lopez, and one of Brogdon or Snell, which looks like a very solid two-way lineup to me. Players who fit better + a vastly better coach makes them an interesting dark horse in the east.

Going back to the Wiggins discussion from a couple days ago, my head and heart are split. My head is in line with the position that there are underlying skills to become a very good player that just need to be unlocked by experience, effort, and fit. Or at a minimum, there is a higher likelihood of that outcome than of getting a very good player somehow by trading him. My heart worries that the lack of progress is representative of something that will prevent him from ever reaching his physical potential. I guess it all depends on what you could get for him in a trade. I'm terrified of paying him $30m in a few years, but I also can't rationalize trading him for nothing because it's hard to get talent to Minnesota and he definitely has talent.
   3011. Just TFTIO Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5707707)
My heart worries that the lack of progress is representative of something that will prevent him from ever reaching his physical potential.

It's contextual -- I wonder how he'd fare under a better coach?
   3012. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5707721)
I was thinking about this yesterday: is there a good example of a player who came into the league with athleticism/skills as good as Wiggins, underwhelmed for several years, and then figured out how to impact the game at a much higher level? Part of the reason I'm skeptical of Wiggins is that he seems like another version of the Jeff Green archetype who shows flashes but doesn't really put it together, but this could just be negative confirmation bias. Are there good counterexamples I'm just blanking on?
   3013. Esmailyn Gonzalez Sr. Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5707733)
I'm just catching up, but I really like Lopez for the Bucks. He provides what they were hoping Maker would become- a combo of three point shooting and shot blocking

How's his flying kick?
   3014. JJ1986 Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5707739)
is there a good example of a player who came into the league with athleticism/skills as good as Wiggins, underwhelmed for several years, and then figured out how to impact the game at a much higher level?
Victor Oladipo, maybe. Although he wasn't as hyped as Wiggins.
   3015. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5707742)
Brook probably only signed with Milwaukee so him and Robin could be roommates again.
   3016. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 10, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5707773)
Oladipo was also quite a bit better (imo) on both ends of the floor than Wiggins has been.
   3017. sardonic Posted: July 10, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5707809)
DerMar DeRozan is a good realistic upside case for Wiggins I think.
   3018. aberg Posted: July 10, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5707813)
is there a good example of a player who came into the league with athleticism/skills as good as Wiggins, underwhelmed for several years, and then figured out how to impact the game at a much higher level?


Here are a few examples of highly drafted guards/wings who took a few years to develop. They all have differences from Wiggins to various degrees, but worth considering:

Demar Derozan
Mike Conley
Luol Deng
Andre Iguodala
Jason Richardson
   3019. Rally Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5707836)
Bradley Beal might fit the criteria too.
   3020. Rally Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5707847)
Going by the bbref metrics, Iggy doesn't seem to fit. He had a .118 WS/48 and positive on/off right off the bat. His rookie numbers in those stats are in line with the rest of his 14 year career. Right off the bat he was a guy who filled up the box score in every stat.

His development went from being a supporting player to more of a high usage scoring role in his third season. Mostly that was due to not having Allen Iverson around to take every shot.

Another weird thing, looking at his career, is that he started off as a decent free throw shooter, even getting to 82% in his third year. By the end of his time in Philly he was down to 62%, and terrible ever since.
   3021. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5707852)
Rudy Gay is another comp.
   3022. GordonShumway Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5707886)
Tracy McGrady
Tyson Chandler
Gerald Wallace
Steve Nash?
   3023. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5707889)
Here are a few examples of highly drafted guards/wings who took a few years to develop. They all have differences from Wiggins to various degrees, but worth considering:

Demar Derozan
Mike Conley
Luol Deng
Andre Iguodala
Jason Richardson

Disagree on Deng and Iggy. They were much better than Wiggins from the beginning. At age 21 Deng was arguably the best player on a really good team. Health permitting, he stayed basically the same from age 19 to age 30. Ditto Iguodala, whose role changed when the Sixers traded Iverson but his overall performance remained remarkably consistent from his rookie year forward.

Chauncey Billups might be the best example of a high pick who looked like a disappointment but then found a new level in his mid 20s. Through his first 4 seasons he was below average by all the advanced stats, with subpar shooting percentages and mediocre secondary skills. Then within a couple years he became the leader of a team that made the ECF 6 straight years, made the Finals a couple times, and won a title -- with Billups named Finals MVP.
   3024. aberg Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5707896)
I included Deng because he improved a lot as a shooter. Agree that he was better than Wiggins earlier. Iguodala's PER grew quite a bit from years 1-2-3, but yes, he's also a pretty different type of player. Billups is a good example.
   3025. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5707927)
Jimmy Butler is another wing who developed pretty late, but he was also such a different player from Wiggins.
   3026. Rally Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5707951)
Look at Butler's WS/48 and on/off ratings. Consistently excellent from day one. Butler was the 30th pick in the draft, not a spot were you can count on getting a rotation player let alone a star.

From that point they had to answer questions like "Is this a fluke?", "Can he handle a bigger role?", "Will he retain his efficiency if pushed into a bigger role?".

One thing we will never know is how Wiggins would have handled a situation where he had to earn his spot in the NBA, or how Butler would have handled things if he were a super hyped 1-1 and given a starting job on day one. Also, Butler as a rookie was the same age as Wiggins was this past season.
   3027. aberg Posted: July 10, 2018 at 07:13 PM (#5708046)
Look at Butler's WS/48 and on/off ratings. Consistently excellent from day one. Butler was the 30th pick in the draft, not a spot were you can count on getting a rotation player let alone a star.


I think most people agree that Butler is one of the 8-15 best players in the NBA. I believe that the chances of Wiggins getting to that level are <1%. I'm more interested in whether Wiggins can get into the 25-35 territory where he is clearly above-average and possibly in consideration for an AS selection in a good year.

It's not that hard to imagine him becoming that type of player. He had a full season of shooting 36% on 3s in 17. He shot 38% on 3s after the ASG last year. He has the length and athletic ability to shoot a very high percentage inside, both on post-ups and drives. His on-ball defense was clearly better last year, both in terms of technique and effort. His handle will never be elite, but he has steadily improved what was once a weakness and his TO rate has gone from 11.7-10.6-9.4-8.8 over his four years. If you convince him to trade his long twos for threes, use more post-ups and cuts to get to the rim, and maintain the positive trend defensively, there's a good player there. It's like a version of Klay Thompson who is good rather than great at 3s and D, but a little better at creating his own shot (maybe like a smaller Rashard Lewis?).

That's a long-winded way of saying that I don't think his development curve is typical. Most guys are trying to learn what they can do successfully at the NBA level. He already has several of those things. His problem is that he also uses a lot of things that are not useful. He just needs to trim the fat and focus on the things he can do well. It SEEMS like that should be more feasible.
   3028. Joe OBrien Posted: July 10, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5708048)
How about Monta Ellis as a Wiggins comp? Wiggins is quite a bit taller, but he doesn't actually play much bigger. Small edge in rebounding and blocks. Big deficit in steals and assists. Similar shooting numbers in both outcome and profile. I'm definitely a Wiggins skeptic. I think Ellis is his realistic upside at this point.
   3029. aberg Posted: July 10, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5708052)
How about Monta Ellis as a Wiggins comp? Wiggins is quite a bit taller, but he doesn't actually play much bigger. Small edge in rebounding and blocks. Big deficit in steals and assists. Similar shooting numbers in both outcome and profile. I'm definitely a Wiggins skeptic. I think Ellis is his realistic upside at this point.


Ellis shot 31% from 3 for his career. Wiggins is at 33% now. If he stays there or regresses, he's screwed.
   3030. JC in DC Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5708161)
His name is Kevin Knox.
   3031. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:06 AM (#5708194)
His name is Kevin Knox.


He looks awesome. So does Wendell Carter Jr. It feels like SL is inching up in competition and it's more important than ever to put in a good showing.
   3032. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 11, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5708236)
If Wiggins becomes the 35th best player in the league, he still has negative value with that contract.
He is unlikely to get that good, despite still being really young. By multiple measures, he was closer to the replacement level than average last year, given his lack of playmaking for others, porous defense, inefficient shooting and blase rebounding.

Find a bigger sucker, he's got to go.
   3033. spivey Posted: July 11, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5708240)
I agree with Der K. Wiggins also regressed terribly last year. We already kind of know his particular skills don't fit well on a team with other stars, especially ones on the perimeter. Last year just showed it. I think the real question is what you'd have to give up to get rid of him. I'm sure that varies wildly based on who you're dealing with. There's also the question of if you become capped out with or without him, you might as well keep him. I'm not sure I agree. The cap continues to rise and I just don't really see a path to good for him. Good wings are hard to find, but wings that suck at team defense, outside shooting, and have the sole skill of being able to create mediocre efficiency shots seem much less hard to find.
   3034. jmurph Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5708256)
Thirded on Wiggins. We're dancing around the fact that he's just bad. Guys get way too much credit for being able to create their own shot when A. they can't shoot and B. they take bad shots.
   3035. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5708259)
So does Wendell Carter Jr. It feels like SL is inching up in competition and it's more important than ever to put in a good showing.

Watching the highlights (I haven't caught a game yet), the comparison to a young Horford really looks dead on. He can stand to put on some muscle (and I'm sure he will), but I've really come around on him. I still wonder what his ceiling is - Horford seems like the best case, so I wouldn't necessarily expect that - but I think he's get a fairly high floor.

Is it me, or are there more stars showing up to watch the games than previous years? Not that a young rich guys needs to be coerced to visit Vegas...
   3036. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:47 AM (#5708267)
That Davis Bertans contract is for 2/14.5 and not the initially reported 4/20. Obviously, that's much better for Bertans. Still a reasonable deal, I think. I like that deal better than the McBuckets one.
   3037. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5708270)
Thirded on Wiggins. We're dancing around the fact that he's just bad. Guys get way too much credit for being able to create their own shot when A. they can't shoot and B. they take bad shots.

A: his shooting has shown an upward trend over his first 4 years.
B: he shot fewer terrible shots this season.

Find a bigger sucker, he's got to go.
i don't have any grand illusions about what wiggins is, or is likely to be, but i, as the embodiment of spirit of all sixers fans, am willing to be that sucker.
@sheridanhoops
Atención España, hoy hay noticias de que posiblemente Pau Gasol será cambiado a los Philadelphia 76ers. Lee esto: getmoresports.com/sheridan-pau-g… @Pau Gasol #Spurs #Sixers @Kawhi Leonard
@sheridanhoops
For my gringo tweeps, that was a Tweet to the folks in Spain telling them there is news out this morning (New England-time) on Pau Gasol possibly getting traded to the Philadelphia #Sixers: getmoresports.com/sheridan-pau-g…
   3038. jmurph Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5708276)
A: his shooting has shown an upward trend over his first 4 years.

It has not.
   3039. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5708277)
I think Philly taking on Wiggins' deal would be disastrous for them.
   3040. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5708286)
If I were a Celtics fan I would desperately want the Sixers to blow their cap space on Andrew Wiggins. DESPERATELY.

edit: It doesn't matter, though. Kawhi is going to be a Sixer. Everything both the Sixers and Spurs have done point to a Kawhi to Philly trade. I think Brett Brown's recent informal "Markelle looks great!" press conference had something to do with whatever they're negotiating with the Spurs.
   3041. JC in DC Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:21 AM (#5708295)
Is Fultz playing in the summer league? I assume not, right? Injury rehab,I guess?

I can see Fultz becoming a poor man's Kevin Knox.
   3042. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5708297)
Is Fultz playing in the summer league? I assume not, right? Injury rehab,I guess?

He's not, but he is in Vegas enjoying himself.
   3043. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5708308)
It has not.

year3PAs/363PA/FGA3P%
11.5.11131%
22.4.14730%
33.4.18436%
44.1.26033


I can see Fultz becoming a poor man's Kevin Knox.
wake me up when knox is the youngest player in NBA history to put up a triple double.
   3044. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5708316)
We all know Sacramento would take Wiggins in a heartbeat, right? If the Wolves just want to dump him (unlikely, presumably most of the thinking that led to the contract still is in place a year later, including Glen Taylor's eye test), it won't be hard.
   3045. JC in DC Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5708321)
Little says "future star" the way a late season, meaningless, triple double does. I can almost remember the days "triple double" meant something!
   3046. Jtsports01 Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5708323)
what is the appropriate package for Kawhi? Fultz, Saric and the 2021 pick?
   3047. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5708327)
Spurs are probably holding out for all that plus Covington.
   3048. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5708333)
I think Philly taking on Wiggins' deal would be disastrous for them.

simmons, saric and embiid are (more or less) known quantities.
robert covington and tj mcconnell are quality role players.
there are some other low-level lottery tickets floating around.

then there's fultz, zhaire smith and wiggins.
fultz: A/A- athlete; only 20 years old; great ballhandling; solid playmaking, defending; can't shoot
smith: A+ athlete; only 19 years old; great defender/rebounder; can't dribble; can't shoot
wiggins: A/A+ athlete; 23 years old; great athlete; volume scorer; tremendous athleticism; willing shooter


when i look at that potential roster, i see a glass half-full. i see nearly unlimited defensive upside; i see very good rebounding; i see some offensive...issues, but wiggins' tendency to shoot every shot actually complements the rest of the roster, where everyone other than embiid is unselfish (either out of necessity or to a fault).

   3049. jmurph Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5708338)
year: 3PAs/36, 3PA/FGA, 3P%
1: 1.5, .111, 31%
2: 2.4, .147, 30%
3: 3.4, .184, 36%
4: 4.1, .260, 33% 

Ha! So he's improved at taking shots, not so much making them.
TS%:
.517
.543
.534
.505

FG%:
.437
.459
.452
.438

3pt%:
.310
.300
.356
.331

I don't see any trends to get excited about in there.
   3050. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5708345)
Watching the highlights (I haven't caught a game yet), the comparison to a young Horford really looks dead on. He can stand to put on some muscle (and I'm sure he will), but I've really come around on him. I still wonder what his ceiling is - Horford seems like the best case, so I wouldn't necessarily expect that - but I think he's get a fairly high floor.


He's very smooth and coordinated at his size despite not being an explosive run and jumper -- a lot like Lauri really. He has better defensive instincts than Lauri however. Not nearly the volume shooter and potential scorer but certainly appears to have some offensive refinement, especially finishing from 4-10 feet. The play he made where he got the ball, took a gather step from the FT line and then exploded into a finger roll was incredibly impressive for a guy that just turned 19 a few months ago. He didn't dunk it like a really explosive guy like Ayton or Griffin would but his touch around the rim allowed him to finish it easily regardless. And having the coordination to do that at 7 feet is impressive.
   3051. spivey Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5708392)
Thirded on Wiggins. We're dancing around the fact that he's just bad. Guys get way too much credit for being able to create their own shot when A. they can't shoot and B. they take bad shots.

I still think this is a valuable skill, but much more in a "You need 2 bench guys who can do this", and I think you can find a number of wings on the scrap heap that can do this, if you're willing to punt defense (which you already are with Wiggins).
   3052. PJ Martinez Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5708403)
A proposal from Cleaning the Glass for tweaking the CBA: allow teams to pay one player more than the max; shorten rookie contracts and eliminate restricted free agency (so teams control drafted players for two years plus a team option on a third year); allow teams to put heavier incentives into contracts.

Note: what Falk and Brenner really think the NBA should do is eliminate the max and eliminate the draft. But this is their more realistic proposal.
   3053. Rally Posted: July 11, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5708492)
what is the appropriate package for Kawhi? Fultz, Saric and the 2021 pick?


Seems too much, unless they can get an extension done as a condition of the deal.
   3054. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 11, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5708724)
So does Wendell Carter Jr.


I hope it keeps up. Bagley is a pogo stick and had some huge games, but I'm not sure that Carter wasn't Duke's best player last year.

   3055. aberg Posted: July 11, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5708741)
Someone mentioned a Wiggins to Sacto framework earlier. I think a reasonable one is something like Temple, Shumpert, and WCS for Wiggins. I'd make that trade for the Wolves.
   3056. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 11, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5708752)
what is the appropriate package for Kawhi? Fultz, Saric and the 2021 pick?

saric, smith, shamet, MIA's 2021 pick are on the table, but i'd aim to keep fultz and covington if i was the sixers.
fultz's compromised value and potential upside makes me think there's more downside in trading him than in keeping him.
with covington, it's more about style and fit. a lineup of simmons / SG / kawhi / covington / embiid would have so much size and athleticism, and they'd be a nightmare for opposing offenses.
   3057. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5708779)
Carter was my favorite player on Duke last year and, I thought, their best prospect. Horford is likely his ceiling, not sure that Carter has that mobility, but a very good player.

Wiggins to SAC would make sense - Minny needs to make some choices lest they get obliterated by the luxury tax in the coming years, this is the easiest way to help them + Sacramento is eternally desperate.
   3058. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5708782)
Houston signed swingman James Ennis. I've liked him more than his stats for awhile, has shown flashes of being a 3'n'd guy (only 33% from deep last year and his defense numbers have fluctuated from season to season) - wonder how he'll look in the Rockets system.

2 years at the minimum, year 2 is a p-opt
   3059. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 12, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5708993)
2979. JJ1986 Posted: July 09, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5707346)
What are the Rockets going to do now? Sign James Ennis?


3058. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: July 11, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5708782)
Houston signed swingman James Ennis.
   3060. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 12, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5709036)
If they were going to approach this through FA, rather than trade, he made the most sense (imo).
   3061. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 12, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5709090)
pre-draft, 2011, BBTF NBA playoffs thread:
Said DraftExpress' Jonathan Givony via Twitter: NBA sources say San Antonio has offered George Hill to Milwaukee (#10), Golden State (#11) and Utah (#12) in exchange for their pick. Examiner
It probably won't happen, but I would like the Lakers to take Goudelock with one of their numerous late 2nd-round picks if he is there.
George Hill is so much better than the 10-12 pick.
In an absolute sense, yes, but if you already have Parker and you're trying to win next year and maybe the year after, it's conceivable that you might want to reallocate your value somewhere else. SA must be in love with someone in that range.
Odom and Artest for Iguodala? Unless it is a prelude to other stuff, no thanks.
Odom's numbers will go down and turnovers up without Kobe screaming at him all game long. He's a space cadet and it will only get worse if he's not on a team competing for a championship. He's got Khloe and his reality show to worry about, after all.
According to Eric Pincus at HoopsWorld, Kobe is a big AI2 fan, and they have the same agent.

Kobe's record as a GM advisor, is, uhh, spotty, but I would guess he really wants Buss to get Iguodala.
Before anything happens, I'd like to put it out there that my dream scenario for tonight* involves the Knicks buying/somehow acquiring a late 1st and early 2nd rounder and walking away with Mirotic, Selby and one of Vucecic/Shumpert/Faried *crosses fingers*
I would deal Bynum, were I running the Lakers, because he's such a rare commodity and because he's damaged goods: it just seems like the perfect combo where somebody is likely to fantasize about his future health and overpay significantly...
Oden is a restricted free agent; it's not clear whether or not Portland is going to extend him a qualifying offer, which would have to be $8 million.
He's still got a good sense of humor. Earlier in the week, TMZ released a video where they thought he was Lebron and were pestering him. After he finally got them to believe he wasn't Lebron, they asked, "Do you play basketball?" Oden's response? "I tried, but I'm not good at it."
Anyone want to make guesses at how the lottery actually turns out? So many mock drafts around, it might be fun to compare what we anticipate.

i'll play your game:

1. irving
2. williams
3. kanter
4. leonard
If Kahn sticks to his BPA strategy he employed in 2009, then he'll take Williams. I just don't see how Williams and Love fit together. Granted, they have diverse offensive games but both are PFs without much in the way of versatility to play either the 5 or 3, not on a good team with a good defense anyway.
I wonder what the draft would have looked like if Barnes, Sullinger, Perry Jones, Terence Jones and John Henson decided to enter. Irving I think would still go no.1, but Barnes at 2, possibly Perry Jones at 3, Sullinger at 4, Washington gets Kanter, maybe Terence Jones to Sacramento if no trade.
In one of the most pointless rumors I ever seen, Denver and Portland are apparently discussing a trade involving Andre Miller, Felton and the exchange of the no.21 and no.22 picks. I guess I could see why Portland would do it but why Denver? This would be like trading Jarron Collins for Jason Collins.
so, charlotte has 7 and 9 now. hey! that works out pretty well. now you can pen both singler and fredette in the top 10. the only question is who gets preference.
At first glance, I like it for Charlotte and probably for Milwaukee - Sacramento is drunk
2) players i'd be happy to move iguodala for: derrick williams, enes kanter, james harden, andrew bynum, lamar odom, kevin martin, monta ellis, nene hilario, anderson varejao (assuming there's something of value coming along with him).
biyombo and leonard could have had that team in the top 5 in D-rating for the next decade if they play to their potential
at this point, i'm really hoping we find a way to pull kawhi leonard. i know we already have turner and young and iguodala (for now, and probably for a while still, considering the complete lack of testicles current management has), but i think the guy's gonna be a great defender, and iguodala's eventually gonna be gone, so they might as well make it happen.
I'm glad Klay Thompson is off the board because I don't want the Knicks wasting a pick on him.
So Monta gets traded eventually, and Thompson/Curry are the backcourt of the future in Golden State?
I didn't want the Warriors wasting a pick on Klay Thompson
Burks!!! This draft is about as good as I could realistically possible for the Jazz.
All of you keep your grubby hands off my Omer!
I feel like Kahn is going to keep trading down until he ends up with the entire 2nd round in the 2014 draft.
Traded the 20 for the 23 (net future first rounder)

Traded 23 for 28 (net 43rd pick)

Traded 28 for 31 (net future second rounder)

Ok, so we traded down 11 spots, got out of the guaranteed contract range, and added a first and 2 seconds. Meh.
Silver seems alot more comfortable in his skin.
Stern and Silver are awesome at this. Stern is the greatest heel in the history of televised drafts and Silver the greatest face. This is like classic Flair/Hogan.
Agree. Stern's a marketing genius second only to McMahon. So, NY gonna do anything else tonight?
I think it's mostly the crowd. The Silver/face gimmick is so great.
   3062. jmurph Posted: July 12, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5709102)
I can't believe it was only 7 years ago that Odom and Bynum and Monta were players worth discussing.
   3063. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 12, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5709198)
Well this is fun:

Duke product Wendell Carter Jr. was the last of the five big men taken in the first seven picks of this year's NBA draft. So far during the NBA summer league in Las Vegas, however, Carter perhaps has been the best of the group. His game looks to translate well to the modern NBA.

Nearly the full complement of Carter's skills was on display Wednesday during the Chicago Bulls' 95-83 win over the Dallas Mavericks in the opening round of summer tournament play. Carter finished with 19 points on 9-of-11 shooting, pulling down nine rebounds and handing out two assists as the Bulls outscored Dallas by 22 points in his 30 minutes of action.


More from Pelton at the link. Carter has been massively impressive, maybe it's time to start giving GarPax the benefit of the doubt on these #7 picks.
   3064. Quaker Posted: July 12, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5709224)
Kawhi to the Raptors now even money on OddsShark.
   3065. maccoach57 Posted: July 12, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5709231)
Kawhi to the Raptors now even money on OddsShark.


If the Lakers can't get him, Toronto is where I would personally prefer to see him go among the teams that appear to be in it.
   3066. aberg Posted: July 12, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5709232)
Is the presumption that Toronto would send out Lowry or Derozan at the core of the return?
   3067. maccoach57 Posted: July 12, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5709236)
3066--Don't know. But I would think so. Obviously, getting Leonard out of the conference and/or maybe helping Brett Brown would be more immediately palatable to Popovich and Buford than putting Leonard in a Lakers uniform alongside LeBron James would be.
   3068. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 12, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5709239)
Kawhi to the Raptors now even money on [redacted].
it's a publicity stunt. that site did the same thing a week ago with the sixers.
Is the presumption that Toronto would send out Lowry or Derozan at the core of the return?
i think the presumption is that they'll take back any unwanted contract SAS has (gasol, mills, gay, green), while sending back derozan to keep the spurs in playoff contention, and a handful of young players (anunoby, poeltl, siakam, wright) and/or picks to round out a package that would give SAS everything short of cap space and a high lottery pick.
   3069. JC in DC Posted: July 12, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5709252)
[3063] Mitchell Robinson is averaging more bpg than any of them and more rpg than all but one of them, and shooting a higher percentage than all of them.
   3070. Quaker Posted: July 12, 2018 at 08:06 PM (#5709306)
Derozan is the one mentioned in every rumor. He also blanked his IG yesterday, but apparently he does that semi-regularly so we shouldn't read too much into that by itself. Potentially being stuck w/DD's contract for three years really worries me. I've heard several people--Simmons, Haralabob, etc--reference Lowry's deal as untradeable, which I don't agree with. I'd be happy if the return were Lowry/OG or Siakam/1st rounder in 2020 for Kawhi/Mills. Pelton said the negative expected value on Mills' contract was equivalent to the 12th pick in the draft by itself.

   3071. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 12, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5709321)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania

Sources: The Chicago Bulls have rescinded the qualifying offer on guard David Nwaba, making him an unrestricted free agent.


Why. WTH.
   3072. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 12, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5709324)
The Bulls are so ####### stupid.
   3073. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 12, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5709341)
Ellington stays in MIA for 6.2m
   3074. JC in DC Posted: July 12, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5709356)
Robinson with 17 points on 8-for-10 shooting, 12 rebounds (7 offensive), 6 blocks & 3 steals.
   3075. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 12, 2018 at 10:58 PM (#5709377)
3070: citation on the pelton mills comment? I see the contract as bad but not THAT bad

Saw a suggestion that the Bulls moved grant and relinquished nwaba as prep for a big move
   3076. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 12, 2018 at 11:07 PM (#5709378)
Saw a suggestion that the Bulls moved grant and relinquished nwaba as prep for a big move
still available:
the beas
babbitt
caboclo
jamal crawford
ty lawson
shabazz
other shabazz
jah
perk
speights
swaggyp
jet

   3077. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 12, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5709380)
Bulls clearing space for Luol Deng. Mark my words.
   3078. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 12, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5709384)
Not available:

Free agent guard Isaiah Thomas has agreed to a one-year deal with the Denver Nuggets, league sources tell ESPN. Thomas will reunite with Michael Malone, who coached him with the Kings.


Woj. Says it's vet minimum.
   3079. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 12, 2018 at 11:52 PM (#5709385)
The minimum, huh?
Decent risk for the price and they need a backup point. He was really good 2 years ago ... and really bad last year.

I know I'm not saying anything we don't all know but ... he was 5th in MVP voting a year ago... and probably the worst player in the league last season. He also didn't get that much better as the season went on...
   3080. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 13, 2018 at 12:13 AM (#5709389)
Woj: Denver has agreed to send Kenneth Faried, Darrell Arthur, a 2019 protected first-round pick and a future second round pick to Nets for Isaiah Whitehead, league sources tell ESPN. Salary dump for Denver.

And Jeremy Lin dealt to the hawks
   3081. stevegamer Posted: July 13, 2018 at 12:46 AM (#5709392)
Woj: Denver has agreed to send Kenneth Faried, Darrell Arthur, a 2019 protected first-round pick and a future second round pick to Nets for Isaiah Whitehead, league sources tell ESPN. Salary dump for Denver.

And Jeremy Lin dealt to the hawks


Nice move by the Nets. Get some talent for cap room, plus picks.

Weird that the Nuggets needed to move that much cap for a minimum contract. The Thomas signing is a good gamble, but man they are punting defense.
   3082. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 13, 2018 at 12:51 AM (#5709393)
Woj: Denver has agreed to send Kenneth Faried, Darrell Arthur, a 2019 protected first-round pick and a future second round pick to Nets for Isaiah Whitehead, league sources tell ESPN. Salary dump for Denver.

DEN gave BRK a 1 (top 12 protected) and a future 2 to save 20MM.
they gave PHI one future 2 and swap rights for another future 2 to save 50MM.


PHI got hosed on that one.
   3083. spivey Posted: July 13, 2018 at 08:17 AM (#5709409)
I look forward to Isaiah Thomas calling out Jokic on the 4th day of practice about if he's really hurt.
   3084. JJ1986 Posted: July 13, 2018 at 09:08 AM (#5709415)
DEN gave BRK a 1 (top 12 protected) and a future 2 to save 20MM.
they gave PHI one future 2 and swap rights for another future 2 to save 50MM.
No.
   3085. jmurph Posted: July 13, 2018 at 09:37 AM (#5709420)
I guess I'm skeptical it will happen, but I hope Isaiah can get back close to fully healthy at this point, as Denver should be delightful to watch on offense this year. Despite missing the playoffs they were in that big jumble of teams 3-9 and were only 3 back of third.

But yeah, that defense. That will be something.
   3086. jmurph Posted: July 13, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5709423)
I don't really understand the Lin deal for the Hawks. They swapped 2nd round picks and there's a 2nd round pick swap built in, so they didn't get a lot for taking on his salary. Maybe they're planning to actually keep him if/once they can move Schroder?
   3087. jmurph Posted: July 13, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5709424)
Derozan is the one mentioned in every rumor.

This maybe goes without saying given my stance on DeRozan, but I think I'd take even a bad Lakers deal over something centered around him. Maybe if they're dumping all their bad salaries (and for being the Spurs they really do have a lot of bad salaries) I could see it, but that's 3 more years of huge money for a useful but limited guy.
   3088. PJ Martinez Posted: July 13, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5709425)
My thinking (however flawed): You don’t withdraw a $1.7M QO to a player you like (Nwaba) unless you need that specific cap room for something planned. Doing it takes Bulls to $20M. Who’s dumping expiring $20M? Nobody. But Melo makes $28M and Felicio $8M...
   3089. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 13, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5709426)
[3088] Jabari Parker offer sheet is the leading contender I'd think, no? $20M for Jabari is a lot but maybe that's what they need to do to get the cap-hell Bucks who can't use the money for anything else to not match (as per the early part of this page).
   3090. jmurph Posted: July 13, 2018 at 10:27 AM (#5709432)
[3088] Jabari Parker offer sheet is the leading contender I'd think, no? $20M for Jabari is a lot but maybe that's what they need to do to get the cap-hell Bucks who can't use the money for anything else to not match (as per the early part of this page).

That's an interesting theory. I mean they're paying $20ish million a year to LaVine for the next four years, it doesn't really make sense to try to completely bottom out.
   3091. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 13, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5709438)
Maybe they're planning to actually keep him if/once they can move Schroder?

That seems to be the plan. Makes sense not to throw Trae Young to the wolves immediately. Let's just hope the Hawks are smarter with Young than Keith Smart was with Curry (no pun intended).
   3092. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 13, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5709442)
DEN gave BRK a 1 (top 12 protected) and a future 2 to save 20MM.
they gave PHI one future 2 and swap rights for another future 2 to save 50MM.


PHI got hosed on that one.


Why are you including the luxury tax amount in the PHI trade but not the BKN one?
   3093. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5709445)
My thinking (however flawed): You don’t withdraw a $1.7M QO to a player you like (Nwaba) unless you need that specific cap room for something planned. Doing it takes Bulls to $20M. Who’s dumping expiring $20M? Nobody. But Melo makes $28M and Felicio $8M...

I don't see a whole lot from OKC pickwise that seems like it'll really help the Bulls here for as much as they'd be helping OKC. Getting out of Felicio's contract is nice (and gives them an extra $8mil of space next offseason), so perhaps Melo's buyout will be pretty favorable. But Nwaba's QO was very small, and even if he accepted it the Bulls could surely give him away for nothing if they had to. So unless a trade is happening *today*, letting the QO go was flatout stupid (today is the deadline to withdraw a QO).

I don't think a Parker offer sheet makes sense, since I don't see how he fits on the Bulls.
   3094. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5709446)
Pelton gave BKN an A, DEN a B, and ATL a D- for last night's swap. That feels about right (I'd nudge Atlanta up to a D myself, rather than D-, but not for value reasons. And I like Lin).
Denver didn't do this deal to sign Thomas (a minimum wage player), they did it to escape the tax.
   3095. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5709449)
Sure, but it makes even less sense than a LaVine one, especially after the LaVine one was matched. I'm also sure the Bulls were a bit pot committed with him (in their minds) after the Butler trade. They did promote him quite a bit last year.
   3096. Just TFTIO Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5709450)
I do not understand wtf Chicago or Atlanta are doing.
   3097. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5709453)
I don't think a Parker offer sheet makes sense, since I don't see how he fits on the Bulls.

yeah, I don't see why the Bulls wouldn't just build around Carter and Lauri. I also don't see why anyone would pay Jabari $20 million, since there doesn't seem to be another offer close to that. If there was, Jabari would've signed it already.

Of course, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean the Bulls won't do it.
   3098. JJ1986 Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:27 AM (#5709456)
Is anyone going to trade for Schroder? His contract is three years, so you can't even really exchange him for bad money. And young teams probably don't want him because he's reportedly not good in the locker room. Maybe a stuck-in-the-middle team like the Pistons could find some use for him.
   3099. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5709457)
It's very frustrating being an Atlanta fan.
---
Schroder also has a felony charge hanging over his head. My understanding is that the Hawks are pretty concerned about that.
He seems like a Reggie Jackson type to me, someone could use that.
   3100. Rally Posted: July 13, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5709458)
He seems like a Reggie Jackson type to me, someone could use that.


The problem with Reggie Jackson types is that they get off to hot starts for the first 2 weeks or so but are not so productive in the playoffs. Mr. October is better suited for a sport with a different schedule.
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