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Wednesday, May 30, 2018

OT - 2018 NBA Summer Potpourri (finals, draft, free agency, Colangelo dragging)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  complaints about mayonnaise.


EDIT: image is shrunken. Mouse over to show full size. -vi

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:56 AM | 3814 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   3201. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 15, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5710315)
Who is Gibson?


Henson. For the life of me I cannot stop thinking his name is John Gibson, I’ve done it like 8 times just in the BBTF NBA threads, I know better, but for whatever moronic reason, the word “Henson” just slides over and off my brain like grease.
   3202. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 15, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5710329)
[lebron] and I had never lived outside Ohio before, and it was completely different
...he talked about not being happy down there the first year. I was miserable.


Oh man I'm dying. Like I don't begrudge Windhorst anything, he has the reporter's "dog with a bone" mentality, (and that bone is singularly Lebron James), and it's been that way since both were just starting their careers -- so I respect that.

But on the other hand if you were going to write a skit about a incel, overweight, neckbeard with an unhealthy crush on a super star athlete -- he'd be the quintessential casting for that role. It's just funny to me. I guess it's rather puerile humor.

It is a Simmons operation, so it has that people-sitting-around-bullshitting vibe. But I think there is a place for that as long as it is relatively intelligent bullshitting (which is a lot of what we do here, IMO). YMMV.


What do people think of Mark Titus? I cannot ####### stand the guy. In print or on his podcast. His podcast had Duncan Robinson on (with some amazing tea for any UM hoops fans, including that when JJJ and MSU would play UM, with UM beating them easily both times, the Michigan team would joke between themselves about how he'd have been a All-American at UM -- it's probably true...) and I had to fast forward through all of it that didn't have Duncan. It was just so out of touch. I really don't care about his ####### hotel room. He reminds me in tone of Paul Shirley, another "smart" jock that just came across as a condescending blowhard imo.
   3203. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 15, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5710341)
Titus is awful. Though it's kind of funny that there's a successful (?) talking head out there whose whole schtick started out as trolling Evan Turner, given how ET's career has turned out. I suppose Turner has made many, many more millions of dollars than I have, so I should shut up, but still.
   3204. sardonic Posted: July 15, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5710346)
Not gonna lie, I hate read the #### out of that Windhorst piece.
   3205. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: July 15, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5710350)
I like Windhorst because I ignore any basketball analysis he attempts to do/is forced to do and see him for what he is:

he has a real and unique connection to lebron/lebron's people, but they don't use him as a mouthpiece in the way that boras uses hayman or agents/teams use woj.

Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but I find the comments about his physical appearance as well as the "incel" stuff to be a bit much.

It is a Simmons operation, so it has that people-sitting-around-bullshitting vibe. But I think there is a place for that as long as it is relatively intelligent bullshitting (which is a lot of what we do here, IMO). YMMV.

That's where it misses the mark for me. Perhaps Tjarks fits this bill in certain areas, but they have far too many people who I love in other contexts (Chris Ryan, Concepcion, Shea Serrano, etc.) being asked to give actual commentary/analysis. They also have KOC and I think that guy IS what you sometimes feel Lowe is as far as being someone whose Boston pride shows through from time to time.
   3206. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 15, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5710352)
Titus is awful. Though it's kind of funny that there's a successful (?) talking head out there whose whole schtick started out as trolling Evan Turner, given how ET's career has turned out. I suppose Turner has made many, many more millions of dollars than I have, so I should shut up, but still.

i'll always love titus for that.
Since I take pride in getting under people’s skin, Evan presented a prime opportunity for me to have a little fun. Unfortunately, he took my playful jabs personally and would retort with the kind of insults that suggest that maybe he was taking the verbal debate a little too far. Basically, my comments prompted an “Oh no he di-unt!” response from onlookers whereas Evan’s comments prompted an “Umm…Evan…you can’t say things like that to people and still be accepted by society” response from onlookers
I portray Evan as an elaborate adversary of mine, when really the only reason we ever butted heads is because he was maybe a little too weak-minded and I was maybe a little too antagonistic
The Villain was an insecure, socially feebleminded, possibly bipolar, and often callous perfectionist who had all the talent in the world, who lacked self-confidence and the ability to trust in anybody around him, who was actually one of the nicest guys you’ll ever meet when he wanted to be, and who would frequently walk around our locker room with his d*** flopped over the waistband of his pants. That really is the best description I can possibly give.
   3207. sardonic Posted: July 15, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5710356)
Also, I lost track of this thread a bit, but I don't think Zach Lowe is even a Boston fan. I only followed him from Grantland onward, but he seems to be Knicks fan currently. He certainly lives in New York and talks about the Knicks the most in that context. He seems a bigger fan of Croatian water polo than the Celtics from what I can tell. FWIW, Wikipedia says he grew up in Greewich, CT, which is much closer to NY than it is Boston.

I guess now from his Wiki page it says he got his break writing for Celtics Hub, so him as Boston fan isn't crazy.

I like Windhorst because I ignore any basketball analysis he attempts to do/is forced to do and see him for what he is:


He just seems like such a dick on Lowe Post podcasts that I skip the ones he's on. He's very sensitive, quick to take offense and very self important. I didn't have much of an opinion of him before that.
   3208. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: July 15, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5710363)
He just seems like such a dick on Lowe Post podcasts that I skip the ones he's on. He's very sensitive, quick to take offense and very self important. I didn't have much of an opinion of him before that.

I'll agree with that. He tends to take himself far too seriously. I prefer his podcast appearances with non-Lowe guys (for example the other LeBron beat guys or the True Hoop crew before they split up) because they give him a lot of good natured #### for it. I think that's just who he is.

EDIT: Lowe also grew up a Celtic fan and got his start on Celtic blogs. I don't find that it colors his analysis, in my experience. I do try to pay special attention when he mentions Toronto or things that impact Toronto because his level of sourcing with that organization is far above the norm and those are the areas where I think certain biases might show through.
   3209. JC in DC Posted: July 15, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5710366)
A lot of the complaints about Windhorst seem fueled by jealousy. Guy got a little lucky and pounced. Good for him.
   3210. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 15, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5710367)
He just seems like such a dick on Lowe Post podcasts that I skip the ones he's on. He's very sensitive, quick to take offense and very self important. I didn't have much of an opinion of him before that.

Look, the King is entitled to a pet hagiographer, that's fine. But he's useless on the Lowe podcast, which is the only place that I encounter him, and that puts him on my enemies list.
   3211. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 15, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5710369)
Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but I find the comments about his physical appearance as well as the "incel" stuff to be a bit much.
Yeah, this #### is out of bounds.
   3212. maccoach57 Posted: July 15, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5710380)
I have made a couple of fat jokes about Windhorst. If it offends people, I will stop. Incel is pretty nasty, but nasty net memes are de rigeur now, of course.
   3213. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: July 15, 2018 at 09:16 PM (#5710386)
[3212] I'm fine with some fat jokes, just felt like it turned into piling on at some point. Can't pinpoint when.

On the basketball front...I thought LeBron looked really good in the Lakers colors today. That era color scheme is teh best.
   3214. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 15, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5710391)
[3212] I'm fine with some fat jokes, just felt like it turned into piling on at some point. Can't pinpoint when.

the reason it feels like piling on is because on the one hand, everyone thinks windhorst is pretty useless at his job, and on the other hand, some people don't realize that fart people are as capable as thin people when it comes to slathering their bodies in baby oil and pleasuring their sexual partners.

and since analingus is big among NBA players these days, just try to imagine what windhorst would do to you if he goes 12+ hours without a meal.
   3215. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 15, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5710398)
oh, and just to say a few words about the "incel" thing:

many ugly people have lots of sex; many fat people have tons of sex; many sexually desirable people go 4 (or even 6) weeks between sexual encounters.

the "incel" community is not about that. it is primarily a neonazi cult that targets lonely and/or depressed people through the internet, and is used to radicalize or recruit for other neonazi cults. it's poison.
   3216. maccoach57 Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:43 AM (#5710410)
The thread has taken an exciting turn...
   3217. stevegamer Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:13 AM (#5710413)
I had no idea what the heck "incel" even was before this thread.
   3218. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:51 AM (#5710414)
The thread has taken an exciting turn...
In more than one way: I do some traveling, and those are the days that the SF burritos come up?

As a Mission resident for a few years now (22nd and Harrison), I've gotten really fond of El Metate (good mole burrito, killer salsa bar, a mix of flour and corn chips if you eat in), with El Farolito and La Espiga De Oro tied for second. I never quite can be bothered with La Taqueria's lines, though, since there are so many good options a closer walk away.
   3219. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:45 AM (#5710417)
I had no idea what the heck "incel" even was before this thread.

I didn't know what it was, until the guy who killed 10 people up in Toronto (there is a Lowe joke in there somewhere that I am not going to make in this context) pushed it into the news.
   3220. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2018 at 06:28 AM (#5710420)
Yeah, let's pivot this back towards Mitchell Robinson.
   3221. sardonic Posted: July 16, 2018 at 08:34 AM (#5710439)
I'm pleasantly surprised to find so many with SF ties here. I love the neighborhood around 22nd and Harrison, I actually worked at 20th and Harrison a few years ago, back with the Heath Ceramics still had a Blue Bottle in it instead of the Tartine Manufactury. And for the record, I'm a Cancun guy all the way, though now that I'm on the East Coast I'd take any Mission burrito any day of the week. Also, for those in the FiDi, there's a solid taco truck at Pacific and Sansome that I used to hit after my work moved around there.

This is probably the quietest part of the basketball calendar now that summer league is over. Should we start a 2018-19 BTF Rank?
   3222. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5710523)
Yeah, like sardonic, now that I'm in Toronto, I take any Mission-type burrito I can find. Toronto, for a multicultural food hub of a town, has a distressingly bad Mexican food selection.
   3223. aberg Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5710561)
FWIW, I have a close friend who knew Windhorst quite well early in their careers and the things he has told me about Windhorst have made me not feel bad about any of the insults I have seen or said about him.
   3224. aberg Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5710562)
This is probably the quietest part of the basketball calendar now that summer league is over. Should we start a 2018-19 BTF Rank?


Someone mentioned updating our all-time top 50 this summer. I wouldn't be against that.
   3225. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5710568)
Someone mentioned updating our all-time top 50 this summer. I wouldn't be against that.

Absolutely no one should feel inclined to cater to my preferences but I'd probably be more likely to participate in the thing we did last year, the top 30 (or 50 or whatever) for next season. I just feel like I'm basically copying/pasting from Basketball Reference doing the all time lists.

But I'm good either way, it's something to fill the dreadful non-NBA months of the calendar.
   3226. . . . . . . Posted: July 16, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5710576)
I've never loved Mission-style burritos, either in their native city or elsewhere. Though obviously they're the most important food to come out of SF; you get a burrito in Seoul or London and it's likely Mission-style.
   3227. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5710611)
The thread has taken an exciting turn...
yeah, sorry about that.

one more

bitcoin has been fraudulently inflated for years, primarily benefiting the early adopters who tended to be people locked out of traditional banking systems: hackers, drugdealers, nazis, pedophiles.

also, the underlying infrastructure of bitcoin is an ecological disaster that's almost singlehandedly zeroing out worldwide reductions in carbon emissions.


however, like the newton, bitcoin was just 10-20 years ahead of its time. at some point in the near future, a company like facebook or exxon or lehman brothers will strip the anarcho-capitalist paranoia out of its foundation, and it will challenge, and possible overtake, the entire worldwide financial system.
   3228. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5710612)
No, the "blockchain" is a clever idea with a terrible implementation that solves no problems anybody actually has. It's going to net out a zero, save for consuming bucketloads of cheap Chinese hydropower.
   3229. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5710617)
Yeah, I'm also in the camp that sees money as already being a sufficiently powerful/useable digital abstraction for wealth/power, only instead of the sneakily disastrous "proof of work" it just uses societal consensus (which bitcoin also relies on at any point of transaction).
   3230. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5710618)
I'm also also in the camp that prefers a top [multiple of ten] for expected performance next season to another all-time list.
   3231. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5710621)
How many guys have meaningfully changed their position on an all-time top 50 list in the last two years? It basically just boils down to arguing about LeBron, right? Well, LeBron and Durant and Curry, maybe. But mostly LeBron.
   3232. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5710624)
I mean a tangent is a tangent but I'm going to be a strong no vote on ####### cryptocurrency talk in the NBA thread.
   3233. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5710628)
I'm just amused that the crytocurrency talk followed swiftly on the heels of the Mission burrito conversation. Is there nothing Silicon Valley can't besmirch!?
   3234. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 16, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5710635)
I'm just amused that the crytocurrency talk followed swiftly on the heels of the Mission burrito conversation. Is there nothing Silicon Valley can't besmirch!?

This is a fair point.
   3235. JC in DC Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5710672)
This is turning into the Lounge. Resist people. I just watched a Kevin Knox highlight video. I can post the link if anyone wants it.

Any thoughts on the impending rule "one and done" rule change?
   3236. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:30 PM (#5710682)
I had no idea what the heck "incel" even was before this thread.


Involuntarily celibate, right? Well Windhorst just had a kid, so....

Bill Simmons had Chuck Klosterman on his podcast last week, and they covered some NBA stuff. There was one interesting angle that I haven't really thought about before: Klosterman has elevated LeBron to #1 all-time but they both agreed that the distance between MJ and whoever the 2nd-best player at the time was was (Olajuwon or the Admiral or Mailman, probably) was greater than the distance between LeBron and Durant.

   3237. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5710691)
Any thoughts on the impending rule "one and done" rule change?


How impending is impending? they just announced that it won't happen before 2022.

I'll be glad when it's killed, even though Duke won its last title on the backs of three freshmen. It's exhausting for a 40 y.o. man (me) to keep up with virtually entire new lineups every year. Although we got four years of Grayson Allen, so that's a win I guess?

I would like to see some version of, go pro out of HS or to college for a minimum of two years. Seems like the D-league has become enough of a legitimate minor league (more games, and better all-around talent) that this would be viable.
   3238. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5710695)
My feelings about one and done, whatever they are, are dwarfed by my loathing for the NCAA. I think the NBA needs to separate itself from the NCAA, not just as a matter of preserving their own development strategies, but as moral imperative.
   3239. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5710701)
Do you all think one-and-done just ends with no other major changes? Like teams are going to go back to drafting high schoolers with the same rookie scale, restricted free agency after four years, etc?

Or do you think it'll get more convoluted than that? Like 18 year olds will have to spend a year in the G-League? Or their contracts are structured differently? I guess typing it out makes me think it will just be exactly how it is now except you can go pro again after high school, but I'm not certain.
   3240. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5710704)
I would like to see each NBA team have a D league affiliate, and for it to be pretty painless to bring people up and send them down during the course of the season. I don't think it's necessary to make D league service mandatory; some 18 yr olds will be ready to play, others ... less so. But let the Kings be the Kings.
   3241. aberg Posted: July 16, 2018 at 03:56 PM (#5710705)
Any thoughts on the impending rule "one and done" rule change?


Is the plan to go back to straight out of HS? I'd prefer if guys were able to go to college if they went undrafted. Two-way contracts help somewhat for the guys who are talented but not ready to play in the NBA. The G League is more of a developmental league than the NBA had when one-and-done was instituted, so that's a positive.

I would also be ok with the 2-or-none arrangement. My biggest pet peeve with one-and-done as a fan is that it kills any continuity with CBB and seems to make the top teams like touring all-star teams. Two years would allow for working together in the summer between the two seasons, which I believe would make a large difference.
   3242. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5710713)
I think the 2 or none arrangement is pointless. I agree with TFTIO that the NBA should just completely ignore the NCAA and do whatever they want. They're not forcing kids to play in the NCAA, but until the G-League is more viable or more players go pro outside the US, that's essentially what they're doing with the current rule and a new two or none one.
   3243. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:06 PM (#5710715)
I'd prefer if guys were able to go to college if they went undrafted....I would also be ok with the 2-or-none arrangement
Agreed on both points, although I would prefer just removing all restrictions to joining the NBA. The college eligibility issue, of course, is entirely on the NCAA, and is the rule that bothers me the most. It's a shame that the Brandon Jennings route didn't become more popular: I really enjoyed watching Yabusele's year in China* after the Celtics drafted-and-stashed him, and unlike the NCAA, I prefer seeing professional athletes get paid.

* I saw some quotes in the wake of summer league about how Yabusele had to spend the entirety of last year breaking bad defensive habits learned in the CBA and learning to box out; I hope he gets there, because he's got some real promise and is a very fun binkie to root for. Startlingly agile at 260 pounds, with lots of "great feel for the game"-type flashes and a bit of a three point shot. Given that all of his minutes would come at the 4 or 5, none of that matters very much if he can't play a big role in the team defense, though.
   3244. smileyy Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5710721)
I just feel like I'm basically copying/pasting from Basketball Reference doing the all time lists.


As much as I like the idea, that's pretty true for me outside of the top 20
   3245. aberg Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:16 PM (#5710723)
more players go pro outside the US


It's a shame that the Brandon Jennings route didn't become more popular


I believe that we're at or near a saturation point for US players playing abroad. Most foreign leagues have a cap on how many players from outside the home country can be on a roster. When players were looking for jobs during the lockout, it became clear pretty quickly that "I'll go play overseas" is a lot easier to say than to do. You also mentioned the G League, which I think is a more viable alternate route.
   3246. Tin Angel Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5710725)
They're not forcing kids to play in the NCAA, but until the G-League is more viable or more players go pro outside the US, that's essentially what they're doing with the current rule and a new two or none one.


Why no mention of the Big Baller league?
   3247. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5710730)
Good point. All high school players should be required to play 2 seasons in the Big Baller league first, and then at least 2 years in the Big 3 afterwards.
   3248. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5710733)
Good point. All high school players should be required to play 2 seasons in the Big Baller league first, and then at least 2 years in the Big 3 afterwards.

This makes NO sense. When will they play in Lithuania?
   3249. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5710737)
I would like to see each NBA team have a D league affiliate, and for it to be pretty painless to bring people up and send them down during the course of the season. I don't think it's necessary to make D league service mandatory; some 18 yr olds will be ready to play, others ... less so.

This just seems like the obvious and easily available solution. I'd combine it with expanding the draft by a round in a perfect world, but that part isn't necessary.
   3250. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5710740)
This makes NO sense. When will they play in Lithuania?

Junior year of high school, duh.
   3251. jmurph Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5710743)
Ooh that's a good response, well done.
   3252. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 16, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5710745)
My feelings about one and done, whatever they are, are dwarfed by my loathing for the NCAA. I think the NBA needs to separate itself from the NCAA, not just as a matter of preserving their own development strategies, but as moral imperative.
this is mostly speculation, but:
i don't think adam silver cares about the NCAA, but he wants to bury AAU. if the NBA is getting rid of "1 and done" by 2022, it will be accompanied by a push to build a competitive summer league to evaluate and instruct high school aged prospects.
Do you all think one-and-done just ends with no other major changes? Like teams are going to go back to drafting high schoolers with the same rookie scale, restricted free agency after four years, etc?
that seems likely, but it's still a while away.

the system i'd like to see is similar to what the NHL uses. all players would be automatically eligible at 18 years old instead of having to opt in. because of that change, players would be able to stay in college after being drafted. teams would retain their rights until they graduate (but not in perpetuity, as is currently the case for euros, which should also be changed).
   3253. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 16, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5710786)
Apologies for the burrito hijack. As a lurker with fond memories of basketball in the 80s, 90s and 00s but not much to contribute, I always enjoy the discussions about how players from this era would fare, say, in the 'no layups' NBA. Could maybe identify a number of NBA "styles" and then propose hypothetical top teams for each era/style? (but with players drawn from *all* eras)
   3254. smileyy Posted: July 16, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5710799)
[3253] I'm assuming that there are illegal defense rules and that hand-checking is permitted?
   3255. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 16, 2018 at 06:22 PM (#5710803)
I'm assuming that there are illegal defense rules and that hand-checking is permitted?

If I understand correctly, that would be the case for most of the historical "styles", but not the current one; along with league-wide playing trends, that sort of rule (other examples would be things like the three-point line's existence/distance) that distinguishes on "style" of league from another.
   3256. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 16, 2018 at 06:43 PM (#5710814)
Yep! That's the idea. It's mostly borne out of the NBA I grew up with vs today, IOW illegal defense. Not sure if there are enough other 'styles' to make it doable, but arguing about that part could take us through to August, anyway.
   3257. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 16, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5710835)
Stein:

The Philadelphia 76ers have been rebuffed in their attempt to hire away Houston's Daryl Morey to take over as their new general manager, @NYTSports has learned
   3258. aberg Posted: July 16, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5710858)
The Philadelphia 76ers have been rebuffed in their attempt to hire away Houston's Daryl Morey to take over as their new general manager, @NYTSports has learned


I wonder if they tried offering Jerryd Bayless as compensation.
   3259. JJ1986 Posted: July 16, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5710874)
Big news: The Spurs have signed Dante Cunningham.
   3260. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: July 16, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5710897)
I get the concerns people have about trying to re-rank our All-Time Top 50 (also, this was done like 5 years ago, not 2 so I would argue that a lot has changed). However...I have to say that the last time we did it, I got really into it and watched a bunch of old footage and ended up realizing "Holy ####, Jerry West was ####### incredible!" Down for whatever people want to do to kill the next month and a half though.
   3261. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 16, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5710898)
The Philadelphia 76ers have been rebuffed in their attempt to hire away Houston's Daryl Morey to take over as their new general manager, @NYTSports has learned
a few thoughts:
1: morey would be an A+ hire.
2: i wonder whether HOU's new owner shot the sixers down, or if morey did it himself.
3: kicking the tires on someone like morey feels like the first step towards promoting their current assistant GM, marc eversley.
4: bitcoin actually solved a huge problem for people (facilitating black market transactions) and several smaller ones
5: it's okay if the sixers want to promote eversley, but they should still interview 10/ish front office assistants from other teams. this is a huge opportunity to crack into the inner workings of their competitors, and it'd be a mistake to waste it.
   3262. tshipman Posted: July 16, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5710993)
I would like to see each NBA team have a D league affiliate, and for it to be pretty painless to bring people up and send them down during the course of the season. I don't think it's necessary to make D league service mandatory; some 18 yr olds will be ready to play, others ... less so.


Nate Duncan had a former G-League coach on his podcast a while back and they talked about this.

Bottom line is that it's not as easy as you make it sound. The G League doesn't have the kind of training or conditioning facilities that the big clubs have. They don't have nutritionists, weight rooms, comfortable travel, etc. And some number of NBA teams share G-league teams. Those are all surmountable problems though.

The real issue is that none of the incentives are aligned. The guys already in the G league want to prove that they can make it. That means winning games and taking shots. They don't want to be there just to develop some 19 year old. They have their own hoop dreams. So do the coaches. You don't get noticed by doing a nice job with the guys who get sent down by the big club. Until that changes, you're talking about a culture of resentment for these guys who get sent down to get playing time over guys who have earned it and are helping the team win.
   3263. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:55 AM (#5711030)
The real issue is that none of the incentives are aligned. The guys already in the G league want to prove that they can make it. That means winning games and taking shots. They don't want to be there just to develop some 19 year old.
I remember that podcast (Dunc'd On really is the best NBA pod) and realized I didn't even consider all those factors. With respect to providing motivation to players to play winning basketball in a team context, the NCAA really does have it all over the G-League. No other North American minor league basketball operation is going to be able to compete with a full NCAA season + March Madness in terms of creating a true team environment.

I watched a few games back when it was the D-League — unwatchable. In terms of running sets, playing as a 5-man squad, there was none of that.
   3264. TFTIO's onanism is a process Posted: July 17, 2018 at 08:34 AM (#5711071)
Yeah, I mean, the Plantation League is a lot more than just 30 AA teams; obviously, the G League is not going to be able to assume all of the work that the NCAA currently does for the NBA. The incentive problem can be addressed, but it'll take money, and as long as the NCAA is around, the NBA would be crazy not to use it.

That said, if -- ʾIn shāʾa llāh -- the NCAA does collapse as the criminal enterprise it is, then the NBA will be on the hook to start a developmental league, and they should be pricing that risk in and developing a remediation plan of their own.
   3265. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:30 AM (#5711084)
The real issue is that none of the incentives are aligned. The guys already in the G league want to prove that they can make it.
This is interesting. But I'm not sure we're talking about totally flooding the G League with elite prospects who would otherwise be one and done guys, thus displacing everyone else. We're talking about something like 15-30 every year, spread across 30 G League teams? Some number will still go to college as long as big time college hoops exists, and some number will be good enough every year to stick on NBA rosters.
   3266. Paul d mobile Posted: July 17, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5711092)
For whatever it's worth, at the end of yesterday's Lowe Post (which was basically about whether or not Chicago and Milwaukee know what they're doing), Lowe and Windhorst spent 30 seconds saying that Toronto is the favourite for Kawhi, and that it's real, as Phil and the Lakers have more or less dropped out. They speculated that they've offered DeRozan, Siakam, and a 1st.
   3267. . . . . . . Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5711104)
Here’s my wacky one-and-done idea:

(1) 18 year olds must be given minimum 2 year guaranteed contracts, regardless where drafted.
(2) No 18 year old can play in the NBA regular season; subject to the below exception
(3) Two new NBA teams will be formed, one in each conference, with 13 man rosters comprised of:
- 10 18 year olds
- 3 veteran players receiving no more than the non-tax MLE
(4) All drafted 18 year olds must be loaned to these teams, but salary paid by drafting team (though not counted to cap). Regular first round contracts kick in year 2 when player returns to drafting team
(5) First round picks will be paid $1M, second round picks the league minimum or such higher salary as negotiated with their drafting team.
(6) If less than 20 18 year olds are drafted, the NBA will offer best non-drafted 18 year olds opportunity to join roster for league minimum salary, paid by league. They will be draft eligible next season.
(7) Both teams play regular NBA schedules
(8) Express purpose of teams is player development. Veterans are selected for both character and ability and are expected to act as quasi coaches (excellent audtition for post-playing career in coaching). Coaching and facilities top notch.
(8) Suggested team locations: Vegas and Tampa.
   3268. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 10:29 AM (#5711110)
Hmm people saying Bjelica might back out of his deal with the Sixers and go back to Europe.
   3269. JJ1986 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5711147)
The Sixers should pivot and steal Anthony Randolph from Europe.
   3270. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 17, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5711149)
No inside knowledge alert! I wouldn't be surprised if the 76ers were encouraging him. With the Kawhi trade breaking down--per Windhorst and Lowe--the 76ers have too many bodies. I'm pretty sure they went after him because they expected to make that Kawhi deal.
   3271. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 11:28 AM (#5711154)
Woj says it's official, going to Europe.
   3272. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 17, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5711169)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 3m3 minutes ago

Sacramento is finalizing a trade to send forward Garrett Temple to Memphis for Ben McLemore, Deyonta Davis and cash, league sources tell ESPN.


ok... (from Sac's perspective)
   3273. JJ1986 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5711180)
Kings Depth Chart:

PG: Fox/Mason
SG: Bogdanovic/Hield/McLemore
SF: Jackson/Shumpert
PF: Bagley
C: WCS/Z-Bo/Koufos/Giles/Skal/Davis

Not a balanced roster.
   3274. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 17, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5711186)
The Kings have been dying to get McLemore's 9 ppg and 112 D-rating back.
   3275. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5711190)
That gives the Kings a bit more cap room to do...what? Ben Mclemore is not an NBA player. Kings fans are going to crap their pants having him back. More cap room for the Kings means more of a chance they do something idiotic with the remaining restricted free agents. Rodney Hood is probably a happy guy right now.
   3276. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5711191)
I wish they could send all their young guys to a competent organization, because I'd like to at least see what Giles and WCS and Fox, etc., could turn into.
   3277. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5711194)
Is Hield going to be anything? I probably saw less than 2 Kings games last year.
   3278. maccoach57 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5711198)
Hmm people saying Bjelica might back out of his deal with the Sixers and go back to Europe.


Rumor!
   3279. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5711218)
@TheSteinLine
One update to the Sixers' foiled pursuit of Daryl Morey: League sources say Philadelphia indeed sought and received permission to meet with Morey, but the Rockets' GM elected to stay where is, having built the league's consensus top threat to Golden State
   3280. aberg Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5711241)
Is Hield going to be anything? I probably saw less than 2 Kings games last year.


I'd say the odds are against it, but not overwhelmingly so. The main thing going in his favor his that he can really shoot. He was at 43% on over 5 3s/g last year. I didn't see a lot of playmaking, but he's also not Wayne Ellington. The defense isn't good and probably never will be. I guess that makes him something like a Joe Ingles type. That can be a useful player on a good team.
   3281. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5711247)
I think he's very different than Ingles, but that aside...

Reminds me of Marcus Thornton, if he didn't get to the line (bit better shooter, though). That's also kind of like Wayne Ellington!
   3282. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5711255)
What do you do if you're Philly now? That sucks - Bjelica was a really good fit, I thought.
   3283. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5711256)
What do you do if you're Philly now? That sucks - Bjelica was a really good fit, I thought.

Agreed- without him, they've had a pretty terrible free agency period.
   3284. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5711258)
I'd say the odds are against it, but not overwhelmingly so. The main thing going in his favor his that he can really shoot. He was at 43% on over 5 3s/g last year. I didn't see a lot of playmaking, but he's also not Wayne Ellington. The defense isn't good and probably never will be. I guess that makes him something like a Joe Ingles type. That can be a useful player on a good team.


Ingles is a very good defender...

Andy Bailey did a stats thread on Hield on twitter recently that was interesting. I think he's definitely something in the NBA.
   3285. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5711261)
The state of the Kawhi talks:
So far, the Sixers have held out three players -- Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz - in talks. Boston hasn't included five players, including Jayson Tatum, Jalen Brown, Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward and Al Horford. The Celtics and Sixers have offered pick-heavy packages that haven't moved the Spurs, league sources said.

Man, I can't believe the Spurs haven't bitten on, oh, let's say Rozier/Morris/2 future firsts!
   3286. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:49 PM (#5711264)
Ingles is a very good defender... and, for a 6-8 guy, passer.

On the McLemore deal, my take was about the same as Kevin Pelton's (makes sense to dump money, add a second for Temple who isn't getting them into the playoffs and is a bit overrated) and is a decent move for Memphis (upgrade on the wing for a team with a legit shot at the playoffs + good match for their culture).
   3287. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5711267)
Memphis (upgrade on the wing for a team with a legit shot at the playoffs

Huh? Is this a widely held view? I'd be surprised if they weren't deep in the lottery again.
   3288. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 17, 2018 at 01:57 PM (#5711268)
I'm really bored at work today and alone in the office so I went back and listened to a Zach Lowe podcast from December 2014 when the Warriors were still just giving a hint at what was coming. The confusion about Draymond Green is the best thing and Lowe getting the first inkling about the possibility of a Death Lineup. There was also some Grizzlies talk which is a reminder of how fast things can change in sports.

   3289. aberg Posted: July 17, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5711272)
Ingles is a very good defender... and, for a 6-8 guy, passer.


Sorry, my phrasing was confusing. I meant that if Hield becomes a good defender, he could become more like Ingles. He's definitely not there now.
   3290. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 02:17 PM (#5711278)
What do you do if you're Philly now? That sucks - Bjelica was a really good fit, I thought.
my first thought was to go after LRMAM, but he's already off the market.

i still think melo makes a lot of sense for the sixers, but i've always liked melo more than most.

my guess is they'll keep that money in their pocket in case they have the opportunity to pick up a late season buyout.
Huh? Is this a widely held view? I'd be surprised if they weren't deep in the lottery again.
probably not, but mike conley is very good and he only played 12 games last year, plus kyle anderson might be really good, and jaren jackson and jevon carter seem like they might hit the ground running.

Sorry, my phrasing was confusing. I meant that if Hield becomes a good defender, he could become more like Ingles. He's definitely not there now.
hield will never be a good defender because he doesn't have the length to defend players who are quicker than him or bigger than him.

his upside is mccollum/beal/fournier. high volume, elite shooter, enough effort to not ruin your defense.
   3291. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 17, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5711283)
Memphis: um, I was speaking nonsense.

I think Memphis is surprisingly high variance and could be better than you'd think. However, they 22-60 last year and are old - a very tough place to start - and, as much as I like Kyle Anderson and JJJ, did not add any world beaters.
Getting a presumably healthy (though in decline) Conley will be big. He only played 12 games last year and those 12 were bad. Adding Anderson and JJJ (even a not ready for prime time JJJ + I like Carter) should help a lot; they'll be replacing awful players. On the other hand... who was the best Grizzly last year outside of Gasol (who has fallen off a bit) and the now departed Evans? You could argue James Ennis. JaMychal Green? Two weeks of Marshon Brooks.
Oof.
   3292. jmurph Posted: July 17, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5711288)
They should be better than last year, for reasons you both lay out. But yeah, it's a steep climb. Of the non-playoff teams from 17-18, I'd definitely take the Clippers, Lakers, and Nuggets ahead of Memphis, and none of the teams that made the playoffs are obvious candidates to fall apart.
   3293. ej2557 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5711335)
The Grizzlies owe a first round pick to Boston in the next few years. It is top 8(?) protected next year.

I think they want to act like they are trying to make the playoffs next year so they will be good enough to get that pick out of the way.

I can't imagine that they actually make the playoffs, but they were 7-5 in the games Conley played last year, including losing the last two games where he was hurt and awful
   3294. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 17, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5711361)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 2m2 minutes ago

Cleveland has waived Kendrick Perkins, league sources tell ESPN.


Magic on line 1.
   3295. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 17, 2018 at 03:48 PM (#5711363)
Does anyone really think Conley's going to be healthy enough to make Memphis remotely competitive? He's played 56, 69, and 12 games the last three years, and he's gonna be 31 in October. If they win 35 games, I'd be shocked.
   3296. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 17, 2018 at 04:09 PM (#5711381)
so, that 2004 olympic roster was kind of amazing:

guards: iverson, marbury, wade
high volume, low efficiency scoring guards, who don't create shots for teammates. 2 of the 3 were awful defenders.

wings: lebron.
it's not really true that he's the only wing on the team, but the best position for literally every other player on the roster was either the 4 or the 5.

forwards: marion, richard jefferson, melo
all 3 are reasonable selections for a better constructed team.

power forwards: boozer, amare, odom
again, each of them is a fine selection, but all of them...there's a reason this team had problems.

centers: duncan, okafor
yeah, that's right. 8 players on a 12 man roster, for 2 positions.


also worth noting: the median age of the roster was 22, and 2 of the 4 players on the team that were 25+ years old were selfish chuckers iverson and marbury.


i know a lot of the better players turned down the invitation, but that roster construction is so depressingly terrible that it's almost inspiring. even assuming that most of the best players weren't willing to play, larry brown could have put together a roster like this:

guards: iverson, eric snow, willie green
wings: lebron, george lynch, aaron mckie, matt harpring, kyle korver
bigs: duncan, tim thomas, theo ratliff, tyrone hill

and that team would have had, at least, an 80% chance to win gold.
   3297. stevegamer Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5711463)
i know a lot of the better players turned down the invitation, but that roster construction is so depressingly terrible that it's almost inspiring. even assuming that most of the best players weren't willing to play, larry brown could have put together a roster like this:

guards: iverson, eric snow, willie green
wings: lebron, george lynch, aaron mckie, matt harpring, kyle korver
bigs: duncan, tim thomas, theo ratliff, tyrone hill

and that team would have had, at least, an 80% chance to win gold.


This is now the single most STIGGLES/STEAGLES/57i6635 post ever.


   3298. aberg Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5711465)
also worth noting: the median age of the roster was 22, and 2 of the 4 players on the team that were 25+ years old were selfish chuckers iverson and marbury.


I remember that this talking point was a very popular explanation for why the team failed. They were said to lack veteran leadership, or at least good veteran leadership. Hard to say how much that matters in a short tournament, but they certainly didn't disprove the thesis.

One thing about the positional redundancy is that 2004 was definitely still a big man era. Argentina beat the US in the semis and won the gold. The lineup data isn't readily available, but it appears that they regularly started Scola and Oberto, who were both post players. They also had two more posts in their regular rotation who got big minutes.

What would be the ideal team USA for 2004? I'll suggest something like this:

PGs- Kidd, Billups, A Miller
Wings- Lebron, McGrady, R Allen, Bowen, Wade
Bigs- Duncan, Garnett, B Wallace, Camby

Close calls- Andre Miller gets to go over several gunner PGs (Marbury, Baron Davis, Steve Francis, Iverson) because there is plenty of scoring and the game management is more valuable here. Sam Cassell would get that spot except he was injured at the end of the season.

Kobe doesn't get to go because his criminal rape trial was taking place during these Olympics.

The wing position really is thin. Rip Hamilton hadn't learned how to shoot threes at this point. Reggie Miller was like 80% washed up, but you could make a case for throwing him in the Wade spot. You could also take Melo there if you like that storyline about him in the Olympics. Bowen is just on the team to play defense and be annoying. He would definitely get punched in the dick at some point, which might prove crucial in the Argentina game. Marion would also be a fine choice on the wing. Ron Artest could take the Bowen spot because these Olympics were still a few months before the Palace brawl, so he wouldn't be blacklisted yet.

Shaq gets left off because he was already done trying in the regular season at this point, so there's no chance he would have tried in the Olympics. Duncan and Garnett could absolutely play together internationally. As tough as Wallace was, I figured it would be nice to have someone like Camby to suck up some fouls against the teams that try to put a 7'2 goon in the middle of the court. The alternatives there are guys like Brand and Boozer who could fake C these days, but not so much 14 years ago.
   3299. aberg Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5711468)
Two follow-up points.

I think both the All-Defense teams or the All-Rookie teams would have done better in the Olympics than the actual Team USA:

All Def:
1st Team
Metta World Peace
Bruce Bowen
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace

2nd Team
Doug Christie
Tim Duncan
Jason Kidd
Andrei Kirilenko (ineligible, replaced by Marion)
Theo Ratliff

All Rookie:
1st Team
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Bosh
Kirk Hinrich
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade

2nd Team
Marquis Daniels
T.J. Ford
Udonis Haslem
Jarvis Hayes
Josh Howard
   3300. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 17, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5711473)
edit: flip
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