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Wednesday, May 30, 2018

OT - 2018 NBA Summer Potpourri (finals, draft, free agency, Colangelo dragging)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  complaints about mayonnaise.


EDIT: image is shrunken. Mouse over to show full size. -vi

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:56 AM | 3814 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   3401. stevegamer Posted: July 18, 2018 at 09:58 PM (#5712322)
I don't know if Mitch Lawrence is a good source, but he tweeted that the Hawks and Thunder are discussing a Melo for Dennis Schroder deal. I have no idea why OKC would do that.


The lack of Melo is probably a good thing for chemistry, honestly. Getting somebody younger, less ball-dominant, and wanting to be there more will help.

DeRozan has 3 more years left on his deal @27MM/yr. I don't think his deal meets the Nene test. If you offered him to any team for free, I don't think he would have a taker. The fact of the matter is that DeRozan hasn't made the Raptors better in a long time. Now, maybe that changes on the Spurs, but it wasn't going to change for the Raptors.


I seriously doubt nobody would take him for free. The Spurs just traded for him, admittedly when they had to make a deal. If you assume he's completely worthless and nobody else in the league would take him for free because those teams are 'smart', which is what you're implying, that makes the Spurs the dumbest-run franchise in the NBA. The Spurs as dumbest franchise is impossible, short of some sort of aliens stealing the brain trust, and replacing the with shapeshifters or something.
   3402. King Mekong Posted: July 18, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5712325)
I hate the trade. Would have rather rolled the dice that he’d come around after playing. Would have at least held out for unprotected pick. Ugh ugh ugh
   3403. maccoach57 Posted: July 18, 2018 at 10:02 PM (#5712326)
I thought people were a bit too quick to put Boston over Toronto before this move, and now I'm much less sure Boston is the better team.

I think Boston has to be given the edge. They were 18th in ORTG last year, and presumably more Hayward and Irving will help with that. They did beat their PYTH by 4 games, so Toronto had a 60-51 in PYTH wins. But we are not sure Leonard will be Leonard, and I am skeptical of the advanced stats as applied to DeRozan. Boston has depth, and they have a good coach. I see them as favorites in the East. Doing the "tier" thing:

BOS
TOR
PHI
---
MIL
WSH/IND
--
MIA
?

Lowe was talking about the East after those groups being "depressing."

I casually root for the Wizards in the East. Rivers and Howard being there will make that a little more of a challenge.
   3404. tshipman Posted: July 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5712334)
I recall that his net ratings have generally not been good, but I am skeptical of the conclusion that DeMar DeRozan doesn't have anything to do with the team winning 59 games last year.


DeRozan is a good floor raiser. A team with him on it will quite likely win at least 30 games per year. However, for the past 6 years, the Raptors have been better with him off the court than on it, and in the playoffs, that difference is only more dramatic.
   3405. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 18, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5712348)
Lowe:

League's trade memo on Kawhi has been sent to teams. Includes one final tidbit: the Spurs are sending Toronto $5M in cash (almost the maximum they can send for the year) as part of the deal. Meant to cover tax hit linked to Kawhi's trade kicker, but still...
   3406. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 18, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5712367)
Re: 3394, didn't Philly's schedule have something to do with that breakdown as well? As I recall, it got really easy toward the end.

no guarantees that this is accurate, but:

first 32: 14-18 (prorates to 36 wins over 82 games), 106 ORTG/107 DRTG (would rank 25th/11th in 2018), 7-13 v. playoff teams / 7-5 v. non-playoff teams.
next 16: 10-6 (51 wins), 112/106 (7th/9th), 5-3 / 5-3
last 34: 28-6 (68 wins), 113/104 (5th/1st), 8-6 / 20-0

they basically had the same record against playoff teams post-belinelli/ilyasova (8-6) as they had v. non-playoff teams pre-belinelli/ilyasova (12-8).


there are two ways to interpret that:
1: tanking teams tanked hard...which is true.
2: having belinelli and ilyasova allowed the sixers to put their foot on the necks of teams that weren't as good as them.
   3407. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 18, 2018 at 11:44 PM (#5712376)
rumor!
so.... bjelica is reportedly negotiating a multi-year deal with the kings. they do not play in europe.


Wasn't there a rumor it was actually the Sixers, not Bjelica, who got cold feet? This would seem consistent with that.

There are like two teams with realistic shots to win the East this year, and Kawhi instantly becomes the best player in the conference by a wide margin.


Besides Giannis being pretty good, Jayson Tatum could close the gap pretty quickly, too.

On the subject, there's one thing that would worry me if I were a Celtics fan: what happens if Al Horford goes down with a serious injury?

Obviously any team besides Golden State is boned if it loses a superstar, but Horford seems like the one guy on the Celtics they would really struggle without. Could be wrong though.
   3408. tshipman Posted: July 19, 2018 at 12:16 AM (#5712383)
first 32: 14-18 (prorates to 36 wins over 82 games), 106 ORTG/107 DRTG (would rank 25th/11th in 2018), 7-13 v. playoff teams / 7-5 v. non-playoff teams.
next 16: 10-6 (51 wins), 112/106 (7th/9th), 5-3 / 5-3
last 34: 28-6 (68 wins), 113/104 (5th/1st), 8-6 / 20-0

they basically had the same record against playoff teams post-belinelli/ilyasova (8-6) as they had v. non-playoff teams pre-belinelli/ilyasova (12-8).


They also only played 5 road games against playoff teams in that good stretch. They went 1-4.
   3409. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 19, 2018 at 07:45 AM (#5712418)
It was fun to listen to Windhorst adn Pelton this morning.

Pelton: Terrible trade for the Spurs.
Windy: But DeRozan is an all star!
Pelton: Then why were the Raptors better when he didn't play?
Windy: But he's a MULTIPLE all star!

I am paraphrasing, of course.

Having slept on it and listened to way too many podcasts about it, I'm firmly on the great for the Raptors, not so great for the Spurs. I don't think it's terrible for the Spurs only because I'm going to assume Pop gets more out of DeRozan than the Raptors did. While I hate to use a Bill Simmons-ism, DeRozan is the perfect Ewing Theory candidate and it's possible the Raptors are a better team today even if Kawhi doesn't play a game for them.
   3410. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:18 AM (#5712423)
Not only did DeRozan get traded against his will, he spent the whole day getting dragged by the entire internet. I guess the tens of millions of dollars sort of compensate for dealing with all this.
   3411. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5712426)
Not only did DeRozan get traded against his will, he spent the whole day getting dragged by the entire internet. I guess the tens of millions of dollars sort of compensate for dealing with all this.

I really hope these guys don't scan the internet for opinions about themselves but we know they do. It reminds me when a non-sports friend of mine asked me what the children of hockey players who had #### ratings in EA Sports hockey felt about people like me cursing their digital avatars for being so ####### useless. I felt a momentary pang of guilt until I started cursing out Bob Probert for not being able to check anyone without getting a 5 minute major. The jerk. I hope HIS children hate him.
   3412. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5712429)
BTW, I watched the teaser for that Boogie Showtime special. The good: He's slimmed down a bit. He definitely looks like he's working out. The bad: he is hella gimpy and obviously months away from playing basketball. The hilarious: He curses so much even the Midnight Run version of Robert DeNiro would blush.
   3413. Thok Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:44 AM (#5712431)
It's not inconceivable to me that Danny Green might have a better post-trade NBA career than Demar Derozan.
Then again, it's not inconceivable to that Jake Poeltl might have a better post-trade NBA career than Kawhi Leonard.

I don't know which of these statements is crazier.
   3414. Paul d mobile Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:59 AM (#5712435)
I am seeing a lot of pro-DeRozan and anti-Raptors sentiment on facebook, twitter, and Instagram in Toronto.
   3415. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 09:42 AM (#5712459)
They get a couple of seconds or a bad first.

Would have at least held out for unprotected pick.

The pick is basically unprotected- there is essentially no chance Toronto's pick doesn't fall between 21-30 this year.
   3416. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 09:44 AM (#5712462)
On the subject, there's one thing that would worry me if I were a Celtics fan: what happens if Al Horford goes down with a serious injury?

Obviously any team besides Golden State is boned if it loses a superstar, but Horford seems like the one guy on the Celtics they would really struggle without. Could be wrong though.

I think that's right, and he hasn't always been the healthiest guy throughout his career.

I think there's a chance Boston finishes 2nd or 3rd in the conference but is the clear favorite heading into the playoffs, because I suspect Hayward and Irving are going to be given pretty heavy rest during the regular season.
   3417. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5712479)
Am I going to have to give in and subscribe to The Athletic? I'm constantly seeing Celtics and other links I'd otherwise click on but more and more seem to be from The Athletic. Any of you guys subscribers?
   3418. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5712484)
The Athletic is awesome, though I read it more for baseball than basketball.
   3419. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5712487)
Tom Haberstroh @tomhaberstroh
Wild note: 24 players played in the 2017 All-Star game. 12 of them have switched teams in the past year, now Kawhi Leonard and DeMar DeRozan.
   3420. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5712488)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania 2m2 minutes ago

Restricted free agent Marcus Smart has agreed to a four-year, $52M deal to return to the Boston Celtics, league sources tell Yahoo Sports.
   3421. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5712500)
Hmm that seems slightly high to me, but I'm glad they're bringing him back and I trust them to figure out the money/tax implications. I assume they'd like to move Rozier at some point before he hits restricted free agency in a year? I get that they need Kyrie insurance for next summer but I'm not sure he's that guy anyway.
   3422. RJ in TO Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5712508)
I felt a momentary pang of guilt until I started cursing out Bob Probert for not being able to check anyone without getting a 5 minute major. The jerk. I hope HIS children hate him.
I don't think it matters how much his children hate him, as he's been dead for the last eight years.

I have no strong opinions on the Raptors-Spurs trade. Mostly, I'm just worried that Kawhi is either going to continue his no-show in an attempt to force another trade, or Kawhi is going to turn out to actually be legitimately hurt and unable to play. As for DeRozan, it stinks that they had to move him, as he seems like a good guy, and it doubly stinks if they lied to him about not trading him before moving him.
   3423. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:51 AM (#5712510)
I'm also glad they're bringing Smart back, but I suspect part of the reason for the signing, even if they plan on keeping him, is that his salary will be useful for salary matching in future trades if need be. Most of the rest of the team is either still on rookie deals or at the max.

Edit: responding to [3421], of course.
   3424. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 19, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5712541)
I don't think it matters how much his children hate him, as he's been dead for the last eight years.

Yes, I have paid absolutely no attention to hockey since the lost season. Why do you ask? Are the Sharks any good?

Hmm that seems slightly high to me, but I'm glad they're bringing him back and I trust them to figure out the money/tax implications.

I will bet my 86/87 Fleer Chris Mullin rookie card that Smart will be traded inside of 2 years. Signing him to that deal makes it easier to put a picks and prospects package together for, say, Anthony Davis or someone else on a max deal.

   3425. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5712664)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania 1m1 minute ago

Denver Nuggets rookie Michael Porter Jr. underwent surgery of the lumbar spine. No timetable for his return to basketball participation.


I know the surgery was mentioned yesterday, but perhaps teams knew it was coming based on the medicals they saw?
   3426. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5712665)
Jabariiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii:
"I just stick to my strengths," he said on 670 The Score in Chicago Wednesday. "Look at everybody in the league. They don't pay players to play defense. There's only two people historically that play defense. I'm not going to say I won't, but to say that's a weakness is like saying that's everybody's weakness. Because I've scored 30 and 20 on a lot of guys that say they play defense."
   3427. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5712667)
Hmm, this one might be better:
"If you know the game, you also know that everyone's a pro, right?," he told the radio station. "And you know that certain guys have an average. No matter what you do, they still get that average. They pay people to score the ball, and I would hope that somebody scores the ball on me if they pay them that much. So, I'm not saying that to cop out or nothing. It's the NBA. We're professionals. Everybody scores. It's just about limiting them as much as you can, trying to contain them."
   3428. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5712668)
JFC between him and Lavine there isn't an ounce of will to play any D.
   3429. aberg Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5712670)
There's only two people historically that play defense.


Huh?
   3430. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5712672)
Name more than two, Berg, YOU CAN'T DO IT.
   3431. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5712674)
JFC between him and Lavine there isn't an ounce of will to play any D.

More than anything he just sounds like a moron. "And you know that certain guys have an average." What? Do only certain players have a scoring average?
   3432. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5712675)
Because I've scored 30 and 20 on a lot of guys that say they play defense.

If I counted right he only has 5 career 30+ point games.
   3433. TFTIO is Lounging from the flat one Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5712680)
If I counted right he only has 5 career 30+ point games.

Which is fine, because there are only two people who play defense, right?
   3434. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5712681)
I'm totally ok with the Bulls gunning to have a season full of 150 to 140 games, whichever side of that score they end up on.
   3435. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5712682)
It might be fun to guess the two players Jabari thinks are the only ones to ever play defense. He's a Chicago kid so I'm going to guess Kirk Hinrich and Derek Rose.
   3436. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5712683)
I'm totally ok with the Bulls gunning to have a season full of 150 to 140 games, whichever side of that score they end up on.

If they go full Westhead I will convert to Bulls fandom.*

*I will not but I will watch their games.
   3437. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5712687)
It's not inconceivable to me that Danny Green might have a better post-trade NBA career than Demar Derozan.
Then again, it's not inconceivable to that Jake Poeltl might have a better post-trade NBA career than Kawhi Leonard.

I don't know which of these statements is crazier.


The first statement is definitely crazier. Green is older, and for a 3&D player, he has been okay, but not good, from 3-point range since 2015 (35% the last three years).

If Kawhi is broken, then the second is feasible.
   3438. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5712688)
It might be fun to guess the two players Jabari thinks are the only ones to ever play defense. He's a Chicago kid so I'm going to guess Kirk Hinrich and Derek Rose.


Jordan and Pippen. Before his time, but in Chicago it has to be them, right?
   3439. TFTIO is Lounging from the flat one Posted: July 19, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5712692)
Jordan and Pippen. Before his time, but in Chicago it has to be them, right?

Not Jordan -- he scored points. I say Ben Wallace.
   3440. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5712697)
He's a Chicago kid so I'm going to guess Kirk Hinrich and Derek Rose.

Deng or Noah. He followed Rose at Simeon HS and idolized him. He also hates defense, so I'm guessing he doesn't think Rose played defense.
   3441. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5712698)
.
   3442. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5712699)
On Porter potentially sitting out the entire season:
Kris @5kl
He's not beating out Simmons for ROY next season anyway. Smart choice to sit it out.
   3443. maccoach57 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5712700)
Lowe:

This is a cold end in Toronto for DeRozan. He embraced a frigid, often forgotten market. He vowed to help fix the team, and he did. He took no meetings in free agency. All he did was work, and get better every season.

This is the sort of harsh NBA reality neither DeRozan nor the Duncan-era Spurs have ever experienced. They might each be unhappy about today's outcome, though the Spurs are surely relieved this is over.

link
   3444. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5712701)
Am I going to have to give in and subscribe to The Athletic? I'm constantly seeing Celtics and other links I'd otherwise click on but more and more seem to be from The Athletic. Any of you guys subscribers?


I subscribe, i think it was $30 for the first year, and definitely enjoy it. I followed Stewart Mandel (College Football) there, and they just added something like 20 CFB beat writers. The baseball is good: Ken Rosenthal, Jayson Stark, etc plus in-depth coverage of about half the teams. Their reporting on the Chris Bosio story a few weeks ago was excellent, for example. The clean layout (no ads or autoplay) is practically worth the cost by itself.
   3445. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5712709)

The pick is basically unprotected- there is essentially no chance Toronto's pick doesn't fall between 21-30 this year


If Kawhi doesn’t play it could. I think that’s mostly why that protection is there, in case he can’t/doesn’t play.
   3446. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5712711)
If Kawhi doesn’t play it could. I think that’s mostly why that protection is there, in case he can’t/doesn’t play.

That's fair, although even then they might finish 5th or so in the East.

Also, for those worrying about the return, if the Spurs get DeRozan, Poeltl, and two 2nds for a broken or holding out Kawhi, that's a pretty good deal!
   3447. aberg Posted: July 19, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5712730)
Name more than two, Berg, YOU CAN'T DO IT.


I'm going to go with Bill Russell, Mean Joe Greene, and Dave Concepcion.

I'm totally ok with the Bulls gunning to have a season full of 150 to 140 games, whichever side of that score they end up on.


In reaction to the signing, Nick Friedell said something like, "Just because you're bad on defense, that doesn't necessarily make you good on offense."

The first statement is definitely crazier. Green is older, and for a 3&D player, he has been okay, but not good, from 3-point range since 2015 (35% the last three years).


I was definitely on the Danny Green train, but he has looked pretty close to finished the last couple of years. He'll be fine in their never-ending procession of quality wing options. I wouldn't put him in their crunch-time lineup, though.
   3448. maccoach57 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5712738)
"Not Jordan -- he scored points. I say Ben Wallace."

I am assuming that Parker meant "got paid for defense" since the rest of the quote is about getting paid to score the ball and the sentence before that says no one pays for defense. With the Chi connection, one of them is probably Rodman. Wallace or Bill Russell is my guess for the other.
   3449. aberg Posted: July 19, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5712740)
I am assuming that Parker meant "got paid for defense" since the rest of the quote is about getting paid to score the ball and the sentence before that says no one pays for defense. With the Chi connection, one of them is probably Rodman. Wallace or Bill Russell is my guess for the other.


Could be Artest. Or Mike Singletary.
   3450. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 19, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5712742)
Those Jabari comments are terrible.

Just for fun, I wanted to see if they "pay players to play defense". Of the 27 highest-paid players, I would say six (Millsap, Conley, Horford, Whitside, Drummond and Dwight) are better on defense than offense, and at least two of them are debatable.
   3451. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5712747)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 1m1 minute ago

Oklahoma City has agreed to trade Carmelo Anthony and a protected 2022 first-round pick to Atlanta for point guard Dennis Schroder and Mike Muscala, league sources tell ESPN. Anthony will be waived, and he will join team of his choice. Rockets are frontrunner.
   3452. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5712751)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania 2m2 minutes ago

Sources: As part of multi-team Carmelo Anthony/Dennis Schröder deal, Atlanta's Mike Muscala will go to Philadelphia, 76ers' Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot will be traded to Oklahoma City and 76ers' Justin Anderson to Atlanta.


Royce Young @royceyoung 5m5 minutes ago

The pick the Thunder are sending the Hawks is 2022 lottery protected first rounder (1-14). If it doesn’t convey, it’ll become two second rounders.
   3453. Tin Angel Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5712755)
Anthony just might be able to push the Bulls over the top.
   3454. Laser Man Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:14 PM (#5712759)
Most Hawks fans were afraid the Hawks would have to give up an asset to get out of Schroeder's 3/46 deal. Getting back a lottery-protected 1st and Justin Anderson, who immediately becomes the backup SF, for just the one year of Carmelo's salary is about the best the Hawks could hope for.
   3455. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5712761)
Oklahoma City was able to accomplish two things by trading Carmelo Anthony to Atlanta, improve the roster while saving $73M this season. The Thunder will now see their projected luxury tax bill drop from $150M to $88.8M, a savings of $62M. In addition, Oklahoma City will save an additional $11M in salary savings with the Dennis Schroder $15.5M contract and the $1.5M cap hit of Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot. The Thunder now have a payroll of $148.7M, down from $159.6M. The roster in Oklahoma City also improves with the addition Schroder, a starting quality point guard that will back up Russell Westbrook and adding a young wing in Luwawu-Cabarrot. Instead of having the $9.3M dead cap hit with Anthony on the stretch provision, Oklahoma City essentially is paying $5M for the next three seasons for a 24 year-old point guard who has started 161 games in five seasons.


Bobby Marks, ESPN
   3456. aberg Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5712764)
Oklahoma City was able to accomplish two things by trading Carmelo Anthony to Atlanta, improve the roster while saving $73M this season. The Thunder will now see their projected luxury tax bill drop from $150M to $88.8M, a savings of $62M. In addition, Oklahoma City will save an additional $11M in salary savings with the Dennis Schroder $15.5M contract and the $1.5M cap hit of Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot. The Thunder now have a payroll of $148.7M, down from $159.6M. The roster in Oklahoma City also improves with the addition Schroder, a starting quality point guard that will back up Russell Westbrook and adding a young wing in Luwawu-Cabarrot. Instead of having the $9.3M dead cap hit with Anthony on the stretch provision, Oklahoma City essentially is paying $5M for the next three seasons for a 24 year-old point guard who has started 161 games in five seasons.



He's talking out of both sides of his mouth. The $73m savings assumes that they do not stretch Anthony. The "essentially paying $5m" per year for Schroder assumes they do stretch Anthony. What would be the 2019 savings for paying Schroder vs. just stretching Melo?
   3457. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5712765)
Schroder can certainly score, but I thought for sure that OKC would just stretch Carmelo. Does this actually help them save any money?

EDIT: thanks for those links. I guess just getting 'Melo off the team is the driver of their savings.
   3458. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:39 PM (#5712766)
heh
   3459. JJ1986 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5712769)
The Thunder aren't saving money, they're paying more every year for the next three years than they would have with a stretch. It's not $5 million instead of $9.3; it's about $17 million instead of $9.3.
   3460. aberg Posted: July 19, 2018 at 07:46 PM (#5712793)
The Thunder aren't saving money, they're paying more every year for the next three years than they would have with a stretch. It's not $5 million instead of $9.3; it's about $17 million instead of $9.3.


Yeah, the analysis I have seen of the deal so far seems way off. They all mix multiple scenarios together.

Scenario A: Thunder keep Melo and his $28m on the books for this year and pay a whopping tax bill that goes away after this season, likely as a straight buy-out. No Schroder, keep pick.
Scenario B: Thunder stretch Melo and keep ~9m (+tax) on their books for each of the next 3 years. No Schroder, keep pick.
Scenario C: Thunder trade Melo for Schroder's $15m (+tax) on their books for each of the next 3 years. No pick, now have Schroder (this is reality)

Scenario A seemed very unlikely from the start because that's a huge check to write when you play for a cheapskate owner in a market that doesn't deserve a pro sports franchise.

That means we're debating about whether you would rather have Schroder or a first-round pick and an additional $6m (+tax) off of the books for each of the next three years. It sounded like Schroder was a negative trade asset to date, so the fact that OKC was willing to give a first rounder and pay quite a bit of money is baffling.

(Note: I get that the $6m isn't free cap space, but since this whole situation seems to be driven by a desire by ownership to pay less money, spending an extra ~$20m for a maybe average player seems nuts.)
   3461. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5712827)
I also just hate the fit of Schroder on OKC. Even if they only overlap for 15 minutes or so you're still either having Russ stand around and do nothing (his default state without the ball) or Schroder stand around and do nothing (because he can't shoot). I don't get it at all, unless they think they can flip him somewhere else.
   3462. jmurph Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:30 PM (#5712832)
So Masai Ujiri is speaking to the media tomorrow but supposedly there will no Kawhi. I'm pretty reflexively pro-player in all situations, but at this point the best that can be said about Kawhi is that he's made some very bad hiring decisions.
   3463. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:52 PM (#5712854)
@TylerIAm
If Aldridge and Demar Derozan ever played on the same team i think i'd quit watching basketball
2:41 PM - 7 Jul 2016

   3464. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5712857)
So Masai Ujiri is speaking to the media tomorrow but supposedly there will no Kawhi. I'm pretty reflexively pro-player in all situations, but at this point the best that can be said about Kawhi is that he's made some very bad hiring decisions.

TOR could still flip kawhi to PHI and get back a hell of a lot more than poeltl and a top 20 protected pick.
   3465. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 19, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5712871)
Not if he's refusing to play for anyone that isn't the Lakers, they can't.
   3466. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 19, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5712885)
Actually, don't I recall scuttlebutt going around that he didn't want to play with LeBron? What the hell does he want, then?
   3467. tshipman Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5712925)
Yeah, the analysis I have seen of the deal so far seems way off. They all mix multiple scenarios together.

Scenario A: Thunder keep Melo and his $28m on the books for this year and pay a whopping tax bill that goes away after this season, likely as a straight buy-out. No Schroder, keep pick.
Scenario B: Thunder stretch Melo and keep ~9m (+tax) on their books for each of the next 3 years. No Schroder, keep pick.
Scenario C: Thunder trade Melo for Schroder's $15m (+tax) on their books for each of the next 3 years. No pick, now have Schroder (this is reality)

Scenario A seemed very unlikely from the start because that's a huge check to write when you play for a cheapskate owner in a market that doesn't deserve a pro sports franchise.

That means we're debating about whether you would rather have Schroder or a first-round pick and an additional $6m (+tax) off of the books for each of the next three years. It sounded like Schroder was a negative trade asset to date, so the fact that OKC was willing to give a first rounder and pay quite a bit of money is baffling.


The only thing I can think of is that ownership might be philosophically opposed to the stretch provision. Otherwise, I just don't see how you'd prefer scenario C to B. Do the Thunder just have a really high value on Schroder? Do they think he can play with Westbrook? Schroder shot 28% on catch and shoot 3s last year and was a terrible defender.

Are they planning on flipping him further? This deal makes no sense to me from OKC's perspective.

Great move for Atlanta, of course.
   3468. PJ Martinez Posted: July 19, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5712941)
"According to a league source, the #Sixers have had discussions about trading Jerryd Bayless to the #Cleveland #Cavs for Kyle Korver."
   3469. maccoach57 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 11:28 PM (#5712973)
So Masai Ujiri is speaking to the media tomorrow but supposedly there will no Kawhi. I'm pretty reflexively pro-player in all situations, but at this point the best that can be said about Kawhi is that he's made some very bad hiring decisions.


A few thoughts:

1. Leonard never actually says anything, so this whole thing has gone on without any quotes from him.
2. All three situations in play or being speculated upon--San Antonio, Toronto, and the Lakers--are all situations that have very obvious and clear positives for a player. So, if Leonard does not want to be in any of those situations...well, then he must really like Steve Ballmer and Jerry West.
3. I think it is interesting that there is all this drama around Kawhi Leonard, whereas Paul George re-upped immediately to stay in OKC with the supposedly toxic Russell Westbrook. Durant bailed on OKC to play on a west coast dynasty in Silicon Valley, James bailed on The Land for Malibu and Hollywood, but Westbrook stayed to carry the flag for the smallest market in the league...and another guy who is good and is from LA is staying to play with him. Oladipo blowing up in Indiana is certainly a piece of evidence in the anti-Westbrook case, but I think these other aspects should be noted.
   3470. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 19, 2018 at 11:33 PM (#5712975)
"According to a league source, the #Sixers have had discussions about trading Jerryd Bayless to the #Cleveland #Cavs for Kyle Korver."
best i can figure:
1.25 * [muscala (5MM) + bayless (8.6MM) + chandler (12.8MM)] = 33MM
kevin love (24.1) + korver (7.5) = 31.6MM
33MM < 31.6MM
   3471. stevegamer Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:54 AM (#5712987)
"According to a league source, the #Sixers have had discussions about trading Jerryd Bayless to the #Cleveland #Cavs for Kyle Korver."


That'd be a great deal. Anyone useful for Bayless is good.
   3472. Thok Posted: July 20, 2018 at 07:06 AM (#5712995)
The first statement is definitely crazier. Green is older, and for a 3&D player, he has been okay, but not good, from 3-point range since 2015 (35% the last three years).


Fair enough; I didn't appreciate how much older Green is than Derozan.

I don't think Leonard needs to be completely broken for him to have less value than Poeltl going forward; Leonard is basically the same age that Grant Hill was when he was traded, which makes that trade something of a fair comparison of how things could go wrong even if Leonard only partially recovers.
   3473. Rally Posted: July 20, 2018 at 08:02 AM (#5713000)
Leonard is basically the same age that Grant Hill was when he was traded


I had forgotten that Hill was traded, remembered it as a free agent signing. It sort of was in that the Pistons would have preferred to keep him and Hill choose to go to Orlando. Just the mechanics of the sign-and-trade deal worked out better for both parties.

And what a great basketball trade it turned out to be - the Pistons got Ben Wallace, one of the key building blocks of the 2004 championship team. Which reminds me of the greatest inspirational speech that never actually happened before the 2004 Finals:

Piston: The Lakers are too many.

Ben Wallace: Sons of Detroit, I am Benjamin Wallace...

Piston: Benjamin Wallace is seven feet tall (including his fro).

BW: Yes, I've heard. Blocks shots by the hundreds, and if he were here,
he'd consume the Lakers with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse < laughter >
I AM Benjamin Wallace, and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny.
You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom?
Will you fight?

Piston: Against Shaq? No, we will run, and we will live.

BW: Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while.
And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days,
from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies
that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our Championship Trophy!!!
   3474. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 09:43 AM (#5713016)
best i can figure:
1.25 * [muscala (5MM) + bayless (8.6MM) + chandler (12.8MM)] = 33MM
kevin love (24.1) + korver (7.5) = 31.6MM
33MM < 31.6MM

Are you suggesting it's going to be a bigger deal than Bayless for Korver? I didn't see that anywhere. Reports are just that Cleveland is trying to save money long term (one fewer year for Bayless) while Philly is trying to save money this year (Korver makes slightly less this year).
   3475. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: July 20, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5713020)
So I shouldn't rush out and by a Melo jersey?
   3476. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5713028)
So I shouldn't rush out and by a Melo jersey?

Would be fun to hang next to your Rasheed Wallace Hawks jersey.
   3477. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5713029)
Dan Devine @YourManDevine
On one hand, I like what OKC did yesterday, in terms of reorienting their roster and strengthening this year’s team. On the other, they’re now on the hook for $119.8 million in 2020-21 for Russ, PG, Adams and Schroder, and you need more guys than that to play.
   3478. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 20, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5713035)
Woj:
"Brooklyn agreed to trade w/ Phoenix to acquire Jared Dudley and 2021 second-round pick for Darrell Arthur, league sources tell ESPN. Arthur ($7.4M) headed for buyout; Dudley ($9.5M) will have that conversation with Nets. Suns save some salary, Nets get a pick protected to No. 35."

Advantage BKN
   3479. JJ1986 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5713036)
edit: I'm wrong, Phoenix does have a tiny bit of cap room with Alan Williams gone.
   3480. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5713047)
On one hand, I like what OKC did yesterday, in terms of reorienting their roster and strengthening this year’s team. On the other, they’re now on the hook for $119.8 million in 2020-21 for Russ, PG, Adams and Schroder, and you need more guys than that to play.

This is pretty much my take. I think they must be planning to attach a pick to Schroeder next year to dump him. I'm not sure how much Schroeder even helps them this year. God help me for saying this, but they will miss what spacing Melo managed to give them. A lineup of Russ/George/Roberson/Adams/Grant is pretty bricky.

Jared Dudley would be a nice pick up for a contender after his buyout. I know the Dubs aren't planning to use that 15th roster spot, but Dudley on a vet min would look pretty good.
   3481. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5713057)
This is pretty much my take. I think they must be planning to attach a pick to Schroeder next year to dump him.

They've already got (protected) 1sts going out in 2020 and now 2022. They're staring down years in the wilderness in the not too distant future.
   3482. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5713063)
They've already got (protected) 1sts going out in 2020 and now 2022. They're staring down years in the wilderness in the not too distant future.

So they are Stepien-ed. I guess they really like Schroeder, then. No one wanted him this offseason when he's a "starter" so I can't imagine anyone will next summer when he's a "backup". (All the takes about how great this is for OKC because they're getting a "starter" have annoyed me. That is a completely arbitrary designation, goddammit.)
   3483. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5713075)
This is pretty fun.

I forgot Jason Thompson was ever a Warrior, much less that he's still getting paid for being a Warrior.
   3484. JJ1986 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5713088)
If I'm Houston, I'd rather have Dudley than Melo for the playoffs.
   3485. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5713111)
I forgot Jason Thompson was ever a Warrior, much less that he's still getting paid for being a Warrior.
hinkie'd.
Are you suggesting it's going to be a bigger deal than Bayless for Korver? I didn't see that anywhere.
nah, i was just having some fun. but there is something odd about the way this is going down.
Reports are just that Cleveland is trying to save money long term (one fewer year for Bayless) while Philly is trying to save money this year (Korver makes slightly less this year).
neither of those things make much sense, though. PHI has nothing to spend money on, so they don't need to save anything this season. CLE will be under the luxury tax if they cut JR smith and george hill next summer.
   3486. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5713116)
neither of those things make much sense, though. PHI has nothing to spend money on, so they don't need to save anything this season.

They're over the cap if the three team trade goes through, which is apparently why they're holding off on making that official until the Bayless-Korver trade goes through.
   3487. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5713119)
@PompeyOnSixers
The #Sixers will get cash considerations in exchange for trading @Richaun Holmes to Phoenix, according to a source.
@KyleNeubeck
The last two years of Jonah Bolden’s new 4 year, $7 million contract with Philadelphia are non-guaranteed, source tells PhillyVoice

   3488. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5713127)
the sixers do not have a GM.
   3489. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5713140)
They've already got (protected) 1sts going out in 2020 and now 2022. They're staring down years in the wilderness in the not too distant future.


Yeah, and I'll go even further and predict that'll be the end of the NBA in Oklahoma City. Could be wrong but I think when they field 30-win teams or worse for a few years they'll be playing in a very sparsely filled arena.
   3490. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5713142)
A 4-year $7 million non-guaranteed contract? What is this, the NFL?
   3491. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5713144)
Bobby Marks
‏Here is how the 76ers will time their transactions: 1) Richaun Holmes to PHX to open up cap space ($1.8M) to sign Jonah Bolden and reach the cap 2) Acquire Mike Muscala as part of the three team trade with ATL/OKC. Philly will still have the $4.4M room ML available.
   3492. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5713145)
(All the takes about how great this is for OKC because they're getting a "starter" have annoyed me. That is a completely arbitrary designation, goddammit.)


It reminds me of Mike Lombardi's line about Colin Kaepernick last year, that unfortunately it so happened that teams were all looking for backups and wouldn't sign him because he's a starter. Yes of course, don't want to provide too much competition for whoever the Jets or Broncos quarterback is this week.
   3493. aberg Posted: July 20, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5713146)
I think it is interesting that there is all this drama around Kawhi Leonard, whereas Paul George re-upped immediately to stay in OKC with the supposedly toxic Russell Westbrook. Durant bailed on OKC to play on a west coast dynasty in Silicon Valley, James bailed on The Land for Malibu and Hollywood, but Westbrook stayed to carry the flag for the smallest market in the league...and another guy who is good and is from LA is staying to play with him. Oladipo blowing up in Indiana is certainly a piece of evidence in the anti-Westbrook case, but I think these other aspects should be noted


We're two years into the age of full Russ and they're 3-8 in the playoffs despite having a second All-NBA caliber player and a very good center both seasons.
   3494. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5713148)
How many big men can Phoenix possibly play?
   3495. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5713153)
It reminds me of Mike Lombardi's line about Colin Kaepernick last year, that unfortunately it so happened that teams were all looking for backups and wouldn't sign him because he's a starter.


Yeah, that's a really bad way of putting it. If he wasn't actually being blackballed (a big if, IMO) Kaepernick's problem was the same as his antithesis Tim Tebow's: he was in theory plenty good enough to be a backup, but no coach wants to deal with the three-ring media circus that would follow the guy into town for the sake of a backup quarterback, or even a marginal starter. Almost all coaches are extremely averse to media attention, and that goes a hundredfold for media attention that doesn't really have anything to do with football.
   3496. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5713162)
Unless it's wife beating or something. Then NFL coaches will go to the ####### mat!

God I hate the NFL. Late July NBA news about salary dumps and buyouts is infinitely better than the NFL. China Klay is better than the NFL.
   3497. tshipman Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5713164)
How many big men can Phoenix possibly play?


As Stiggles will tell you, the lesson of the 2018 NBA season and playoffs is that you can't have enough big men.

(That said, Richaun Holmes is at least an above average backup, so it's weird that Philly is trading him for nothing.)
   3498. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5713167)
Yeah, that's a really bad way of putting it. If he wasn't actually being blackballed (a big if, IMO) Kaepernick's problem was the same as his antithesis Tim Tebow's: he was in theory plenty good enough to be a backup, but no coach wants to deal with the three-ring media circus that would follow the guy into town for the sake of a backup quarterback, or even a marginal starter. Almost all coaches are extremely averse to media attention, and that goes a hundredfold for media attention that doesn't really have anything to do with football.

nah.


people can justify their actions however they want, but the rest of us need to acknowledge the clear and obvious truth: white supremacists ended colin kaepernick's NFL career, and we let it happen.
   3499. TFTIO is Lounging from the flat one Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5713172)
3. I think it is interesting that there is all this drama around Kawhi Leonard, whereas Paul George re-upped immediately to stay in OKC with the supposedly toxic Russell Westbrook. Durant bailed on OKC to play on a west coast dynasty in Silicon Valley, James bailed on The Land for Malibu and Hollywood, but Westbrook stayed to carry the flag for the smallest market in the league...and another guy who is good and is from LA is staying to play with him. Oladipo blowing up in Indiana is certainly a piece of evidence in the anti-Westbrook case, but I think these other aspects should be noted.

I think that it is possible that Oladipo's development was being suppressed by playing with Westbrook, in ways that George is not subject to.
   3500. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5713173)
(That said, Richaun Holmes is at least an above average backup, so it's weird that Philly is trading him for nothing.)
brett brown didn't trust him, he was in the last year of his contract, and the sixers were not going to resign him.


the sixers still have embiid, muscala, amir johnson and jonah bolden (and hopefully, a pair of 6'10+ d-leaguers on 2-way contracts).
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