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Wednesday, May 30, 2018

OT - 2018 NBA Summer Potpourri (finals, draft, free agency, Colangelo dragging)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom can be bothered to curate their own thread to avoid detracting from what this site is really about:  complaints about mayonnaise.


EDIT: image is shrunken. Mouse over to show full size. -vi

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 30, 2018 at 12:56 AM | 3814 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   3501. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5713175)
flip
   3502. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5713182)
I think that it is possible that Oladipo's development was being suppressed by playing with Westbrook, in ways that George is not subject to.


Yeah. George was already an established All Star when he got to OKC. That's different than a young guy trying to develop while RW is jacking 35 shots a game.
   3503. maccoach57 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:08 PM (#5713190)
"We're two years into the age of full Russ and they're 3-8 in the playoffs despite having a second All-NBA caliber player and a very good center both seasons."

WADR, I think this is pretty slanted. To use a Pelton meme, teams win titles (and playoff series), not players--and ofc, Western Conference. And they lost Kevin Durant uncompensated. Also, how big of a deal is it to have a good traditional 5 right now? I think people tend to assume that high-end guys who "jack a lot of shots" are more negative to outcomes than they actually are because of the jacking. Finally, I think George's decision to stay there tells us something. YMMV.
   3504. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5713194)
Alright what's the final return on the Noel/Okafor/Holmes transactions? Muscala, a million dollars, and a couple 2nds?

(I like the Muscala pickup, for the record.)
   3505. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5713195)
ofc

Took me a while to figure out what this means. It feels strange that rr tends to make me feel old with his use of abbreviations and acronyms given that I'm one of the younger people on this thread (I think).
   3506. maccoach57 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5713196)
Pelton ranks the top 50 teams ever:


link

1. 2016-17 Golden State Warriors

Regular-season record: 67-15
Postseason record: 16-1
Defeated Cavs 4-1 in Finals
   3507. JJ1986 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5713198)
Noel was traded for 2 seconds and Justin Anderson. Anderson is gone now. One of the seconds was sold. So they've netted a 2020 2nd from Dallas.
Okafor was traded with a 2nd for Trevor Booker who was later waived. I think that's the Knicks 2019 2nd.
Holmes was traded for cash.
Anderson was traded with TLC for Muscala. I don't think they got a pick.

So the Sixers have given up Noel, Okafor, Holmes, Stauskas and TLC and gotten Muscala, some money and swapped a 2019 second for a 2020 second.
   3508. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5713201)
Hmm probably shouldn't throw Stauskas in because they got the 1st and a pick swap in the original Stauskas deal (granted they screwed the Kings pick up in the Fultz deal but still, that's a big win).
   3509. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:34 PM (#5713202)
out:
G:
W: belinelli, anderson, luwawu
B: ilyasova, holmes

in:
G: shamet
W: chandler, smith
B: muscala, bolden


i kinda want to say the sixers are better than last year, but i'm not feeling it.
Alright what's the final return on the Noel/Okafor/Holmes transactions? Muscala, a million dollars, and a couple 2nds?

too early for a final accounting, but for now:
holmes: 1MM in helicopter fuel
noel: 16 months of justin anderson, 2020 DAL #2, percentage of muscala, 3.2MM in helicopter fuel
okafor (and a 2019 #2): 3 months of trevor booker
   3510. aberg Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5713207)
WADR, I think this is pretty slanted. To use a Pelton meme, teams win titles (and playoff series), not players--and ofc, Western Conference. And they lost Kevin Durant uncompensated. Also, how big of a deal is it to have a good traditional 5 right now? I think people tend to assume that high-end guys who "jack a lot of shots" are more negative to outcomes than they actually are because of the jacking. Finally, I think George's decision to stay there tells us something. YMMV.


Yeah, I'm definitely overstating my opinion because I don't like the Thunder. I don't think you can totally separate Russ's unique attitude from Durant leaving. I also think Adams is a good player, even if overpaid. He's not a particularly efficient scorer, but he's an outstanding playmaker and scores in volume because he works incredibly hard and never gets tired. I don't really believe that there's any special impact to him missing a lot of shots outside of them being missed shots. It probably nets out to him being about the 5th best player in the league.

Still, I hope very bad things come to the franchise. I realized this offseason that Lebron going to the Lakers has made me at least neutral on LA, but Lebron going to OKC would make me hate Lebron.
   3511. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5713211)
Is it really even controversial that the Durant-era Warriors are the best team ever?
   3512. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5713215)
Is it really even controversial that the Durant-era Warriors are the best team ever?

Well according to approximately every player who played before 2010ish, each previous iteration of every team, ever, would have easily dispatched the Warriors.

But seriously, yes, I'm sure there are many people who would still take the 96 Bulls, 86 Celtics, and/or whichever is the best iteration of the Lakers.
   3513. tshipman Posted: July 20, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5713219)
Is it really even controversial that the Durant-era Warriors are the best team ever?


Yes?

If you weight playoff performance highly, you might argue for the 2001 Lakers. If you weight regular season highly, you would value the 1997 Bulls.

If your dominant heuristic is superstar ability, scouting, quality of opposition, or defense, you might value any one of a number of teams more highly.

Edit: If you're Bill Simmons, for instance, you would take the '86 Celtics because you have no intellectual honesty.
   3514. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5713224)
Finally, I think George's decision to stay there tells us something. YMMV.


Maybe. It could also possibly just mean something as simple as PG and RW became really good friends, and winning a title isn't everything to George. I mean, he said he wanted to be traded to the Lakers after a season where LAL won just 26 games (and averaged just 23 over the previous 4 years), and this was a full year before anyone knew LeBron was on his way. Maybe enjoying what he does - whether it's because of familiar places or familiar faces - is just higher on PG's wish list than bringing home the hardware.

(I have no idea if that's true, of course)
   3515. TFTIO is Lounging from the flat one Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5713225)
I think 3514 makes a very important point: different players will optimize their lives for different outcomes. PG certainly realizes that he's not going to be able to win a title in OKC as things are currently constituted, and he's decided that that just isn't as important to him.
   3516. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5713227)
team: # players > 1000 MP; # players > 1 BPM; # players > 4 BPM
86 celtics: 8; 5; 2
89 pistons: 10; 8; 1
94 rockets: 9; 3; 1
96 bulls: 8; 6; 3
01 lakers: 8; 4; 2
13 heat: 8; 5; 1
14 spurs: 9; 8; 2
17 warriors: 9; 6; 3

   3517. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5713228)
Edit: If you're Bill Simmons, for instance, you would take the '86 Celtics because you have no intellectual honesty.

Slightly harsh. 538 (using Elo) had it (pre-KD!), 95-96 Bulls/96-97 Bulls/15-16 Warriors/14-15 Warriors/85-86 Celtics.
   3518. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5713230)
If you weight playoff performance highly, you might argue for the 2001 Lakers.


What do the 2001 Lakers have over the 2017 Warriors? The Dubs had an equally dominant postseason, and a far superior regular season. To give the devils their due, though, I still think the 2001 Lakers curbstomping of prime Duncan and the 58 win Spurs in the WCF was probably the most impressive series I've ever seen, considering quality of competition and all. I don't know if I've ever seen a team that good lose that convincingly before or since.

If you weight regular season highly, you would value the 1997 Bulls.


1996 Bulls had a better regular season, but I agree that the 1997 Bulls have to be ranked as the best team ever, cuz they beat the 1997 Jazz, who can't be any lower than #2 all time. :-D
   3519. maccoach57 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:22 PM (#5713231)
Is it really even controversial that the Durant-era Warriors are the best team ever?


My use of internet abbreviations notwithstanding, I am one of the older guys on the thread, so I actually saw the 1980s NBA in real time. I think that the 86 Celtics and 96 Bulls are on the same level, adjusting for timeline, as the current Golden State team. The 87 Lakers were tic below those three. Those are the four best teams I have seen in my lifetime.

When we were talking about this couple of years ago, I mentioned that I think of it in terms of five different questions:

1. Which team had the best year?
2. Which team had best multi-year run?
3. Which team had the best metrics?
4. Which team would you pick in a best-of-7 if you could somehow adjust for time and space and rules changes and they could play each other?
5. Any secondary factors to consider--expansion, injuries, etc?

One key thing with GS is that they could easily have won four consecutive titles, although I think it is possible, although not likely, that Durant goes elsewhere if GS had won the 2016 Finals.

Anyway, Golden State has a very good argument for best ever, and they are not done.
   3520. tshipman Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5713234)
Slightly harsh. 538 (using Elo) had it (pre-KD!), 95-96 Bulls/96-97 Bulls/15-16 Warriors/14-15 Warriors/85-86 Celtics.


That was supposed to be a joke. Sorry, sometimes I can be too dry.

1996 Bulls had a better regular season, but I agree that the 1997 Bulls have to be ranked as the best team ever, cuz they beat the 1997 Jazz, who can't be any lower than #2 all time. :-D


Whoops. I always mix up which year was the 72 win team.
   3521. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5713235)
I'd like to see their KD-era rankings, not sure if those exist somewhere because 538 is mysteriously very motivated to prevent people from reading their own content.
   3522. maccoach57 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5713236)
Yeah, I'm definitely overstating my opinion because I don't like the Thunder. I don't think you can totally separate Russ's unique attitude from Durant leaving. I also think Adams is a good player, even if overpaid. He's not a particularly efficient scorer, but he's an outstanding playmaker and scores in volume because he works incredibly hard and never gets tired. I don't really believe that there's any special impact to him missing a lot of shots outside of them being missed shots. It probably nets out to him being about the 5th best player in the league.

Still, I hope very bad things come to the franchise. I realized this offseason that Lebron going to the Lakers has made me at least neutral on LA, but Lebron going to OKC would make me hate Lebron.


This is fair. I am assuming you don't like them because of the Seattle dis-connection?

   3523. jmurph Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5713237)
I can't get super excited about the all time team rankings because there is so much gray in these things. Like I'm pretty sure the 16-17 Warriors are better than the best Heat team- if they played 100 times the Warriors win the most games- but I could absolutely see the Heat winning a 7 game series given the right breaks.
   3524. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5713240)
It will always be controversial to say a particular team is the best of all time. The Warriors are in the conversation and I'm good with that. Pelton's list is pretty good. Obviously, it's fair to argue with a ranking here or there but, if you were to divide it into tiers, I'd say the tiers are pretty accurate. I'm surprised the best Heatles teams are relatively low, I guess.
   3525. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5713250)
I'm a bit surprised that the 73-9 Warriors team is only 25th.
   3526. aberg Posted: July 20, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5713255)
This is fair. I am assuming you don't like them because of the Seattle dis-connection?


Yup. I moved to Seattle weeks after the Sonics played their last game and have spent 10 years without a home NBA team.
   3527. GregD Posted: July 20, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5713263)
If the discussion is best team not best dynasty the 82-83 Sixers should be part of the discussion. 65-17 regular season then 12-1 postseason with prime Moses and post prime but still awesome Dr J and prime Mo Cheeks plus other good guys. I don’t think they are actually the best team—Ws—but they should be in the discussion
   3528. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5713278)
@highkin
Between Yogi and Bjelica, "Role players reneging on agreements with better teams to sign with the Kings" is one of the weirdest under-the-radar subplots of the offseason.
@basketballtalk
New 76ers big Mike Muscala in February: I don’t like the 76ers because they, especially Joel Embiid, talk a lot of trash wp.me/p14QT0-3zh7
   3529. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 20, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5713283)
I'm a bit surprised that the 73-9 Warriors team is only 25th.
I was too, but the rationale makes sense: their postseason net rating suffered after Curry's MCL sprain, and there's a standardized penalty for every win shy of a championship. I believe they had one of (if not the) strongest regular-season scores in the whole set.
   3530. stevegamer Posted: July 20, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5713286)
If the discussion is best team not best dynasty the 82-83 Sixers should be part of the discussion. 65-17 regular season then 12-1 postseason with prime Moses and post prime but still awesome Dr J and prime Mo Cheeks plus other good guys. I don’t think they are actually the best team—Ws—but they should be in the discussion


My thoughts exactly. They weren't a dynasty, due to only 1 title, but Malone/Jones/Erving/Toney/Cheeks is a very solid group. Yes, I know that started Iavaroni, but that's a great team with 3 Hall of Famers. I originally typed 4, but Bobby Jones actually isn't in, and that surprised me. 10 All-Defensive First teams(8/2 NBA/ABA) plus a Second team nod, is pretty awesome.
   3531. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5713293)

We're two years into the age of full Russ and they're 3-8 in the playoffs despite having a second All-NBA caliber player and a very good center both seasons.


Playing in the west against good competition with the second all-NBA player only one of the years and a #### supporting cast pretty much as Durant’s burner account would tell you. This year they got a pretty tough matched in 4/5 as they probably both would have been the best team in the east. I’m not willing to call Oladipo an all-NBA player that Russ played with either as he didn’t look anything like that there or in Orlando. Sometimes young guys just improve a lot. Oladipo may have also not be able to sustain last year, though I like him as a player. I think Westbrook has his flaws but as rr would say the dislike of him seems personal/philosophical to his style rather than really rooted in stats.
   3532. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:16 PM (#5713298)
The Lakers are trolling!
   3533. aberg Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5713299)
Edit- unnecessarily snarky.

Suffice to say, yes, my dislike for Westbrook is personal. I acknowledge that.
   3534. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5713303)
The Lakers are trolling!
@wojespn
Free agent forward Michael Beasley has agreed to a deal with the Lakers, league source tells ESPN.
   3535. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5713308)
Yogi Ferrell backed out of his Mavs deal to sign with the Kings.
   3536. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5713310)
Is it really even controversial that the Durant-era Warriors are the best team ever?


I think they are but man that year he has them #1 the Spurs matched up with them well, played them well in the regular season, and I think they really would have pushed the Warriors. I guess Lowe and some treat every LeBron team as a real championship caliber team but I think moreso they beat a Spurs team that was roughly the 47-win team but likely worse as this team had a whole season for folks to get comfortable with expanded roles and then yeah I will give playoff-LeBron a bit of a bump but still have that team as a very weak Finals team, even if not early-aughts East level.
   3537. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 05:47 PM (#5713312)
"sure, i'd listen if the lakers call"
- mo speights.
   3538. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 20, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5713323)
I like Beasley way more than plus minus does. The D isn't good but he can soak up usage with credible efficiency and seems to have cleaned up in terms of things like professionalism.
Not sure he makes sense in LA, though.
   3539. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5713332)
Not sure he makes sense in LA, though.


Couldn't you say that about pretty much all their moves other than LeBron? It's like they drew names out of a hat.
   3540. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5713334)
@DavidMacKayNBA
Unreal. I choose to call this monstrosity LeBrondo McSteasley. PG - Rajon Rondo SG - Lance Stephenson SF - LeBron James PF - Michael Beasley C - JaVale McGee
   3541. Moeball Posted: July 20, 2018 at 06:52 PM (#5713336)
Re: 3523 - one thing I've always wondered about the Miami teams - given how Pop, given a second chance, didn't just beat the Heat, but blew them off the floor in all 4 of the wins for SA - did he find an Achilles heal or something that could be exploited repeatedly? In other words, could this have been figured out earlier? Was Miami actually lucky to have won 2 championships? I'm also wondering if the outcome being so one-sided hastened LeBron's exit? Maybe if Miami 3-peated or at least put up a good fight LBJ might have stayed longer? Hmm...heres a thought...was LBJ already mentally out the door before that series even started? Could that be part of the reason why SA won so easily?
   3542. Booey Posted: July 20, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5713337)
Re: 3523 - one thing I've always wondered about the Miami teams - given how Pop, given a second chance, didn't just beat the Heat, but blew them off the floor in all 4 of the wins for SA - did he find an Achilles heal or something that could be exploited repeatedly? In other words, could this have been figured out earlier? Was Miami actually lucky to have won 2 championships?


Well, the 2013 Heat won 66 games, and the 2014 Heat only won 54. I know a lot of people (myself included) assumed they were just coasting during the regular season, but I now think it's more likely that they really were just simply a much weaker team.
   3543. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: July 20, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5713349)
LBJ seemed mentally out the door in the 2011 Finals. Never got that sense in 2014, though it's hard to remember everything. The Spurs just perfected the game of basketball in those playoffs.
   3544. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 20, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5713361)
Kawhi is in Toronto.
   3545. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 20, 2018 at 08:49 PM (#5713368)
Kawhi is in Toronto.

I was sorta snarkily thinking to myself, that 'yeah we know, have you been living under a rock' for a few seconds.

Then it clicked that this meant he actually showed up and reported. It's kind of surreal that this we are at a point where this needed to be said...
   3546. aberg Posted: July 20, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5713372)

Couldn't you say that about pretty much all their moves other than LeBron? It's like they drew names out of a hat.


That's way too kind. Randomness would give a non awful result once in awhile. They just got every weirdo guy on the market.
   3547. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: July 20, 2018 at 10:47 PM (#5713383)
Re: 3523 - one thing I've always wondered about the Miami teams - given how Pop, given a second chance, didn't just beat the Heat, but blew them off the floor in all 4 of the wins for SA - did he find an Achilles heal or something that could be exploited repeatedly? In other words, could this have been figured out earlier? Was Miami actually lucky to have won 2 championships?

I've never seen better offensive basketball than what the Spurs did in Games 3-5 of that series.
   3548. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 20, 2018 at 11:14 PM (#5713387)
[3546] I actually like this strategy for the Lakers. They still have all their young guys instead of trading them, didn't burn any long-term cap space, and it's at least possible that "weirdo guys" are undervalued. Maybe they think LeBron can keep these guys in line and/or stop their chucker tendencies (Beasley). I don't think it's totally crazy. I do think it sets them up to be the most hated team though (I at least will generally give that spot to the team employing domestic abuser Lance Stephenson).
   3549. maccoach57 Posted: July 20, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5713397)
McGee, Beasley, and Rondo were actually all arguably reasonably productive players last year. McGee was on the champs and played fine, Rondo's team had a good year and Rondo was seen as contributing to it, and Beasley was I think seen as being OK in New York. If Magic and Pelinka had brought in three "normal" guys with the same numbers, people would be asking questions about fit and floor spacing, but the signings would not be seen as noteworthy in a negative sense. And yes, I think it is clear that the Lakers believe that James/Walton/Magic can keep the lid on.

That said, I would rather have had Lopez than McGee, would have avoided Stephenson, and as noted, with James, Ingram, and Kuzma; and with Svi Mykhailiuk looking good in Summer League, it is hard to see where Beasley fits. The Randle/Rondo switch...don't really like it, but I get it, since it is clear that no contracts beyond one year was Priority 1. I think the other angle is that Magic/Pelinka wanted depth in case a scenario arises in which they can move two of Ball/Ingram/Kuzma in a deal for an All-Star.

And yes, these moves give the Lakers a 1980 Oakland Raiders vibe, but probably without the excellent team.
   3550. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 21, 2018 at 12:17 AM (#5713403)
That's TEN-YEAR NBA VETERAN Michael Beasley.
   3551. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: July 21, 2018 at 06:31 AM (#5713435)
I do think it sets them up to be the most hated team though (I at least will generally give that spot to the team employing domestic abuser Lance Stephenson).

They're the Lakers. They are never going to be far off the most hated team, no matter what. And Lakers fans are already plenty used to supporting those kind of players, and excusing that kind of behavior and worse.
   3552. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5713460)
McGee, Beasley, and Rondo were actually all arguably reasonably productive players last year. McGee was on the champs and played fine, Rondo's team had a good year and Rondo was seen as contributing to it, and Beasley was I think seen as being OK in New York. If Magic and Pelinka had brought in three "normal" guys with the same numbers, people would be asking questions about fit and floor spacing, but the signings would not be seen as noteworthy in a negative sense. And yes, I think it is clear that the Lakers believe that James/Walton/Magic can keep the lid on.


Yes. There's a difference between these signings, but they all get lumped together because they're all memes.

McGee and Beasley are both reasonable signings. Low money, guys who have flaws, but excel in one area or another. You sign Michael Beasley not based on how he matches up with the Warriors in May, but because you need some bench scoring in December. The Lakers already have his (slightly upgraded) doppelganger in Kuzma.

Rondo and Stephenson are the head scratchers. Rondo because of the money (9 million in a market where he probably gets the minimum or mini MLE otherwise), and Stephenson because of the lack of talent.

That said, none of this is that bad because they're all 1 year deals. If Rondo is the backup PG, sulks and gets cut, it doesn't really matter. If any of these guys act up, don't get with the program, you just cut them. There is no long term commitment.
   3553. maccoach57 Posted: July 21, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5713477)
3552--good points. A fan buddy sent me a WTF text about Beasley, and in answering him, another obvious thing that you touch on hit me: although it will of course piss off sponsors and fans, I am sure James will get a few DNP-rests this year.* Having Beasley around will mitigate the scoring loss when James sits.

I think the other thing going on, though, is Magic going all Frank Sinatra and Doing It His Way. By bringing in a more traditional 5 instead of going with the slow-footed, floor-stretching Brook Lopez, and by bringing in a poor shooting playmaker with a chip on his shoulder and a Boston Championship Pedigree, Magic is making an old-school philosophical statement about roster construction. I doubt that aspect of it goes that well, but as you say, one-year deals.

*Personal note. We have talked about DNP-rest a few times, and I defended Popovich when Silver gave him some crap about resting his stars in a TV game. But I am seeing another side: some good friends of mine, who are not sports fans, are fostering an African-American teenage boy who is a big NBA fan. I told them I would take him to a Lakers game this year to see LeBron, and I am checking the schedule to try to make sure it is a game that James will not rest in. If it turns out James sits, that will not ruin it--it is still an NBA game--but it will bum the kid out.

As to Stephenson, I think that is simply LeBron wanting his feisty foil. I compared it to Kobe trying to get the Lakers to sign Raja Bell.
   3554. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 21, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5713497)
i get why people think the big 3 is interesting, but this TBT basketball tournament on ESPN has me pissing myself in glee as i recognize random names from the past

yancy gates
brandon davies
dallas lauderdale
quincy miller




   3555. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: July 21, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5713625)
Re: 3553

I purposely avoid road b2b’s when spending top dollar to see top tier teams. The nba is addressing the problem. You’re better off in a home situation
   3556. Quaker Posted: July 22, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5713786)
Pau for Bazemore. Who says no?

Hawks save some $$ in 2019. Spurs add an actual SF, of which they currently have none.

   3557. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 22, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5713879)
@Schultz_Report
Palpable buzz is building around #76ers guard Markelle Fultz. One league source privy to Fultz's workouts w/famed hoops trained Drew Hanlen tells me Fultz's jumper is rebuilt and that a result, the 20-year-old guard is a completely different, vastly improved player.
@basketballtalk
Rumor: People close to Kawhi Leonard think he’ll re-sign with Raptors wp.me/p14QT0-3zij
@highkin
Nothing I'm reading about this Noah Syndergaard news is making me want to have kids anytime soon.
@NBADraftWass
Jared Sullinger...has not shrunk pic.twitter.com/3L8B2ekjur
@YahooSportsNBA
Joel Embiid ain’t playing around! That staredown though : djib2.7 | Instagram
pic.twitter.com/C2XfgNULsn
@AmicoHoops
Former No. 3 overall pick Jahlil Okafor is receiving interest from teams in China, by @amathur90. #NBA amicohoops.net/okafor-drawing…
   3558. smileyy Posted: July 22, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5713912)
Hand, foot and mouth isn't that bad but you wouldn't want to play baseball through it, nor hang out with your team.
   3559. tshipman Posted: July 22, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5713923)
Pau for Bazemore. Who says no?


I think Pau does, right? They sure seemed to have some kind of "arrangement" when Pau opted out and they re-signed him. I would guess there's some kind of non-contractual wink/nod handshake elements to that deal.
   3560. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5713988)
David Aldridge
@daldridgetnt
Clippers forward @tobias31 turns down $80 million extension offer from team, per sources. Amicable discussions. But he’ll play out final year of his current deal and be UFA next summer, when he’d be eligible for 5 yrs/$188M max from Clips or 4/$145.5 elsewhere.

So this is probably going to be a mistake, right? Harris is not getting the full max from the Clippers next year, obviously, and I can't imagine he gets the 4 year from anyone else unless some team is committed to one-upping the dumbest moves from 2016.
   3561. JC in DC Posted: July 23, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5714034)
So, this thread has no velocity in the doldrums of the summer. No one seemed too keen on re-ranking the top 50, how about a different exercise? Examples could be: (1) anticipating All-Star rosters, with a short blurb on each guy; or (2) "surprise" players this coming year (both positive and negative, rookies included), or (3) teams you expect to go up or down?
   3562. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: July 23, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5714050)
I thought there was some interest in doing an updated current top 50 but not in rehashing the historical one.
   3563. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 23, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5714164)
How about this: on average, about 5 players are first time All-Stars each year. Name your 5 picks for first-time All-Stars this year.

Past years:
2018 (6): Embiid, Beal, Dragic, Oladipo, Porzingis, Towns
2017 (4): Giannis, DeAndre, Hayward, K Walker
2016 (4): Drummond, Isaiah Thomas, Kawhi, Draymond
2015 (6): Lowry, Butler, Teague, Korver, Klay, Cousins
2014 (6): Millsap, Wall, DeRozan, Curry, Lillard, A Davis
   3564. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5714173)
First time all stars for 2019:

Donovan Mitchell
Jayson Tatum
Kris Middleton
Ben Simmons
Nikola Jokic
   3565. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5714187)
simmons
fultz
fournier
markkanen
saric
   3566. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5714193)
I'll take:

Simmons
McCollum
Gobert
Mitchell
Covington
   3567. Fourth True Outcome Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5714197)
Seem like sure things:
Simmons
Mitchell
Tatum

Less sure things:
Ingram
Fultz
   3568. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5714199)
What's the math, East to West for two perennial All Stars (LeBron, DeRozan), and West to East for one (Kawhi)? Just trying to get a sense of how many openings there might be.
   3569. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 23, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5714207)
I forgot Gobert hasn't been an all star yet. Still not sure who I'd go with between him and Jokic. I like my other 4 picks, though. I'll be more than a little surprised if Middleton doesn't make it. My off the wall choices:

Clint Capela
Mike Conley (if he's any good at all there will be a real push to include him, I think)
Zach Lavine (I can see him putting up big, empty scoring #'s and getting in that way)
Aaron Gordon (provided the Magic just let him play the 4 and leave him alone he could put up the counting stats to impress the selectors)

   3570. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5714222)
The West is just so difficult to crack. Davis, if healthy, is a lock. Then there's Towns. Last year Cousins made it, so that's theoretically an opening. Aldridge did, too. Gobert seems like a good bet, if he's healthy, to take that Cousins spot.

Conley, I think there's basically no chance of that. Curry/Paul/Westbrook/Harden, then there's Lillard and Klay. Similarly no chance for Mitchell I'd guess.

I like the Simmons pick in the East.
   3571. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5714246)
David Aldridge @daldridgetnt 2h2 hours ago

Asked about his recent travels the past few years, Howard has a ready-made answer: “I learned Magic for eight years. Went to La-La Land. Worked for a while with Rockets. Learned to fly with some Hawks. Got stung by the Hornets. And it all taught me how to be a Wizard.”


The Wizards should cut him immediately.
   3572. JJ1986 Posted: July 23, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5714254)
Simmons
Tatum
Kemba Walker
Justise Winslow
   3573. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:03 PM (#5714263)
Somebody has to be an All-Star from the East (until they just go league-wide with the Captain thing):

Hassan Whiteside
Miles Turner
Otto Porter

Devin Booker
   3574. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5714269)
What's the math, East to West for two perennial All Stars (LeBron, DeRozan), and West to East for one (Kawhi)? Just trying to get a sense of how many openings there might be.


Yes, although if you are looking at deltas from 2018, Kawhi didn't make it (for obvious reasons).
   3575. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:11 PM (#5714273)
(2) "surprise" players this coming year (both positive and negative, rookies included)


I think whoever signs David Nwaba for the league min will get a steal.
   3576. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5714285)
(3) teams you expect to go up or down?

Saw some version of this tweeted out yesterday but now I can't find it. Thought it was interesting to think about:

At least five of the following teams will miss the playoffs this year (assuming Suns and Kings as locks to miss out): Houston, Golden State, Portland, OKC, Utah, New Orleans, San Antonio, Minnesota, Denver, LAC, LAL, Dallas, Memphis

I'd add Memphis and Dallas as locks to miss the playoffs. And Houston and Golden State as locks to make it. So that means three of these teams will miss the playoffs: Portland, OKC, Utah, N.O., San Antonio, Minnesota, Denver, LAC, and LAL.

(These were good prompts, JC and Athletic Supporter. If you guys could just pose some fresh new questions every single day until camps open that would be super, thanks.)
   3577. TFTIO is Lounging from the flat one Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5714291)
I can see OKC flaming out; I can also see Thibs running one or more of their Big Two And A Half into the ground, and the wheels will come off really, really fast in that case. I would expect Utah to push strongly for #3.
   3578. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5714296)
Is LAC not a lock not miss the playoffs?
   3579. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5714301)
Is LAC not a lock not miss the playoffs?

I don't think so, no. I'd probably put them among the group of three most likely to miss the playoffs, but not a lock.
   3580. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5714304)
I can see OKC flaming out; I can also see Thibs running one or more of their Big Two And A Half into the ground, and the wheels will come off really, really fast in that case. I would expect Utah to push strongly for #3.

Right now I'd probably go with the Clippers, Wolves, and for some reason I feel like Portland has a collapse in them. Or New Orleans due to a Davis injury. Those are all really solid teams, though, it's amazing how deep the West looks once again.

Even though I feel like the Kings, Suns, Mavs, and Grizz are locks to miss out, all 4 should be better, maybe even much better, than they were last year.
   3581. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5714306)
If I had to bet my life on any of those teams making the playoffs, I'd probably go Utah because of their home-court advantage, and they fact that their Pythag record last year was 53-29.

Weirdly I think they Schroder fit will be good for OKC as a poor man's Westbrook off the bench in terms of continuity of styles. Getting Roberson back will be a big plus as well.

I think Joe House threw out the idea on Simmons' podcast that the Lakers are basically tanking this year by bringing in these guys on one-year deals, and will be happy to let LeBron coast through a year and load up for 2019-20. I'm not sure I buy that, but the same thought had crossed my mind.
   3582. jmurph Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5714312)
I think I'd actually make the Lakers the 3rd lock in the West (though not in 3rd place), just because I can't imagine LeBron not making the playoffs.
   3583. CFBF Rides The Zombie Ice Dragon Posted: July 23, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5714316)
You know, Dwight Howard doesn't seem like a bad guy, most of the time. But he might be the first player in NBA history who's so corny it turns him into a locker room cancer.
   3584. RJ in TO Posted: July 23, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5714325)
I think Joe House threw out the idea on Simmons' podcast that the Lakers are basically tanking this year by bringing in these guys on one-year deals, and will be happy to let LeBron coast through a year and load up for 2019-20. I'm not sure I buy that, but the same thought had crossed my mind.
"We've got the best player in the game when he's 33, so let's throw next season, to compete when he's 35" seems like a completely insane idea. I know LeBron appears to be eternal, but time has to catch up with him at some point and, at his age with his mileage, there should be a greater sense of urgency than this.

Also, I'm not sure if LeBron is capable of coasting for a year.
   3585. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 23, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5714327)
You know, Dwight Howard doesn't seem like a bad guy, most of the time. But he might be the first player in NBA history who's so corny it turns him into a locker room cancer.


Back a couple years ago when I had a daily commute I'd turn on Jim Rome to kill some time in traffic, and Rome would play the "I've been a champion my whole life" clip from Dwight quite often. It made me laugh every time.

"We've got the best player in the game when he's 33, so let's throw next season, to compete when he's 35" seems like a completely insane idea. I know LeBron appears to be eternal, but time has to catch up with him at some point and, at his age with his mileage, there should be a greater sense of urgency than this.


Pelinka and Magic seem like nice enough, competent guys but I don't think they are anything more than a fairly average NBA FO. Like if you put them in Chicago or GarPax in LA you'd probably see similar results as Chicago and LA have now. Granted there are probably only 3-4 FOs in any given major sport at any given time that move the needle, and in LA, with all its inherent advantages, mediocre might do just fine.
   3586. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 23, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5714334)

LeBron's mentality is also my hesitation: I can see the argument for saving LeBron's miles, then signing a star or two to make a real title run with LeBron/Lonzo/Ingram/Hart. But I also can't see LeBron actually going along with this.
   3587. TFTIO is Lounging from the flat one Posted: July 23, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5714340)
I have to say I find the LAL situation really fascinating. That is not going to be a good team next year, as currently constituted, and I can easily see them missing the playoffs. If I, with my superficial knowledge of basketball, can see that, then LeBron can as well. So what's going on? It's gonna be super interesting to watch, I think.
   3588. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 23, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5714344)
Anyone have thoughts on the new twitter account @the_bball_index ?

Woj: "Memphis has agreed to trade Jarrell Martin and cash to Orlando for Dakari Johnson, league sources tell ESPN."
   3589. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 23, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5714347)
then LeBron can as well. So what's going on? It's gonna be super interesting to watch, I think.


I think Lebron knows his career is winding down and has decided for perhaps the first time in his entire life that enjoying life off the court might be something he considers while he's still actively playing. I don't think 27 year old Lebron is going to LA if he's not guaranteed to have another star or two join him. I also think that Lebron knows he's at worst tied for GOAT status and that to convince everybody else he needs a few more rings, which isn't realistically happening anywhere, so why not enjoy LA for the last go 'round?

It's going to be interesting imo to see how Lebron is received historically by Laker fans if this does not end in a title.
   3590. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 23, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5714398)
[The Lakjers are] not going to be a good team next year, as currently constituted, and I can easily see them missing the playoffs
I'm not sure to what extent I (dis)agree with this: maybe it's just that I see much larger error bars in either direction on my predictions here. They're certainly not a team that will outplay their talent level due to brilliant, jigsaw-like fit of skills throughout the roster; but they have quite a bit of talent, albeit much of it centered in the person of LeBron. I could see them squeaking into the playoffs largely on LeBron's back, then outplaying their seed based on the intensity, physicality, and intelligence ([insert Stevenson and McGee jokes here]) of many of their players. I don't think anyone sees them as a serious contender, but I won't be ready to write them off until at least the 20-game mark—and even then, only if dysfunction or lack of spacing is at crisis level rather than merely missed opportunity level.
   3591. maccoach57 Posted: July 23, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5714410)
Pelton:

a team with the Lakers' projected offensive and defensive ratings would win about 50 games, which would figure to put them in the mix for third in the Western Conference. That projection is tempered by the tendency for teams who add a superstar like LeBron to underachieve in their first season as they build chemistry. However, the Lakers can still improve as they fill out their roster by signing minimum-salary players who are better than replacement level.

In particular, Randle's departure leaves the Lakers thin at center, a position where replacement-level players have been more effective than any other.

The Lakers don't likely have a path to challenging the Warriors next season, even with James. But after five seasons in the lottery, L.A. should again challenge to win a playoff series or two while building something bigger and better for future seasons.


link
   3592. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 23, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5714417)
just a reminder:
the sixers do not have a GM
the melo trade is being held up for "reasons"
michael beasley has thoughts:
All I’m saying is the words that we use are concocted by someone who thought a hammerhead shark should be called a hammerhead shark just because it looked like a hammer we invented. We don’t know the actual term, the actual word, the actual definition behind the words that we use.
...A doctor. Has. To learn. Something. And everything a doctor learns is man-written. And everything a doctor’s learned is man-written. So, you can sit there and tell me you learned it, and yes I agree with you, I agree with you 100 percent. But it was a word that somebody else concocted
...You can’t sit here and tell me that I can only use 10 when you can only use 10. Because in order to see the number 10, you have to pass it to 11 and look back. You know what I’m saying?

luke walton will resign three days into training camp, citing mental fatigue in a press release; he'll be replaced by his father, who will coach the lakers to an 82-36 record this season; they'll miss the playoffs by 7 games.
   3593. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: July 23, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5714442)
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think I let the flow of the conversation color my take; rr's link in [3591] is a good one. The Lakers will do better than "squeak" into the playoffs, though I stand by the rest of [3590].
   3594. maccoach57 Posted: July 23, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5714449)
Last year seven teams won between 46-49 games in the West. Portland was the 3 seed at 49-33. Denver finished 9th at 46-36. Then came the Clippers at 42-40 and the Lakers at 35-47. Randle was probably the team's best player, but he has been in effect replaced by James. So, I think the way Magic and Pelinka figure it: they have James, the four young guys will probably collectively improve, the four Clowns and Bastards all bring something to the table, will stay in line playing for Magic and with LeBron, and and can be cut if not(actually about true about the table part IMO except for Stephenson), and most importantly, no FA other than James signed by the Maginka FO is on more than a one-year deal. A few points related to some posts I am seeing here:

1. The "tank with LeBron" was not planned as a strategy. They tried to trade for Leonard and presumably would have tried to sign George. It just worked out that way because James was, surprisingly to many, willing to come here without a second star secured.
2. As noted, McGee and Beasley are not bad players, and arguably neither is Rondo. Floor spacing is going to be an issue, but these three guys do have certain skills on the floor.

If the Lakers go 45-37 and finish 9th--certainly plausible--it will be a huge deal in the MSM and a schadenfreude fest. But what actually matters is not whether the Lakers win 51 or 49 or 45 or 43 this year, so long as the following occurs:

1. James stays healthy and effective for three years.
2. They score in FA in 2019.
3. The young guys get better and/or fetch a star in trade.

The Clowns and Bastards will affect these things, but not that much. That said--the team needs to have a contending roster in place at this time next year, and that is far from a certainty.
   3595. aberg Posted: July 23, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5714451)
So that means three of these teams will miss the playoffs: Portland, OKC, Utah, N.O., San Antonio, Minnesota, Denver, LAC, and LAL.


I would group those nine like this:

Very likely to make the playoffs:
LAL- Lebron is worth many wins. I think Lonzo will be better and Ingram will be a lot better.
OKC- Once PG settled in last year, they were very good. Melo is addition by subtraction. They're not as good as their tax bill, but they'll make the postseason.
UTAH- They play defense better than any of these other teams do anything.

Moderately likely:
SA- Aldridge, Gasol, Ginobili not getting younger. Slomo, Parker gone. Desperately need Pop to get more out of Derozan.
DEN- Narrowly missed last year and seems like more Millsap should make up the difference.
MIN- 3rd last year until Butler got hurt. Crawford was a gaping wound last year and he's gone. Towns and Wiggins should theoretically get better.
POR- I might overrate them because I REALLY like Lillard. Even if a lot of their role players are overpaid, they're real NBA players to go with 2 stars.

Least likely:
LAC- I'm pretty willing to just rule them out. Lots of very young players plus good role players.
NO- Signing Randle to go with Davis and Mirotic seems to undermine the secret sauce that catapulted them into the playoffs last year.

Breaking it down that way, I think I would have the Pelicans, Clippers, and (gulp) Spurs on the outside looking in. In reality, I think the answer is that something like 2-5 of these teams will get taken out of the playoff race due to injury. Last year, injuries took MEM out of the race entirely, forced MIN and DEN into a game 83 playoff, and pulled SA from the upper echelon to barely making it.
   3596. aberg Posted: July 23, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5714456)
Clowns and Bastards


Love it.
   3597. maccoach57 Posted: July 23, 2018 at 07:49 PM (#5714468)
Hombre came up with it after the Rondo signing. I will meme it, I think.
   3598. Willard Baseball Posted: July 23, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5714620)
Memphis will win more games than the Clippers.

I have the following teams not making the playoffs:

Suns
Clippers
Kings
Mavericks
Portland
Minnesota
San Antonio
Denver

Memphis as 7 seed, also above New Orleans.

West is going to be loaded this year!
   3599. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 24, 2018 at 07:38 AM (#5714684)
The Golden State Warriors were a team Howard considered after the trade to Brooklyn but said he changed his mind when Wall called to ask, “You want to come to D.C.?” “I was like, ‘Nah, this is the spot right here,’” Howard said.



"I have not heard thrilled," Kawakami shared. "I've heard bold, I've heard risk taking is good, and I've heard—I haven't reported this, so maybe this will get aggregated—it's better than Dwight Howard. Dwight Howard was a no. That was a no in a lot of precincts of the Warriors, flat-out no. So DeMarcus Cousins, against that backdrop, is a thumbs up."


So, which is fake news?

On the Lakers and the playoffs...I would be a little shocked if they missed but I feel that way about, like, 10 teams in the West. So, while I think the Lakers will make it, the margin for error is slim and if LeBron misses any time they could be screwed.

   3600. PJ Martinez Posted: July 24, 2018 at 08:04 AM (#5714693)
So, which is fake news?
I don't know the context of the first quote, but that sentence says that Howard considered Golden State, it doesn't say that Golden State considered him.
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