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Saturday, April 21, 2018

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (April - June 2018)

The following is previously unseen rehearsal footage of Prince & The Revolution from the summer of 1984.

It was in this very room at Flying Cloud Drive Warehouse in Eden Prairie, Minnesota that Prince created and committed to tape one of his most beloved and iconic compositions, which six years later would become a worldwide hit for Sinead O’Connor.

Prince’s original studio version of ‘Nothing Compares 2 U’ is presented here for the first time.

Trial to see if there’s sufficient support to make this a thing.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: April 21, 2018 at 02:32 PM | 3812 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   1601. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5673499)
I thought Vince D'onofrio's portrayal of Wilson Fiske ("The Kingpin") in the Netflix "Daredevil" series was outstanding and really carried the entire show.

The Kingpin was quite good, but crediting the quality of the series to D'Onofrio's standard Daddy-issue virgin/whore obsessed portrayal over Charlie Cox's work as the lead is pretty troubling as a judgment. And I think D'Onofrio has immense talent, but this character was just another "WTF cares why he's iconic in the comics?" take IMO.

EDIT: My point is more to credit Cox than to denigrate D'Onofrio, and I over-snarked.
   1602. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5673500)
The Kingpin was fine, but crediting the quality of the series to D'Onofrio's standard Daddy-issue virgin/whore obsessed portrayal over Charlie Cox's work as the lead is pretty troubling as a judgment.


Yeah he did a great job staring blankly. At least Al Pacino danced while doing it.
   1603. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5673501)
Yeah he did a great job staring blankly.

OK, you can join that podcast.

   1604. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5673503)
Fisk in the show was good, but Killgrave (Jessica Jones) is the best villain Marvel has put out IMO. Thanos was better than he had any right to be.
   1605. Srul Itza Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5673505)
If culture was in spider man then yes


I know it is a typo, but that sentence cries out to be dissected. It is practically a koan by itself.
   1606. Srul Itza Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5673508)
Loved David Tennant's Killgrave, but since I'm a Tennant fanboy, my take on it is subject to question.
   1607. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5673509)
Fisk in the show was good, but Killgrave (Jessica Jones) is the best villain Marvel has put out IMO.


Good actor, lame character, corny science. "ooooh it's a super mind-controlling VIRUS! That acts immediately! Did I mention VIRUS?"
   1608. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5673514)
As far as staring blankly, at least Cox had an excuse. Maybe during that scene, D'Onofrio was trying to figure out which way to best emote.
   1609. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5673515)
Good actor, lame character, corny science. "ooooh it's a super mind-controlling VIRUS! That acts immediately! Did I mention VIRUS?"


Very good actor. Very good character. Fine comic science. I mean seriously if you are critiquing the science in a comic show past "It was so bad it yanked me out of the story" then you are way over thinking it.

And yes I realize different people have different "so bad" thresholds for science. Stuff we know more about we are more critical of in general.
   1610. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5673524)
I do think that the Marvel Netflix franchises were actually hurt by how successful Daredevil and Jessica Jones were out of the gate. You can almost see the moment halfway through Luke Cage Season I where anyone involved was kinda like "We can do NO WRONG" and it really hampered everything that followed.
   1611. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5673530)
I have that discussion with my wife, she says "off-TEN" and I say that often is pronounced "OFF-en". I ask her if she says lis-TEN and mois-TEN and she tells me to shut up.
She's a woman, of course she never says anything involving "moist."
   1612. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5673547)
So, combining this with the David Price video gaming thread, maybe we should have some sort of contest to see who around here is *most* out of touch with current pop culture? I think I would have to be a contender:

--No social media profiles (except one on LinkedIn that I was forced to set up during law school but haven't checked in more than 3 years)
--Haven't played video games since, let's see...Super Nintendo
--Can't stand club music, dance pop, EDM, most mainstream hip-hop, Ed Sheeran - basically anything you hear on a "Hot Hits" radio station
--Don't see the point of superhero/comic book movies at all and haven't seen one since, I think, the Dark Knight (unless you count Star Wars?)
--Also don't get into long-form episodic dramas on TV, so haven't seen a minute of any of them (Sopranos, Lost, 24, Breaking Bad, the Wire, GoT, House of Cards, literally any of them)
--Don't like football at all

I'm sure there's more to my curmudgeonliness iceberg, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm not necessarily flaunting it as a badge of honor, but neither does it concern me at all not to be in touch with any of the above.

Anyone else?
   1613. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5673548)
Very good actor. Very good character. Fine comic science. I mean seriously if you are critiquing the science in a comic show past "It was so bad it yanked me out of the story" then you are way over thinking it.


The science was stupider than every zombie movie ever made, and that includes "Return of the Living Dead" and the video for "Thriller".

There has to be a limit to how much baloney you can swallow in pursuit of the MacGuffin. This isn't "fireballs in outerspace" window-dressing, this was a REALLY bad attempt to hide behind "science" because they knew ESP or alien mind-control implants were too corny.
   1614. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:03 PM (#5673549)
Good actor, lame character, corny science. "ooooh it's a super mind-controlling VIRUS! That acts immediately! Did I mention VIRUS?"


I thought that character was great. Restrained villains are always much more intimidating.

Watched "Se7en" last night for the first time since the mid-90s, and had a serious Mandela effect: [SPOILERS] I could have sworn there was a shot of Paltrow's head in that final scene, but no.
   1615. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:10 PM (#5673556)
Anyone else?

I only have four out of your six.


There has to be a limit to how much baloney you can swallow in pursuit of the MacGuffin. This isn't "fireballs in outerspace" window-dressing, this was a REALLY bad attempt to hide behind "science" because they knew ESP or alien mind-control implants were too corny.

The comic explanation was pheromones, which honestly isn't particularly that far off of a virus for getting a massive number of dumb/bored/ADD people to buy in without something more in-depth to cause people to hit STOP.

Listen, Mozart in the Jungle had NOTHING to do with anything about what professional classical music is like, but you don't see me going all COMIC SCIENCE BOOK GUY on it. Sheesh.
   1616. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5673561)
The comic explanation was pheromones, which honestly isn't particularly that far off of a virus for getting a massive number of people to buy in without something more in-depth to cause people to hit STOP.


Phermones are fast-acting (and interestingly enough, humans still have a vestigial remnant of the organ and neural tract where we would be sensing them, we didn't even know it was there until the 90s) and can indeed cause basic behavior changes in seconds, a virus that acts that fast is basically magic and defies everything every known about viral biology.

Back to the vomeronasal organ (VNO), which is what detects phermone signals, the paper that found the vestigial tract for it was published when I was a GTA teaching human gross anatomy. I received an email from the director of the lab saying that he and the two co-directors were coming into the lab that weekend to look for VNOs and related structures based on this paper and anyone who wanted to come along was welcome. We went through about 20 cadavers and I think we could definitively identify about 6 of them. They're pretty hard to track down.
   1617. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5673566)
I could have sworn there was a shot of Paltrow's head in that final scene, but no.


See, I thought it was supposed to be the fetus, not her head.

Either way, it was supposed to convey to Pitt's character that EVERYTHING he loved was now gone.
   1618. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5673567)
Ridiculous, he still had his hair.
   1619. BDC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5673571)
*most* out of touch with current pop culture?

--I'm on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, though I rarely post anything anywhere except the occasional snark or kitten photo on FB
--Never took to video games
--Musical tastes: I have been playing Erik Satie's first "Prelude du Nazaréen" over and over in my car lately. It's a wonder I haven't fallen asleep and run into a tree
--I liked Wonder Woman and Black Panther, but I don't rush out to see that genre. I do like mild SF and tend to see the new ones in that genre (Passengers, Life, Arrival, etc.)
--Definite fan of longform TV, and was sort of up-to-date on a couple of current ones (Saul, Fargo, The Bridge) but am falling behind lately
--Follow no sports anymore except baseball
--For a while there I was keeping up with some YA novels, which my baseball pal would get from her preteen neighbor and pass on to me. I read Divergent before it was a movie, for instance. That too has stopped. Maybe the girl grew up

   1620. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5673573)
Phermones are fast-acting (and interestingly enough, humans still have a vestigial remnant of the organ and neural tract where we would be sensing them, we didn't even know it was there until the 90s) and can indeed cause basic behavior changes in seconds, a virus that acts that fast is basically magic and defies everything every known about viral biology. Back to the vomeronasal organ (VNO), which is what detects phermone signals, the paper that found the vestigial tract for it was published when I was a GTA teaching human gross anatomy. I received an email from the director of the lab saying that he and the two co-directors were coming into the lab that weekend to look for VNOs and related structures based on this paper and anyone who wanted to come along was welcome. We went through about 20 cadavers and I think we could definitively identify about 6 of them. They're pretty hard to track down.

It is somewhat hard to believe Netflix didn't have you on to script consult.
   1621. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5673578)
--No social media profiles (except one on LinkedIn that I was forced to set up during law school but haven't checked in more than 3 years)
--Haven't played video games since, let's see...Super Nintendo
--Can't stand club music, dance pop, EDM, most mainstream hip-hop, Ed Sheeran - basically anything you hear on a "Hot Hits" radio station
--Don't see the point of superhero/comic book movies at all and haven't seen one since, I think, the Dark Knight (unless you count Star Wars?)
--Also don't get into long-form episodic dramas on TV, so haven't seen a minute of any of them (Sopranos, Lost, 24, Breaking Bad, the Wire, GoT, House of Cards, literally any of them)
--Don't like football at all


-- Facebook, but that's it, except when I have to use Twitter or LinkedIn for work.
-- Never played a video game or computer game in my life. Never even played pinball.
-- As for music, pretty much stick to vintage postpunk &/or or recent stuff by vintage postpunk bands.
-- Watched the two Capt. America movies because of my fondness for the character, but otherwise no interest in that film genre.
-- Never seen any of the TV dramas you cite.
-- Despise any sport other than baseball.

I'd say I'm in the out-of-touch ballpark, at the very least.
   1622. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5673580)
It is somewhat hard to believe Netflix didn't have you on to script consult.


We'll see if they pick up my "Huddie Ledbetter: Zombie Hunter" screenplay. Great science, great music.
   1623. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 02:45 PM (#5673589)
I thought Vince D'onofrio's portrayal of Wilson Fiske ("The Kingpin") in the Netflix "Daredevil" series was outstanding and really carried the entire show. None of the other Netflix Marvel cast-off series have held my interest.


I'm in the minority, as I really didn't think Kingpin was anything special. Kilgrave, on the other hand...

I’ve heard that argument for Killmonger before and now that I’ve seen the movie Killmonger just comes off as a petulant child turned psychotic and I think that was the actual direction they wanted to go with that character.


He's completely right that Wakanda has had the ability to help others for centuries, but failed to do so even as Africa and Africans were colonized and sent to America to labor in chattel slavery. He's 100% wrong about the solution being armed revolution and payback against the power structures that enforced and profited from that system. I think it's telling that his dad was a black nationalist in America. And given that his critique of Wakanda's isolationism is correct, it's disappointing to see that he can't get beyond his desire for revenge on the western world. It's what makes him a villain, and he only realizes it when he's mortally wounded. Also, he has one of the best last lines in any movie, superhero or otherwise.

Nicholson/ledger


I don't find Nicholson or Ledger's Jokers to be all that complex. They're both a great deal of fun, but I don't see much depth to them beyond "look at me I'm so crazy and unpredictable and maybe I have a plan or maybe I'm just having a joke." I really enjoyed both performances, and they absolutely improve the movies they're in, but I just don't see the complexity of a Killmonger or Captain Zemo in them.

Anyone else?


-- Have Facebook and Twitter, seldom post on either.
-- Play video games plenty, but not at all into the online competitive FPS/Battle Royale format
-- Pretty much stopped listening to music because now I listen to podcasts. I still enjoy good pop music, and tend to at least keep up with what's trending.
-- Seen pretty much all of the Marvel movies, enjoy them as popcorn humor and am occasionally impressed when they add something else above and beyond that (e.g. Winter Soldier, Civil War, BP).
-- Watch a lot of TV, but quit shows the minute I think they're going downhill because there's too much to watch.
-- Casually follow NBA/NHL/College BB, follow Soccer/NFL, closely follow MLB

I'm so damned hip it hurts.
   1624. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5673609)
--For a while there I was keeping up with some YA novels, which my baseball pal would get from her preteen neighbor and pass on to me.
Er...I'm not sure I would admit that in public if I were you.
   1625. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5673610)
--No social media profiles (except one on LinkedIn that I was forced to set up during law school but haven't checked in more than 3 years)
--Haven't played video games since, let's see...Super Nintendo
--Can't stand club music, dance pop, EDM, most mainstream hip-hop, Ed Sheeran - basically anything you hear on a "Hot Hits" radio station
--Don't see the point of superhero/comic book movies at all and haven't seen one since, I think, the Dark Knight (unless you count Star Wars?)
--Also don't get into long-form episodic dramas on TV, so haven't seen a minute of any of them (Sopranos, Lost, 24, Breaking Bad, the Wire, GoT, House of Cards, literally any of them)
--Don't like football at all


-- Linked in only. But I use it every month or two. [0.75 points]
-- Play video games like Total War, and the Paradox games. Only historical type war games. [0.25 points]
-- Agree 100% on the first 4, but I'm OK with pop-rock like Sheeran or Taylor Swift. [0.75 points]
-- 100% agree. I've never read a comic book in my life, and haven't seen a superhero movie since the Batman with Danny Devito as Penguin. [1 point]
-- Watched the Sopranos, none of the others. [0.75 points]
-- Don't watch anymore unless the Giants are very good. Haven't watched a Super Bowl since they were in it. [0.75 points]

So, by my reckoning, that's 4.25 out of 6 on the ElRoy Face curmudgeon scale.
   1626. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5673620)
So, by my reckoning, that's 4.25 out of 6 on the ElRoy Face curmudgeon scale.
So I guess that makes me what, about the 30th greatest monster?
   1627. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5673621)
So I guess that makes me what, about the 30th greatest monster?

I don't know. I get a lot of my monstrousness from other areas. I'm not willing to concede you any more than a tie.
   1628. Srul Itza Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5673625)
"Huddie Ledbetter: Zombie Hunter" screenplay. Great science, great music.


Everything involving zombies is stupid.

Anyone who enjoys zombie movies/fiction is stupid.
   1629. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5673627)
Anyone who enjoys zombie movies/fiction is stupid.


Anyone who says that is stupid.
   1630. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5673630)
I get a lot of my monstrousness from other areas.
One of these days you'll wake up and realize you're not really a Republican. One of these days.
   1631. Srul Itza Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5673632)
Have Facebook and Linked-in, occasionally post on the former.
Never played video games, except pong when it first came out and asteroids (on a mainframe at MIT)t
I list to mostly classic rock and such
Seen all of the Marvel movies; former comic book collector.
Watch way too much TV. Have given up on Arrow and Legends.
Used to follow all sports very closely, now not so much. Don't even follow baseball like I did in late 90's-2000's when I first got into the Neyer Board and then this site.
   1632. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5673633)
One of these days you'll wake up and realize you're not really a Republican. One of these days.

I don't vote for Republicans, I vote against Democrats. If there was a Alfred Smith/Harry Truman Democrat running, I'd vote for him. But, let's not get OTP.
   1633. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5673635)
-- LinkedIn only, but I don't use it now that I've been employed for almost 5 years since signing up, and I have an old Twitter account I created 7 years ago because it was something to do. I haven't used it or looked at it in about 5 years. I've never been on Facebook in any way, or created/used Instagram/Snapchat/Pintrest/whatever 0.5 points
-- Play lots of PC games (FPS/Battle Royale, single player RPG, card games, etc), but I don't own any consoles. I don't play any mobile games except a single-player boggle-type game. 0 points
-- I haven't listened to a modern music station for more than 5 minutes in the past 10 years. Everything I listen to is 70s/80s/90s on various SiriusXM stations or my own collection. 1 point
-- Big comic book movie fan, but mostly Marvel. 0 points
-- Watched Sopranos, Lost, and The Wire. Never watched GoT, House of Cards, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, or pretty much all the other long form dramas. 0.5 points
-- I haven't watched a full NFL game since the Buffalo Bills were relevant (20+ years), and used to go to one game a year with my dad. I watch maybe 50% of the action during the Super Bowls. 0.75 points

2.75 out of 6

I guess I'm not as curmudgeonly as I thought.

(Side note: Never watched or read a single part of the Harry Potter series. That should count for something.)
   1634. BDC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5673636)
Anyone who enjoys zombie movies/fiction is stupid

I am such a snob that I won't even listen to NPR, but it doesn't occur to me to think of cultural tastes as stupid. There are tastes I don't share, like NASCAR or Merchant/Ivory movies, and those that others don't share with me, like Proust or the Three Stooges. But I don't know that stupidity or intelligence has much to do with them.
   1635. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5673639)
(Side note: Never watched or read a single part of the Harry Potter series. That should count for something.)


What's Harry Potter?

(Joking. But yeah, me neither.)
   1636. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5673641)
What's Harry Potter?

(Joking. But yeah, me neither.)


I third that.
   1637. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5673643)
it doesn't occur to me to think of cultural tastes as stupid. There are tastes I don't share, like NASCAR or Merchant/Ivory movies, and those that others don't share with me, like Proust or the Three Stooges. But I don't know that stupidity or intelligence has much to do with them.
Oh, come on. You're being far too kind/relativist/postmodern/dare I say it, PC. Maybe it doesn't correlate all that well with sheer raw brainpower, but there is a major correlation between one's tastes in cultural consumption and, for lack of a better description off the top of my head, how much thinking one is willing to do in life.
   1638. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:40 PM (#5673644)
(Side note: Never watched or read a single part of the Harry Potter series. That should count for something.)
Never read a word of it. Went to the first movie and fell asleep.
   1639. Lassus Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:42 PM (#5673647)
I love the Harry Potter books for two reasons:

1. Helped me through a difficult breakup dumping.
2. Rowling was a nowhere schoolteacher who induced uncounted millions of new readers and became richer than god. I read an argument somewhere where all by herself she might have actually destroyed the ebook industry. She's a great, great story.
   1640. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5673648)
Oh, come on. You're being far too kind/relativist/postmodern/dare I say it, PC. Maybe it doesn't correlate all that well with sheer raw brainpower, but there is a major correlation between one's tastes in cultural consumption and, for lack of a better description off the top of my head, how much thinking one is willing to do in life.

Eh, my father loves zombie movies. He also has a PhD in Economics, had a 45 year career in banking, is a published author (multiple times), and co-heads an Economic Institute.

There's no accounting for tastes.
   1641. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5673651)
Eh, my father loves zombie movies. He also has a PhD in Economics, had a 45 year career in banking, is a published author (multiple times), and co-heads an Economic Institute.
Well, of course there are going to be exceptions, anomalies, etc. in either direction. But there are definite patterns.
   1642. Omineca Greg Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5673658)
No social media: 1 point
Video games: I play enough, usually older ones that I already know and love: .25 points
Music: Mostly jazz, old country, pop of my youth: 1 point
Comic book movies: I've seen a few, but not many: .75 point
Long form television: A little bit, but not much: .75 point
Football I don't like: 1 point.

Totals up to 4.75. I'm taking off half a point for having actually read a Chuck Tingle book, and half a point for spending lots of time in my daughter's virtual reality set up, but then adding a quarter point for not knowing a single technical thing about her rig.

4 points.
   1643. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5673659)
"Huddie Ledbetter: Zombie Hunter" screenplay. Great science, great music.

Everything involving zombies is stupid.

Anyone who enjoys zombie movies/fiction is stupid.


1) You're stupid.

2) This is documented historical fact personally researched by me, a professional scientist, involving extensive firsthand investigation throughout Mississippi and Louisiana.

3) You're still stupid.
   1644. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5673674)
Well, of course there are going to be exceptions, anomalies, etc. in either direction. But there are definite patterns.

Sure, but as long as there are significant numbers of exceptions, you can't fairly judge people by their tastes.
   1645. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5673675)
it doesn't occur to me to think of cultural tastes as stupid. There are tastes I don't share, like NASCAR or Merchant/Ivory movies, and those that others don't share with me, like Proust or the Three Stooges. But I don't know that stupidity or intelligence has much to do with them.

Oh, come on. You're being far too kind/relativist/postmodern/dare I say it, PC. Maybe it doesn't correlate all that well with sheer raw brainpower, but there is a major correlation between one's tastes in cultural consumption and, for lack of a better description off the top of my head, how much thinking one is willing to do in life.

You need to be a lot more specific about what you're trying to get at. Most of us know a lot about some things, a bit about other things, and nothing at all about the rest. I'm not sure how one's choices sort out is much of an indication of anything, though (non-PC alert) I'd say that the more time one spends reading serious books and the less time one spends on twitter is probably a good sign.

(Exhibit A: 44 vs. 45.)

   1646. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5673677)
--Facebook and LinkedIn, low to moderate usage. I think I have a twitter account, maybe. Pinterest ... I think I have one.
--I regularly play Civ. (No suffix, the original). Otherwise not in decades.
--I am a music whore and I am not ashamed. There is stuff I don't listen to, but it is easier to list than the stuff I do listen to. I favor pop music though.
--Love genre stuff, sci fi, fantasy, comic books. I don't read comics anymore, but if I had more time I would.
--I watch too much TV, but I am not a fan of the wave of anti-hero crap. There has to be the occasional character I like or I am out after a half season or so.
--I am less into sports than I used to be, now it is more social and I watch sports with people. Currently that means I watch football, and occasionally basketball or baseball. And I read about them and listen to sports radio maybe a hour total a day.

-- Bonus: Love the Harry Potter books and have a bunch of other YA stuff and am sad my boys are out of that demographic now. Of course I am a genre book whore, also avoiding super dark stuff. I don't need to be depressed from my entertainment.

And feel free to visit my lawn and hang out there.

EDIT: Zombie movies are OK. Shaun of the Dead, 28 days later, Warm Bodies and Zombie land were all good. World War Z was OKish (never read the book).
   1647. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5673687)
You need to be a lot more specific about what you're trying to get at.
I'm trying to get at the type of person, and there are a ton of them out there, who just doesn't want to think at all. That is (almost always) very much reflected in their choice of cultural consumption, as well as in other places of course. They are the people who go for the dance/pop music with the inane lyrics, movies that are based on explosions or cheap soap opera emotion, wrestling, celebrity gossip, the Kardashians, etc. etc. People for whom mindlessness in culture has a direct *and causal* correlation to enjoyment. You know the type. I see them all the time. Obviously it's not 100% accurate, but if someone has a combination of these tastes, it's fairly safe to infer that they prefer to be mindless.
   1648. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5673691)
They are the people who go for the dance/pop music


I like dance music, specific electronic dance music. I met my wife at a club on South Beach.

wrestling


I used to watch wrestling back when it was real.

I also love opera, surely that balances the scales somewhat!
   1649. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5673695)
I met my wife at a club on South Beach.
If you can pick up a woman at a club on South Beach, you're far cooler than I have ever been.
   1650. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5673698)
You need to be a lot more specific about what you're trying to get at.

I'm trying to get at the type of person, and there are a ton of them out there, who just doesn't want to think at all. That is (almost always) very much reflected in their choice of cultural consumption, as well as in other places of course. They are the people who go for the dance/pop music with the inane lyrics, movies that are based on explosions or cheap soap opera emotion, wrestling, celebrity gossip, the Kardashians, etc. etc. People for whom mindlessness in culture has a direct *and causal* correlation to enjoyment. You know the type. I see them all the time. Obviously it's not 100% accurate, but if someone has a combination of these tastes, it's fairly safe to infer that they prefer to be mindless.


Okay, I can't say I disagree with any of that, though when you can get them to talk about their own life experiences they can often be quite thoughtful. A lot of times it's just a case of being brought up in a low information environment and then going the easy way as adolescents and falling in with the lowest common denominator crowd. I wouldn't give up on them until they start voting for Trump. (/smile)
   1651. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5673701)
Oh my... am I hipster doofus?

--No social media profiles (except one on LinkedIn that I was forced to set up during law school but haven't checked in more than 3 years)


On LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Pinterest. I pretty much just accept invites on LinkedIn, mostly just scroll recents on FB, on Instagram solely because some family I interact a lot with post things there, have tweeted more of late (and follow a fair bit), and don't really use Pinterest much. Not sure how many points I get for that.

--Haven't played video games since, let's see...Super Nintendo


Big-time - though, I despise consoles so maybe I get a break? I play a LOT of OOTP, Civilization, and various Paradox titles. Strictly a PC gamer, almost entirely strategy/4X and sports titles. I also mod (so maybe that makes up for my lack of console play?)

--Can't stand club music, dance pop, EDM, most mainstream hip-hop, Ed Sheeran - basically anything you hear on a "Hot Hits" radio station


Mostly an indie rock/indie pop guy... but - a fair bit of hip-hop. Club/Dance/etc - not a big fan, but fairly versed in at least crossover tracks.

--Don't see the point of superhero/comic book movies at all and haven't seen one since, I think, the Dark Knight (unless you count Star Wars?)


Ah-ha! I completely concur on superhero/comic book movies. No use for 'em. However... I do have a weakness for scifi - though, I'm not a big cinema goer - so I usually wait for cable/OnDemand.

--Also don't get into long-form episodic dramas on TV, so haven't seen a minute of any of them (Sopranos, Lost, 24, Breaking Bad, the Wire, GoT, House of Cards, literally any of them)


All of 'em. Not just all of 'em - but if there's nothing new/currently airing, I'll fill background noise re-binging ones I've already seen. Except 24... never liked 24.

--Don't like football at all


Hardcore NCAA fan... but NFL is solely a fantasy team app check thing. In any given season - my knowledge of the NFL is limited to my team, the waiver wire, and continues only so long as I'm in the running to win the pot. This past year, I started 0-5, so I couldn't even tell you who made the playoffs and only vaguely recall the Eagles (?) won the superbowl.
   1652. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5673702)
I'm trying to get at the type of person, and there are a ton of them out there, who just doesn't want to think at all. That is (almost always) very much reflected in their choice of cultural consumption, as well as in other places of course. They are the people who go for the dance/pop music with the inane lyrics, movies that are based on explosions or cheap soap opera emotion, wrestling, celebrity gossip, the Kardashians, etc. etc. People for whom mindlessness in culture has a direct *and causal* correlation to enjoyment. You know the type. I see them all the time. Obviously it's not 100% inaccurate, but if someone has a combination of these tastes, it's fairly safe to infer that they prefer to be mindless.


I think I know what you're describing. However, it's probably worth pointing out that no one on this website is going to fall into this category. Everyone here is passionate about something. If you go out of your way to join a website devoted to baseball and enjoy discussing baseball history and baseball statistics, then you've already eliminated yourself from this category.

People might make fun of someone here for liking the "wrong" type of music or movies or TV shows, etc. That's usually because that person isn't passionate or has unusual tastes in the subject at hand.

There are people, though, that put almost no thought into any of their hobbies or interests. They can be dumb or smart, but they almost always come across as lazy or apathetic. They listen to "everything," which means they're passionate about nothing. They watch TV but can never describe a favorite. They don't read. They might watch sports to socialize. They don't have favorites or preferences. They're not out of touch with long form TV dramas or the latest St. Vincent release because they spend their free time reading histories of WWII or watching classic film noir. They're out of touch with long form TV dramas or the latest St. Vincent release because they watch Keeping Up With the Kardashians, listen exclusively to top 40 (and only when in the car), and scroll through Twitter/Instagram for celebrity news. Their passions aren't outdated or curmudgeonly or basic, because they have no passions in the first place.
   1653. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5673705)
However, it's probably worth pointing out that no one on this website is going to fall into this category. Everyone here is passionate about something.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. The type of person I'm describing would never in a million years come to a website like this.

EDIT: And well put in your whole post. Their "passion," such as it is, is avoiding the work of thinking and discerning.
   1654. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5673706)
I'm trying to get at the type of person, and there are a ton of them out there, who just doesn't want to think at all. That is (almost always) very much reflected in their choice of cultural consumption, as well as in other places of course. They are the people who go for the dance/pop music with the inane lyrics, movies that are based on explosions or cheap soap opera emotion, wrestling, celebrity gossip, the Kardashians, etc. etc. People for whom mindlessness in culture has a direct *and causal* correlation to enjoyment. You know the type. I see them all the time. Obviously it's not 100% accurate, but if someone has a combination of these tastes, it's fairly safe to infer that they prefer to be mindless.


You are close, but have a slightly wrong angle on it. I think you can tell how "intellectual" a person is by their conversation much more than their entertainment consumption.

Talk about people, events, or ideas - that is the ramp of intelligence, where the more intelligent (intellectually curious) you are the less you talk about people and the more about ideas. However, I don't think that relates that closely to music choice or love of zombie movies or whatever.
   1655. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5673708)
I met my wife at a club on South Beach.

If you can pick up a woman at a club on South Beach, you're far cooler than I have ever been.


She picked me up. She's the cool one, she was friends with Marilyn Manson when we met, he used to leave weird messages on her answering machine. She also threatened to punch a guy "in the ####### jaw" if he touched her again the night we met, so I fell in love pretty quickly.
   1656. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5673710)
Talk about people, events, or ideas - that is the ramp of intelligence, where the more intelligent (intellectually curious) you are the less you talk about people and the more about ideas. However, I don't think that relates that closely to music choice or love of zombie movies or whatever.
I disagree. Let's say we meet someone whose only cultural interest/consumption is, for example, celebrity gossip blogs, the music she hears when she goes to clubs on the weekends and on top hits radio, and The Bachelor. You think this person is likely to have interesting, insightful thoughts about people, events or ideas?
   1657. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5673711)
She picked me up.
If you can get picked up by a woman at a club on South Beach, I might have to reconsider my position on the Budshovik Conspiracy.
   1658. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5673720)
I disagree. Let's say we meet someone whose only cultural interest/consumption is, for example, celebrity gossip blogs, the music she hears when she goes to clubs on the weekends and on top hits radio, and The Bachelor. You think this person is likely to have interesting, insightful thoughts about people, events or ideas?


Yes. You are stacking the deck with such things as "only cultural interest/consumption", instead of saying their main such consumption, but yes I do. If her job is chief economist for the Chicago Federal Reserve or she is a Physicist specializing in Dark Matter and her cultural consumption is frivolous because that is how she relaxes she could very much have many interesting things to say on many subjects of interest to me.

The key was mentioned up thread, people who are passionate are interesting. I have zero interest in (for example) car engines or for that matter cars. But I have had several discussions with motor heads that I found fascinating, because they were passionate and informed on their subject area. On the other hand I have met people who watched all the cool edgy shows and other such cultural consumption and their conversations were incredibly shallow. All "so and so did this and such and such responded, and did you hear about when someone else did something else?"

Now, is there a correlation? Sure. LCD content attracts more LCD type minds. But it is not exclusive and as snapper suggested is a poor way to judge people IMO.
   1659. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5673722)
World War Z was OKish (never read the book).


I highly recommend doing so. Zombie fiction per se doesn't do much for me, my love for the film subgenre aside, but this was a notable exception.
   1660. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:39 PM (#5673727)
--Only social media platform I use is Facebook, but I post several times a day and I am an administrator for several groups about aviation history.
--Don't play video games at all.
--Don't listen to club music, dance pop, EDM, hip-hop, or Ed Sheeran. Do listen to a lot of J-rock and a little J-pop.
--Never seen a Marvel movie. Did see "Wonder Woman" and two of the recent "Star Wars" movies.
--Never seen Sopranos, Lost, 24, Breaking Bad, the Wire, GoT, House of Cards, etc. Do watch "Doctor Who" and "Sherlock", and have watched about 200 anime series in the last few years.
--Don't follow football, but follow soccer and Formula One motor racing very closely. (And baseball, of course).
   1661. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5673728)
LCD content attracts more LCD type minds.


Reminding me that while I'm not a huge fan, LCD Soundsystem are an exception (& hardly the only one) to my vintage postpunk preference stated above.

Though hell, they go back ... what ... more than 15 years.
   1662. Graham & the 15-win "ARod Vortex of suck" Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5673732)
Talk about people, events, or ideas - that is the ramp of intelligence, where the more intelligent (intellectually curious) you are the less you talk about people and the more about ideas. However, I don't think that relates that closely to music choice or love of zombie movies or whatever.


This is a handy rule of thumb, but not infallible. It works when Person A is gossiping about Justin and Samantha's office romance and Person B is discussing the advantages of free trade agreements. It fails when Person C is conversing about the latest biography on Walter Mondale and Person D is brainstorming ideas to attract more followers to his Instagram page.
   1663. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5673733)
If her job is chief economist for the Chicago Federal Reserve or she is a Physicist specializing in Dark Matter
...I just about guarantee you she's not just (or even mostly) watching the Kardashians and reading celebrity gossip blogs.
   1664. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5673734)
I disagree. Let's say we meet someone whose only cultural interest/consumption is, for example, celebrity gossip blogs, the music she hears when she goes to clubs on the weekends and listens to top hits radio, and The Bachelor. You think this person is likely to have interesting, insightful thoughts about people, events or ideas?


It's hard to ever know someone enough to prescribe "only", though...

I dated a girl some years back who rabidly followed Perez Hilton on social media, forced me to watch The Bachelor, and when she got her way on bog standard weekends - forced me to places with pulsating dance music where every song seemed to be "her favorite".

She was also an art history major at a fairly prestigious college, had a JD and worked as counsel for a Nfp, and for special occasions - preferred I got opera tickets (in fact, the only three operas I ever attended were with her).

I always suspected that some of the former were more sort 'street cred' defense mechanisms of a sort... but then - while I'd certainly to defer to Shredder, Sam, or maybe Gef on what's new and interesting on the fringe music scene, I like to think I'm not too far out of the loop (I'm going to see Charly Bliss tomorrow... does that count for something?), I can also crapfest tired radio standards from 10-20-30 years ago with the best of them.
   1665. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5673735)
I have zero interest in (for example) car engines or for that matter cars. But I have had several discussions with motor heads that I found fascinating, because they were passionate and informed on their subject area. On the other hand I have met people who watched all the cool edgy shows and other such cultural consumption and their conversations were incredibly shallow.
Sure, but the existence of counterexamples doesn't rebut that there is a pattern or trend.
   1666. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5673739)
Well, now I have to rate myself in Elroy Faces like all the cool kids.

1) .25
2) 0
3) .25 (maybe .5, but I did go see Lady Gaga last year and have tickets to see Beyoncé and Jay-Z this August)
4) 0
5) 0
6) 0

.5! I am in the throbbing heart of the cultural moment. Bow before me, nerds!
   1667. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5673743)
I'd certainly to defer to Shredder, Sam, or maybe Gef on what's new and interesting on the fringe music scene, I like to think I'm not too far out of the loop (I'm going to see Charly Bliss tomorrow... does that count for something?),


You can excise me from your list, since I've never heard of Charly Bliss till this moment.
   1668. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5673744)
You can excise me from your list, since I've never heard of Charly Bliss till this moment.


You're more punk, no?

   1669. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5673747)
You're more punk, no?

Punk is like my generation? Is it "hip" again?
   1670. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5673749)
If her job is chief economist for the Chicago Federal Reserve or she is a Physicist specializing in Dark Matter

...I just about guarantee you she's not just watching the Kardashians and reading celebrity gossip blogs.


Odds are, but I have a friend who is a neurosurgeon and quotes The Simpsons all the time, which some people would consider to be pretty lowbrow. Makes OR time really fly by. He's American-born of Indian descent, we're working together again next month and I want to get his opinion on "The Problem With Apu".
   1671. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5673758)

You're more punk, no?


To a considerable extent, but I fall more on the postpunk side of things -- think Wire, Gang of Four, The Fall.
   1672. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:10 PM (#5673760)
...I just about guarantee you she's not just (or even mostly) watching the Kardashians and reading celebrity gossip blogs.


So you have constructed a tautology where people who like X are shallow, because people who like X are shallow.

Sure, but the existence of counterexamples doesn't rebut that there is a pattern or trend.


Except I agree there is a correlation. I just don't think it strong enough to use for any real purpose. I find if I talk to people, engage with them and see what they are passionate about I can tell pretty quickly if they are my cup of tea or not. And even when not I keep an open mind, because I have several close friends who on the exterior - based on their jobs, appearance, social media and such shouldn't be friends with me at all.

I find that people are incredibly complex critters, way more complex and interesting than any set of rules designed to categorize them actually. Note, however, that complex and interesting does not mean I want to indiscriminately spend my valuable time with them.
   1673. McCoy Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5673761)
He's completely right that Wakanda has had the ability to help others for centuries, but failed to do so even as Africa and Africans were colonized and sent to America to labor in chattel slavery. He's 100% wrong about the solution being armed revolution and payback against the power structures that enforced and profited from that system. I think it's telling that his dad was a black nationalist in America. And given that his critique of Wakanda's isolationism is correct, it's disappointing to see that he can't get beyond his desire for revenge on the western world. It's what makes him a villain, and he only realizes it when he's mortally wounded. Also, he has one of the best last lines in any movie, superhero or otherwise

I've heard this argument but now that I've seen the movie I have to say so what? Why does it matter that he thinks Wakanda closed itself off? Hell, half the villains in movies have at the climax of the movie a speech about how the world is a shvt place and they are their to cleanse it. How is Killmonger any different? Nor did I see any real redemption from Killmonger as he died. He basically realized the sunset is Wakanda is beautiful and that he never really stopped to smell the roses but that at the end of the day he was still himself. Then he pulled the spear out.

I don't find Nicholson or Ledger's Jokers to be all that complex. They're both a great deal of fun, but I don't see much depth to them beyond "look at me I'm so crazy and unpredictable and maybe I have a plan or maybe I'm just having a joke." I really enjoyed both performances, and they absolutely improve the movies they're in, but I just don't see the complexity of a Killmonger or Captain Zemo in them.

I don't think it is a matter of complexity but of having a interesting villain that can stand on his/her own two feet instead of solely being a character arc device for the hero. Killmonger is basically a nonentity of up until the close of the second act of the movie. He's basically a henchman that does little and means little up until the movie elevates him to move the plot forward. In terms of this movies he's nothing more than a fancy ticking time bomb in that throughout the first act of the movie they are setting up that the sins of the father are going to explode on the son and then tick, tick, tick. . .BOOM that happens. We see so little of his villainy and really only get told of it by him or Dr Watson/Plot Device. It's a movie not a book. There should have been more showing and not telling. AT the end of the day there is virtually nothing memorable that happened on screen in regards to Killmonger. There is no scene that really stands out that makes you go wow or what I just saw was interesting. Take for example Michael Keaton in the latest Spiderman. There were several scenes in the movie that stand out for that character that aren't the final battle scene with Spiderman. He's doing thing, he's interacting with characters and they are memorable scenes. They aren't just required scenes to move the story to the next point.
   1674. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5673767)
I usually pronounce the "t" in "often" as well.


The t was added by language "authorities" (I believe in the 18th century? somebody else can correct me) who wanted English to be more like Latin. Also added the t to debt. In neither case did they want/expect it to be pronounced. Kind of a dumb idea, I'd say.

I have accounts on Facebook and LinkedIn, though I almost never look at either one (well, there is this one girl whose posts I look at occasionally...shhh!!). And a year or so ago I used LinkedIn to connect with one of the London-based consultants I'd worked with, who had just kind of disappeared right before I retired. Hoping maybe we can get together next time he comes over this way.

Gave up trying to keep up with music decades ago.

Not a fan of comic-book movies. Think the last one I saw in the theatre might've been Iron Man. Do like sci-fi though.

Don't know that I've ever played many genuine video games...some computer games, Lords of the Realm and LotR II, Warcraft II, but haven't played either in years.

My wife and I usually watch one episode of a TV show per night. Currently, season 2 of Occupied. I much prefer shows with long, multi-episode (and multi-season) arcs to the kind of "every week we do an entirely new episode which is completely unrelated to anything that we've ever done before or will ever do again" show that I grew up with.

I am old and unhip, yes. I will note, however (and quite smugly at that!), that my older son told us that when he was in high school, his friends considered him to be the one with the Cool Parents. So I'm resting on my laurels.

Not the most comfortable place to rest, but better than not resting at all.

   1675. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5673770)
So you have constructed a tautology where people who like X are shallow, because people who like X are shallow.
Not at all. I'm saying that if you don't consume much but shallow things, it's a pretty reliable indicator that you're shallow. The converse of that is that people who aren't shallow don't tend to consume a lot of shallow culture.
   1676. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5673772)
Also added the t to debt. In neither case did they want/expect it to be pronounced. Kind of a dumb idea, I'd say.


So ... "debt" was supposed to be pronounced, what, "deb"? That seems odd.
   1677. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5673774)
Not at all. I'm saying that if you don't consume much but shallow things, it's a pretty reliable indicator that you're shallow. The converse of that is that people who aren't shallow don't tend to consume a lot of shallow culture.

I agree that if all you consume is shallow crap, you're probably shallow. But, lots of non-shallow people consume significant amounts of shallow crap.
   1678. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5673775)
Odds are, but I have a friend who is a neurosurgeon and quotes The Simpsons all the time, which some people would consider to be pretty lowbrow.


I think that depends on whether the Simpsons quotes reference the time period where Pablo Neruda references were dropped, or, they reference the time period where celebrity of the moment guess shots as themselves.

He's American-born of Indian descent, we're working together again next month and I want to get his opinion on "The Problem With Apu".


Ironically enough, I had this very conversation with a friend who was naturalized when he was very young - we used to watch the Simpsons together in college...

His opinion actually tracked to the same one I stated (it's been on for 30 years... of course, cultural mores change and The Simpsons is just caught up in the fact that it belongs to multiple generations) -

Namely that -

Yeah, it did bother him a bit... He also cited the latter-day breakpoints I did - i.e., when Apu transitioned from being a background story whose culture and/or accent WAS the joke whenever he made an appearance vs. when Apu had non-cultural storylines. I swear on a stack of bibles - I made the Squishee lady reference I did some pages back BEFORE this conversation, but he cited the same key break point. He also said I really needed to get a life and/or probably work harder when I got all excited and said I made the same argument, citing the same episode, on a message board I frequent, but that's neither here nor there (do I get any +/- curmudgeon/hipster/Face points for that?)

He dosen't have an accent (he was naturalized when he was three), but his parents do - he saw the accent as less of a big deal (Apu was, after all, a student immigrant one might expect to have a different diction) than the fact that almost until the squishee lady, Apu jokes and storylines were solely about convenience store work, Vishnu-this and Vishnu-that, and various caste/arranged marriage/etc one-offs.

In effect - he's glad that culture has shifted such that his kids don't need to bother with a caricature essentially being a background character for one-off jokes on whatever pop culture TV phenomenon is popular when they're in HS, watching in a parent's basement or nursing a Sunday hangover in college... but neither does he think 90s era Simpsons should be expunged or retired.

Of course, his opinion on such matters is suspect; not only does put Mr. Plow in top 5 episodes (come on, maybe it makes the team photo for top 10), he thinks Itchy & Scratchy Land ranks higher than Home the Great from season 6. And really...
   1679. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5673776)
lots of non-shallow people consume significant amounts of shallow crap.
Obviously there's a lot of imprecision when we're talking about "lots" and "much." I'm just saying the correlation works pretty well as you approach the far end of the "percentage of cultural consumption is crap" continuum.
   1680. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:35 PM (#5673782)
lots of non-shallow people consume significant amounts of shallow crap.


My last gf loved reality TV. I cannot fathom how anyone with a functioning brain (which she definitely had, & has) can abide that garbage for a single second. So it goes.

Well, except for Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, which I watched. *sigh*
   1681. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5673783)
My last gf loved reality TV. I cannot fathom how anyone with a functioning brain (which she definitely had, & has) can abide that garbage for a single second. So it goes.
My (now) wife refuses to loathe Sex and the City and Grey's Anatomy. It bugs me more than it probably should. She's insulting her own (considerable) intelligence.
   1682. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5673786)
My (now) wife refuses to loathe Sex and the City and Grey's Anatomy. It bugs me more than it probably should. She's insulting her own (considerable) intelligence.


The ex in question also loved Sex & the City. My first wife, who was an English TA in grad school & is now a city manager, read Harlequin Romances like they were going out of style.

Mind candy, I suppose.
   1683. BDC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5673787)
When it comes to tastes, I'm interested in independence as much as intelligence. I've met PhDs who are very concerned to like what tastemakers like. I've met factory workers who have independent tastes in music shaped by long years of involvement. (Of course, intelligence may not correlate strongly with highest education attained, at times, either.)

It's really hard to be secure in what you like or don't – not least because there's a strong social angle to enjoyment. Intelligence may interfere. Some people think a lot about what they experience, and expect it to meet formal intellectual criteria before enjoying it. But there's a visceral quality to film, music, even art and poetry, that escapes the intellect.

I heard an undergraduate presentation recently that invoked Jackson Pollock, poking fun at the idea that Pollock's paintings showed significant meaning that critics can decode. This is a commonplace when joking about pretentious critics. But frankly, there is no meaning there in the propositional sense. You either appreciate the painting as a sensory assault or you don't; meaning is largely imported. (The same can be true of pop music or zombie movies.) Intelligence doesn't factor in when you look directly at the work; though it certainly might when you're relating to it socially.

More thoughts via the work of Dan Fox on pretentiousness.
   1684. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:41 PM (#5673788)
Punk is like my generation? Is it "hip" again?


It's complicated :-)

To a considerable extent, but I fall more on the postpunk side of things -- think Wire, Gang of Four, The Fall.


Ah, yes -

OK, I find the occasional music segues here are an excellent place to discover bands and music I don't know well enough to even start. You and Omineca Greg were recent additions to my watch list.... you get a free T-shirt, secret decoder ring, and Official Zonk Music Library Sponsor card for that.
   1685. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5673790)
You and Omineca Greg were recent additions to my watch list


I am flattered & will attempt to step up my game. (I'm bad about going for weeks without listening to a single note, other than occasional more or less random YouTube videos.)
   1686. BDC Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5673792)
Shorter #1683: social class has a lot to do with taste :-D
   1687. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 16, 2018 at 05:48 PM (#5673795)
Oops, my 1674 contained a stupid. The b was added to det, to align it with the Latin debitum. Sorry.

But everything else I've ever said is...possibly not incorrect.
   1688. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5673826)
It's complicated :-)

OK, cause I was listening to the Ramones and the Clash the other night, but I might have to stop if that makes me "hip".
   1689. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5673829)
I think that depends on whether the Simpsons quotes reference the time period where Pablo Neruda references were dropped, or, they reference the time period where celebrity of the moment guess shots as themselves


He’s a “first ten seasons” guy like me as far as I can tell. That Pablo Neruda episode is my favorite of all-time by the way (“Bart Sells His Soul”), everything about that episode worked, even the secondary plot with Uncle Moe’s Family Feedbag. “I’ll tell ya what you can do with your freakin’ sodie too!”
   1690. Zonk is a Doppleclapper Posted: May 16, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5673836)
He’s a “first ten seasons” guy like me as far as I can tell. That Pablo Neruda episode is my favorite of all-time by the way (“Bart Sells His Soul”), everything about that episode worked, even the secondary plot with Uncle Moe’s Family Feedbag. “I’ll tell ya what you can do with your freakin’ sodie too!”


See, I think "first ten seasons people" are too 'cliff-like' in their thinking. The decline was steep - and has continued into negative territory the last 5 seasons or so - but season 11 has some good episodes, albeit the best probably making it into only the top 20. Season 12 is non-terrible. Season 13 is occasionally watchable. Thereafter, it's pretty much one-off episodes/3-story vignettes/time travel/occasional Halloweens - plus the reimaged movies (The Debarted is OK)... so the fall is certainly exponential, not geometric.

   1691. Baldrick Posted: May 16, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5673837)
I'm far more inclined to think negatively of someone who insists that 'shallow vs. complex' is an Important and Real distinction than I am to think negatively of someone who enjoys consuming 'shallow' cultural products.

Which is not to deny that there's any meaning to the distinction. There clearly is, and for my own self-reflection - when pondering how and why I enjoy one thing or another - it's certainly one spectrum that helps to guide the conversation. But when 'shallow' is wielded as a cudgel, it's almost always to the detriment of understanding.
   1692. PreservedFish Posted: May 16, 2018 at 07:32 PM (#5673839)
See, I think "first ten seasons people" are too 'cliff-like' in their thinking. The decline was steep - and has continued into negative territory the last 5 seasons or so - but season 11 has some good episodes, albeit the best probably making it into only the top 20. Season 12 is non-terrible. Season 13 is occasionally watchable. Thereafter, it's pretty much one-off episodes/3-story vignettes/time travel/occasional Halloweens - plus the reimaged movies (The Debarted is OK)... so the fall is certainly exponential, not geometric.


I can't even evaluate this because I hit eject, hard, somewhere in late Season 11. I think I probably tuned in every once in a while after that just to see if things had improved. But "cliff-like" is absolutely appropriate. In 2 years it went from the most important cultural product in my life to something I didn't care about.
   1693. PreservedFish Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5673877)
Interesting to see the debate on shallow/complex because I feel like, on this website, the talk is more often about three poles, plebian/middlebrow/quality, with middlebrow the worst of the three categories.

It's partially a class thing (cultural if not economic). If you're upper crust the worry is not that you are mistaken for an Average Joe, but rather that you get mistaken for a middle class striver. I dislike the word middlebrow because it's so unbelievably condescending, and I think its use usually evinces an unattractive anxiety - what better way to distinguish yourself as an incisive critical voice than snarkily dismissing some celebrated author?

But I fall into that thinking myself sometimes - say, I'm happy to watch Yasujiro Ozu and I'm happy to watch Fast & Furious 7 but no thanks to The King's Speech.
   1694. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5673890)
Interesting to see the debate on shallow/complex because I feel like, on this website, the talk is more often about three poles, plebian/middlebrow/quality, with middlebrow the worst of the three categories.

It's partially a class thing (cultural if not economic). If you're upper crust the worry is not that you are mistaken for an Average Joe, but rather that you get mistaken for a middle class striver. I dislike the word middlebrow because it's so unbelievably condescending, and I think its use usually evinces an unattractive anxiety - what better way to distinguish yourself as an incisive critical voice than snarkily dismissing some celebrated author?

But I fall into that thinking myself sometimes - say, I'm happy to watch Yasujiro Ozu and I'm happy to watch Fast & Furious 7 but no thanks to The King's Speech.


I'd say I'm proudly middlebrow. I like murder mysteries and military history. I hate literary fiction. I like Bourbon, and can't tell the difference between a $15 bottle of win, and a $1500 bottle. I watch baseball, and procedurals, and skip all the "prestige TV".

And I would definitely watch the King Speech (I did), and not either of those other two.
   1695. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:39 PM (#5673895)
I think this high brow person low brow TV can be understood. My wife is an anesthesiologist and consumes nothing but utter garbage, imo, on TV. Real house wives, sister wives, 600lbs. and...whatever it's called. Sap lifetime movies, etc. It's catnip. She hits a wall in the evening, doesn't want to talk household business and just wants the couch and her other world. She's also my perfect litmus test on whether such and such scandal in DC has reached the public at large. 'Hey, scooter libby.' Her: 'what?' 'Begahzi. Cohen, blumenthal....' crickets.

There are zillions of people who operate like this. Super high achievers without, not curiosity necessarily, but any bandwidth in their lives for what others may consider substance.
   1696. PreservedFish Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5673897)
Also I think that "shallow/complex" is probably a poor way of capturing the differences between high and low quality arts. Good art can be intentionally shallow, even gleefully so.
   1697. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5673898)
And I would definitely watch the King Speech (I did), and not either of those other two.


You wouldn't watch the movie that was voted the best movie of all time in the 2012 Sight & Sound poll?
   1698. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5673899)
You wouldn't watch the movie that was voted the best movie of all time in the 2012 Sight & Sound poll?

What movie was that? Citizen Kane? Didn't like it.
   1699. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5673901)
What movie was that? Citizen Kane? Didn't like it.


Tokyo Story.
   1700. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 16, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5673905)

Tokyo Story.


Based on the Wiki description, no, I wouldn't see it. Sounds depressing, and uninteresting.
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