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Saturday, April 21, 2018

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (April - June 2018)

The following is previously unseen rehearsal footage of Prince & The Revolution from the summer of 1984.

It was in this very room at Flying Cloud Drive Warehouse in Eden Prairie, Minnesota that Prince created and committed to tape one of his most beloved and iconic compositions, which six years later would become a worldwide hit for Sinead O’Connor.

Prince’s original studio version of ‘Nothing Compares 2 U’ is presented here for the first time.

Trial to see if there’s sufficient support to make this a thing.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: April 21, 2018 at 02:32 PM | 3812 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   3401. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:10 PM (#5691341)
Actually, Modernist Cuisine proved that flipping the steak frequently is actually better! Here's my boy Kenji on the subject.

Marginally and under the right circumstances. Circumstances a home cook doesn't frequently find themselves in.

I am also not a cook, but The Silver Palete Cookbook and anything else by the same authors has been great for real amateurs like myself.

I thought you were talking about the The Silver Spoon cookbook which is kind of the Joy of Cooking for Italy and is quite good as well.
   3402. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5691343)
Given a choice I will never order a filet. Going to Japan has spoiled a lot of foods for me. I’m not sure the next time I would order a steak in a restaurant and there are entirely too many mediocre steakhouses. I have eaten western-style rolls but I can’t bring myself to eat sashimi or nigiri.

I think I’ve eaten at Olive Garden three times in my life - amazingly I’ve eaten at the one in Times Square (it is a friend’s favorite restaurant - his wife is perpetually embarrassed). The thing is, when I drive by the local Olive Garden Friday or Saturday night there are people waiting outside the door. There are so many Italian restaurants in northern nj, granted too many are mediocre, that are just better than Olive Garden. I can’t imagine all those people eating in there have little kids.

As for vegetarians, luckily I don’t know many. A couple friends became vegetarian in their teens to early 20s but are back to full meat eaters. I do know a handful of south Asians who are vegetarians. They basically don’t eat out.
   3403. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5691344)
This is Kenji on steak. Honestly, I think this is superior to any published book I've ever seen. He asks the right questions, he provides the right detail, and it's illustrated with the perfect photographs.

> resubmitted after the flip
   3404. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5691346)
The Silver Spoon cookbook which is kind of the Joy of Cooking for Italy and is quite good as well

I love this book. Highly recommended.
   3405. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:16 PM (#5691351)
How do you cook broccoli? Do you boil it? Steam it? Stop. Cover it with olive oil and salt - like, way, way more than you think is appropriate - put it in a 500 degree oven. That's how you should cook it.
"But you lose all the nutrients that way!!" [/DietScolds]

Can't stand those people who keep banging on about "your protein should be the size of a deck of cards" and that you shouldn't cook vegetables in any way that makes them taste good.
   3406. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5691352)
There are so many Italian restaurants in northern nj central NY, granted too many all of them are mediocre
Yes.


The Silver Spoon cookbook
I love this book. Highly recommended.


That looks frighteningly similar in girth to our favorite oft-discussed Nordic cuisine tome. Hopefully it's a bit more accessible.
   3407. Baldrick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:18 PM (#5691353)
I'm someone with no formal culinary training. I love cooking and trying new things in the kitchen, though I'm not operating under the delusion that my food is good or even adequate at times. What is a good cookbook that would help me improve, but also wouldn't be over my head? I'm familiar with Jacques Pepin, but that type of food would be over my head. What are the things I can do to make better food for my girlfriend and me? How can I make better food for guests? I'm not expecting people to come over and have the best meal of their lives. I just want people to think they're going to get something better than burgers or takeout when they're hanging out at our place.

Mark Bittman's How to Cook Everything. Lots of straight recipes and tons of recommendations about how to develop or reshape dishes.
As for vegetarians, luckily I don’t know many.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. What exactly is the point of this comment?
   3408. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5691355)
I think I’ve eaten at Olive Garden three times in my life - amazingly I’ve eaten at the one in Times Square (it is a friend’s favorite restaurant - his wife is perpetually embarrassed). The thing is, when I drive by the local Olive Garden Friday or Saturday night there are people waiting outside the door. There are so many Italian restaurants in northern nj, granted too many are mediocre, that are just better than Olive Garden. I can’t imagine all those people eating in there have little kids.


You can sell carbs and refined grains in every corner of America, mediocre or otherwise. If you give them away in unlimited quantities as Olive Garden likes to do you'll find a waiting line in every corner.

As for vegetarians, luckily I don’t know many. A couple friends became vegetarian in their teens to early 20s but are back to full meat eaters. I do know a handful of south Asians who are vegetarians. They basically don’t eat out.


I did it for a couple years from 21-23. It was alright. I missed burgers the most and that was what put me back on meat. I've pretty much ditched anything with nitrates (rarely eat bacon or lunch meat anymore) but steak, burgers, roast chicken, leg of lamb -- yea gimme that.

For Thanksgiving two of the last three years I've done "greek style lamb". I dunno it's just a method a chef shared with me at a T-Day prior. Basically you just season the hell out of the lamb, and then you cut up a bunch of veggies (usually I go with roma tomatoes, yellow onion, potato and carrots) and let the lamb cook in the oven as the fat drips on the veggie rack below. It's a bit of a process but it makes the veggies taste amazing.

At the end, if you have a good grill available, you can finish the lamb on the grill. Man my mouth is watering just thinking about it. Maybe I'll do this this weekend.
   3409. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5691356)
Seems tied to the general aesthetic of earlier times that equated status with it being unnecessary to chew.


Remember that for a few centuries in Europe, after we started cooking processed foods with added sugar, but before modern dentistry, it was common to be missing teeth and honestly it was common to be in constant pain from toothache. In fact this was correlated with high status, or at least with not being a peasant. (They had other health problems but good teeth)
   3410. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5691357)
I knew a (relatively) serious vegan who retreated to standard vegetarianism solely because of ice cream.
   3411. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5691359)
I don't know if I can agree with several of his steps in grilling a steak. He talks about drying out a steak overnight which I agree with but then he talks about salting it ahead of time to draw out the moisture then to put it back in as a brine but the issue with that is you're bringing liquid nearer to the surface and you're making your meat mushy as well. He may call it more tender but as he notes it is breaking down the protein and giving it a mushier mouthfeel. I'm not a big fan of brining most meats because of that. There is a noticeable degradation of the quality of meat when you brine it. So adding salt via brine is a tradeoff one that I don't think is worth it. I also see that he acknowledges that resting your steak really doesn't do anything.

I can also see why he would want to multiple flip while I don't. I use a gas grill he uses charcoal. Opening up the grill every time to flip reduces the temp for me, it doesn't for him. The same thing happens if you're cooking on a stovetop. If you're constantly flipping the steak you are constantly dropping the temperature in the pan.
   3412. jmurph Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5691363)
What are the things I can do to make better food for my girlfriend and me? How can I make better food for guests?

Obviously listen to the couple of pros first and follow their lead, but something I finally started doing (after too many years of meh results) was actually following, really following to a t, the good recipes you find from reputable chefs. Previously I would always underseason, or not add the, whatever, fresh chopped cilantro or green onions, etc., at the end on the plate. Underdo the onions and garlic, that sort of thing. Presumably once you're a more confident cook you can start to freestyle and all of that (I'm mostly not there, other than a couple basic go tos I still try to follow recipes when I'm trying something), but I finally started to trust that these people were famous recipe makers for a reason!

   3413. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5691364)
For Thanksgiving two of the last three years I've done "greek style lamb". I dunno it's just a method a chef shared with me at a T-Day prior. Basically you just season the hell out of the lamb, and then you cut up a bunch of veggies (usually I go with roma tomatoes, yellow onion, potato and carrots) and let the lamb cook in the oven as the fat drips on the veggie rack below. It's a bit of a process but it makes the veggies taste amazing.

At the end, if you have a good grill available, you can finish the lamb on the grill.
You know, I think you just solved my problem of what to do with the goat leg that I've had in my freezer for months. (My brother-in-law is a very ambitious home cook, and he bought a whole goat from a local farm downstate.)
   3414. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:25 PM (#5691365)
That looks frighteningly similar in girth to our favorite oft-discussed Nordic cuisine tome. Hopefully it's a bit more accessible.


It's way better. For starters, it's a real and popular cookbook from Italy, not a glamor item from a coffee table book press for international customers. And it is chock full of recipes - like there are thousands in there - and many of them are fairly simple. When I was a sous at a fancy Italian restaurant with 3 stars from the SF chronicle I would still pull it down and find something simple to put onto the menu.

Also, it goes without saying, Italy just has better food.

It doesn't cater to American expectations either. A lot of the food would look out of place in red sauce joint, but is still recognizably Italian somehow.
   3415. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5691366)
Remember that for a few centuries in Europe, after we started cooking processed foods with added sugar, but before modern dentistry, it was common to be missing teeth and honestly it was common to be in constant pain from toothache. In fact this was correlated with high status, or at least with not being a peasant. (They had other health problems but good teeth)
"Bad teeth" was indeed my original theory, but IIRC one of the chefs here explained that it was incorrect.
   3416. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5691368)
For awhile there Costco was selling whole lambs in their freezer section (well they had sectioned the carcass out). I don't think it was too expensive either.
   3417. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5691370)
I also see that he acknowledges that resting your steak really doesn't do anything.
Say what now? I know that the "searing in the juices" thing is BS, but resting too? Does that mean I can go ahead and attack my steak as soon as it's done cooking? Please tell me it means that.
   3418. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5691371)
I think you just solved my problem of what to do with the goat leg that I've had in my freezer for months


I would wager this is the first time that sentence has ever been written.
   3419. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5691375)
I've found, as an extremely basic home cook, that a lot of ingredients from supermarkets have too much water in them. Chicken, for instance: a while ago I found air-chilled chicken at a local store, pretty expensive, but very good - for once I could brown chicken without sort of steaming it from the inside first. Onions are another example; most of the onions in the shops are sweet onions, which seem to me impossible to brown because they're largely water. Maybe if I try Fish's advice and cook them at 500 degrees :)

Really just a subset of the "get better ingredients" advice, but even the better stores in the suburbs, with a good range of fresh stuff, may just not have ingredients that lend themselves to some of the tastier preparations.
   3420. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5691376)
I would wager this is the first time that sentence has ever been written.
I'm nothing if not innovative.
   3421. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5691377)
It doesn't cater to American expectations either. A lot of the food would look out of place in red sauce joint, but is still recognizably Italian somehow.

Thanks, ordered one.


Also, it goes without saying, Italy just has better food.

Easy to forget until I actually go somewhere else.
   3422. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5691378)
All of you people besmirching meat, do you have any recommendations for a good veggie burger? I was excited to try the Beyond Meat burger a few months ago, but I didn't think it was anything special, even by veggie burger standards.
   3423. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5691381)
I'm a big fan of salting meat long before cooking it. It absolutely works.
   3424. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5691385)
"Bad teeth" was indeed my original theory, but IIRC one of the chefs here explained that it was incorrect.

The premise is a bit false. Europe hasn't been eating processed food with added sugar for centuries. It has been decades not centuries. Now then the rich would use methods that would lead to unhealthy diets. Like for instances preferring white flour because it looked better but stripped out all the nutrients and they didn't no better so they didn't enrich the flour. The rich also loved themselves some organ meat which is rich in purines and they also could get their hands on a lot of alcohol which would also help lead to gout.

In terms of teeth the rich were able to afford dentistry which while primitive did offer them relief that the peasants could not afford. A rich man could afford a good set of dentures while a poor man could not.
   3425. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5691386)
Onions are another example; most of the onions in the shops are sweet onions, which seem to me impossible to brown because they're largely water. Maybe if I try Fish's advice and cook them at 500 degrees :)


Actually properly browning an onion, and not burning it, takes about 45 minutes, with frequent stirring. Worth it.
   3426. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5691388)
Same author on pre-salting meat. Another authoritative discussion.

Moral of the story: If you've got the time, salt your meat for at least 40 minutes and up to overnight before cooking. If you haven't got 40 minutes, it's better to season immediately before cooking. Cooking the steak anywhere between three and 40 minutes after salting is the worst way to do it.
   3427. Baldrick Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5691390)
All of you people besmirching meat, do you have any recommendations for a good veggie burger? I was excited to try the Beyond Meat burger a few months ago, but I didn't think it was anything special, even by veggie burger standards.

Many of my friends (meat and veggies alike) really like the Impossible Burger, though I didn't find it to be much better than the stuff you can get from Morningstar for a buck. But I'd certainly give that one a shot to see if you like it.
   3428. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5691394)
Say what now? I know that the "searing in the juices" thing is BS, but resting too? Does that mean I can go ahead and attack my steak as soon as it's done cooking? Please tell me it means that.

Basically yes. Meat loses juice. It happens no matter what you do. Stick a steak on a white plate and let it rest for 15 minutes and you'll find plenty of juices on the plate. Cut it up and juices will come out. Eat a steak immediately after it comes off the grill and you'll get the same thing happening the only difference is that you'll be eating it while it is happening and it will be hotter. I find both those things preferable.

I'm a big fan of salting meat long before cooking it. It absolutely works.

It works in what way?
   3429. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5691397)
properly browning an onion, and not burning it, takes about 45 minutes, with frequent stirring

Sounds like a project for my retirement. Or after I give up posting on BBTF all day :-D
   3430. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5691398)
Moral of the story: If you've got the time, salt your meat for at least 40 minutes and up to overnight before cooking. If you haven't got 40 minutes, it's better to season immediately before cooking. Cooking the steak anywhere between three and 40 minutes after salting is the worst way to do it.

I guess I'm just not following the logic. Putting a steak uncovered in the fridge overnight helps draw out and evaporate the moisture. Putting salt on a steak helps draw out the moisture and denatures the protein. Now then drawing out the moisture in a fridge overnight is going to lead to more evaporation of the liquid inside a steak. That cannot be avoided. Protein being denatured before cooking is I guess a personal taste thing. I personally don't like the way it makes meat mushy and I think most people agree which is why we don't commonly marinate tender meats like filet, strip, and ribeyes with vinegar we do it with oil.
   3431. jmurph Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5691401)
All of you people besmirching meat, do you have any recommendations for a good veggie burger? I was excited to try the Beyond Meat burger a few months ago, but I didn't think it was anything special, even by veggie burger standards.

I gave up the ghost on that and just make black bean burgers, or lentil-based ones. The cheap morningstar grillers are the only ones I'm aware of that you can actually grill, which I only do because A. it's fun to play with fire and B. I'm the only vegetarian in the family.
   3432. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5691402)
The problem with cooking at home is that generally your stove lacks sufficient gas output, you lack sufficient cooking equipment, and the proper size to properly caramelize onions. Most home stovetops lose their heat/energy really quickly when cooking. The gas flow can't keep up with the cooking and invariably the pot/pan loses heat.
   3433. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5691404)
Resting a steak is not BS, McCoy misread that part of it. Resting is real.

source: I was literally the culinary director of a meat company, I know this ####
   3434. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5691410)
source: I was literally the culinary director of a meat company, I know this ####


I was always told to salt it and let it come up to room temp for an hour or so before cooking. Is that solid?
   3435. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5691412)
I was always told to salt it and let it come up to room temp for an hour or so before cooking. Is that solid?


Yes. Solid.
   3436. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5691415)
Resting a steak is not BS, McCoy misread that part of it. Resting is real.

source: I was literally the culinary director of a meat company, I know this ####


No in fact here is what your expert said "That said, if you are using the reverse-sear method, then resting is largely unnecessary: the steak cooked gently enough that there is not a large temperature gradient inside it anyway."

Modernist cuisine, which actually looked into this scientifically and your guy posted but did really admit he was wrong, stated that they don't run not because you don't cut the steak (which is silly because you are cooking a cut steak to begin with and as noted the whole "locking in the juices by searing" is widely known to be false) but because hot juices are more viscous than colder juices. Steaks lose their juices no matter what you do. I'd rather eat a hot steak with hot juices than a warm steak floating in cold juices.
   3437. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5691416)
The problem with cooking at home is that generally your stove lacks sufficient gas output, you lack sufficient cooking equipment, and the proper size to properly caramelize onions. Most home stovetops lose their heat/energy really quickly when cooking. The gas flow can't keep up with the cooking and invariably the pot/pan loses heat.


"Hot pan, hot oil". Great advice. And have more oils around than just olive. Too many Americans seem to think that olive is a great all around oil. It's not. I like peanut or just good old fashioned vegetable oil. Bobby Flay has a great cast iron fried chicken recipe that uses ALOT of peanut oil. I've made it once or twice. Turned out really good and you can strain and re-use the oil.
   3438. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5691418)
McCoy, the biggest reason I pre-salt meat is that the salt penetrates so that the interior itself is salty. I also like it because it gets the "sweating" effect over with - when you put salt on meat, it exudes water, and I'd rather have that happen in my fridge hours before I grill than on the grill itself. Some of that water is reabsorbed, which is fine, and some evaporates, which concentrates the flavor of the meat. The tenderization is really minimal, in my opinion.
   3439. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5691421)
No in fact here is what your expert said "That said, if you are using the reverse-sear method, then resting is largely unnecessary: the steak cooked gently enough that there is not a large temperature gradient inside it anyway."


Yeah. If you are using the reverse-sear method. And if you're not - like 99% of Americans grilling - you need to let it rest.

As to the mechanics of it - whether you're losing the juices or because they're more viscous - it doesn't matter. What matters is you need to let it rest.
   3440. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5691422)
Cover it with olive oil and salt - like, way, way more than you think is appropriate - put it in a 500 degree oven. That's how you should cook it.


This.

Roasted broccoli is the bomb, though I usually throw a few more spices on there. There's a habanero olive oil I get from a place in Santa Fe that I especially love using. And bourbon smoked pepper.

I do mine at 450 though, 20 minutes for a pan.

Only way to do brussel sprouts as well.
   3441. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5691424)
If you are cooking a 6 pound bottom round roast let it rest because you aren't going to eat the whole thing in 5 to 10 minutes. If you're cooking a 10oz filet cook it and eat it. The difference between waiting and eating it now is going to be negligible in terms of juice loss (especially so if you also use a sauce and or butter) but eating it now will produce a hotter piece of meat which is usually far more preferable than a warm piece of meat.
   3442. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:05 PM (#5691426)
That's terrible advice, nobody listen to him
   3443. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5691427)

- gets lawn chair, turns off grill, gets popcorn -
   3444. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5691430)
McCoy, the biggest reason I pre-salt meat is that the salt penetrates so that the interior itself is salty. I also like it because it gets the "sweating" effect over with - when you put salt on meat, it exudes water, and I'd rather have that happen in my fridge hours before I grill than on the grill itself. Some of that water is reabsorbed, which is fine, and some evaporates, which concentrates the flavor of the meat. The tenderization is really minimal, in my opinion.

I don't disagree with this I just don't understand the idea that somehow according to the author the liquid gets reabsorbed. I think there would be a good amount of loss of liquid in there, now it may be worth it due to the presence of the salt making what remains taste better. I also don't like the way the meat feels in my mouth when I salt meat way ahead of time. The mushiness is noticeable to me.

This kind of goes back to the roast vs steak example I wrote about in 3441. If I have an inch and a half NY strip I don't need the salt to penetrate the steak and get into the interior. Every single cut I take from that steak is going to have a good amount of salty charred exterior attached to it. Now if I have a 6 pound roast I'm either going to have to slice the roast very thing to make sure every cut has at least some of the exterior goodness or there is going to be a bunch of bites in which all I'm eating unseasoned interior beef. Having said that I have no idea what effect salting ahead of time would have on a 6 pound roast though I vaguely recall reading that at best you get between 1/4 to an inch of penetration when salting or least I recall something like that from the BBQ circuit.
   3445. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5691431)
Roasted broccoli is the bomb, though I usually throw a few more spices on there. There's a habanero olive oil I get from a place in Santa Fe that I especially love using. And bourbon smoked pepper.

I do mine at 450 though, 20 minutes for a pan.


We roast almost all of our veggies. Broccoli, sweet potato, cauliflower, asparagus, brussel sprout, peppers. Salt and olive oil. We do it at 425. 15-20 min for asparagus or broccoli. 25 minutes for others.

So much better than boiling or steaming.
   3446. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5691433)
that at best you get between 1/4 to an inch of penetration when salting or least I recall something like that from the BBQ circuit.


that's interesting. I've seen some advice on roasts that calls for making a cut and inserting salt into it or using a fork to help get the salt down into the meat.
   3447. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5691436)
That's terrible advice, nobody listen to him

Do you deny that resting meats lose juices no matter what you do? Do you deny that resting your meats will drop the temperature of the meat? How would you define resting? How long would you rest a 10oz filet?
   3448. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5691437)
that's interesting. I've seen some advice on roasts that calls for making a cut and inserting salt into it or using a fork to help get the salt down into the meat.

Yes, and they also have brine needles and such to get salt into big cuts because it just doesn't penetrate all that deep.
   3449. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5691438)
I vaguely recall reading that at best you get between 1/4 to an inch of penetration when salting or least I recall something like that from the BBQ circuit.


You were probably reading about the smoke. Salt can penetrate very deep - this is obvious if you've ever made your own corned beef, for example. If you don't brine it long enough, you can get a small area of yucky brown surrounded by bright pink elsewhere. (The color is from the nitrite, not the salt, but the sale is penetrating too). Now, that takes like 7 days, and yes, I'm talking about a dry brine, no injection. This voluminous study says that salt goes about 2/3" in 24 hours.
   3450. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:26 PM (#5691449)
Do you deny that resting meats lose juices no matter what you do?

No. That doesn't mean that every technique will lose the same amount of juice.

Do you deny that resting your meats will drop the temperature of the meat?

Sort of. See below. The exterior will get colder, yes.

How would you define resting?

Let it sit at room temperature or somewhere a bit warmer.

How long would you rest a 10oz filet?

8-10 minutes.

The other problem with immediately cutting it is that it screws with the doneness. I pull a 10oz filet off the grill when it's about 108F interior temp, and 10 minutes later when I'm ready to cut it, it's now 120F in the interior, perfect rare. The interior is actually warmer than it was 10 minutes ago.

If you were cutting it immediately you'd need to cook it to 120F which would cause overcooking if you failed to cut into it quickly and would probably overcook the exterior to some extent. Only slicing it and exposing it to air would prevent it from overcooking. Bad idea. My steak will be perfect now, perfect in one hour, perfect tomorrow.

The dearly departed on this matter.

You can at least acknowledge that what you're advising is totally out of step with all professional advice? Seriously, cutting the steak immediately is well known to be a hack move, only employed where they care more about turning tables than they do about food quality.
   3451. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5691464)
I get carry over cooking and I was ignoring it for this conversation which we were just focusing on the juices.


The dearly departed on this matter.


And he gets it wrong. The juices do not spread back throughout the meat. That is the outdated belief.

You can at least acknowledge that what you're advising is totally out of step with all professional advice? Seriously, cutting the steak immediately is well known to be a hack move, only employed where they care more about turning tables than they do about food quality.


Juices seep out more slowly because as they cool they form a sort of emulsion with the dissolved protein within the cooked meat and at a certain coldness just straight up turning into a quasi solid. You let your meat rest, as you know the interior continues to cook, you then cut it. What exactly has cooled to thicken the juices? The exterior? It didn't have any juices to begin with after searing it. So how much more juices do you lose if instead of letting it rest for 8 to 10 minutes (which seems a bit long even for conventional wisdom) you pull it off the grill, plate it, put your accompaniments on the plate as well, put it on a table, sit down, and eat it? So like 3 minutes after pulling off the grill? Would the juice loss be noticeable? Is one going to say, wow that is a dry steak? The answer to that is no.

The real reason you rest your steak is to carry over the cooking not to keep the juices in the steak.
   3452. Chicago Joe Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5691468)
So, about grills. Has anyone here used a combination gas/charcoal grill? Any recommendations?
   3453. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5691469)
So you do rest your steak? Is that what you're saying?
   3454. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5691470)
You were probably reading about the smoke. Salt can penetrate very deep - this is obvious if you've ever made your own corned beef, for example. If you don't brine it long enough, you can get a small area of yucky brown surrounded by bright pink elsewhere. (The color is from the nitrite, not the salt, but the sale is penetrating too). Now, that takes like 7 days, and yes, I'm talking about a dry brine, no injection. This voluminous study says that salt goes about 2/3" in 24 hours.

No I was thinking about salt and its penetration of proteins over a few hours to a day which we were talking about when talking about salting a steak over night.
   3455. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5691475)
2/3" of an inch penetration, coming from both sides, means full or almost full penetration on as thick a steak as any backyard griller is likely to attempt.

The other reason to salt ahead of time, by the way, is so that your shitty line cooks don't screw up the seasoning, but that's not of interest to most people here.
   3456. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5691476)
So you do rest your steak? Is that what you're saying?

As in for ten minutes? No. As in I take it off the grill and put it on a plate and then eat it? Yes. I don't advocate using your grill as a plate. What I did say is that is perfectly fine to cut a steak and start eating it immediately after you pull it off the grill. There are reasons you shouldn't such as getting it to the right temp and because you also don't want to put a 700 degree piece of meat in your mouth but the whole dreaded THE JUICES WILL RUN is overblown.

Hell, Peter Lugar's delivers steaks right to your table still sizzling and then cut it up into 20 or so slices right there and then for you and they've been around for a very very long time and people rave about them. Are they hacks?
   3457. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5691484)
2/3" of an inch penetration, coming from both sides, means full or almost full penetration on as thick a steak as any backyard griller is likely to attempt.

The other reason to salt ahead of time, by the way, is so that your shitty line cooks don't screw up the seasoning, but that's not of interest to most people here.


Well, that was for a wet brine but the study is a bit weird. In his initial test he used a strong brine and got 2 mm penetration in an hour. He then used a more common % brine and got 5 to 6 mm of penetration in the first hour. How did that happen?

And the reason not to salt ahead of time is so that you don't get 48 hour salted steaks (or longer) that are mushy when you don't sell them all on the first day.

The reality of all this discussion is that we're merely shuffling deck chairs. The difference in salting and immediately cooking on a high sear while only flipping once vs salting the night before, searing at the end, and flipping constantly amounts to a hill of beans that most people won't notice.
   3458. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5691486)
I think that Peter Luger slices the steak, throws a bunch of butter on it, and flashes it under a broiler. They don't cut it at the table.
   3459. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5691489)
Dear lord, you could spend a lifetime learning about this. This article is anti-resting, and includes a review of several other resting experiments, including ones with pro-resting conclusions. This guy argues that while a non-rested steak does spill more juice, you can just sop it up again and it tastes just as good.

The difference in salting and immediately cooking on a high sear while only flipping once vs salting the night before, searing at the end, and flipping constantly amounts to a hill of beans that most people won't notice.

This I probably agree with. You use the right amount of salt, and cook it to the right doneness, get a nice sear, it'll taste good. I had a chef that I had to argue this with him - he had read somewhere (Modernist Cuisine?) that you should rest your steak in the middle of the cooking process and so he was doing that while the restaurant's #1 complaint was that the food was slow to come out of the kitchen.
   3460. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:13 PM (#5691496)
I think that Peter Luger slices the steak, throws a bunch of butter on it, and flashes it under a broiler. They don't cut it at the table.

I seem to remember our waiter bringing out the steak and cutting it but that was a couple of years ago so I could be wrong. The steak, which was a thick porterhouse, came out very very fast as well. So even if they cut it ahead of time they most certainly didn't have the steak resting for 10 minutes. It took like 15 minutes to get our steak.
   3461. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5691498)
Changing the subject drastically ...

From FB --

"(Legendary sf editor John W.) Campbell’s father’s second wife was the daughter of HIS father’s wife from her first marriage."

I'm ... having a hard time working this out, somehow.
   3462. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5691503)
That is why I hate Peter Lugers, I'm not a child, I can and want to cut my own steak.

If I ever am cooking/grilling steaks for more than two people, I always use my Anova (Sous Vide) stand, it removes all anxiety over doneness on the meat.
   3463. BDC Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5691511)
"(Legendary sf editor John W.) Campbell’s father’s second wife was the daughter of HIS father’s wife from her first marriage."

I'm ... having a hard time working this out, somehow


Sounds like the inspiration for Robert Heinlein's Time Enough for Love:

Lazarus has now moved to a new planet and established a polyamorous family consisting of three men, three women, and a larger number of children, two of whom are female clones of Lazarus. Lazarus attempts to travel backward in time to 1919 in order to experience it as an adult, but an error in calculation places Lazarus in 1916 on the eve of America's involvement in World War I. An unintentional result is that Lazarus falls in love with his own mother. To retain her esteem and that of his grandfather, Lazarus enlists in the army. Eventually Lazarus and his mother, Maureen, consummate their mutual attraction before Lazarus leaves for the war.


   3464. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5691516)
I'm ... having a hard time working this out, somehow

Because it's a poorly written sentence, is it not, editor gef and professor BDC?
   3465. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5691519)
"(Legendary sf editor John W.) Campbell’s father’s second wife was the daughter of HIS father’s wife from her first marriage."

I'm ... having a hard time working this out, somehow.


His father's wife (not his mother) had a daughter from a previous marriage. He married that daughter as his 2nd wife. There is no blood relation between him and his 2nd wife.
   3466. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5691520)
So somehow I haven't seen Deadpool; planning to go to a friend's home, get some takeout, watch the first one, then hit the theater for the sequel. Any non-spoilery hints I should keep an eye out for while I'm watching either one?
   3467. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5691531)
How about this:

(Legendary sf editor John W.) Campbell’s father’s second wife was his stepsister.

OR EVEN

(Legendary sf editor John W.) Campbell’s stepmother was his father's stepsister.
   3468. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5691562)
I think the Peter Luger lesson might be that lost moisture from early cutting is more than compensated for by excessive amounts of butter. YUM
   3469. dlf Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:09 PM (#5691572)
Sounds like the inspiration for Robert Heinlein's Time Enough for Love:


Heinlein definitely had a thing for weird varieties of incest. One of his first stories is "All you Zombies" where the protaganist both mother and father to him/her self.
   3470. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5691584)
If you are cooking a 6 pound bottom round roast let it rest because you aren't going to eat the whole thing in 5 to 10 minutes.
Hold my beer...
   3471. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5691590)
2/3" of an inch penetration, coming from both sides,
Saw that once, on a very different type of website.
   3472. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5691591)
Heinlein definitely had a thing for weird varieties of incest. One of his first stories is "All you Zombies" where the protaganist both mother and father to him/her self.


Was just about to mention that myself.
   3473. K-BAR, J-BAR (trhn) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5691593)
You were probably reading about the smoke. Salt can penetrate very deep - this is obvious if you've ever made your own corned beef, for example. If you don't brine it long enough, you can get a small area of yucky brown surrounded by bright pink elsewhere. (The color is from the nitrite, not the salt, but the sale is penetrating too). Now, that takes like 7 days, and yes, I'm talking about a dry brine, no injection. This voluminous study says that salt goes about 2/3" in 24 hours.


I knew that link was gonna go to amazing ribs. If you're interested in brining, their site is all you need. Also, if you're interested in homemade pastrami, 1) Make it! and 2) Follow their recipe.
   3474. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5691594)
So, about grills. Has anyone here used a combination gas/charcoal grill? Any recommendations?

I looked into them before I upgraded to a 3 burner Genesis from Weber. Couldn't find anything that had comparable quality of construction as the Webers. A lot of them just felt flimsy, had rust issues, or seemed to have small cooking surfaces.
   3475. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5691605)
Thick, dry-aged porterhouse is the specialty of the house at one of the most beloved beef emporia in the nation, Peter Luger Steakhouse in Brooklyn. It is cooked under a screaming hot gas broiler to medium rare, and then, to halt the carryover cooking, the two sections are sliced from the bone, and sliced again into hunks so several people can share it. It is served swimming in its juices. See those spoons in the picture above? They are for saucing the meat on your plate with the juices in the platter. I sincerely doubt any steak has been sent back to the Peter Luger kitchen for being too dry.


That's Amazing Ribs description of the porterhouse at Luger's.
   3476. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 13, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5691629)
I would not go back to Lugers. It wasn’t bad but I’ve had better steaks and the value wasn’t there.

Don’t know if I should be asking here - soccer bar near the loop (in Chicago)?

I’m headed to the girl and the goat and will see if I can get a seat at the bar.
   3477. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:00 PM (#5691631)
I would not go back to Lugers


Me neither, I mean not after what happened to Miss Elizabeth.
   3478. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5691645)
I wouldn't go back either. The only reservation I could get was late at night and had to get that reservation weeks in advance. Got there and it appeared that doing so was completely unnecessary. I think they do that so they can get bribed or something.
Anyway for all the hype it's a very simple menu and their meat is on par with most steakhouses and some are better.
   3479. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5691649)
I think Luger's steak is overrated (delicious, but plenty of places do it just as well, with a larger menu and with slightly less cost/pretentiousness). That said, I'm always excited to go there for lunch. They do the greasy burger/fries combo very well.
   3480. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: June 13, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5691652)
Don’t know if I should be asking here - soccer bar near the loop (in Chicago)?


The Globe is the best soccer bar I think, but it is near Lincoln/Damen. You can get there by Brown Line I believe. I believe that neighborhood is North Center.
   3481. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:41 PM (#5691718)
I just finished Killing Eve.

The actress who played Villanelle: Awesome.

Everything else: SUCKED, especially the ending, which was especially sucky.

Boo.
   3482. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5691722)
So finished my meal at the girl and goat. Managed to find a seat at the bar as soon as I walked in. Got a beer, half order of a vegetable (roasted broccoli) and a rotating special - goat ribs. Everything was very tasty. Portions were a little small (only four goat ribs) - about 50 dollars excluding tip. I’d definitely go back because there are a bunch of things that look really interesting on the menu.
   3483. Lassus Posted: June 13, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5691735)
OK, maybe everything else didn't suck; but the ending was so disappointing to me that it has affected my view of everything else.
   3484. McCoy Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5691738)
So we're talking like 28 bucks for the goat, 10 bucks for vegetables and 8 bucks for a beer?
   3485. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5691756)
McCoy - that is about right.
   3486. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: June 13, 2018 at 09:51 PM (#5691767)
Fascinating article on John Kidd, a rather eccentric, once-famous, but still alive Joyce scholar who had engaged in a rather maddening quest to produce the perfect Ulysses text.

I sorta, kinda vaguely recall Kidd coming up in my own college days - by a professor, who apparently like most of Kidd's colleagues, came to consider him an eccentric fraud...
   3487. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 13, 2018 at 10:33 PM (#5691793)
Don’t know if I should be asking here - soccer bar near the loop (in Chicago)?
Fado, Irish pub at Clark and Grand in River North (just outside the loop). The Globe is also a good call but further away.
   3488. PreservedFish Posted: June 13, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5691826)
Thanks Zonk, I liked the article. What a weirdo.
   3489. PreservedFish Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:17 AM (#5691912)
I went to high school with a wacko Joyce scholar, a super weirdo and heavy drug user that was failing all of his classes except in the English department, where he was the first student on record to receive a full A+ from two or three teachers. He did a senior thesis project on Finnegan's Wake. I don't remember his name and sadly cannot Google him up, but I suspect he went more or less insane just like this Kidd fellow.
   3490. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5691943)
I struggled immensely with "literary criticism and analysis" type courses... it always felt like, IDK, spoiling the magic, I guess. It's not that I can't appreciate particularly deep, dense or allegorical works - it was that attempting to take those smooth curves and construct what feels like a boxy, blocky, blueprint of them feels somehow... wrong, I guess.

Courses devoted to specific authors, periods, or movements - great... It always felt like sort of just skimming the surface or maybe gaining a greater appreciation. Go too deep and the mystery is gone, I guess.
   3491. PreservedFish Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:05 AM (#5691957)
I did well in lit criticism, and enjoyed it, but I still had a feeling that it was an enormous waste of time. I also never felt like it was "spoiling the magic" because I felt that the analysis was usually orthogonal to the actual intent of the author - so much time spent on allegory and metaphor and so little spent on, like, why a novel is enjoyable, why the plot works, why it compels.

But sometimes I did feel like a difficult text could come alive with a great teacher - for example, "As I Lay Dying."

Interested in BDC's thoughts.
   3492. BDC Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5691960)
There's a certain kind of literary scholar, I would say a dying breed except there are always a few around (and they were never numerous) – they seem to have come out of the pages of an old book by Richard Altick called The Scholar Adventurers, people who hunted down lost manuscripts and proved that X knew Y or had read Z.

Most English and foreign-language scholarship isn't like that. You read something, you write criticism about it, you try to understand contexts, you make interpretive arguments. But that's just the maintenance work of culture, it's not very adventurous. The "scholar adventurer" type, such as Kidd, wants to be like Rutherford discovering the atomic nucleus, or maybe John Cleese holding up the artifact and declaring "A Sumerian drinking vessel of the Fourth Dynasty." But even most physicists don't get to make amazing discoveries, and from what I can tell, most archeology seems to be a matter of straining dirt through sieves.
   3493. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5691965)
I knew a (relatively) serious vegan who retreated to standard vegetarianism solely because of ice cream.


Swiss cheese is what did me in, some 18 1/2 years ago.
   3494. BDC Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5691975)
And more to Fish's point in #3491: I think I've experienced the same thing. Quite a lot of English professors, a generation or more ago, grew up either not having any interest in creative writing, or believing that scholarship and creative work should have strict boundaries. So to talk about the craft of writing was somehow just shoptalk/chatter, but building impersonal structures of context or interpretation was serious "research."

Things are changing a little, I think. Many of our students now have creative writing as their central interest. I have found this liberating because it lets me talk about choices writers make (eg, first-person vs. third-person narration), and the differing impact of those choices on the reader. "Affect" has become a hotter term in literary studies in the past decade: how does a work make you feel? BITD that was not only considered frivolous, but was even considered "the affective fallacy."

   3495. Morty Causa Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5691986)
Nice thoughts and comments on Joyce. I first read him on an implicit dare in high school. My wonderful English teacher was reading Ulysses and told me I wasn't ready for it. So, of course.... She was right, though. Still, I worked at it and learned more reading the book and the criticism on it than anything else in my literary learning. Indeed for about two years after my serious reading was mostly restricted to Joyce. I finally quit. He's kind of a dead end. In a way, it's like waiting for Salinger to publish something. I don't regret my service-time at all, though.
   3496. Morty Causa Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5691992)
Between bouts of Busby Berkeley, I've been listening to this wonderful singer. This is her version of "Stardust".

Many great singers--Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Nat King Cole--have covered the song, but she knocks them out of the water here. I think you can see why Sinatra once said something to the effect that with some female singers he immediately had the urge to do a duet. With Jo Stafford, he said he just wanted to sit down and bask in her voice and singing. She's simply perfect.
   3497. PreservedFish Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5691997)
Every year or two I repost my account of my experience reading Ulysses, from a comment I wrote 10 years ago:

"I read Ulysses in a two-man book club, founded exclusively for the purpose of reading that one book. We pledged to do it without any sort of guide. The other man didn't make it past 300 pages.

I finished it. It's not easy. There were chunks - sometimes huge chunks, 100+ pages at a time - that were, to me, gobbledygook. Sometimes the gobbledygook was beautiful and I was happy even if I didn't understand what was happening, but it was frequently so disorienting that the temptation to skim or just put the book down was strong. So the truth is that I probably only finished it as a tour de force.

But at least one half and maybe even two-thirds of the novel is entirely lucid, and not just lucid but absolutely extraordinary. The quality and variety of this writing, and the depth of his imagination, is simply unmatched by any other author. It's difficult to convey the experience. (And it blows away anything in his two previous books that everyone has read.) I'm not exagerrating - frequently I couldn't believe how the words that I'd just read could possibly be so good. It is so facile and so inventive and so powerful and so intelligent and so humorous and so confident...

And I am happy that I didn't read with a guide. I think that they would spoil some of the surprises of the novel, which may be referred to very very obliquely in the beginning but only explained explicitly near the end. There are a few "oh snap!" revelations.

So, if you ask me my opinion of Ulysses, I'll tell you that with a good editor it would be the best book in history. Despite the impossible sections, I am very very happy that I stuck with it and finished the book. Some day I will read it with one of the guides next to me, and we'll see if I recover those sections that were entirely lost to me."

2018 Update! I read Ulysses about 12 years ago. I'll probably be ready to re-read it at some point in the next 5-10 years. But my thought today is that I would do it again without annotations. I remember reading a heavily annotated version of Lolita and it basically ruined the experience, first, by destroying the pace of the book because I was constantly referring to the endnotes, and second, by making me feel stupid by listing the zillions of allusions that I did not pick up on. I think I'm in an extreme minority of people that have read Ulysses as a "virgin" without any help and it's my strong feeling that the book is intended to be read that way. A guide to the book would, no doubt, divulge every secret and mystery within the first few chapters.

One of the brilliant things about Ulysses is that it's written at a hundred different difficulty levels. There is stuff that only dedicated Joyce scholars can hope to understand, stuff that only an early 20th century reader with fluent familiarity in Italian opera and Irish politics would understand, stuff that a Classicist or Bible expert would only understand, but also stuff that any high schooler could understand, and everything in between. So whatever your intelligence or expertise you'll come across a passage that you are just barely smart enough to understand and it makes you feel like a damn genius when you crack it.
   3498. Omineca Greg Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5692001)
She's simply perfect.

Seconded.
   3499. PreservedFish Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5692002)
BDC, thanks for #3494. Exactly what I was talking about, and I'm glad to hear that it's changing. I had one professor who told us "if you're not enjoying the book, stop reading it" and that was kind of mindblowing. But most of my college professors concentrated on dry hermeneutical bullshit, and, like you say, wouldn't deign to discuss the craft of writing. Sometimes all the critical analysis made it seem like the entire point of poetry was to engage the reader in an "unpack the Bible allusion" puzzle. It was actually in high school where my teachers did a better job of making literature exciting.
   3500. Zonk just has affection for alumni Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:57 AM (#5692006)
And more to Fish's point in #3491: I think I've experienced the same thing. Quite a lot of English professors, a generation or more ago, grew up either not having any interest in creative writing, or believing that scholarship and creative work should have strict boundaries. So to talk about the craft of writing was somehow just shoptalk/chatter, but building impersonal structures of context or interpretation was serious "research."


I think this was precisely my experience - my school's English department most definitely and absolutely hewed to this idea. Even course eligibility was, in effect, shuttled into either/or (rather than any both/and)... those pursuing degrees in either realm had great difficulty taking anything but A/100 level survey courses - and at the C/300 level, forget it. Getting a spot in the class meant approval and approval required - almost without exception - pursuit of a degree in the specific discipline.

Things are changing a little, I think. Many of our students now have creative writing as their central interest. I have found this liberating because it lets me talk about choices writers make (eg, first-person vs. third-person narration), and the differing impact of those choices on the reader. "Affect" has become a hotter term in literary studies in the past decade: how does a work make you feel? BITD that was not only considered frivolous, but was even considered "the affective fallacy."


Wish I'd be born later, I guess... I did a very few profs (as in, two) who crossed the boundaries, but they were both of the non-tenured, nomadic lecturer variety that didn't even outlast my term in school.

As a non-academic, it's hard for to grok why this doesn't make logical sense... I mean - how does one adequately analyze Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn without a significant nod towards the narration choice?

My favorite course/professor* mixed the two quite seamlessly - it was a small class on Essay traditions (supposedly on the scholarship track), but he actually mixed in both the scholarship angle and the creative writing angle... to the point that every paper - you had the option: An analysis of the particular trope/style/etc - or - you could try your hand at mimicry. I chose the latter for every paper - and enjoyed the exercise immensely. He was not back the following the year.

*I distinguish between 'favorite' and 'best' - while he was my favorite, I'll admit he also he had some failings... I.e., he tended to cancel classes more than most and did love his scotch. I got along quite well with him - and never had a problem with availability outside class... but that was probably a factor of me being quite amendable to suggestions that we meet for a drink rather than "office hours".
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