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Sunday, June 24, 2018

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (let’s call it July 2018)

With so much time spent fostering garbage takes on food, perhaps many of you missed Tom Breihan’s “A History of Violence” series, which kicked off in 2016 with a celebration of Bullitt:

When you talk about the history of action movies, you sort of have to define what an action movie is first. As with any movie genre, lines blur, and movies can be multiple things at once. Action—fights, chases, bodies forced into extreme circumstances—has been a part of narrative cinema since narrative cinema became a thing. If you wanted to be ultra-pedantic, you could say that the 1903 silent film The Great Train Robbery was the first action movie, though it would take a whole lot of work to draw a historical line between that and John Wick.

For the purposes of this column, action movies didn’t arrive in their modern and fully-formed state until the late ’60s. There were other genres of movies that supplied the kinds of thrills that action movies would later provide: Westerns, war movies, crime thrillers. (All those genres will appear, in hybridized forms, in this column later on. We’re also going to stay away from things like superhero movies, sci-fi, fantasy, and Oscar bait, except in the rare instances when those genres cross over fully with the action genre.) And there were movies that could be considered proto-action movies: John Sturges’ 1955 Bad Day At Black Rock, Hitchcock’s 1959 North By Northwest, all the early movies in the Bond series.

I should also add that the whole goal of this column is to pick the most important action movie of every year, not necessarily the best or most beloved. (Most of the time, though, it probably will be the best or most beloved action movie of its year, partly because bullshit usually doesn’t leave that deep of an impact and partly because I have no desire to rewatch a bunch of bullshit.)

 

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: June 24, 2018 at 06:43 PM | 578 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   401. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 07, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5706844)
The pseudonymous Cecil Adams' "Straight Dope" column has just published its last installment after 45 years of continuous weekly publication.
   402. Lassus Posted: July 08, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5706938)
I would have put the start of that column sometime in the mid-80's, had no idea it was that old.
   403. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 08, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5707024)
Makes sense. The first book collection came out in 1984, which greatly elevated the column's public profile.
   404. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 08, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5707029)
After millions are dead and the city destroyed or heroes are last seen eating shwarma. Like I said a bloodless and no cost plot.


Millions dead? City destroyed? Um .... yeah. And even if you were within an order of magnitude of right, they should starve themselves? Eating is a crime?
   405. Rennie's Tenet Posted: July 08, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5707043)
its last installment after 45 years of continuous weekly publication.


There was a Dutch shortwave program called "The Happy Station" that ran from 1928-95, excepting when the Nazis controlled the airwaves there.
   406. strong silence Posted: July 08, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5707051)
I read The Sympathizer and enjoyed it. History setting, engaging plot, character is likeable, light (even though it won a Pulitzer).
If you have a recommendation for a light or serious summer read I would appreciate it.

I enjoy the type of fiction written by Hiaasen or Robbins.- called satire maybe. Spy thrillers or history are good too.
   407. Lassus Posted: July 08, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5707059)
Regarding previous pop culture TV topics, I'm finding season 3 of the Blacklist to be more entertaining than either of the first two. Maybe I'm alone there, and maybe I have an enormous crush on the lead, but it's been perfect fun.
   408. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 08, 2018 at 10:33 PM (#5707073)

The POPPIEST of POP CULTURE: a revision and addition to the Marvel listing:


My slight re-ordering:

Great
1. Captain America: Winter Soldier - easily the best of the bunch
2. Avengers: Infinity War - the best Avengers movie
3. Spider-Man: Homecoming - the best "first" movie and part of a run of great villains in the MCU
4. The Avengers - when you see this and compare it to the horrifically bad "Justice League"..
5. Black Panther - this movie might have the biggest impact in superhero cinema, after the Christopher Reeves "Superman"
6. Iron Man - the one that started it all
7. Guardians of the Galaxy - the movie I was least likely to see, and was most surprised by how good it was

Very Good
8. Captain America: Civil War - my favourite fight scenes in the MCU
9. Ant-Man - I really didn't think Paul Rudd could be a superhero...I was wrong.

Good
10. Captain America: The First Avenger - I was hoping this would eventually lead to an "Agents of SHIELD" origin movie
11. Thor: Ragnarok - I might have ranked this higher if they didn't make light of the destruction of Asgard. That was a tonal misstep that REALLY bothered me.
12. Avengers: Age of Ultron - I loved the villain
13. Ant-Man & the Wasp - I just saw it today and enjoyed it, but there were too many pieces to the story and felt rushed at times

Decent
14. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - good, but not as good as the original
15. Doctor Strange - I had no interest in Doctor Strange (the comic or the movie) but was still entertained
16. Iron Man 3 - a weird take on Tony Stark but I appreciated the effort


Not Good
17. Thor - never clicked for me
18. Iron Man 2 - Whiplash was terrible

Bad
19. Thor: The Dark World - just an awful dull movie from start to finish

I've never seen any of the Incredible Hulk movies.
   409. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 09, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5707134)
I finished Ken Jennings' book, Planet Funny, about how comedy has permeated our culture, to the extent that future generations will look to movies like "The Big Short" to understand the 2008 financial crash.

Thought the book was interesting overall, and also made me wonder what the iconic movies from the early 21st century will be. Most of my personal favorites (like "The Other Guys") aren't Oscar-caliber, but "Fury Road" and "No Country" are 2000s movies that are on my all-time list.
   410. Swoboda is freedom Posted: July 09, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5707161)
Thought the book was interesting overall, and also made me wonder what the iconic movies from the early 21st century will be. Most of my personal favorites (like "The Other Guys") aren't Oscar-caliber, but "Fury Road" and "No Country" are 2000s movies that are on my all-time list.

I think the Dark Knight will (Heath Ledger is great), maybe Gladiator as an action film. The Incredibles. Lord of the Rings? There will be blood (only for Daniel Day Lewis)

It is hard to know what people will think of special effects in 20-30 years. I was watching the original King Kong with my daughter the other day and she thought the gorilla was funny at first. She got used to it, but watched it in spite of it. So many action movies (especially the comic books), the whole appeal is the special effects. I don't think they will last.
   411. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 09, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5707162)
Have you guys discussed the hot take that West World is trash? Because, West World is, in fact, trash.

On the movie front, I saw Three Identical Strangers this weekend. In some ways, it's the perfect topic for a documentary but the implication that "bad parenting" led to a suicide as opposed to "good parenting" felt very unearned to me. I felt bad for the old guy whose adopted son committed suicide because the way it's edited makes him out to be the cause of it when there is zero evidence for that. Still worth watching, though.
   412. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5707169)
Millions dead? City destroyed? Um .... yeah. And even if you were within an order of magnitude of right, they should starve themselves? Eating is a crime?

Yes. Why would a city destroyed have any use for people with superhuman strength and abilities? Much better to grab a light meal than to pull a collapsed building off a person.
   413. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5707174)
I think the Dark Knight will (Heath Ledger is great), maybe Gladiator as an action film. The Incredibles. Lord of the Rings? There will be blood (only for Daniel Day Lewis)

It is hard to know what people will think of special effects in 20-30 years. I was watching the original King Kong with my daughter the other day and she thought the gorilla was funny at first. She got used to it, but watched it in spite of it. So many action movies (especially the comic books), the whole appeal is the special effects. I don't think they will last.


I was like Gladiator in the 21st century? That movie felt like it was from the 90's. Turns out it was 2000. Anyway, in regards to its greatness I think it has already been aged and somewhat forgotten or at least dropped in its esteem.

I don't think comic book movies are going to age well. Neither Superman nor Batman really aged well nor were they really part of the zeitgeist of an era when looking back. Having said that something from the comic book era is going to have to stick around as an example from the era and I really don't know which one will do it. Dark Knight might have been an early favorite but serious comic book movies ended up crashing and burning and we're now deep in the comedy action era of comic books so perhaps Iron Man? Though based on what came after I don't know if I could say that has aged all that well. Thor Ragnorak is kind of zany and out there but it kind of gets to the heart of this era's movies.

I can definitely see No Country and There Will Be Blood being on the TCM channel or whatever it will be in 30 years. For comedies it would be Shaun of the Dead, Hangover, Anchorman, The Royal Tenenbaums, and probably something else I'm missing. Perhaps Superbad but it should be at least one from each of the known directors and styles.
   414. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 09, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5707189)
Yes. Why would a city destroyed have any use for people with superhuman strength and abilities? Much better to grab a light meal than to pull a collapsed building off a person.


So, I assume that you volunteer all your time, 24x7 doing good works. You never stop to eat, or rest or anything, but just keep on volunteering like a machine, right? We all admire you for your non-stop dedication to all of humanity. Thanks man, you are the best and a role-model for us all.
   415. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: July 09, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5707191)
Have you guys discussed the hot take that West World is trash? Because, West World is, in fact, trash.


I'm not going there again... My initial attempts at disparagement were not received.
   416. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 09, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5707200)
I'm not going there again... My initial attempts at disparagement were not received.


I have not seen a second of it, but I am not sure calling it trash is ever going to lead to any reasonable discussion. From the fair amount I have read about it, it clearly does many things objectively well. That doesn't mean it can't be bad, but it is likely at worst subjectively trash, when measured by some specific criteria.

It is seemingly a terrible romantic comedy, and judging it by those standards would lead one to believe it is trash. That seems a bit unfair though, as I am pretty sure it is not intended to be a romantic comedy. But even so, if you said it was a crappy romantic comedy you would be spot on*.

Similarly Jaws was a miserable romantic comedy. It wasn't much of a noir or western either, honestly, though the on the boat hunting the shark sequences could be spun as a bit of a western if one really wanted to and it could be judged on how good a western that section of the movie was.

What I am saying is it is a bit more meaningful if you explain the criteria by which you are judging something bad (or good), rather than just asserting it.

* Based on what I have read anyway, like I said, I have not seen it yet.
   417. PepTech Posted: July 09, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5707201)
Millions dead? City destroyed? Um .... yeah. And even if you were within an order of magnitude of right, they should starve themselves? Eating is a crime?

Yes. Why would a city destroyed have any use for people with superhuman strength and abilities? Much better to grab a light meal than to pull a collapsed building off a person.
If you're going to accept the premise that superheroes exist and have battled, and defeated, an invading horde of space aliens, then quibbling over a meal break seems petty.

Later movies do address the "cost" of the Battle of New York, both in Stark's PTSD and (eventually) the Sokovia Accords, so it's not like everyone just went on with their lives. There were consequences - well, within the construct of a comic book movie, anyway. What exactly are you expecting? Another 20 minutes of First Responder footage^?

Is the MCU, collectively and on an individual movie basis, full of plot holes and logic fails? Sure. If you care about that stuff to the point where it ruins your enjoyment of Shit Blowing Up (tm), then by all means, don't watch it. But it's probably not fruitful to 1) compare The Avengers to Gandhi or Lincoln or The Godfather, just to point out how it falls short in cultural or historical accuracy, and/or 2) take a dump on people who watch superhero movies purely for escapism.

^ ETA: It occurs to me they did address this aspect, somewhat, at the time. Cap stopped what he was doing in the streets to go to the train station and save a bunch of civilians, and there were a couple scenes where grateful citizens were interviewed about how awesome the heroes were. I'd have to imagine that on the way to getting shawarma, if they saw some rubble in need of clearing, they probably took a moment^^.

^^ You want to get nitpicky? Just watched the shawarma scene. Thor and Cap are still in costume, but Thor has brushed his hair. Hulk has de-Hulked and Banner found some clothes. I guess Tony had time to change - presumably this is after they went to get Loki - but he also lacks any facial cuts or anything like he had a few minutes before. Etc., etc. :)
   418. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 09, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5707205)
I'd say what West World does well is look very slick. It's a well made entertainment as far as effects, set design, acting and so on. Outside of that it's just a lot of gobbledy gook. The bulk of all its ideas are something a middling Black Mirror episode would just toss off as an aside. It's become a very disappointing show. I was lukewarm after the first season but the second season has just descended to gibberish. The one interesting thing they had going was a sort of radical feminism of the robots built to be raped and ###### turning the table but even that petered out quickly. Even beyond that the worst thing about the show is there are no stakes. Characters die, but do they? Is anything here REAL? Mwhahahahahaha! You'll have to wait until next season! It's an elaborate show designed to keep the audience from realizing it has nothing to say. Obviously I was being hyperbolic in my original post, but I do feel like a sucker for having spent 20 hours of my life on the show.

In happier news I have started watching The Expanse. Much, much better. My only, slight criticism of that one is how dreary it looks. I know it has to look dreary because all of the action is taking place in tunnels and space ships, but the dreary lighting starts to drag if you're in binge watch mode. I just hope Thomas Jane gets his hat back at some point.
   419. Srul Itza Posted: July 09, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5707206)
If you're going to accept the premise that superheroes exist and have battled, and defeated, an invading horde of space aliens, then quibbling over a meal break seems petty.


The premise is that, after a long battle/fight scene, they were pretty tired and beat up, and in the shwarma scene they look exhausted from the fight. That actually scans reasonably well.

^^ You want to get nitpicky? Just watched the shawarma scene. Thor and Cap are still in costume, but Thor has brushed his hair. Hulk has de-Hulked and Banner found some clothes. I guess Tony had time to change - presumably this is after they went to get Loki - but he also lacks any facial cuts or anything like he had a few minutes before. Etc., etc. :)


Yeah, well don't forget that this was filmed well after the original movie. They had to hide Chris Evan's face, I think because he had a beard or a mustache (better than CGI-ing it out).
   420. Srul Itza Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5707207)
it's probably not fruitful to. . . take a dump on people who watch superhero movies purely for escapism.



This is the internet. This is what McCoy lives for.
   421. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5707209)
what the iconic movies from the early 21st century will be. Most of my personal favorites (like "The Other Guys") aren't Oscar-caliber, but "Fury Road" and "No Country" are 2000s movies that are on my all-time list.


City of God (2002)
   422. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:11 PM (#5707211)
what the iconic movies from the early 21st century will be. Most of my personal favorites (like "The Other Guys") aren't Oscar-caliber, but "Fury Road" and "No Country" are 2000s movies that are on my all-time list.

Charlie Kaufman movies.
   423. PepTech Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5707214)
Yeah, well don't forget that this was filmed well after the original movie. They had to hide Chris Evan's face, I think because he had a beard or a mustache (better than CGI-ing it out).
Yeah, yeah, the point of the second postscript was to mock nitpickiness, actually. You had to go and make me explain it, didn't you... (it was a beard; he had a hasty prosthetic over it that looked like crap, hence the hand and he's the only one that doesn't actually eat anything)
   424. Lassus Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5707216)
I was lukewarm after the first season but the second season has just descended to gibberish.
Some perspective, please. "Criminal Minds: Beyond Borders" is trash. "Young Sheldon" is trash. "Code Black" is trash. Hell, True Detective season 2 was trash.

Westworld, while frustrating or annoying or nonsensical or wildly uneven is really not trash.

Hyperbole noted, but I thought some of the AI stuff in the last episode was surprising well done. And as you noted, the acting can be sometimes good enough to carry the writing. I didn't think the 2nd season was good, agreement. But the attempt was notable and had enough success for me.
   425. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5707217)
In happier news I have started watching The Expanse. Much, much better. My only, slight criticism of that one is how dreary it looks. I know it has to look dreary because all of the action is taking place in tunnels and space ships, but the dreary lighting starts to drag if you're in binge watch mode. I just hope Thomas Jane gets his hat back at some point.


Wellll ... I have good news and I have bad news; but then I have more good news. The best news though is that all three seasons are great and a fourth season will get made.
   426. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5707219)
Westworld, while frustrating or annoying or nonsensical or wildly uneven is really not trash.


I liked season 1 of Mr. Robot and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching. I liked Season 1 of Legion and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching. I liked Season 1 of True Detective and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching.

Everything I have read suggests Westworld will fit right in :)
   427. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5707220)
or wildly uneven is really not trash.

I wish it was trash. I love trashy b movies. Too bad they just didn't lean into that. (Speaking of trashy B movies. I was watching Mystery Science Theater and they were making fun of The Land Time Forgot starring Doug McClure*, whom you might remember from such films as The People That Time Forgot and Cannonball Run 2, and I thought, aww, does everyone think this is a terrible movie but me?)

*Yes, he was the inspiration for Troy McClure. Not very subtle from The Simpsons on that one.
   428. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5707221)
I liked Season 1 of True Detective and hated Season 2

I know it's the boring take but this is also the correct take. Even Season 1 fizzled out after that house raid episode.
   429. PepTech Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5707222)
It bears repeating, Season 2 of The Good Place is just as strong as Season 1 :)
   430. McCoy Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5707223)
My point with the light meal was that the stakes were not high in the movie in that they did a poor job of convincing the audience the stakes were high. There was no drama or loss or strife because of an alien invasion in that movie. It I was all very PG and emotionless.
   431. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5707224)
It bears repeating, Season 2 of The Good Place is just as strong as Season 1 :)

Yeah, that was a neat trick.
   432. Swoboda is freedom Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5707227)
I liked season 1 of Mr. Robot and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching. I liked Season 1 of Legion and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching. I liked Season 1 of True Detective and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching.

Everything I have read suggests Westworld will fit right in :)


I just started watching Legion. I am thru the first 3 episodes. Is the 2nd season that bad?
   433. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: July 09, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5707228)
I'd say what West World does well is look very slick. It's a well made entertainment as far as effects, set design, acting and so on. Outside of that it's just a lot of gobbledy gook. The bulk of all its ideas are something a middling Black Mirror episode would just toss off as an aside. It's become a very disappointing show. I was lukewarm after the first season but the second season has just descended to gibberish. The one interesting thing they had going was a sort of radical feminism of the robots built to be raped and ###### turning the table but even that petered out quickly. Even beyond that the worst thing about the show is there are no stakes. Characters die, but do they? Is anything here REAL? Mwhahahahahaha! You'll have to wait until next season! It's an elaborate show designed to keep the audience from realizing it has nothing to say. Obviously I was being hyperbolic in my original post, but I do feel like a sucker for having spent 20 hours of my life on the show.


Yes.

I was kinder to it initially (I didn't watch season 1 when it aired - binged just prior to season 2)... but season 2 was such a mess I haven't even bothered with the last two episodes and I doubt I will.

It's devolved into latter career Shyamalanian gotchas and I have reached the point where I no longer care.
   434. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 09, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5707239)
I was surprised how much a re-watch of Season 1 of Westworld rescued the show for me - an awful lot of the disguised narrative at least seemed to be serving a purpose. With Season 2, I have very little faith that can happen again. The writing has disappeared into cliche (particularly Dolores), the Samurai World diversion added nothing, and the whole endeavour just seems aimless. I enjoyed the episode with James Delos in 'treatment' and the Akecheta episode, if mainly because they seemed to be actor's showcase episodes where tone mattered more than narrative.

Westworld now makes a great screensaver, and probably some very good audition scenes for actors in the future. I don't know if it makes sense as a story to watch and process.
   435. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: July 09, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5707242)
We just randomly alighted on 'Battered Bastards of Baseball', a Netflix documentary about Bing Russell and the Portland Mavericks. Has that been covered on BTF?
   436. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 09, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5707353)
I liked season 1 of Mr. Robot and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching.


Season 3 was phenomenal.
   437. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 09, 2018 at 08:33 PM (#5707382)
I don't understand the failure of The Other Guys. It's not like it was high brow or under the radar. It's got tons of easy and raunchy laughs, bankable superstars and all the production you might expect from a big box office comedy. And it is, IMO, one of the funniest movies made in my lifetime. Total flop. #### the world I guess.

Season 2 of the Good Place was shockingly good. The writers of that show are brilliant.

Season 2 of Santa Clarita Diet, IMO, surpassed an excellent season 1. Not sure if anyone is watching it but Olyphant is predictably great and this is probably the only time I've liked Drew Barrymore.

At Swoboda, I lost interest in season 2 of Legion after devouring season 1. Idk if I'd call it bad but it was way up it's own as on a lot of stuff and moved at a terribly slow pace. I plan on going back to it eventually. My understanding is that the end sucked. First season is amazing though.
   438. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 09, 2018 at 09:30 PM (#5707432)
Season 2 of Santa Clarita Diet, IMO, surpassed an excellent season 1. Not sure if anyone is watching it but Olyphant is predictably great and this is probably the only time I've liked Drew Barrymore.


Maybe I should give this another shot. The cast is great, but the first couple of episodes were too gory and not funny enough for me to commit.
   439. Lassus Posted: July 09, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5707459)
I liked season 1 of Mr. Robot and hated Season 2 enough I stopped watching.

I couldn't bear more of the.... to be spoiler-free, very specific type of character that Christian Slater was. I abandoned it when that was revealed.


I also devoured Legion season one, but with ZERO positive press for season two, I sorta just got bored after two episodes.


I'd like to make a further argument in favor of Westworld, but I'm too exhausted. Maybe tomorrow.
   440. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 09, 2018 at 10:51 PM (#5707478)
The cast is great, but the first couple of episodes were too gory and not funny enough for me to commit.

It stays gory. But I do think its darned funny. I don't remember when it turned from curiosity to must-see for me but it was almost certainly more than two episodes in. The writers also put a surprising amount of thought into how to build out its world and the plot.
   441. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5707610)
I now own a copy of Titus Groan, the first doorstopper of the Gormenghast trilogy. Wish me luck!
   442. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5707631)
I now own a copy of Titus Groan, the first doorstopper of the Gormenghast trilogy. Wish me luck!


Decades ago I read it. That was when I finished everything I started, without fail. It had some VERY well written and evocative prose. Some of the descriptions sit with me today. I never read the second or third books in the series, because ... yeah. No.

Good luck though man.

Another door stopper I read (once) was Dhalgren by Samuel Delany. I am glad I read it, but I feel no need to repeat the process.
   443. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5707634)
What's the best really long book you've read? I don't know if any yarn can touch The Count of Monte Cristo, which has a breathless page-turning climax that lasts about 400 pages.
   444. McCoy Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5707635)
I read that book when I was like 21 and really liked it. . . .until I realized I had read the abridged version!
   445. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5707640)
It was probably still like 350 pages, huh?

I read it on a long vacation in France, which was pretty great. There are a few sites from the book you can visit, most notably the Chateau d'If, the island prison where the protagonist is initially held, and where he learns the location of a hoard of almost infinite wealth.
   446. McCoy Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5707654)
It was somewhere between 450 to 550 pages long.
   447. Rennie's Tenet Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5707660)
Count of Monte Cristo is my pick for the best modern story. It would meet the Odyssey in the all-time finals.
   448. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5707690)
What's the best really long book you've read? I don't know if any yarn can touch The Count of Monte Cristo, which has a breathless page-turning climax that lasts about 400 pages.


I'd have to check ASOIAF page counts (though, the larger ones at the back-end aren't all that good so maybe not), but War and Peace would be mine.

First read for a class, but it was a rarity among college courses in that it was a close read that spanned the entire quarter rather one of half dozen works plowed through in a week or two. The professor was also excellent - it was a rare course that almost felt like leisure more than 'course work'.

I've reread it a couple times since and still think its place among the classics is richly, well-deserved.
   449. Hysterical & Useless Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5707693)
What's the best really long book you've read?


Is A la Recherche du Temps Perdu considered one book? I know undergrads are sometimes assigned Swann's Way in isolation, but so much of the meaning of that section hangs on what occurs in the remaining six books.

My French is far too inadequate to ever read the original, but I believe I've read the Scott Moncrieff and Kilmartin translations twice each, the last time probably 20 years ago. Should probably check out one of the newer versions.

My only reservation re: Proust is the narrator's insistence that ultimately EVERYONE is queer--except Marcel.

   450. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5707698)
What's the best really long book you've read?


Stephen J Gould's Structure of Evolutionary Theory of course.
   451. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5707712)
I started War and Peace at a fine pace, and enjoyed it ... but when I was around page 800 I got very ill, the sickest I've been in my life. And the sicker I got, the more I read, because I couldn't do anything active. Around page 1250 or so I began to actually associate the book with my illness and the thought of reading more made me feel worse. When I got better, it was the last thing I wanted to look at. So I never finished it, and that was 15 years ago, so I'd need to start anew if I ever wanted to. I might, some day.
   452. Hot Wheeling American, MS-13 Enthusiast Posted: July 10, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5707788)
Likely not what you had in mind, but the Robert Caro biographies are long (and excellent). Think I read the first LBJ book in 2012 and I'm still working my way through them. Picked up The Passage of Power at the LBJ Library when I was in Austin in April. Will get to that...eventually.
   453. McCoy Posted: July 10, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5707801)
It wasn't exactly riveting and it took me awhile to get through the whole thing but Dreadnought by Massie was a really informative book that shaped how I viewed WWI a great deal. It clocks in at 1040 pages and the follow up book Castles of Steel came in at 896 pages.
   454. Morty Causa Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5707832)
451

I couldn't finish War and Peace either, but you lasted a good bit longer than I did.

I always found the problem with literature written in a foreign language I'm not fluent in is I have this initial, demoralizing feeling that I'm not reading the real thing. Although I have enjoyed some foreign book translations. Gunter Grass's The Tin Drum, for instance.

If not the longest novel I've completed, the novel that took me the longest to read is Ulysses. Part of that, though, was due to the fact that I read it in high school. I had the same experience, sort of, with Richard Dawkins's The Selfish Gene, which I read some 25 years ago, before the internet. Not having a science background, I got me a dictionary/glossary of biology and had to stop often at first to look things up. I probably read the thing two or three times the first time over a two-three month period.

I really liked Manchester's two-volume biography of Churchill. (Never have read yet that third volume.)
   455. Morty Causa Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5707833)
450

How'd you like it?
   456. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5707862)
I couldn't finish War and Peace either, but you lasted a good bit longer than I did.

I always found the problem with literature written in a foreign language I'm not fluent in is I have this initial, demoralizing feeling that I'm not reading the real thing. Although I have enjoyed some foreign book translations. Gunter Grass's The Tin Drum, for instance.


Heh - my foreign language requirement in school was an annoyance that I was actually just one credit away from completing at the time of the W&P class in question.... but, knowing exactly the feeling you're describing - about midway through the class - I actually looked into switching to Russian.

For all the alleged impracticality of higher education and the stewards of it - it was the department head who talked me out of it. She lauded my desire to read a text in its untranslated, original form - but suggested that unless I really had my eyes on at least a masters, if not a doctorate and a future as a Tolstoy scholar or Russian literature professor, it was probably overkill to start three years of language study from scratch just because I liked a book.... to say nothing of the fact that it would take more than just that pure class work to get where I would really need to get.
   457. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:26 PM (#5707869)
I've heard about people that "learned Italian to read Dante" or such, and I don't really understand how it works. Dante is written in a medieval Tuscan dialect. How many other surviving works are there in that tongue? Are any of them of good quality? I get the impression that you learn how to read Dante in Italian by studying Dante which would seem to result in a superficial "fluency" that can only be applied to a single work.
   458. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5707873)
450

How'd you like it?


I liked it quite a bit. Gould took time to cover historical changes in how we understood evolutionary theory and for someone like me, a scientist but not an evolutionary biologist and whose understanding of evolutionary theory is only passable in terms of originalist Darwinian theory and the modern molecular mechanistic aspects of heritability and epigenetic modification, it was a great look at how we developed the modern synthesis.

It's a whopper of a book, 1400 pages or so, but Gould keeps it light enough to be accessible to a motivated layperson while including enough nuts and bolts to make it gratifying for someone with some background in the field. Gould being Gould there are plenty of airy diversions into history, sports, engineering, and other areas to help aid in understanding and demonstrate the universality of the concepts under discussion.

   459. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5707879)
My favorite book on evolution, which focuses on islands and the weirdness found therein, is Song of the Dodo. It's long, but not as hard science-driven as the books you two have mentioned, I'm sure. It's pop-science and more of a nature book. I'd rather read about Dodo birds and Komodo dragons and pygmy elephants than molecules and genes, I guess.
   460. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 10, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5707888)
I read and enjoyed Titus Groan, but it was a slog at time, and had an entire sub plot that didn't seem to connect to the rest of the novel.

I bounced hard off Dhalgren
   461. McCoy Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5707905)
I tried to read War and Peace when I was around 19 or so. I had just finished Heart of Darkness, which took me awhile, and for some reason felt the need to tackle a complex Russian author. I think I got about 15 pages in before I called it a day and never picked it up again.
   462. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5707908)
Never heard of Dhalgren. Sounds like a lot of people hate it.
   463. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5707916)
Finished "Cobra Kai" over the weekend. Anybody who liked the original movie will enjoy it. Johnny in particular was shockingly funny. My only quibble is that there are just too many echoes of the past. A character going to a Halloween party in a familiar costume drew an early cheer, but by the time the boy-spies-girlfriend-with-other-boy-and-gets-wrong-impression rehash rolled around I'd long since had enough.
   464. Zonk did it for the children of Russia Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:23 PM (#5707924)
I've heard about people that "learned Italian to read Dante" or such, and I don't really understand how it works. Dante is written in a medieval Tuscan dialect. How many other surviving works are there in that tongue? Are any of them of good quality? I get the impression that you learn how to read Dante in Italian by studying Dante which would seem to result in a superficial "fluency" that can only be applied to a single work.


Yup - exactly what I was told... learning the language - especially at age 20 - is only the first step. Then, you've got to develop the proficiency in period and even dialect, depending. I.e., Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn are written by the same author, but in entirely different vernacular. Imagine learning English as a second language and then attempting Huckleberry Finn.

I tried to read War and Peace when I was around 19 or so. I had just finished Heart of Darkness, which took me awhile, and for some reason felt the need to tackle a complex Russian author. I think I got about 15 pages in before I called it a day and never picked it up again.


My suggestion on tackling W&P is that one should first use the cliff notes... just like something like GoT - it's just so sprawling and there are so many characters, you're better off perusing reference material to get acquainted with the characters. Otherwise, you're inevitably going stumble over just remembering who is who... there are like five principal families, plus another dozen or so characters - some fictional, some historical - who play big roles.

   465. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5707934)
I've heard about people that "learned Italian to read Dante" or such, and I don't really understand how it works.


My brother taught himself German to read Nietzsche. Hey, more power to him, but I don't get it either.
   466. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5707943)
Wish BDC were here - if I recall, he's got abilities somewhat similar to this famous side character.
   467. Morty Causa Posted: July 10, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5708017)
458

Cool. I'll have to keep it in mind when I get back to reading seriously. Right now I'm on a break from serious reading.
   468. Morty Causa Posted: July 10, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5708021)
Yup - exactly what I was told... learning the language - especially at age 20 - is only the first step. Then, you've got to develop the proficiency in period and even dialect, depending. I.e., Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn are written by the same author, but in entirely different vernacular. Imagine learning English as a second language and then attempting Huckleberry Finn.

Huck Finn is an extreme example (and I guess the same could be said of The Catcher in the Rye and others that simulate an idiosyncratic vernacular), but, yeah, how do you do justice to the original in a translation of Huck Finn? What would be the equivalent in that language? And Twain is such an original; in both his dialect and regular style, his character and intelligence pervade the writing. How do you reproduce that effect in a foreign language? I have to believe that the same thing holds with writers in other languages.
   469. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5708026)
Maybe there's a filtering effect. The French Faulkner might not be well known to us, precisely because he's untranslatable. But the French Dickens is easier to handle.
   470. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 06:28 PM (#5708028)
No idea how to find the Gaming thread. Can someone recommend a good cooperative game to play with my 6 year old daughter? I know YR has experience in this realm. Something like an RPG or a Sierra-style adventure that doesn't require fancy graphic card, or lightning fingers, please.
   471. Morty Causa Posted: July 10, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5708029)
469

Really? I didn't know that about Dickens. (I think I had heard that about Faulkner.)
   472. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 10, 2018 at 07:03 PM (#5708039)
1Q84 is my favorite long book. The English translation checks in around 1000 pages. I'm not sure I've read another book that long.

I really liked it but I realize people had pretty varied reactions to the book.
   473. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 10, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5708112)
The longest book I've read is probably one of Michener's. "Space" was my favorite, "Hawaii" and "Caribbean" are also very good.

I love Murakami, but haven't read 1q84. "Hard-boiled Wonderland" is one of my all-time favorites.
   474. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5708150)
My friend enjoyed playing Machinarium with his young daughter a few years ago.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/40700

Here is the gaming thread.
   475. Random Transaction Generator Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5708153)
My hardcover version of Cryptonomicon was over 900 pages, and the softcover version is listed at over 1100 pages.
   476. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5708160)
Really? I didn't know that about Dickens. (I think I had heard that about Faulkner.)


I think you misunderstood my comment. I was only speculating on the French equivalents of Dickens and Faulkner.
   477. PreservedFish Posted: July 10, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5708164)
I never read 1Q84, or Kafka By the Shore. I've read a lot of other Murakami. The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle is really something. But my favorite is probably one of his least weird and Lynchian: Norwegian Wood. I found it extremely evocative and touching. He's one of those writers that keeps returning to the same themes and at some point it got a bit tiring for me.
   478. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: July 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5708171)
Murakami's got a new novel coming out in English later this year, apparently. I've read a number of his novels but not 1Q84 (or, looking at his wiki page, the ones right before and after it). I generally enjoyed them, but yes, the repetitions eventually... not drove me away, exactly, but I just lost some interest.

I have the Gormenghast omnibus, I guess you'd call it, on my shelf; I'd started it years ago, didn't get very far into it, put it down for whatever reason, and never got back to it. Someday, I assume.

I'm surprised no one mentioned Infinite Jest in the long-novels discussion. (Another one that sat on the shelf for ages, though I did eventually read it a few years ago.)

Cryptonomicon and, hell, most of Stephenson's novels, are really long but somehow don't read like it.

I never did read War & Peace-- or any of the Russian novels, now that I think about it (except some Nabokov, if he counts)... I somehow missed them in college (despite the English Lit degree) and never picked them up after. There's just so much out there to read, let alone watch, listen to, etc.
   479. Lassus Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5708254)
Pynchon's Against the Day is listed at 1085 pages.

And that's with a pretty small font & margins.
   480. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5708294)
I don't understand the need for 1000 page books. If you need 1000 pages to do justice to your topic, then, in actuality you're writing 2 or 3 books. Why not just do Vol. 1, 2 and 3?

But, in general, I find long books just include too much unnecessary detail and/or repetition. Biographies are the worst at this. They spend as much time on the boring years of a person's life as they do on the interesting ones. I often find I stop reading biographies once the protagonists major accomplishments are done, e.g. I stopped John Adams sometime during his presidency, I stopped Theodore Rex soon after his presidency ended. You just don't need 300 pages on the coda of a guy's life.
   481. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5708304)
The Power Broker is 1344 pages and I wouldn't cut a word. The making of the Atomic Bomb is near a thousand pages, too, and I flew through that. I love long books. Of course, I love short books, too. And middle length ones are all right, too.
   482. Greg K Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5708305)
But, in general, I find long books just include too much unnecessary detail and/or repetition. Biographies are the worst at this. They spend as much time on the boring years of a person's life as they do on the interesting ones. I often find I stop reading biographies once the protagonists major accomplishments are done, e.g. I stopped John Adams sometime during his presidency, I stopped Theodore Rex soon after his presidency ended. You just don't need 300 pages on the coda of a guy's life.

I've come around to biography (as an approach to history, not so much a genre of book), but this is more or less how I feel. Biography is useful and interesting when it is in service of some larger historical discussion. It can even get you into history in a way nothing else can. But biography that's just focused on telling the complete story of X's life...I find quite dull and flat.
   483. Greg K Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5708307)
On the subject of Long Books, some of my favourite histories are pretty epic tomes. My frequent recommendation, John Adamson's "Noble Revolt", is pretty massive (even though it only covers a few months of time).
   484. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5708313)
Speaking of long books, what the hell is up with the ending of the Cryptonomicon? Is it me, or did it just make no sense? I get the feeling the publisher just told him to wrap this sucker up. I'm still not really sure what happened. They destroy the gold and it has turned into a big media event, somehow?
   485. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5708331)
The Power Broker is 1344 pages and I wouldn't cut a word.

It's a great book, but there was no reason it couldn't have been two volumes. Also, there was plenty of detail that could have been pared. We didn't need to hear about every one of Moses' projects in great detail. Pick a couple of archtypical examples to dive deep, and summarize the rest.
   486. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5708343)
It's a great book, but there was no reason it couldn't have been two volumes.

This just seems arbitrary. Why not just imagine it's two volumes collected together for one low price!

We didn't need to hear about every one of Moses' projects in great detail.

But every one of those projects is a sub-history of that particular neighborhood. The book is as much a history of the city and how it has come to be what it is as it is one of Robert Moses.
   487. PreservedFish Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5708344)
My pet peeve with biographies is the hundreds of pages on childhood, and the suggestion that the inspirational teacher or schoolyard bully or the tragic young mother or whatever has set in motion the forces that will rule a great person's life until the end.
   488. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5708351)
I don't understand the need for 1000 page books. If you need 1000 pages to do justice to your topic, then, in actuality you're writing 2 or 3 books. Why not just do Vol. 1, 2 and 3?


William Manchester's The Glory & the Dream, a history of the U.S. from 1932-1972, was published as two volumes totaling something like 1,200 pages. Somewhere I've got a one-volume TPB edition that I gather used smaller type or something & came in around 880. I read the first edition out of the Magnolia, Ark., library something like 4 times in junior high and high school; I credit/blame it for post-Depression U.S. history being my main focus back when I was on track to become a historian.

(And yes, I know Manchester & whoever was assisting him couldn't see their way to squeezing in a single sentence about Jackie Robinson. Remarkable, & not in a good way.)
   489. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5708354)
I have biographies of Darwin and Dostoevsky sitting on my shelf--talk about long books!--but I just can't bring myself to start them. I need to win the lottery.
   490. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5708356)
This just seems arbitrary. Why not just imagine it's two volumes collected together for one low price!
Or just cut it in half and make your own cover.
   491. PreservedFish Posted: July 11, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5708358)
It seems clear that publishers generally don't often want to bring a book to press if it's less than 300 pages or so. When non-fiction gets expanded from a magazine article, for example, it's usually really easy to identify the chapters that are just padding. I love small books. Some stories can be told in just 100 pages, and if they can be, they should be. If there were a trend of 100-page histories that explored little quirky aspects of historical figures or events or trends, I'd read widely in that genre. But it doesn't really exist. Does a book on the color mauve really need to be 250 pages?

On the other hand, if a subject and the author's scope demands 3000 pages, have at it. One day I'll read Gibbon, I am sure of it!
   492. Morty Causa Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5708385)
Anyone read the three-volume edition of Mark Twain's autobiography? Some 22-2300 pages total. And I understand the print is small and the physical books cumbersome. I love Twain, but can't summon the energy to begin. I'm hoping a reader's edition sans most of the scholarly commentary is in the making.

But, it seems to not be just books that are padded something awful. Even articles and essays in journals and popular magazines seem to go on forever, the point of the things buried somewhere in the underbrush of verbiage.
   493. Omineca Greg Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5708390)
Well, one thing I really hate is when all the appliances in your apartment in The North Sea are some weird European brands and they think the little pictures of little Euromen doing #### makes it obvious what's happening, like this is how you roast a duck turn the dial until the oven turns into a Celtic cross, like WTF? And the nice lady who rented you the apartment is a considerate hostess because she dropped serious poundage on these things but she doesn't know how to work them either.

Choose Brexit!

I made friends with a Shetland cat, and I know you're thinking he was using me because I had Turkish Delight flavoured yogurt and taramasalata but you'd be wrong, he liked me for me! I listened to the lowing of the cows and the bleating of the sheep while a seal frolicked in the solipsistic harbour and jellyfish washed ashore while the terns dove into the calmest sea I've ever seen, and the only reason I'm using such long sentences is that the power source on my laptop dies and I'm third worlding it here on my wife's iPad, and I don't know where all the punctuation is so I have to keep typing no matter what.

Just kidding.

I've had five pints of McEwans Champion, and it is just wonderful malt liquor, whiich to be honest isn't my favourite tipple, but when in Alba...anyway I've become indifferent to both the virtues of clarity and the shame that I would normally feel at giving you such an unedited snapshot into my id (making friends with a Shetland cat?)

Especially when I'm surrounded by tiny ponies.

The tiny ponies really put things in a different perspective.

Get a haircut ponies! Damn hippie ponies...I hate hippies, even if I have to admit the back deck of the ferry seemed empty with nothing but vapers and drunks without the ubiquitous odour of weed that would have been on a BC ferry. Hell, on a 12 hour ferry they would have gone through a couple of bales, in giant braziers like a Grecian ritual, billowing wafts of THC laden smoke reaching ever upwards to the starless maritime sky, a sacrifice to some god or goddess as yet uncodified.

I'm overlooking the harbour from where Norwegians ran the gauntlet of Uboats to sneak supplies to the partisans who fought Quisling, a dual heritage archipelago where any man can be your brother as long as he's not a fascist...

I had eggsalad and watercress sandwiches too.

But the cat liked me for me..
   494. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5708394)
It seems clear that publishers generally don't often want to bring a book to press if it's less than 300 pages or so. When non-fiction gets expanded from a magazine article, for example, it's usually really easy to identify the chapters that are just padding. I love small books. Some stories can be told in just 100 pages, and if they can be, they should be. If there were a trend of 100-page histories that explored little quirky aspects of historical figures or events or trends, I'd read widely in that genre. But it doesn't really exist. Does a book on the color mauve really need to be 250 pages?

Concur strongly.

Animal Farm, and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich immediately spring to mind.
   495. Eric L Posted: July 11, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5708398)
The power broker was a great read, but for the last 300 pages I was crying "enough! I know he's a scumbag!"
   496. Paul D(uda) Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5708905)
Speaking of long books, what the hell is up with the ending of the Cryptonomicon?

That's pretty much just how Stephenson ends his books - he doesn't give you the final chapter, after the confrontation, to figure out what the hell is going on, they just end. This is more notable in The Diamond Age, but I think it's true of a lot of his stuff (I say that not having read anything by him in a long time)
   497. Howie Menckel Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:40 PM (#5708915)
Anyone read the three-volume edition of Mark Twain's autobiography? Some 22-2300 pages total. And I understand the print is small and the physical books cumbersome. I love Twain, but can't summon the energy to begin.

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”

― Mark Twain


(yeah, yeah, Pascal, BFranklin, Locke and others have gotten this credit as well - but work with me, I'm on a roll)
   498. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 11, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5708917)
If there were a trend of 100-page histories that explored little quirky aspects of historical figures or events or trends, I'd read widely in that genre. But it doesn't really exist.


Not quite the same thing, but Rick Geary has done an extensive series of compact crime-centric graphic novels on Sacco & Vanzetti, H.H. Holmes, Lizzie Borden, the Garfield assassination, William Desmond Taylor, the Lindbergh kidnaping, the Hall-Mills murders, the New Orleans Axe Man, Mary Rogers, Billy the Kid, Stanford White, and many many more.
   499. Morty Causa Posted: July 12, 2018 at 12:02 AM (#5708955)
497

To be fair to Twain, a lot of that is the scholars justifying all the hard work they put into the product in the form of commentary, footnotes and the like. That's why I expressed the hope that there would be a common reader friendly edition.
   500. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2018 at 08:55 AM (#5708976)
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