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Wednesday, May 01, 2019

OT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (May 2019)

Milch is here to watch, not interfere. He was a notorious micromanager during Deadwood’s original run, ordering reshoots if he didn’t like the way a scene was playing and dictating new dialogue from the sidelines for the cast to repeat. McShane has spoken of top-to-bottom rewrites being handed to actors just before the cameras rolled, the pages still hot from the copier.

This time, Milch is entrusting the day-to-day execution to his collaborators, among them the director Daniel Minahan, a series veteran, and his co–executive producer Regina Corrado, who started out as a writer on the series in 2005.

But his serenity is also the by-product of a greater urge to let go and accept what life has in store, even if it’s not what he asked for.

It’s here that we come to the matter of David Milch’s Alzheimer’s diagnosis.

Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: May 01, 2019 at 05:48 AM | 969 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: movies, music, off-topic, television, whatever else belongs under the rubric of 'popular culture'

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   601. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:24 AM (#5843722)
I thought the finale was marginally better than most of the final season (which I think was... poor) but still well off the show's peak.

   602. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:25 AM (#5843723)
I’m leaving the country again so won’t be around to comment much

That excuse is less compelling with the existence of the World Wide Tubes. ;-)
   603. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:28 AM (#5843724)
Given time, I suspect it will be clear that the only fundamental problem with season 8 (and, probably, 7, as well) is pacing. Both seasons needed 50-100% more episodes. There just wasn’t time to believably do a lot of what they tried to do.


A lot of truth to this, which also makes the ending hard to evaluate for me. I feel like there's a version of this show where that ending felt earned and magnificent. But last night, it just felt like we were getting the abridged version. And some of the lost details would matter.

The episode was chockablock with the kind of stupid little moments that have marred the last season or two, but they didn't disappoint me as much. I'm mostly sorry to see one of my favorite television shows end.
   604. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5843725)
   605. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:31 AM (#5843727)
Also, in my opinion we can discuss spoilers here. On days when I haven't been able to see the show immediately, I've ignored this place with the assumption that the spoilers would be flying free. Apologies to Primates that are waiting for their local library to get the DVD.
   606. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:48 AM (#5843738)
I thought it was a really good end. Given time, I suspect it will be clear that the only fundamental problem with season 8 (and, probably, 7, as well) is pacing. Both seasons needed 50-100% more episodes. There just wasn’t time to believably do a lot of what they tried to do.

But last night, it just felt like we were getting the abridged version. And some of the lost details would matter.

I do agree with these. I thought that the place where they ended up was good, but it was so rushed. We needed a more gradual turn to evil by Dany. More realistic killing of Rhaegal. More understanding of Jon's final decision.

I think that some of the parts that I thought were bad (Euron, etc.) were really just forced by the short seasons. So I have a lot of nitpicking points, but only one major complaint. For 2 or 3 seasons, Tyrion has been stupid. That's unforgiveable. He doesn't have to be right all the time, but he should be right much more often than not. And he's been wrong all the time. Does it ruin the series for me? No. but it's disappointing.

I like the somewhat ambiguous ending for some characters. Are we to assume that Jon is abandoning the Night's Watch, or that he's just escorting the wildlings back home? I thought the latter, but he does glance wistfully at the door closing. The Arya sailing thing came out of the blue, but they had do something with her character.
   607. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:52 AM (#5843740)
Interesting comments, Davo. I think his argument is too much based on the 'war of the roses' metaphor, and ultimately the political resolution on the show was so awkward and rushed that I almost can't take it seriously. It felt condensed. Also, by this point the major aristocrats of Westeros are either exhausted or totally feckless, and they had literally no say in Dany's fate.
   608. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 10:55 AM (#5843741)
I think that Jon has chosen a life of freedom north of the wall.
   609. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:03 AM (#5843746)
I assumed Jon was becoming a Ranger of the Night's Watch, his initial intent in season 1. I don't think there's any real proof or inference that's he's abandoning that post.


I also agree that all the bad was due to time abridgement. I think that everyone got tired. It was a MASSIVE undertaking.
   610. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:05 AM (#5843747)
We needed a more gradual turn to evil by Dany.

I contend it would have just been telegraphed and dull by being more gradual. But maybe not. Hard to say.
   611. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:09 AM (#5843750)
I assumed Jon was becoming a Ranger of the Night's Watch, his initial intent in season 1. I don't think there's any real proof or inference that's he's abandoning that post.


The Night's Watch had two duties: keep Wildling agitation down, and keep an eye out for immortal enemies. The latter is irrelevant, the former is at least temporarily irrelevant as Jon Snow is a hero to the wildlings. And the Night's Watch doesn't even exist anymore, does it? The castle was occupied by Wildlings when he got there.

Jon Snow became a man behind the wall. His wolf is happy there. It's where he belongs.
   612. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:11 AM (#5843751)
Are we to assume that Jon is abandoning the Night's Watch, or that he's just escorting the wildlings back home? I thought the latter, but he does glance wistfully at the door closing. The Arya sailing thing came out of the blue, but they had do something with her character.
I suspect that the Night's Watch, at least of a generation or two, won't be doing any fighting against the Wildlings, and are more likely to visit them on social calls or trading expeditions or whatever. I think Jon is likely to live north of the Wall as much as he is likely to live in Castle Black, and I suspect no one south of the Wall cares either way. (EDIT: Mostly, the Night's Watch is going to function as a form of internal exile for misfits and certain criminals. I suspect that in the future the Wildlings will keep an eye on the Night's Watch as much as the other way around.)

If this was a blockbuster movie I'd say that the shots of Arya in the end are the more obvious sequel setup ever. Still might be.

The pacing and the "abbreviation" of the last couple of seasons were a big problem. Another one is that this and other sins could've been at least partially covered up by bravura acting. (I believe the technical term for this is The Captain Picard Effect.) Unfortunately this would've mostly meant bravura acting by Clarke & Harrington, who weren't really up to the task and who and have an unfortunate lack of chemistry.
   613. bunyon Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:13 AM (#5843752)
I thought Tyrion made an excellent point that when Dany was slaughtering people by the tens of thousands who were “other” she was a hero. When she did it to King’s Landing, she was a butcher. But it’s been there in plain sight all along. He also was right about himself: he is smart but arrogantly so. His foolishness was of a different sort.

I completely agree that there were problematic details. Rhaegal. And what did Arya do with the horse?

I don’t see Jon disobeying Bran. But with no real enemy left, a Ranger of the Nightwatch is likely to have ample free time.


It’ll be interesting to see if Martin gets to the same ultimate ending. If he does, fans of the books will see it earned.


Lassus, I’m out to be sealed up in a tube for many hours. I assume this thread will have moved on by the time I get back to it. Some folks liked it. Some folks didn’t. No need to discuss it for days on end and I’ll miss a lot of today.
   614. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:16 AM (#5843755)
If I were doing the show over I'd have used the guy who played Beric Dondarrion as a general explainer of stuff that's going on in the world, sort of like the crier in HBO's Rome. Every episode you could have him read a couple of raven scrolls, then walk into a room in the Citadel and tell a bunch of random maesters what's going on in the world, with Jim Broadbent taking copious notes in the corner. Anything to get more of that Beric dude's voice making semi-profound announcements .
   615. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5843757)
It’ll be interesting to see if Martin gets to the same ultimate ending. If he does, fans of the books will see it earned.


I think he will, and that it will not take the form of "Tyrion just thinks of the solution." Bran had a destiny with the throne but HBO didn't get him there convincingly.
   616. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5843767)
If this was a blockbuster movie I'd say that the shots of Arya in the end are the more obvious sequel setup ever. Still might be.


Mentioned in the other place - I thought there was a bit of callback to book lore here.... i.e., the Starks of old had a significant sea presence and one of the old Kings in the North did try to do the sail west as far as west goes. Lost at sea, never heard from again, his heir burns the Stark fleet in grief.

Arya picking up that thread was kind of neat...

They are just little callbacks in the book - and a lot of backfill from those various supplementary materials (Word of Ice and Fire, etc).... but those vague references to "where the maps end" fascinate me. Sothyros.... How far east Essos actually goes... What's west of the Lonely Light, the furthest west of any known lands?
   617. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:38 AM (#5843769)
I contend it would have just been telegraphed and dull by being more gradual. But maybe not. Hard to say.

Well, by "more gradual", I really meant to say "better explained". We needed more scenes where we see her turning. Yes, there were hints, but that's all there were. Then she says, "Fear it is", and burns everybody.
   618. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5843776)
I think it would have been stronger if it weren't a "turn." Instead of bizarrely nuking innocents in rage, she could have made it clear before the battle that they would accept no surrender, for example. I didn't want further foreshadowing of the madness within her, what I wanted was less madness and more cruelty and ambition slowly emerging.

I actually think she was good in the last episode - the rousing speeches to her troops, and her impassioned but clearly wrong-headed speech to Jon were both in keeping with a character that is not actually insane but that has lost all perspective and whose morality has become increasingly warped.
   619. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5843782)
I actually think she was good in the last episode - the rousing speeches to her troops, and her impassioned but clearly wrong-headed speech to Jon were both in keeping with a character that is not actually insane but that has lost all perspective and whose morality has become increasingly warped.

Minor nitpick, but I think that the speech to the troops should have included a line like, "We'll burn down entire cities if we have to". OK, not that ham-handed, but I'm not a writer. Just something to show that she's lost perspective. Because as it was, the speech only showed that she wanted to be the great liberator. No reason to kill her over that.
   620. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5843785)
No but that's why I think the Episode 6 version of Dany was compelling. Because she totally believed that she was in the right. She didn't need to say "I'll burn down more cities," the fact that she clearly had zero scruples about what just happened (and was actually kind of turned on by it), that she was triumphant, is all we needed to know that she would do it again. And when Jon pushed back on her morality, she asserted that she actually gets to define what is "right." She's not evil, she's a megalomaniac.
   621. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:19 PM (#5843786)
Well, she's burned one city (and ordered the execution of surrendered soldiers) without showing any remorse about it, so there's reason to think that she'd do it again. And the line in her speech about liberating Westeros "from Winterfell to Dorne" had to get Jon thinking that his home was likely to be an eventual target. (EDIT: Or what Mr. Fish said.)
   622. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5843790)
I think her characterization in the last episode and in the series as a whole was really well done. The whole arc and development makes sense and is convincing. But the way she goes straight batshit genocidal in Ep 5 was discordant IMO. They could've used a lighter touch.
   623. flournoy Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5843798)
My reading of her character is that she's always been "batshit genocidal." She's just always usually had people there to talk her out of acting on that impulse. Then finally, when she's in her most fragile state of mind, she has nobody left who she will listen to, and she carries out her dreams of fire and blood.
   624. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:51 PM (#5843800)
META META META:

A quote with everything that's wrong with everything, from the forums of the artist formerly known as Previously.tv, formerly known as Television Without Pity, currently known as Primetimer:
I really think the last half hour of episode 4, along with the entirety of 5&6, are the worst 3 and a half hours of continuous television show I've ever watched, in terms of writing, simply because I've never tolerated more than 60 minutes of anything that bad before.
"If only more of the audience were like me."
   625. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 12:54 PM (#5843802)
Sothyros.... How far east Essos actually goes... What's west of the Lonely Light, the furthest west of any known lands?

I've been imagining it's this for years.
   626. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:00 PM (#5843806)
My reading of her character is that she's always been "batshit genocidal." She's just always usually had people there to talk her out of acting on that impulse. Then finally, when she's in her most fragile state of mind, she has nobody left who she will listen to, and she carries out her dreams of fire and blood.

Your arguments for this point have been persuasive and have helped me appreciate this season more than I otherwise would have.
   627. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5843807)
Since I’m back to getting awakened at 1 and 4 AM every night, I’ve picked up another television show to watch. (I know, I know, all television is terrible, but it is a pretty nice thing to exist when you’re exhausted and need to hold a baby in your arms for 30 minutes.)

Anyway. I picked BIG MOUTH. It’s an animated Netflix comedy created by Nick Kroll and with contributions by a ton of his friends from that corner of the comedy world (John Mulaney, Jason Mantzoukas, Jenny Slate, Chelsea Peretti, Paul Scheer....you know, the Comedy Bang Bang world.)

It’s an incredibly incredibly raunchy show about 13-year-old kids who are going through puberty, personified by a Hormone Monster who gives them “advice” in navigating interpersonal relationships. (The Monster’s advice almost always involves ejaculation.)

It is not terrible. The writers’ backgrounds mean a lot of their jokes trend toward the absurd/meta-/anti-humor bent, which is definitely my jam.
   628. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:08 PM (#5843811)
My wife and I were definitely rooting for a white walker or something in the last second.
   629. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:13 PM (#5843813)
Rooting, no; wondering if maybe, yes.


HOWEVER, knowing the hate that was coming in general, I was rooting for Nymeria to be on the deck with Arya just as a total flipping the bird to everyone, because I'm a terrible person.
   630. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:24 PM (#5843816)
@JHill1181
This shot is brilliant and should be shown in any film study class #GameofThrones

@HareMetal1
It took 16 months to get that shot because dragons don't normally do that
   631. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:26 PM (#5843817)
But the way she goes straight batshit genocidal in Ep 5 was discordant IMO. They could've used a lighter touch.
I still fall on PF's side of this. For me, I needed more to believe she would actually do what she did, in the manner she did it. I suspect that point could be the one enduring issue I have with the way the series wrapped up--I generally liked the finale, but it didn't move me on the point because I still didn't see/hear a "why." (And absent a why, they had her go off the deep end too quickly.)
   632. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:30 PM (#5843820)
I'm with flournoy here. If you won't agree, I'll have to convince you with fire and blood.



But I'm just being figurative!

Really.
   633. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:30 PM (#5843821)
I suspect that point could be the one enduring issue I have with the way the series wrapped up--I generally liked the finale, but it didn't move me on the point because I still didn't see/hear a "why." (And absent a why, they had her go off the deep end too quickly.)


She explains that she was trying to show strength because Cersei was trying to manipulate her by using her mercy and humanity against her. That's a believable motivation for killing civilians IMO for a megalomaniac like Dany. However, she could have killed civilians before the surrender! It would have been much more believable. Or she could have wasted like 100,000 people after the surrender in ambiguous circumstances (eg, we don't know if she realizes they had surrendered, we suspect she's killing for pleasure but are not quite sure)

Also flournoy has explained in some other comments how she probably felt like she was robbed of her moment of triumph. She had a blood lust pure and simple.
   634. flournoy Posted: May 20, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5843835)
Your arguments for this point have been persuasive and have helped me appreciate this season more than I otherwise would have.


I'm happy to hear it! Makes me glad to have posted them.


If I have any gripes with the finale, I guess I'd cite Bran's small council. It seems pretty unlikely that the Maesters' conclave would have chosen Samwell, who isn't actually a Maester yet, for the position of Grand Maester. (In the books, this position is chosen by the Maesters, not by the King, and I don't remember if that point was established in the show or not.) But Sam is clearly the best guy for the job, from a viewer's perspective, and Bran knows that, so I'll go with it. Bronn as Master of Coin is weirder. He didn't display any proclivity for financial management (quite the opposite) during his time by Tyrion's side in Seasons 2 and 3. Though not well educated, he's obviously a smart man, so it's not impossible that he's picked up a lot along the way, and will continue to do so. But his appointment seems mostly like a favor to Tyrion, which doesn't seem like Bran's way. That said, the scene was fun, and it's definitely more fun to imagine that small council at work than if they thrown a bunch of non-entities at us.
   635. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5843838)
Also, isn't Sam potentially the head of one of the great noble families now? Also, did he almost discover the germ theory of disease (in addition to, uh, democracy), or did I imagine that?
   636. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5843844)
Also, isn't Sam potentially the head of one of the great noble families now? Also, did he almost discover the germ theory of disease (in addition to, uh, democracy), or did I imagine that?


Well, he always wanted to be a maester.... and now he's grand maester.... so I presume giving the Reach to Bronn was a straight-forward "That's cool. If I get to be grand maester AND keep my gilly on the side, we're good."
   637. PreservedFish Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:15 PM (#5843845)
Oh, I didn't realize that Bronn took his ancestral home.
   638. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5843847)
Also, isn't Sam potentially the head of one of the great noble families now?


Not after he took the black. House Tarly is down to Sam's mother and three sisters.
   639. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5843848)
There was an end-credits easter egg where Nymeria shows up with her pack and tensions mount over who will rule the new Wolf Kingdom, but I presume that was just a setup for one of the various spin-offs HBO has in the works.


My dog says he's down with this.
   640. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:23 PM (#5843849)
Well, I guess he didn't take House Tarly's seat.... but the Tarly's were pledged to the Tyrells and the Tyrells were lord paramount of the Reach.... and Bronn is the new Lord Paramount of the Reach with his seat at High Garden.

   641. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:24 PM (#5843850)
giving the Reach to Bronn was a straight-forward "That's cool. If I get to be grand maester AND keep my gilly on the


Oh, I didn't realize that Bronn took his ancestral home.


Sam was a member of House Tarly - one of the noble houses in the Reach, which is one of the 7 kingdoms, 'ruled' by House Tyrell. IF Sam hadn't of renounced his claim to his house he would have been under Bronn.
   642. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:28 PM (#5843853)
She explains that she was trying to show strength because Cersei was trying to manipulate her by using her mercy and humanity against her. That's a believable motivation for killing civilians IMO for a megalomaniac like Dany. However, she could have killed civilians before the surrender! It would have been much more believable. Or she could have wasted like 100,000 people after the surrender in ambiguous circumstances (eg, we don't know if she realizes they had surrendered, we suspect she's killing for pleasure but are not quite sure)
Yep, I was paying close attention to that justification but it simply didn't make sense. If the reason is to avoid being hamstrung by Cersei's use of human shields, you do that beforehand, not after just for the hell of it.

Also flournoy has explained in some other comments how she probably felt like she was robbed of her moment of triumph. She had a blood lust pure and simple.
I mostly agree with that, though I think she felt like she was robbed of her moment of revenge mostly. Had she flown straight at the keep and incinerated Cersei even after the bells tolled, I have no issue.
   643. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:44 PM (#5843856)
Sam was a member of House Tarly - one of the noble houses in the Reach, which is one of the 7 kingdoms, 'ruled' by House Tyrell. IF Sam hadn't of renounced his claim to his house he would have been under Bronn.


There was an awful lot of "good enough" going on... Let's review.

Dorne - So, we just tossed a guy in Dorne garb into the mix. He speaks for Dorne and Dorne is good with Bran the Broken. This is odd to me, as Dorne was historically the "problem child" kingdom. Never actually conquered but married into the kingdoms... they hold a grudge.... and now Bran's half-brother has killed yet another Targyrean ruler and they're just cool with this? Whatever. Fine.

The Vale of Arryn - I guess Royce is now acting as regent for Robin... though, Robin looked like he's old enough to not need a regent. Whatever. Wimpy boy and Lord HuffnPuff work it out, I guess.

Riverlands - Edmure the loser gets his seat back, I guess. His attempt at what if I became king... gets shot down... as it should. Shuttup and be happy you still count, Edmure.

Stormlands - Thanks for the seat, Dany... and turns out you didn't get my undying loyalty. I'm cool with Bran because hey, I'm still a great lord and these Starks strike me as good eggs. Stormlands be cool. I guess I need to start learning my history about how Dorne is constantly trying to steal my ####?

The Reach - Bronn's all good. The Reach is his, he's got the plumbest of the great houses. All debts are settled. And all of the Tyrell bannerman who used to consider the Tyrell's upjumped stewards are probably dead anyway.

Iron Islands - They're not even technically one of the "7" kingdoms... The Billy Preston of 'Great Houses'. So, you know... I guess Yarra/Asha is satisfied not being ignored. Plus, that reaving stuff/deals with Dany is now null and void right? Salt wives are cool again? Let's just say yes.

Westerlands - ????? Not addressed. Is Tyrion Warden of the West too? Who gets the Westerlands? The mines are dry, but it's a pretty neat castle and all.

The North is now separate...

Who were those other two "great lords" at the roundtable? I presume maybe one represented the Westerlands...
   644. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5843861)
From a profile of actress Sarah Goldberg, who plays Sally Reed on Barry:

The role can still surprise her. Goldberg did not anticipate that Sally would turn down the TV job: “I can’t imagine she’s having an easy time paying her rent. But then I thought, ‘O.K., I think this is where the evolution begins with her.’”

That plot point made the actress think about an incident several years ago, in which she turned down a role because it seemed like “soft porn.”

“I was going in for a casting director I really like, but the scene was like—‘she rides the horse bareback, she takes his #### in her hand,’” Goldberg recalled.

“I was like, ‘what the #### is this?’” she said. “Anyway, it was Game of Thrones.”
   645. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5843867)
“I was going in for a casting director I really like, but the scene was like—‘she rides the horse bareback, she takes his #### in her hand,’” Goldberg recalled.
“I was like, ‘what the #### is this?’” she said. “Anyway, it was Game of Thrones.”


The British actress - Gemma Whelan - who received that gig tells the story of that casting - in the show it ended up reversed, to mock the male character and set her as the badass. Worked very well.
   646. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5843868)
Yep, I was paying close attention to that justification but it simply didn't make sense. If the reason is to avoid being hamstrung by Cersei's use of human shields, you do that beforehand, not after just for the hell of it.

I mean... I just don't think fictional characters should be expected to react to events as if they have no emotion or faults or frailty, which is not how actual humans behave.


Edmure

Tobias Menzies is a great actor, and he both deserved and nailed that moment.
   647. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:18 PM (#5843869)
Quentin Tarantino Writes Open Letter Asking Cannes Not to Reveal ‘Once Upon a Time in Hollywood’ Spoilers
Tarantino published an open letter on the film’s official social media pages asking Cannes audience members not to spoil the movie in advance.

“I love cinema. You love cinema. It’s the journey of discovering a story for the first time,” Tarantino wrote. “I’m thrilled to be here in Cannes to share ‘Once Upon a Time…In Hollywood’ with the festival audience. The cast and crew have worked so hard to create something original, and I only ask that everyone avoids revealing anything that would prevent later audiences from experiencing the film in the same way.”
   648. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5843871)
TradCath Twitter is having some fun:

@Piagnone (Woke Space Jesus)
Seems like the dragon show has concluded in a system being established where a celibate overlord is elected by his peers to rule for life, with lots of people being absolutely furious about this on the internet...Roman catholic church ahead of the curve once again baby
   649. Master of the Horse Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:24 PM (#5843874)
What I find hilarious about GOT is that so many people I hear discussing the show will acknowledge they don't know a character's name or role or why something happened like multiple times in one or more conversations. And yet remain entertained.
   650. Master of the Horse Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5843875)
648--that's great
   651. Srul Itza Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5843885)
For 2 or 3 seasons, Tyrion has been stupid


I wonder whether it was in part that he was out of his depth.

He understood the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, but was he really a mastermind to lead an invasion?

His great military moment, the battle of Black Water Bay, was a holding action against an attack. And it actually failed. I don't know that people were aware that Tywin and the Lannister/Tyrell forces were about to relieve the City. Cersei certainly didn't, as she was about to poison her son and possibly herself.

Then in Mereen, the City was attacked and he got bailed out by Dany and Drogon and the Dothraki.

Tyrion was a clever man, and he did make some good moves, and was able to talk Dany off the ledge a few times, but he was no Tywin in terms of grand strategy.
   652. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5843889)
Who were those other two "great lords" at the roundtable? I presume maybe one represented the Westerlands...

I haven’t been able to figure that out either. I assume Tyrion is heir to House Lannister now, although at that point he was in chains. And Bronn wasn’t there, either, so no Reach.
   653. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:46 PM (#5843890)
re: #651 - I do wonder how all of that will go in the books. As a reminder, book Tyrion has not yet met book Daenerys.


His great military moment, the battle of Black Water Bay, was a holding action against an attack. And it actually failed. I don't know that people were aware that Tywin and the Lannister/Tyrell forces were about to relieve the City. Cersei certainly didn't, as she was about to poison her son and possibly herself.

I was pretty sure the (television) implication was that the battle was actually nearly over when Tywin galloped in AS IF he had saved the day, when he really hadn't. I could be wrong, I suppose.
   654. Srul Itza Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:56 PM (#5843895)
I was pretty sure the (television) implication was that the battle was actually nearly over when Tywin galloped in AS IF he had saved the day, when he really hadn't.


I think you are wrong. Tyrion was down, no one was leading the defenders, Stannis and his men had scaled the walls and were entering the City, when the relief forces arrived, and only then did they withdraw.

ETA: Tyrion led the forces through a back gate, and stopped one group of Stannis' men from breaching the Mud Gate temporarily. Stannis was already over the wall via ladders at another point, slaughtering defenders. Then Tyrion looks around and sees a huge host of Stannis's men, outnumbering his, charging out of the darkness, and uttered those immmortal words, "Oh Fuck Me." That leads to the scrum where he is wounded and Pod saves him, and as he is blacking out, Tywin and Loras ride in and take Stannis's men from the rear. It is at this point, as the whole Tyrrel army and Lannister reinforcements arrive, that Stannis retreats.
   655. Mike A Posted: May 20, 2019 at 03:59 PM (#5843899)
Am I the only person in the world who has read the GOT books but hasn't watched the show? I guess I wanted to see how the books played out first, but who knows if they'll even happen at this point.

I gave up on avoiding spoilers long ago, though. The (TV) ending doesn't seem that bad to me, but it's certainly getting torn apart everywhere. Reminds me of The Last Jedi, people are just crazy over-the-top about these things. Why, I have no idea.

To that note, 560 parents named their baby girls 'Khaleesi' in 2018. Whoops?
   656. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:01 PM (#5843903)
I think you are wrong. Tyrion was down, no one was leading the defenders, Stannis and his men had scaled the walls and were entering the City, when the relief forces arrived, and only then did they withdraw.

Maybe, it was a while ago. I would like to revisit, though. I mean, for sure, Cersei literally thought that Tywin's entrance was an attack, but it wasn't shown to be read as if he defeated people on the way into the throne room.

EDIT: Reading your edit, I remember that, I just never read it as "DONE, NO HOPE" when Tywin arrived. -shrug- I'm probably biased - and he got NO credit at all.
   657. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:07 PM (#5843909)
The (TV) ending doesn't seem that bad to me, but it's certainly getting torn apart everywhere.

Watch, as I miserably turn into - BARF - SBB:

It does seem as if the internet has turned art and entertainment into a sporting event.
   658. flournoy Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:10 PM (#5843911)
The (TV) ending doesn't seem that bad to me, but it's certainly getting torn apart everywhere.


It's obviously still a little too fresh to judge fully, but I loved Season 8 in its entirety. (I have read the books, if that is relevant.) Anecdotally, it seems to me that the people who didn't like it really wanted it to go in a different direction and were setting themselves up for disappointment. Anyone here can speak for themselves, though, of course.
   659. Panik on the streets of Flushing! (Trout! Trout!) Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:12 PM (#5843914)
Am I the only person in the world who has read the GOT books but hasn't watched the show? I guess I wanted to see how the books played out first, but who knows if they'll even happen at this point.


I also have read the books but not seen an episode. I have season 1 on DVD but haven't cracked it open yet. I agree that they will not be finished before Martin passes it off to someone else, or dies.
   660. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5843918)
I wonder whether it was in part that he was out of his depth.

He understood the politics of the Seven Kingdoms, but was he really a mastermind to lead an invasion?


Yeah, but it's one thing for him to be inexperienced, it's another thing for him to wrong about everything. And I mean every single thing. It just frustrated me.
   661. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:22 PM (#5843920)
It's obviously still a little too fresh to judge fully, but I loved Season 8 in its entirety. (I have read the books, if that is relevant.) Anecdotally, it seems to me that the people who didn't like it really wanted it to go in a different direction and were setting themselves up for disappointment. Anyone here can speak for themselves, though, of course.


My griefs and beefs with 8 were a lot less about wanting certain things to happen than they are with them seeming to slapdash some things together in ways that didn't sell real well.

I didn't ultimately care who won, who died, etc - sure, I have favorites - but whatever...

Under the covers, I think there were some places where Season 8 was clearly missing some characters from the broader cast who kept the intrigue firing on all cylinders.... Losing Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns hurt the show overall. It made the surviving characters work less well without them around to help drive the show. Ignoring Cersei and Kings Landing for most of season 8 likewise hurt. For all the cinematic things they did well, I feel they wasted too much screentime on slow, long walks that could have been spent on characters conversing.

Rewatching some prior season episodes - I'm remembering now how many great episodes weren't 100% great, but moved to so many places to stitch in so many storylines, you always had something.

The real oddity is that from seasons 1 through 6 - when the show required a single location (Blackwater, the battle of Castle Black) - they pulled it off spectacularly. 7 & 8? Well, it was a lot of single location eps (even almost entirely single location eps).... and it was very uneven.
   662. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5843921)
His great military moment, the battle of Black Water Bay, was a holding action against an attack. And it actually failed.

Tyrion's great moment was developing the defense. Specifically the wildfire. If he's not there, the city gets overrun very quickly. Yes, he tried to rally the troops to fight and that didn't go all that well, but if we're talking about his mind here, he had a great idea/plan and he saved the city.
   663. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:28 PM (#5843924)
Anecdotally, it seems to me that the people who didn't like it really wanted it to go in a different direction and were setting themselves up for disappointment. Anyone here can speak for themselves, though, of course.

I think I said this a few pages ago. There are things that I wanted to happen differently (Jamie, etc.), but that's not what I didn't like about this season.

First, it was rushed. Things happened too quickly. We've gone over a lot of that.

Second, there is some bad writing. Euron is the prime example. His fleet comes out of nowhere, he shoots a dragon from a moving boat with deadly accuracy, he laughs like a cartoon character, he miraculously survives Drogon's attack, he gets washed ashore at the exact moment Jamie's entering the keep. It's just your typical TV/Movie writing and it's a big letdown. The big bad survives when his entire fleet doesn't and confronts the hero* so that we can have a fight to the death.

*Jamie isn't exactly a hero at this point, but you get the idea.
   664. Lassus Posted: May 20, 2019 at 04:35 PM (#5843926)
Losing Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns hurt the show overall.

Maybe Olenna should have shivved Jaime and ridden to safety! Or something.
   665. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: May 20, 2019 at 05:03 PM (#5843944)
I mean... I just don't think fictional characters should be expected to react to events as if they have no emotion or faults or frailty, which is not how actual humans behave.
...which is not in any way what I argued. In my very next sentence, in fact, I noted that she was clearly driven by revenge and I would have had no issue if she had given in to that exact impulse at that time.

Anecdotally, it seems to me that the people who didn't like it really wanted it to go in a different direction and were setting themselves up for disappointment.
I can't speak to who is included in your collection of anecdotes, but everyone I know across three unconnected groups of people (including both book readers and non book readers) has expressed no significant issue with the broad strokes of what happened, rather with *how* and especially *how fast* it happened. So not the direction the story ultimately took, but how they arrived there. YMMV.
   666. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 05:09 PM (#5843952)
@vandroidhelsing
I know Westeros is not actually medieval Europe but this is such a twenty-first century idea of medieval book design that I want throw a tv through a window. And I don’t have a tv. (thread with many examples) (...)

@vandroidhelsing
To be clear, the failure here is not exactly “insufficient medievalism,” (though I think if the show’s gonna draw from medieval history and art, why not go for it)

It’s lack of care and interest in a prop.
It could have been a powerful visual, iconic for the right reasons
   667. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 20, 2019 at 05:18 PM (#5843957)
I can't speak to who is included in your collection of anecdotes, but everyone I know across three unconnected groups of people (including both book readers and non book readers) has expressed no significant issue with the broad strokes of what happened, rather with *how* and especially *how fast* it happened. So not the direction the story ultimately took, but how they arrived there.
This is my feeling. I think that the broad plot outline that GRRM presumably gave to the HBO people held up, it's just that the HBO people didn't fill in the details as well as one might have wished. And at least some of this is because they chose spectacle (and thus shorter seasons due to more the complicated productions) over other storytelling methods.
   668. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 20, 2019 at 06:20 PM (#5843984)
@vornietom
Very fun Bran theory from my sister

(Just posting this for you guys, I don’t even know what the 3-eyed raven is.)
   669. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 20, 2019 at 06:28 PM (#5843991)
Well, hundreds not thousands.... but I also think it involves some merging with a weirwood tree to get that far. I suppose now that the throne room has sun roof, the stage is actually set for the king of the 6 kingdoms to be a tree in the throne room.

Probably one of the spin-offs.... People come to ask the tree what its decision is and it just keeps saying "the ban on axes shall remain in effect".
   670. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 07:44 PM (#5844008)
Well, hundreds not thousands.... but I also think it involves some merging with a weirwood tree to get that far.

That's what I was thinking as well. The previous three eyed raven was about 150, I think. We don't know why he had to pass the mantle on to Bran, though. Was he dying? Was he just incapable of stopping the Night King?

Along these lines, Bran not only has to rule the six kingdoms, but at some point he's going to need to find and train the next three eyed raven.
   671. Greg Pope Posted: May 20, 2019 at 07:45 PM (#5844009)
I think that the broad plot outline that GRRM presumably gave to the HBO people held up, it's just that the HBO people didn't fill in the details as well as one might have wished. And at least some of this is because they chose spectacle (and thus shorter seasons due to more the complicated productions) over other storytelling methods.

This is a concise description of how I feel. You can tell when the writers left the books behind.
   672. Pirate Joe Posted: May 20, 2019 at 09:31 PM (#5844018)
What I find hilarious about GOT is that so many people I hear discussing the show will acknowledge they don't know a character's name or role or why something happened like multiple times in one or more conversations. And yet remain entertained.


My boss and his wife started binging on the show a month or so ago. Earlier today he told me that they are near the end of season five. So they've watched between 45 and 50 episodes over the last 6 - 8 weeks, and yet he has no idea what any of the characters names are, outside of a few of the main characters. We were talking about the Red Wedding episode today and he couldn't even remember Catelyn Stark, let alone the name of her sister Lysa who came up later in the conversation.

   673. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: May 21, 2019 at 03:35 AM (#5844113)
Perhaps a result of a more online society is that media itself doesn't have to reiterate its basic concepts as much. I was thinking earlier (and apologies for more MCU, but it seems like the best example) that character aliases like 'War Machine' and 'Scarlet Witch' are easily identified by a very large number of fans, but . . . do those names actually get used often in the movies? Does dialogue refer to them that way frequently? Of course, if you're not part of the wider online discussion and dissection, that doesn't help you much.
   674. Greg Pope Posted: May 21, 2019 at 08:33 AM (#5844117)
I was thinking earlier (and apologies for more MCU, but it seems like the best example) that character aliases like 'War Machine' and 'Scarlet Witch' are easily identified by a very large number of fans, but . . . do those names actually get used often in the movies?

I'm sure the answer is on line somewhere, but I don't recall any use of "Scarlet Witch", "Hawkeye", or "Black Widow". "War Machine" was used, I'm pretty sure, but only at the beginning of his character arc.

For the MCU specifically, I think that's a function of the decision to not use secret identities. Which I think was a great decision. In a comic book they have to fill out years and years of monthly plots, but in the movies they can skip right over it. But it does mean that the characters can just naturally use their own names.
   675. Greg Pope Posted: May 21, 2019 at 08:41 AM (#5844119)
My boss and his wife started binging on the show a month or so ago. Earlier today he told me that they are near the end of season five. So they've watched between 45 and 50 episodes over the last 6 - 8 weeks, and yet he has no idea what any of the characters names are, outside of a few of the main characters.

My theory is that binge watching causes this. Although I do have GOT friends who've watch the whole series in real time and still don't know. But in general, when you spend many consecutive weeks watching characters, their names get stamped in your mind. When you watch a lot over a short period, I think it just doesn't go to your long term memory. My wife and I binge watched both seasons of 'The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel'. We loved it and are waiting for season 3. But I was talking about it with someone a week or so ago and I could not remember the first names of any characters. None of them.

Binge watching basically turns TV shows into movies. When people talk about movies that they've seen, they almost always reference the actors' names, in my experience. Some of that is because sometimes the person you're talking to hasn't seen the movie, so it's the only reference point. But, for example, I watched the Jennifer Lopez movie about her getting a corporate job when it was out. I can tell you that Jennifer Lopez was in it, and so was Leah Remini and Vanessa Hudgens. Treat Williams and the guy from This Is Us were in it too. I couldn't tell you any character names if you gave me a hundred guesses. I think that's what happens when you binge watch.

Now, GOT has 70-plus episodes, but some characters died early. Some characters aren't on screen for long stretches. I think it's understandable.
   676. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2019 at 08:58 AM (#5844121)
What I find hilarious about GOT is that so many people I hear discussing the show will acknowledge they don't know a character's name or role or why something happened like multiple times in one or more conversations. And yet remain entertained.


I get it - they're just in for a swords and sorcery romp. There are probably millions of people like this.

And I do wonder if the writers consciously chose to write for these sorts, the casual fans. Would help explain the decision to "chose spectacle over other storytelling methods." Perhaps there was even a directive from HBO, if execs perceived that these fans were more likely to purchase new subscriptions than the die-hard Thronesies.
   677. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 21, 2019 at 08:59 AM (#5844122)
GoT throws a lot of characters at you at once, with most of them speaking in accents, plus plenty of them have titles sometimes/sometimes not, AND diminutive(s) AND nickname(s).... that's beyond the complete fantasy location names AND lots of allusions to dead characters who never appear in the show (or do so only in flashbacks).

I mean, if you come in cold - you've got Eddard Stark... who goes by Ned... or Lord Stark.... Lord of Winterfell... which also means he's Warden of the North... and he eventually becomes Hand of the King.

I did come in cold and I gave upon the show after the first two episodes because it punishes you if you're multitasking or not paying complete attention, so I got tired of "who the #### is that and what he run again?" It was late in season 1 when I devoted a catch-up marathon (and then became a book reader after season 1).
   678. manchestermets Posted: May 21, 2019 at 09:00 AM (#5844123)
Am I the only person in the world who has read the GOT books but hasn't watched the show? I guess I wanted to see how the books played out first, but who knows if they'll even happen at this point.


Someone in my office is a book reader who's waiting for all the books, which is a pain because it stops the rest of us from talking about the show.

We were talking about the Red Wedding episode today and he couldn't even remember Catelyn Stark, let alone the name of her sister Lysa who came up later in the conversation.


I think I've mentioned it here before, but there's a British gameshow called Pointless that is effectively reverse Family Feud - you have to find the correct answers that the fewest, or ideally no people said. "We gave a hundred people a hundred seconds to name as many [category] as they could" and everyone has to give an example of [category]. The jackpot round has three such questions on a common theme, with the contestants having three chances to give a correct answer nobody said. When the theme was Game of Thrones one of the categories was characters who had appeared in at least five episodes, so during the minute's thinking time I was saying to myself things like "Daario Naharis, is that obscure enough?" and then it turned out that Catelyn Stark was a winning answer, along with all but about ten others.


Who were those other two "great lords" at the roundtable?


The one sitting between Sam and Edmure looked a bit like the Blackfish, but since he didn't speak then I don't suppose he had come back from the dead. Sansa telling Edmure to shut up was the best bit of the episode.

Are the Dothraki just nomading their way round the Riverlands now then? It seems unlikely they'd have gone off with the Unsullied.
   679. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 21, 2019 at 09:06 AM (#5844124)
Are the Dothraki just nomading their way round the Riverlands now then? It seems unlikely they'd have gone off with the Unsullied.


They were loading onto the ships... I presume they went back to Essos.
   680. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2019 at 09:08 AM (#5844125)
I think the Dothraki were spotted boarding boats in the background. I presume they want to go back to the Dothraki Steppe or wherever they're from. Glad to see that the entire culture wasn't eliminated in the zombie charge, although I'm not quite sure how. Did they get reinforcements?
   681. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 21, 2019 at 09:09 AM (#5844126)
Someone in my office is a book reader who's waiting for all the books, which is a pain because it stops the rest of us from talking about the show.


This sounds like a recipe for a life filled with frustration and a slow, grinding disappointment.
   682. Davo Has Marianne Mindset Posted: May 21, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5844132)
And I do wonder if the writers consciously chose to write for these sorts, the casual fans. Would help explain the decision to "chose spectacle over other storytelling methods."

Golden Age Of Television, baby!
   683. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2019 at 09:48 AM (#5844136)
Golden Age Of Television, baby!


Not sure what this snark is for. It is the Golden Age of Television. Something like Thrones would never have been attempted a couple decades ago, to say nothing of the days when there were only like 4 channels. But when niche entertainment succeeds and has more broad appeal than initially envisioned, there's always a temptation to broaden the appeal even further to try and go truly mainstream.
   684. Zonk, your King of All that Is Real Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5844143)
Not sure what this snark is for. It is the Golden Age of Television. Something like Thrones would never have been attempted a couple decades ago, to say nothing of the days when there were only like 4 channels. But when niche entertainment succeeds and has more broad appeal than initially envisioned, there's always a temptation to broaden the appeal even further to try and go truly mainstream.


I wholly agree. It's a spectacular golden age from all angles - there's absolutely bloat and plenty of garbage, thanks to the blizzard of delivery channels, but it's also created space for some great stuff.

Even my disappointment with late seasons - there's just no denying GoT was often blockbuster movie quality from all kinds of angles. When it worked perfectly, you had amazing acting, amazing storytelling, AND amazing cinematography. Even at it's low point, you could still count on one of those cylinders firing.

Beyond the huge production events like GoT - there's also plenty of great stuff that doesn't lean on effects (Veep was great, might be my #1 comedy of all-time).

   685. Lassus Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5844146)
Glad to see that the entire culture wasn't eliminated in the zombie charge, although I'm not quite sure how. Did they get reinforcements?

I was just assuming that wasn't the full force of them going out there into the dark.


"Daario Naharis, is that obscure enough?"

I guess it was good that they didn't just fanservice him back in, although I thought it was possible.

I was a little surprised Meera Reed never re-appeared. There really was almost no point at all to her brother in the show.
   686. Lassus Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5844147)
Not sure what this snark is for.

Unwavering sense of superiority.
   687. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:21 AM (#5844148)
I was just assuming that wasn't the full force of them going out there into the dark.

Were the others just hanging out inside Winterfell with their horses? It got to a point where there were zero living soldiers outside the walls.
   688. Greg Pope Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:22 AM (#5844149)
Who were those other two "great lords" at the roundtable?

The one sitting between Sam and Edmure looked a bit like the Blackfish, but since he didn't speak then I don't suppose he had come back from the dead.

I googled this and apparently they were unnamed. People are assuming that they're lords of some houses that we just have never seen. Which is fine, in my opinion. There's no in-universe reason for them to do introductions since Tyrion probably knows who they all are.
   689. Lassus Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:36 AM (#5844152)
Were the others just hanging out inside Winterfell with their horses?

I'm pretty sure they were hanging out in WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP, that's where.
   690. PreservedFish Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5844154)
Shhh. Let people [criticize] things.
   691. formerly dp Posted: May 21, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5844158)
So much of my beef with this season is based around the way they just didn't address a lot of practicalities that were huge drivers of plot points in earlier seasons, and part of what made the show interesting for the way it forced the audience to confront the materiality of feudal life & conflict (at least a bit).

Fwiw, I'm in the "finale was absolute trash after Jon stabbed Dany" camp.
   692. Lassus Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:08 AM (#5844163)
I want to make it clear that I do have problems with plenty of the writing post-book. As mentioned, anything involving Euron, Arya's yell as she jumped at the Night King, anything happening within Dorne, most of the Daenerys Abroad stories. And as I've admitted and been annoyed with myself, the job just got to the people in charge and they were exhausted and wanted it over. Which was not entirely professional.

I can have a problem with all of that and still find the 96% of the criticism and overall negative reaction I've read of the final season to be entitled, mob-driven, and more subjective than critical.
   693. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5844164)
I never ever want to talk about GoT again. Even though I liked, loved a bunch of Season 8.

Here's another question for the board ... covers that are better than the original.

[edit] Can be movies as well.

[edit2] All Along The Watchtower, Turn The Page, Waltzing Madila
   694. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5844165)
It does seem as if the internet has turned art and entertainment into a sporting event.

I think there's a lot of truth to this.
   695. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5844172)
Here's another question for the board ... covers that are better than the original.

[edit] Can be movies as well.

[edit2] All Along The Watchtower, Turn The Page, Waltzing Madila


Girl, You'll be a Woman soon
Knocking on Heaven's door

What is a cover in the context of a movie? Remake?
   696. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:23 AM (#5844174)
Knocking on Heaven's door


Which one?
   697. Baldrick Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5844176)
Here's another question for the board ... covers that are better than the original.

Can't Take My Eyes Off of You - Lauryn Hill
Me and Bobby McGee - Janis Joplin
Respect - Aretha Franklin
The Band Played Waltzing Matilda - The Pogues
The Beatles have lots of songs that are probably better than their (very good) originals, but YMMV
100,000 Fireflies - Superchunk
Cortez the Killer - Built to Spill
   698. Wayne Newton's pet monkey (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5844178)
covers that are better than the original.


The Dead Boys' cover of Tell Me leaves the Stones' original in the dust. I didn't hear the latter till several years after encountering the former, & I was taken aback at how pallid it was.

I never liked Elvis' Burning Love, but the Meat Purveyors' version turns it into an irresistibly bittersweet near-dirge.

The Band's It Makes No Difference is a very nice song. The Mekons' cover borders on soul-crushing.
   699. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5844180)

Which one?


Both. Clapton is better than Dylan, and GNR is better than Clapton.
   700. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: May 21, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5844181)
And how well I remember that terrible day, how our blood stained the sand and the water
And of how in that hell that they called Suvla Bay, we were butchered like lambs at the slaughter

Johnny Turk he was waiting, he'd primed himself well, he showered us with bullets
And he rained us with shell, and in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all straight to hell
Nearly blew us right back to Australia

But the band played Waltzing Matilda, when we stopped to bury our slain
We buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs, then we started all over again


[edit] That's not even the the best stanzas of the damn song. ####.

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